Oxford Biomedica plc (OXB) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Good afternoon, everyone. My name is Jem de los Santos. I'm with the health care investment banking team based in London at JPMorgan; very pleased today to present Stuart Paynter, the CFO of Oxford Biomedica.

Thank you very much. So thank you for showing some interest in Oxford Biomedica. Let me take you through a brief presentation on who we are and what we do, the successes we've had, some of the challenges we face. And yes, I'll try and spend 25 minutes doing this. And then we can, hopefully, have a few questions. If there's anything I say that doesn't make any sense, please interject. Let's make this a bit interactive. So going past the forward-looking statements slide. Who are Oxford Biomedica? Well, we are a pure-play CDMO. And we are focused on the cell and gene therapy area, so we've only recently sort of transformed the company into that business model. Previously, in the incarnation of Oxford Biomedica for the previous 20 years, we were a hybrid company both doing our own therapeutics and doing CDMO services. And we've decided that the work over that 25 years we've done, especially in lentiviral vectors, really lends itself more to working with clients in order to help them solve their problems, develop their products than it does to develop our own therapeutics. It's very difficult to balance both. We are pure play and we are focused in the cell and gene therapy area. We are not a viral vector CDMO as such, although that's the major service we provide. We say we're a cell and gene therapy focused CDMO, and we're pretty unique in that aspect. In terms of capabilities, we have got the capabilities to go from very, very early stage with our clients, from identifying the genes of interest right the way through to commercial GMP manufacturing. And we have been working with Novartis now for -- well, we've been working with Novartis for 11 years but actually doing their commercial manufacturing for Kymriah since August 2017, when that product was launched in the U.S. And we are still the sole global vector manufacturer for that product. In terms of our technologies, we go across the viral vector types. So long legacy in lentiviral vectors, which is what we're probably best known for, but over the past couple of years, we've made some acquisitions and licensed some technologies which give us significant capabilities in both AAV and adeno as well. And actually for -- over the COVID period, we manufactured the AstraZeneca COVID vaccine, which was an adeno vaccine. And so that gave us experience both in commercial manufacture of adenos; and access [ to that ] adeno platform, which we now use. As I said, products on which we work are now commercially approved in more than 40 countries. And that is Kymriah. One of the USPs we have is that we can help our clients, from a regulatory perspective, do the filings and get approved in many, many countries around the world. We understand the regulatory landscape for cell and gene therapy. We've got 9 GMP suites across Oxford, U.K., Bedford, U.S., which gives us plenty of capacity. We've successfully made 340-plus batches of viral vectors. And we'll come on to this later, but one of the reasons we win in the field against much bigger competitors, and we'll go through some of the competition as well, is that people do ask what your track record is. And that's a substantial -- substantive track record for a cell and gene therapy viral vector CDMO. We've got 24 clients, 41 programs, so the beginnings of a very nice portfolio; always looking to add to that. One of the key things as a CDMO you need to be is flexible with your scheduling. And you need to be able to replace products which either [indiscernible] clinically or get deprioritized, et cetera so, whilst your clients can be tinkering around with their decision making, you have a solid basis on which to grow. And then at the bottom here, you just see some of the names we work with, all the way from big pharma Novartis, BMS, Boehringer Ingelheim; right down to some of the smaller emerging biotechs you see there. So what's the plan? So since we made this transformation, and we announced a sort of rightsizing of the company late last year which we believe will save an annualized GBP 30 million, we've outlined the sustainable growth plan which we're putting in place. So we've rightsized the business to give it a CDMO base rather than a hybrid company base. All that has happened in 2023 and it will be accounted for in that period, so '24 is a clean run for us. We set out our strategy, which I'll take you through. Implement strategy is nothing without a strong implementation plan, and we've been working very hard on that. And then key is the pathway towards profitability because we are a CDMO focused on cell and gene therapy, which is a maturing market. We'll take you through some of those numbers, but we have no other modalities we work on. So in terms of some of our competitors, some of the bigger guys, like Lonza, Thermo, for example, Catalent, they have multi modalities they work on. This is just one of them. We are focused in this area, which is both a strength and a bit of a risk, but we'll go through why we think we're going to both mitigate and really leverage that risk to give us extra focus. So the clear strategy. So the transformation which I mentioned has really taken place now. We are now rightsized as a pure-play cell and gene therapy CDMO, and we believe now is the right time to do that. The market is high growth, as you can see, some of those numbers. It's roughly a weighted 20% CAGR. Adenovirus is coming down, as you can see on that slide, but that's because of the vaccine. But both AAV and lenti, the 2 sort of prevalent viral vector strains, they're growing very, very strongly. And we expect them to continue throughout not just the next 3 