Orlen S.A. (PKN) Q4 FY2025 Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Good morning, everyone. Please welcome to the presentation of Q4 of 2025 financial and operating results of Orlen Group. We are sitting here in Warsaw in Orlen headquarters together with Slawomir Jedrzejczyk, company's CFO; Konrad Wlodarczyk, IR team; Marcin Piechota, IR team; Daniel Obajtek, Head of Controlling. My name is Jakub Frejlich, I'm heading Investor Relations. We're going to have a presentation that will be followed with the Q&A session. Without further ado, I will now hand over to Slawomir, please. The floor is yours.

Thank you, Jakub. Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. It's my pleasure, as always, to present you fourth quarter Orlen financial results. And I will start by saying that it was absolutely a very good quarter for us and the whole year 2025 was very good. So if you look into Slide #2, where we present the main financial indicators, we delivered EBITDA LIFO in the fourth quarter of PLN 12.2 billion and altogether, almost PLN 42 billion for the full '25 year. And I would just add one remark if we assume the same macro conditions for the past years as we were operating in 2025, definitely, that was the record high year for Orlen. We delivered very robust cash flow from operations, PLN 12.9 billion in the fourth quarter, altogether PLN 47.4 billion. We continue our CapEx program, so PLN 11.5 billion in the fourth quarter, altogether PLN 32.6 billion for the full year. And what's very important, our net debt position is very, very strong, namely is negative, meaning cash flow positive of - I mean, cash position of PLN 1.4 billion. So now let's move to Slide #3, where we present operating parameters. As you know, we operate in Upstream & Supply Downstream, Energy, Consumer & Products. So let's start with Upstream & Supply. The market environment was unfavorable for us, meaning crude oil price and gas price was lower in the fourth quarter as compared to last year. However, we continue production of crude oil and gas at the same level roughly but we increased gas share of 1 percentage point. And what's very important, we increased our sale of gas of 44%. Basically, half of this increase is better volumes on Polish market due to the weather conditions. And the second half is seizing opportunities on German market by our trading branch in Germany. Basically, the spread were favorable. So we took this opportunity to increase the sale. If we move to Downstream, Downstream environment was favorable. As we know, refining margin and differential altogether almost doubled as compared to last year. Petchem a little bit better. It's, of course, too early to say that the market environment in petchem is going to be better. However, this is a positive signal, I believe. Altogether, we have crude oil throughput of 96% utilization. So it's very good, 100% in our Polish refineries. And this led to increase in the wholesale fuel increase of 5% year-on-year. Slight decrease in petrochemical but this is, as we all know, due to the situation in petchem environment. As regards Energy, from the market environment perspective, energy prices increased. And what's very important, we increased electricity generation, heat generation and electricity distribution and gas distribution. As you can see, effectively 18%, 2%, 5% and 3%. So those are very good results from energy sector. As regards Consumer & Products, market environment from the consumption point of view was favorable for us. Basically, consumption increased in gasoline, diesel as well as electricity and gas. So as a result retail gas sales by 4% and retail electricity sales by 8%. So now let's move to Slide #4, where we present EBITDA delivered by each segment. So this slide absolutely proves and our results in the fourth quarter and the full year '25 proved that we built a very diversified operating model that gives us a resilience in this challenging macro environment. So starting from the fourth quarter, upstream and supply, PLN 4.2 billion. That's lower than last year. However, last year was in much better macro environment with much higher gas prices and crude oil prices. So you may say that this year -- this quarter, fourth quarter this year is a kind of normalized EBITDA. In Downstream increased by PLN 2.7 billion. So we achieved PLN 3.7 billion in the fourth quarter. This is a result of more volumes, as I described earlier, and better refining margins. In Energy, slight increase of PLN 100 million. That was basically due to the higher