years, but as you can see there, it's a '28 CAGR. So that's significant growth. The quality- and innovation-led sort of strategy we have really is super important, so over our time period when we've been working with lenti and on lenti, we've made some significant strides in both the ease of manufacture, the purity, the efficacy of our viral vectors. We just launched the fourth generation of viral vector, which I'll take you through soon, but we've been working on viral vectors for more than 20 years. And we've had individuals with us, since that time, working. And the innovation is super important to bring down the costs of these therapies to the payer and ultimately get more patients treated. We know this is an important issue in the industry right now. And quality, of course, is everything. So focus on quality both in terms of the quality of the product, the regulated quality of the product but not just that, the quality of the operations, so it's the "right first time" attitude, the client centricity. We want to be seen as a really high-quality player. And that, of course, enables you to be on the premium end of pricing, which everyone aspires to be, with the technologies you have. We know we've got proven platforms and differentiated platform technologies because, as you can see from the client roster we currently have, we're looking to grow that client roster, but people do come to us because they know that our vector system does work and has been on the market for the longest time of anyone with a lenti viral vector on the market. And the goal for the company is to become multi vector, multi site, so we really want to be able to do everything everywhere. So that really speaks to the client centricity of the new strategy, really focused on what the client wants. Especially for process development, clients typically want to be close to the work that's going on because it's very, very important for them to be in full control [ and understanding ], working with us in a partnership. Obviously the global footprint is very important. And we're just about to close a deal in France, which I'll take you through on the next slide, which really does make us genuinely internationalized. And we really need to integrate very, very closely; share both technologies and know-how in a controlled, secure way in order that we can fully leverage the 700 people we currently have and another 140, 150 coming with our French acquisition. So the implementation plan. Let's start with commercial. We -- until a couple of years ago, we were probably the sort of company that really did business on a word-of-mouth basis in a very, very big licensing deal type way. So a business development type model that we were running, and we've really switched that into a commercial model. So we've really invested in that area. A couple of years ago, we had 4 people working in our business development team. Now we've got 15, 16 people, so we've heavily invested to give us the share of voice and feet on the ground to match some of the bigger competition that we see. And that's really paying dividends in the increases in orders that we're seeing, so orders obviously is a key metric, key barometer for where your revenue is going to be next year. And we've seen some really strong order growth in 2023, which we have -- confident we can continue into '24 and beyond. We have -- like I said, we've concluded this workforce reorganization. It involved a good number of colleagues leaving us to rightsize this into an efficient CDMO. Actually when you're running a dual operation like we were, both a CDMO and developing your own therapeutics, you really see you really build an infrastructure which is difficult to manage because they're doing lots and lots of different things and [ there's ] multi skill. We're really trying to focus the skills so everyone is doing 1 or 2 things really, really well. And there's a whole bunch of new ways of working, which we're integrating right now with the experience of our top management who have got significant CDMO experience, in order that we can morph ourselves from one thing to another. It's extremely important and it's a transformation that will take place over the next couple of years. So the rightsizing has been done, but the transformation just starts. And we are currently transferring our technology from Oxford, the lenti technology, into Boston. We'll do the same into France, when that deal closes, because we are really seeing the demand for our lenti products outstripping the capacity we have in Oxford to be able to serve from a PD perspective. So we are relatively capacity constrained on the process development side in Oxford, and we'll be opening up new latent capacity both in Boston and France in order to serve those clients. So it's the interesting aside, but I often hear talk of overcapacity in the market for the cell and gene therapy. And in one -- to one extent, it's true. So from a GMP perspective, there is overcapacity in the market. There's plenty of facilities that can -- with bioreactors and that can make use of gene therapy theoretically, but where there's undercapacity is on the PD side. And certainly we are at capacity. And others just don't offer the same, that same service, which is why we think we win. And I'll take you through some of those USPs that we have a bit later on. And importantly, just at the end there, we're talking about the ABL deal. So we've acquired ABL Europe. That deal should close in the next couple of weeks. We've got all the regulatory approvals we need now. We just need to go through the sort of ending process. And that's going to bring us this extra PD capacity; 25 years of experience as a CDMO; 140 CDMO experts coming from both France and Lyon -- Strasbourg and Lyon, 2 sites; and some significant capabilities and capacity that we're going to open up with that deal. And actually having a site on mainland Europe is important because the EU does offer some pretty nice incentives for European biotechs to manufacture in mainland Europe. And that should be a real benefit to us in terms of grants offered to our clients. It should enable us to make a big impact in that marketplace very quickly. We'll transfer the lenti platform over there. And I think that will be a really exciting acquisition for us. And it was a pretty good deal. So the enterprise value that was assigned to that was EUR 5 million. They're already producing somewhere in the teens in terms of revenues, broadly breakeven. Institut Mérieux, who's the current owner, will take a 10% stake in Oxford Biomedica, but [ they're both buying ] the market. And they'll buy some of those shares for cash as well, so very, very good deal for us. And that should be closing in the next couple of weeks. Pathway to profitability. So now we're a pure-play CDMO. There's only really 2 reasons for a pure-play CDMO to exist. The first is to serve your clients and ultimately serve those patients who need these treatments very badly. And secondly is to make money, and we can't really avoid this and we're not going to avoid it. And in fact, we're going to meet it head on. So this is where we think our finances are coming out and looking. The important is the purple thing down the right-hand side. So we're going to end roughly GBP 90 million this year is the guidance we've given in 2023. We are confident we can grow -- none of these numbers, by the way, include the French numbers. We won't include those until we closed, but 30% EBITDA CAGR for the next -- sorry, 30% revenue CAGR for the next 3 years. And at the end of that time period, in 2026, we expect to be making a 20% EBITDA margin or above. So that's where we come from, GBP 90 million and loss making this year, to broadly breakeven next year, to 20% EBITDA CAGR -- 20% EBITDA margin in 2026, having more than doubled the revenues in that time period. And the orders we've signed this year support that. And the strength of the pipeline beyond that supports that, as well as the quality of the products already in our pipeline, and you'll see a snapshot of those momentarily. So this is super important. Now we need to give clear guidance to the market. And post the French deal closing, we will come out and re-guide and give 2024 guidance. And then we need to update the market on a frequent basis on the progress we're making. So let's just dive a bit deeper into the commercial strategy, which is where we're going to win because revenue growth is just about everything in this industry. There's lots and lots of prospects out there, lots of opportunities. How are we going to grab them? Where have we been and how successful have we been, so far? And why do we think we're going to win in the future? Well, this is a snapshot of the client programs we currently have, as of September '23 actually. So client programs, 41, so that's the beginnings of a really nice portfolio for us. And then you can see that 41 listed out in terms of the progress or the relative advancement of those programs. So that first one is what you'd call preclinical. The second block of 14 is Phase I, Phase II. The third block, with 1 in it, is sort of Phase III or nearing BLA. And then the last one is commercial. The quality of the products we have and the partners we have really do lead us to believe that, in the next 3 years, significant progress is going to be made in that internal pipeline. There's going to be dropoffs. There always will be. [ All of those 25 aren't ] going to make it through, but with the probability weighting, we really believe that we can get to the end. And of course, for every CDMO, for any CDMO but especially for one in the cell and gene therapy area, those commercial products are gold because that gives you the predictable, routine manufacturing. When I say routine, it's routine in orders, not routine in ease; manufacturing you get -- that you can build your basis of your plan on every year. And that's how you become efficient. You absorb overheads and you become profitable. And we've got enough programs sort of entering those 2 late-stage areas now. And progress has been made since September '23, that we're confident that we can get to the end of -- by 2026, we'll have more than 1 in each of those areas and we will be able to generate a plus 20% EBITDA margin at that point. That isn't the end, by the way. That just indicates that, even in 2026, this market won't be fully mature; and that maturity will come somewhere down the line. We know that gold standard CDMO EBITDA margins are probably somewhere in the 30s, mid-30s, towards the high 30s, depending on the products, but that requires a mature industry. And we don't quite know how long it's going to take to get there, but by the time we get to 2026, of course, we're happy to re-guide. And we're happy to keep on driving those efficiencies to get more and more profitable. We don't see any reason fundamentally why cell and gene therapy can't be as profitable as other advanced therapies manufacturing. So why do we think we win? So this is the sort of list of these differentiated platform technologies we have. The first question -- a couple of my commercial colleagues are sitting in the room, but the first question they're asked is, "What's your track record?" So whenever you interact with a client, they just want to know whether you've done it before because what they want to do is leverage that experience you have in problem solving: solving their problems in a very fast, flexible way through process development; and helping them get to the end with the best probability of success, all important for your -- for our clients. And we really do pride ourselves on giving a really client-centric experience. They're not just a number to us. They're not going to go into a schedule and be