distribution EBITDA and the production -- higher production was offset by higher CO2 costs. So as a result, PLN 100 million increase. As regards Consumer & Products, PLN 1.2 billion delivered in the fourth quarter. This is a kind of normalized level because last year, it was negative PLN 200 million but that was due to worse market environment. And at the same time, there was a one-off like purchase price allocation of -- that decreased the result last year. But what was very important, if we look into the full year, on the right-hand side, Upstream & Supply delivered PLN 16.2 billion, so PLN 2.3 billion less than last year as we described, lower crude oil and gas prices. Downstream increased to PLN 9.5 billion due to refining margins and volumes and Energy increased by PLN 1.6 billion to PLN 12.5 billion and Consumer & Products delivered PLN 6 billion. So altogether, very diversified and really resilient business model. If we move to Slide #5, when we present cash flow from -- cash flow for 2025, that was absolutely great year for us. We delivered PLN 47.4 billion operating cash flow. You may, of course, say that a few billion Polish zlotys out of -- it was a kind of extra money we generated due to the fact that crude oil prices and gas prices dropped but nonetheless PLN 47.4 billion, and we spent this money for investment programs, PLN 32.5 billion. We paid, as we remember, PLN 6 per share dividend, which was PLN 7 billion. So altogether, we managed to decrease net debt by PLN 8.5 billion. So as I said at the beginning, our net cash position is PLN 1.4 billion at the end of '25. What's very important for us, we keep investment-grade ratings, Moody's A3 stable outlook and Fitch ratings, BBB+ stable outlook. If you look into Slide #6, we not only generate very good cash flow but of course, we have very strong balance sheet and diversified sources of financing. So we are very positive as regards looking ahead because we know that we have quite significant investment program in place. However, our balance sheet is really strong. We present here diversified sources of financing. So basically, we have credit and loans but we have all different kind of bonds as well, euro, green, euro, U.S. and corporate bonds. And so PLN 25.1 billion gross debt at the end of '25. If we move to CapEx, Slide #7. So here, we present our realization from '25 as compared to plan '25, and I will start with that. Maintenance was rationalized, I would say, so PLN 400 million less. In upstream and supply, we communicated earlier that we moved 2 gas ships to '26. So that was roughly PLN 1.2 billion, and we stopped some upstream projects in Norway and Poland. So as a result, PLN 2.9 billion less CapEx spent in Upstream. In Downstream, PLN 400 million less. That's basically our investment in Lithuania, hydrocracker that was, you may say, moved to '26 as well. In Energy, we reallocated CapEx from Upstream & Supply and Downstream to Energy partially. So that's why we spent more on solar projects of PLN 0.6 billion and CCGT plants in Grudziadz and Grudziadz of PLN 0.2 billion. If we look into our plan but this is our basic plan. So of course, subject to any rationalization and reallocation. So in the base case, we plan to spend PLN 36.3 billion. Maintenance, similar level to '25 to '25. of course, safety of our production asset is our key priority. However, this is the area definitely we can focus on as regards rationalization. Upstream, very similar level like '25, so PLN 7.8 billion. So exploration and production projects in Norway, Poland and Canada, we will continue that. In Downstream, PLN 8.9 billion. So this is an increase of PLN 2.3 billion as compared to last year in '25. So in this amount, PLN 8.9 billion, the highest amount, as you can imagine, is [indiscernible]. This is roughly PLN 6.1 billion. This is our base case. And then we have a few projects in downstream business like HVO, HVO in Plock or hydrocracking in Mazeikiai or rapeseed oil pressing plant in Ketrzyn, altogether, this gives roughly PLN 2 billion, PLN 2.1 billion. So you may say that like 5 biggest -- 6 biggest projects contributes to this amount. And then Energy, as you can see, energy is the highest CapEx in all 4 segments. And this is due to the fact that, as you know, first of all, we put a lot of emphasis on modernization and expanding our gas and electricity network in this regulatory business, PSG and Energa operator and the total CapEx is PLN 6.2 billion. Then we continue for CCGT projects, and this is roughly PLN 2.5 billion. So -- and then if you add on top of this wind and solar, you will end up with the amount of PLN 9.8 billion. As regards Consumer & Products, PLN 900 million, you may say this is evenly spread across 3 priorities we have in place, meaning expansion and modernization of fuel station network expansion of nonfuel retail network and building alternative fuel network E-mobility. So now let's move to the last slide of my short introduction. This is outlook for '26. Here, we present a few priorities. This is not the complete list, of course, because we are a very large business. So we have a lot of projects and a lot of priorities. However, let me start by saying, and we group those priorities into 3 categories, meaning investment, operations and finance. As regards to investment, of course, our key priority is to continue our growth projects. However, we will put a lot of emphasis on budget discipline and project management excellence. Definitely, we're not in the past years, very good at that. And impairments we are posting is kind of evidence. Maybe I will say that this quarter, we posted more than PLN 3 billion impairments, PLN 2.2 billion is for new chemicals projects, PLN 0.3 billion is for upstream and PLN 0.5 billion is for retail in Austria. So basically, another quarter with impairments. However, we are aware of that, and we need to focus on this budget discipline to deliver projects on time and within the budget. The second priority here is, of course, our -- I mean, the biggest investment we have in place, which is new chemicals. I can just confirm that we are in the last phase of the updating integrated schedules and creating final budget and signing the agreement with general contractors. So once this is ready, we'll communicate to the market. This is -- I would not give you a precise date today because this is subject to corporate approvals. However, I can just say that this is top priority. So it should be a question of weeks rather than months. So once we are ready, we will communicate the details. And what's very important here, we not only continue the CapEx program but step by step, we're commissioning our assets. So '26 should be the year when we complete Baltic Power, the first offshore wind plant. We will complete CCGT in Grudziadz and HVO in Plock. So step-by-step, this huge CapEx program we have will be concluded. If we move to operations, this is absolutely our priority as well to strengthen our operational excellence to create a resilient and agile business. We are a very large enterprise. So it's difficult to be agile but we try to be as agile as possible. Market environment is very challenging. It's very, very dynamic. So we need to be ready as a company to have, first of all, resilience and this integrated business model proved that we are resilient. And then we need to be agile so that we can navigate in this macro environment in the best possible way. The second point is here, secured and diversified sources of hydrocarbon supply, meaning crude oil and gas. '26 is going to be the first year without hydrocarbons from Russia. So really, this is our focus. However, I can confirm that we are prepared, secured. We proved this in the past quarters. So we have diversified sources of financing. We have term contracts, spot contracts. So we are absolutely on the safe side here. And then focus on maximum asset utilization, '25, it was a great year for us, 96% utilization in refinery and petchem assets. However, this year, we plan to have this quite big shutdowns maintenance shutdowns in Czechia and in Poland. So you may expect that utilization rate will slightly drop. However, we are doing everything so that we take out of our assets. Now let's move to finance. Of course, our financing position is very strong. However, we are not just sitting, we are revolving our credit facilities. So one of that is PLN 2 billion. We are in the process of finalization, and we are arranging PLN 2.5 billion using export credit agency facility for new chemicals projects. And what's very important, this is the last point from my side. We are absolutely aware that our impact on macro environment is very limited. So we need to navigate in that environment. So our focus again is on market risk management, very dynamic from the commodity and from the financial standpoint, meaning crude oil, gas prices, products, FX, interest rates, CO2. So all those factors will be taken into consideration, and we react accordingly to the situation. So that's all from my side, and we are ready to take your questions. Thank you.