forgone about. We work very closely with our clients. And the -- our NPS scores tell us that they enjoy that experience, but the track record is all important. So 25 years of lenti viral vector experience, 340 GMP batches. On the AAV side, the team that we inherited from the Homology team, which we're transforming into our U.S. site CDMO, have made 45 batches of AAV. And now they need to go out and make batches of AAV for others. And so we're not as advanced as we are in the lenti space, but it's a really great technology. And we've been pretty successful in signing clients onto that platform, but we want more work to do on -- in that area. And we believe we can accelerate clients' time lines. Actually one of the other things that we think is sort of occurring in the industry is that the FDA, in public statements, have said that they'd really like to see a fivefold decrease in costs of goods in cell and gene therapy products to the payer. And of course, the only way you can do that is to drive down the costs of sales. And the suggestion made directly from the FDA was, well, you need to centralize activities at reputable CDMOs and where they have platform technologies which are proven. There may be some interesting ways for them to accelerate time lines for clients using those platforms. A long way to go between them saying it and it becoming policy, but it's a really exciting time for a company like us with a very established platform. And if you can accelerate a client's time line even by 6 months to approval, or by 12 months -- we know that biotechs are running at about $100 million a year in terms of cost base, so that's so significant. It's not -- we're not niggling around with [ prices of ] batches here. This is a massive chunk of cash they may be able to save. So the FDA making signs that they want to help the industry get better and get cheaper, and we'll keep a watching brief on that. I did mention TetraVecta. This is our fourth generation of lenti vector. That was launched last year; increased packaging, potency, quality; a whole bunch of novel IP in there. And we've inherited the dual-plasmid system from Homology, which is a pretty good system. And we're just looking for -- we're -- like I said, we're investigating with about 10 clients at the moment, early stage. And we really do believe this can make a difference to other AAV clients as well, so this is being aggressively marketed. And then the regulatory achievements. Like I said, it's not -- it's no small feat to help a client through an IND submission, a BLA submission, an ODAC meeting like we did with Novartis. And we've got really, really nice experience of both doing that and getting people, getting Novartis specifically, approved in more than 40 countries around the world, Kymriah; and helping actually amend regulatory filings as well. When they swapped from an adherent process to a suspension process a long time ago now, 2018, all the regulatory paperwork needed to be amended and we helped them with that. This is just the sort of last slide, and this is an embodiment of our CEO's sort of transformation strategy. So when we look at this slide: He really wants to take a company which has done really, really good things; and he wants to make this company a great thing. And so he's, we've got this concept of a flywheel. And as you see there, if you start at the top with the people -- because without people, every company is nothing. We've great people at the moment. We want to be able to attract and develop and retain those people. Now we're going through this process of operating in this client-centric organization, so a lot of the changes that have been done at the end of '23 and ways of working coming into '24 will really give us the discipline of a CDMO, which we're getting from senior management, a lot of good CDMO experience coming there. And we need to organize ourselves in a way which is entirely consistent with the client's experience. Then we'll be able to deliver those client experiences, deliver them great product on time, a quality experience. And then from that, you'll be able to expand the existing partnerships and attract new clients because this is a small world. Like I said, we've been successful without really marketing ourselves because people in one company who have had a great experience move to another company or speak to someone in another company. And word of mouth really works well. That added to an aggressive marketing campaign should allow us to really maximize those opportunities, generate the increasing returns for reinvestment both in technologies and anything that better serves clients. At the moment, we are a viral -- we're mostly on viral vectors, but like I said earlier, we're a gene and cell therapy CDMO, so we don't rule out anything that's sufficiently adjacent to our existing technologies and capacity, our infrastructure to enable us to easily move into it. So other technologies which are potentially nonviral which can be made in the same sort of GMP suites, et cetera could be open to us to better -- to invest in, with those increasing returns. And that, again, enables us to become the best company with essentially a great outlook in order that we can attract the best people. So we think this is like -- it's a flywheel. It's a virtuous circle. We're working on all of these. This is how we're going to run the business. And we believe that, once we go around this circle a few times, with increasing our NPS scores with our clients, optimizing that organization, being commercially savvy and commercially successful and the P&L tells the story, this will start running itself. So this is how we turn the company that was Oxford Biomedica hybrid into this quality- and innovation-led cell and gene therapy CDMO that we want to be. So I'm going to stop there, and we'll sit down and take some questions. And thank you for listening.