Yes. Thank you very much for this quick presentation. As you probably have noticed, we went through one of the best quarters in Orlen history within minutes for the sake of saving the time for you to ask questions. As usually, please the floor is yours for the questions. I will refer and name you according to the order you raise your hands. So first question is [indiscernible] Bosch.

I've got 2 questions. Congratulations on the very good results. I know it's kind of early but looking forward into 1Q '26 results, how would you describe reaching a similar EBITDA or even higher between PLN 12 billion or PLN 13 billion EBITDA? Do you think it's ambitious, overambitious? Is it realistic given current macro? That's the first question. And the second question concerns the market consensus EBITDA, the one we see in Bloomberg, it's PLN 37 billion for this year. What is your comment on it?

Thank you for your question. Of course, it's difficult for me to comment the precise numbers because those are confidential information. So please allow me not to deliver you precise answer. I can just give you some kind of my impressions. So we all know what's the macro till the half of February. So basically half of the quarter passed. So we may say that refining margin plus differential dropped to USD 9.7 per barrel. So this is, I would say, normalized level. So I would not expect that this is something extraordinary. Basically, we are rationalizing refining margin and differential. So this is slightly positive as compared to last year. However, very negative as compared to the fourth quarter last year. From the petchem margin, slight increase as compared to last year and slight increase as compared to the fourth quarter. So petchem slightly better. Crude oil, crude oil higher than fourth quarter, however, lower than the first quarter. So as you know, gas price is lower, Henry Hub spread versus TTF short, as you know. So a lot of factors that impact our performance. So from the consumption point of view, as we all know, the gas consumption is higher, electricity as well. So mixed views, I would say. So I would not give you a precise answer with PLN 13 billion EBITDA is the right assumption. We'll see. We still have 6 weeks to go. And as regards full year, I will give you a similar answer basically. In the base case, we should assume that macro environment is not going to be as great as '25 as we know. So refining margins rather down. Crude oil, subject to geopolitical tensions, generally mixed views on crude oil. So if from the geopolitical point of view, situation is stable, we may assume crude oil price going down. But if the situation, especially with Iran, current situation with Iran is going to be tense, we may expect crude oil price going up. Gas prices in the base case, as we all know, rather down, electricity prices rather down. So macro environment in the base case, as I'm saying, we are prepared for being lower than last year. But we are doing everything which is in our hands to improve the operational indicators. And from that perspective, you can be sure that absolutely focused on operational excellence, delivering CapEx on time and within the budget. Of course, we have these shutdowns, refinery shutdowns plant every 4-year shutdown. So utilization rate in our refineries and petchem plants, you should assume slightly lower. So definitely can be more challenging '26 than '25. But we'll do everything possible so that the result is as great as we can.

Next in line, Piotr Dzieciolowski from Citi.

So I have a couple of them. So first of all, can you please explain what is -- because on the chart, I don't quite get the difference between your operating cash flow and your EBITDA because you also pay taxes. There is -- I looked into your like a cash flow statement, there's like a reversal of provisions, which do not find a reflection on the balance sheet when you move from that position. So can you really say what happened, why your cash collection is significantly stronger than EBITDA given the taxes that you pay and so on? Because if you simply deduct the taxation from your clean EBITDA, then we are more than PLN 10 billion above that level. So that's question number one. And then second follow-up to this one. How should we think about the dividend in light of this operating cash flow? Does this -- your normal dividend policy apply or not? And the final question from my side is, what kind of implication you see from the ongoing Slovakian, Hungary situation where there is no crude supplies to that refineries? Does it have a positive impact to you? Can you benefit from it? Or what's the effect?

Okay. Thank you so much. As regards to the first question, really, you touched a very important point because I agree with you that in the normalized situation, you may assume that we deliver EBITDA, then we pay tax and this should be operating free cash flow. However, there are always those -- some -- we may call it one-off. However, this is subject to the hydrocarbon basically quotation. So we have changes in working capital. And then we have changes in the provisions in the obligatory reserves because obligatory reserves are included in this other. We have hedge accounting. We have CO2. So this is really complicated, and we need to deep dive as regards that probably offline because this is not so simple. You said perfectly, if you look into our financial statements, Page #9, which is cash flow from operations, you have a lot of positions here that should be explained. So I can -- at this stage, I can just say that I agree with you that I would not say this is one-off, but this is -- this cash flow in '25 is kind of inflated by decreasing the pricing by this hedge accounting, et cetera. So in the long run, you should expect our cash flow from operations closer to our EBITDA, what we generate. For example, if you look at...

Is there any -- sorry to follow up. Is there any risk of the reversal of this positive one-off? So the kind of a cash flow, let's say, you generate whatever the consensus is PLN 37 billion EBITDA but your operating cash flow for next year is significantly lower. Is there a risk like this? And then how you smooth it out in terms -- in light of your dividend policy because that is linked to operating cash flow line.

Yes. As regards to changes in the working capital and changes in the obligatory reserves, of course, this is subject to the quotations. So if this is going to be reversed, let's see. If in the base case, we assume that those prices are going down, that means that we should we should have extra positive effect of working capital, not negative. As regards to those provisions, I would say that part of this, you may expect some negative but I would not say today definitely what kind of amount we can expect. But definitely, I can repeat again that I treat this cash flow from operations in '25 as kind of inflated a little bit due to the fact of this working capital and one-off items. But as regards to dividend policy, so as you can imagine, we look carefully into the cash flow statements long run, rather, I mean, long run in a sense, '25 and '26. So dividend policy is valid. I can just confirm as always, that we should pay dividend. And it's too early today to say what's the final recommendation of the Management Board. This is going to be delivered in April once we present the final full year financial statements. But definitely, cash flow is good. So the question of '26 forecast, and we will prepare that and then we'll propose. And as regards to Slovakia and Hungary as well, as we all know, they try to deliver crude from Mediterranean Sea. So I assume that in the base case, they will manage to deliver this crude and they will operate as they operate. Currently, they use reserves. So at this moment, we don't see a very significant turbulence in the market. And I guess they will manage to cope with that.

[indiscernible]

I have 3 questions, if I may. The first would be about Iran conflict that may happen or may not happen. But my question would be how the like potential escalation of that conflict affect your imports of Saudi crude and Qatari LNG. I mean, in such scenario, with switching to mandatory strategic reserves create any operational challenge for you?

Thank you for the question. Of course, we are observing the situation, how this will definitely affect if something happens crude oil quotations. As I said in my presentation, we create this diversified model. So we have 10 contracts, but our 10 contracts in crude oil is basically 50%. So we have spot contracts. So we are very active on the market. So just in case, I believe we build this competence and we are ready to reallocate from different sources. From the gas point of view, we have, of course, the contract with Qatar but this contract is just 2.7 billion cubic meters. So from the total delivery from us, of course, this is a significant part but not as significant that we cannot replace from other sources. So we build our competence on LNG market. We know that '26, the next volumes will come from the second Venture Global contract, which is Plaquemines. So I believe the last quarters, the last years prepared us for any turbulence on the market from the crude oil and gas prices, I mean, gas deliver.

Okay. But can you say -- I mean, what was the share of Saudi oil right now in your feedstock? Is it 50%? Did I understand that correctly?

It's less. It's less than I assume like 40%, 40% plus.

Okay. And the second question would be a follow-up on that Venture Global situation. Could you provide us an update on the current status on the dispute regarding the Calcasieu project because recently [indiscernible], the proceedings with Venture Global, I mean, how is it going in your proceeding? I mean, when we can expect any ruling? And what would you expect about that Plaquemines LNG train? Do you expect the same situation as in Calcasieu that you're not going to receive any deliveries for the first part of the sanctioning of that new project?

Thank you so much. I can confirm what we said last quarter because nothing new basically happens in the meantime. So the hearing is expected in the fourth quarter this year. And then you need -- I mean, there is always a time like half a year for final verdict. So we expect the final verdict like in '27, end of first half of '27. So this is a kind of base case scenario. We know that the rulings are different [indiscernible] BP1. So we will see what's going to happen with us. As regards the information from the lawyers, we are fighting for positive outcome, and there is probability that the outcome will be positive. However, let's wait for the final case. As regards Plaquemines, Venture Global confirmed that probably fourth quarter this year, they will start the first deliveries out of this contract of 5.4 billion cubic meters. So we may assume that in '27, we should have a kind of full deliveries from those 2 Venture Global contracts, PLN 2 billion from Calcasieu pass and 5.4 billion from Plaquemines. And then in '27, we will start 1.3 billion from Sempra. So basically '27, '28 will be the full years of deliveries of LNG from U.S.

And as of now you received the full amount of deliveries from Calcasieu pass or you're waiting for?

Yes, yes. So we started last year, as you know, '25. And this year, you may assume that the whole PLN 2 billion from that contract will be delivered.

Okay. And the third question, if I may, will be on capital allocation because in recent days, your CEO indicated that the updated strategy will include substantial CapEx dedicated to the energy transition still. And in the light of the ETS reform and declining carbon allowance prices, could those plans be adjusted? I mean, how flexible are you like in this area?

Of course, we look into those regulations and they impact us significantly. So still, we don't know what the final outcome is going to be. I would just say that energy transition is something, which is our priority, and this will continue. Our CapEx program was set in the strategy announced last year in January. So we will look carefully into all those projects. We will reallocate amounts if those are necessary. However, today, it's too early to say kind of what kind of rationalization, what kind of reallocation and what kind of final target is going to be placed. I would just maybe add that in the strategy last year and here in this presentation as regards CapEx for '26, we don't include -- I mean we don't include M&A in '26. In the strategy, there was quite significant part of M&A. And so I believe that this M&A is kind of flexible part of our spending. So this is something we look carefully from the organic CapEx, growth CapEx, I believe in the next 3 years, we are quite done. We reallocated this CapEx properly. However, of course, always rationalization and optimization is in place if feasible.