Thank you very much, Stuart. And I think we've now moved on -- or we're now going to move on to the Q&A portion of the presentation. Please note that, if there are any questions in the room, there is a microphone in the back that you can get ahead of asking your question. With that said, are there any questions in the room for Stuart at this time? Great -- I think I saw one in the back.

How would you characterize utilization of your current capacity? And at what point do you need to invest materially more in infrastructure?

I don't know how close, so I've got to get to this mic, but I'll sit here. It's a great question. Actually it's -- it doesn't -- unfortunately, it doesn't have an easy answer. Suffice to say that I did make the point that there is overcapacity in GMP, so if GMP is the capacity you're talking about, we don't need to make a material investment, under current assumptions, until 2029 in further GMP capacity. So we have enough GMP capacity both with the U.S., the U.K. and soon with France to see us through on an aggressive growth profile from a revenue perspective for the next 5 years. That being said, if we are more successful than we think under current assumptions and we sign bigger deals, it's a great problem to have. And we do have [ an already ] planned expansion to GMP in the Oxford facility, in a fallow space, which has got -- it's been planned. It's going in for planning permission and it's going to be held for execution when we need it. So we've tried to mitigate the risk. We never want to be at capacity on GMP. We always want to be ahead of the game and investing before it happens, but we've sort of put that mitigation in place so we're going to be good. But under current assumptions, like I say, with pretty aggressive growth profile doubling revenues by '26 and beyond, not including ABL, no further investment until 2029.

Are there any additional questions in the room?

I presume that the number of the clients from 2022 to 2023 actually include a number of the clients that the ABL and the -- your joint venture already had. Is that right?

Nothing on this presentation includes ABL, but yes in the U.S. So the U.S. sort of owned entity, the U.S. site, is included, not ABL.

I see. It looks like, during the time, you lost one of your commercial clients. Could you share the -- what's the background...

Yes. That was the AstraZeneca COVID vaccine. So I think everyone is glad we lost it, right? I mean it's -- but it was one of those things that we were running full bore. I mean the experience that COVID -- the COVID vaccine gave us actually is worth -- is just worth talking about briefly because, as well as giving us experience with adeno, which now we have access to a platform which enables us to produce adeno for our clients, it's a smaller market, but it's there. It really gave us the experience of running at really a capacity which is unbelievable. We were running, 24/7, 3 suites. I mean we don't really think any gene therapy client is going to tell us to make as much as you can, "Don't stop," but it just showed what happens to a CDMO when you can be sort of efficient in that way and really sweat your assets. And of course, now we've got some significant CDMO experience in CEO and some of our major C-suite individuals. That's exactly what we're looking to do, sweat the assets and really be as efficient as we can be in a market that's still maturing. And we should bear that in mind.

I think I saw one question in the front.

Okay, I want to know your anticipation for the long-term growth potential of the lentivirus market. And what do you think is the most major constraint for the lentivirus market is -- to grow in the future?

Yes. So I mean you saw the numbers we threw up there. It was 18% and 19% of CAGR until 2028. Obviously when you go out that far, there's a bit of guesswork involved there, but we think it's going to significantly grow. There are enough clinical trials ongoing in both AAV and lenti, to more than 1,400, I think, to know that this is going to be a part of the health care landscape for the next 10, 15, 20 years. Where are the risks in that? Well, there are risks of adverse events, as you can imagine. I mean we've made some really good progress in terms of safety and other quality, purity issues with TetraVecta and our platform in general over the years, but the -- you're always at the mercy of adverse events. We haven't seen any yet. And there are -- we're building that real world of, say, any -- I mean we haven't seen any fundamental adverse reactions to lenti yet, so we think it's a proven technology for treatment now. And there are enough CAR Ts especially out there to make it absolutely a part of the landscape, yes. I think it's got good prospects and a growth profile. Actually, probably the biggest single thing in terms of opening a market is China, which is the second biggest market in the world for lenti, after the U.S. And we are sort of examining our sort of strategy to potentially take our technology into China because the 2 markets, China and the rest of the world, are almost mutually exclusive. I mean we do supply vector into China through Novartis because it's the drug substance rather than the drug product. We're allowed to do that, but actually taking our technology and to Chinese companies to benefit from that is really something that is we're looking to do, being the second biggest market in the world. It will be remiss of us not to be doing something to address that opportunity for us.