Anna Kishmariya, UBS.

There is a little bit of a delay. A couple of questions from my side. First, I want to follow up regarding the EBITDA outlook for this year, but more from the new projects that will be on stream, what contribution do you expect? Second, in terms of your CapEx and M&A comments. On the CapEx side, how much do you think could be rationalization for 2026? Like where could you see the scope there? Also, you mentioned HVO in Plock CapEx for the year, though I thought that the project should be already in the starting up mode. So what is left there in terms of the CapEx? And probably the last one is just a quick clarification check regarding the dividend. I think last year, the recommendation took place already with fourth quarter results in February. Why there is this change in recommendation now in April?

Okay. Thank you so much. So as regards to EBITDA and new projects, please bear in mind that Baltic Power is going to be in place [indiscernible] in the base case in September. So only fourth quarter will be a kind of extra EBITDA delivered. As regards CCGT plant in Grudziadz, we are targeting end of the year. So you should expect EBITDA delivered in '27 from that projects. HVO, yes, we are finalizing is basically close to being operational. So first quarter should be operational. So we don't deliver precise numbers as regards EBITDA contribution for the full year but definitely a few hundred million Polish zlotys should be added here. As regards CapEx rationalization, this is ongoing task. We don't provide this number yet. However, I believe in our strategic update, this is my personal view, we should have this component of OpEx and CapEx optimization program, and we should deliver a concrete amount we would like to get out of those programs. So I'm not in a position to tell you today. And as regards dividend, it's difficult for me to comment last year, I was not there. However, I believe during my past experience, I mean, 2008 to 2017, that was for 9 years. So I believe we always delivered dividend together with full financial statement in April. So that was the practice I used to operate. So I believe this is a good practice as well. This is closer to general assembly, and this is -- we know we have more visibility as regards '26. So that's my view.

We'll now turn to Michal Kozak, Trigon.

I have 2 questions, if I may. The first one, could you explain the -- sorry, could you explain the changes in operating cash flow? When we look at provisions amount, you reported some reversal in probably CO2 provisions in the last quarter and huge gain on investing activities these 2 components totaled over PLN 7 billion in the last quarter. Do you think that it's worth reporting economic net debt just like domestic utility companies did 1 year ago probably?

As regards this operating cash, to some extent, I answered some -- I gave some clarifications at the beginning of our call. So I can just repeat what I said there that we have those items we need to -- I mean, we need to investigate it deeply. However, this is more offline discussion. As regards to this investment, are you referring to this line loss on investment activity, which is included in the cash flow from operations statement?

Yes, this is a gain, not loss.

Gain because this is like reversal of impairments because this is impairments we are creating. So I said in the fourth quarter, there was more than PLN 3 billion, so actually PLN 3.4 billion impairment. So that's why this is noncash, we are reversing this. So...

So reversing provisions is connected with CO2 probably, yes.

So If you start -- if you look into our graph, which is EBITDA or EBITDA LIFO, that means this EBITDA LIFO is already excluding impairments. So that's why this line is basically not shown during our waterfall.

Maybe the last question. In your previous strategy, did you assume such a large TGE versus TTF gas price spread, which has doubled year-on-year basis and is having a positive impact on your domestic upstream operations and I in wholesale gas trading, do you believe that this spread should be sustained going forward?

This spread, we know what's the market environment currently as regard Henry Hub and TTF, and in the next few years. I mean again, in the base case based on the all the agencies, we should expect this spread to drop. So this is something that may impact, of course, our EBITDA definitely.

So you expect the spread to drop going forward?

Yes. As compared to '25 to '26, I mean, it's going down and now we will stabilize. If you look into our macro slide, you can see that Henry Hub increased from 57 to 77 and TTF dropped from 196 to 142. So definitely, the spread shortened. But as regards to TGE because you asked about TGE as well and TTF, right? But as regards to TGE, TTF, of course, this is subject to -- I mean, the market is volatile in the weeks like January this year and we are paying basically more for interconnectors. So in the long run, the situation is quite stable. So the difference between TTF and TGE is basically obligatory reserves we need to keep and the interconnectors of this network we need to pay for. And this is more kind of stable. This is like between TTF or TGE and TGE is like 10%, 11% difference. And in the months like January this year, of course, this widens but you should assume this is absolutely temporary.