Great. Are there any more questions? I think we have a little bit of time, so I may ask a few then. And Stuart, can you just comment on -- I know you mentioned it already but maybe just ongoing progress on the ABL acquisition. I think you mentioned it was going to close, hopefully, in the next few weeks. Maybe an update on kind of the integration time line. You can -- how are you thinking about that post close?

Yes. Well -- so we believe it's going to close. I mean all the regulatory hurdles have sort of been met. Now it's we're going through the administrative throes of closing a deal, so we are extremely confident this will be closed; integration-wise, really, really important for us. I mean they have some really, really nice experience. They've been a CDMO 25 years. They've got loads of CDMO experience, which we think will be additive to our culture, but we need to integrate properly to be able to really benefit from that in other sites, so the model that we're running as an operation now is going to be a site model. So we're running the U.K. as a site, the U.S. as a site. We'll run France as a site, all feeding up to the group. And in that way, we really want to share technologies and know-how across those sites. And we'll be -- we've got an in-depth integration plan that's going to run from the moment of close. And one of the first activities we'll undertake is to transfer the lenti technology into France because we really do think there's latent demand from European clients and other clients actually to have their lenti -- they -- like I said, we're at capacity, so once we open up both Bedford in the U.S. and the French site, we'll be in a strong position to make sure that we can serve those clients. Integration is super important to us now because we really want to take the best of the culture and the practices in France and integrate them into the U.K. and the U.S. This can't be an imposition. This must be a synergistic sharing, and we're 100% focused on doing that. And we've already got a team in place. We've been allowed to, obviously, speak to our colleagues at ABL for a while now. Obviously there'll be a name change very, very quickly. [ We all want to be ] part of the Oxford Biomedica family. And it's about, like I say, taking the best and making them feel like they're part of the team rather than they've been acquired, which is what we're focused on in the first few months.

Great. And I think in 2023 probably one of the key, I guess, transformations that the company has undergone is changes to the commercial team, which you I think touched on briefly during the presentation. Could you maybe comment a little bit more about these in detail; and whether you think that, that sort of what's been driving the recent sort of growth that you've been able to disclose on kind of 50% growth in terms of contract orders and, I think, doubling of the amount of clients? Has that been a key factor?

Yes. So I mean, before, we were relatively successful in attracting especially big pharma clients just through the name of Oxford Biomedica and the fact that people move around between companies. And if you give them a good experience, they're happy to come with you for the second time and even the third time in some sort of instances, but actually getting out to the wider universe of sort of 500-plus clients in that universe, you really need feet on the ground. You need to be attending the right conferences. And you need to be offering your services in a cogent way, which is exactly what the definition of marketing is, right? What have you got, and how does it fit into the marketplace? And we've spent a lot of time under the stewardship of our new Chief Commercial Officer, Sébastien Ribault, who came from Merck Millipore, sort of formalizing what we think our USPs are; understanding where we're going to make the biggest impact, which conferences will make the biggest impact. Because there are these trade conferences throughout the year in throughout the world and you need to be able -- the right ones with the right people and you need to make the best use of your time. And Sébastien has really brought a discipline into this area which is a genuine commercial discipline rather than, like I say, a big licensing business development type approach that we previously had, so I would absolutely say it's made a significant difference. And we believe it will keep on making a difference because, now with the closing of ABL, this should open up a whole bunch of new -- a new bunch of clients to us in mainland Europe as well. So feet on the ground in the right place, numbers of people from 4 to 16 in the last 2 years and investment in marketing itself. And we really are aiming to make as much noise, in terms of share of voice [ of ] some of the bigger competitors like Lonza or in Catalent. And that's why we're winning clients, because we're really emphasizing the client centricity we have, the quality of the experience they'll have and obviously the track record that we have. And they're the things that we've identified that people get us to the RFP stage; get us beyond the RFP stage; and enable us to win more than our fair share of clients, which of course is always the goal. We know the market is going to grow, but we need to grow faster than the market. We need to win disproportionately more than the market growth.

Great, thanks, Stuart. I think we can wrap it up there. I think we're just at time, so thank you, everybody, for coming. And thank you again, Stuart, for the time.

Thank you.