We'll now be going back to Piotr Dzieciolowski, who has a follow-up question.

Yes, because there was nobody in the line or a few people I decided to ask a follow-up. Can you please provide us a bit of an update of what are certain M&A processes you've been doing? We've seen the changes in the Grupa Azoty Management Board. How does this impact your acquisition of this polypropylene installation. You haven't succeeded the disposal of the parcel unit to Poczta Polska. And historically, you were talking also a lot about the acquisition of upstream in Norway, infrastructure in LNG. And the reason I ask about all this M&A on a net basis is that it seems that you can't lever up the company quickly enough. And therefore, how would you assess the risk of a possible tax on all the state budget is a little bit in the tight situation. And then if they have a company, we've seen a situation like this in the past, they were really trying to grab a little bit of money here and there. So just wanted to understand how you see the M&A CapEx or the amount, how you -- can you really spend or buy something in a sizable amount going forward? And on these 3 particular cases, like what happened?

Okay. Thank you. So M&A in M&A, we are very cautious, as I always repeat, because this is flexible part of our spending and depending on the situation and our cash flow position. So currently, only gap is on the table. As you know, we extended our offer to purchase Polyolefins in Police of PLN 1.023 billion. So this is something we communicated. This is valid, and this is the only feasible M&A, which is currently in place. However, we are looking, of course, in Upstream segment into any possibilities, nothing concrete on the table. But if you assume that we should increase our production of hydrocarbons, it's not that easy to allocate organic growth so that significantly we can increase our production. So if we still continue that strategic move, we may consider an M&A. But as I said, may consider, there is nothing concrete. And similarly to our renewables projects, so like wind, solar farms, this is something we are analyzing as well. And if there is a good opportunity, we may allocate some resources in Poland for Polish project as well. So this is from M&A point of view, I believe the situation. But as regards to your second part of the question, you can imagine that I'm not in a position, it's difficult for me to comment on any possible moves in that area.

Thank you very much. You are all more than welcome to have follow-ups. But now we'll turn to [indiscernible] We can't hear you. Okay. We're having some technical difficulties. So we'll turn to. We'll come back to [indiscernible] in a minute.

I would like to go further for Michal's question about the supply and upstream segment because I understand looking at TTF gas prices this year should be under the pressure from the prices downgrading. I would like to ask you about forces or your actions that can the segment EBITDA this year, for example, from trading and other perspective. What can we expect this year from the segment besides the lower gas prices? There are any forces that can support the results this year?

Okay. Thank you so much. So when I close my first part of the presentation, I indicated at the last point that market risk management is in spotlight. So of course, we know the forecast, we know the pricing. So we are not sitting and waiting. We are hedging. So any negative impact is not going to have a kind of full 100% in EBITDA because partially, we are hedging this. We don't provide, of course, the details of our hedging policy and our hedge position but this is one area we can work on. Of course, it is a drop in crude oil prices and gas prices from our production assets apart from hedging this very little we can do. So basically, trading, trading and the active trading. This is the answer for the drop in crude oil prices and gas prices in the Upstream segment. And of course, the second part, as you know, we communicated that once we have LNG from U.S., we don't always deliver this LNG to Europe. We find new markets in Asia. So we delivered to Japan. We delivered LNG ship to Japan, for example, last year. So this is something we are considering as well.

Thank you for your questions. Thank you all for active participation. It seems that the questions and especially the answers were exhaustive enough because we see you that there are no further questions. So thank you very much for the call, for active participation. As you have noticed probably, a little bit turned to your side to give you [ more opportunities ] for active discussion. We'll keep on doing that. So thank you very much for this participation for the Q4 results. We will see you on the road for the sake of information, we'll be hosting meetings with Polish buy side beginning of March. We will be on the road with international investors starting from the first conference mid-March. And for the time being, we kindly invite you to the press conference call that will be held in already 20 minutes including the CEO of the company, Ireneusz Fafara. Thank you very much for this call and see you in the Q1 conference call in May.