Pacific Current Group Limited (PAC) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Thank you, and welcome to everyone whose here and those that are online. Thank you all for coming. Good morning. I'm Tony Robinson, the Chair of Pacific Current and the Chair of this meeting. As I said, I'm delighted to welcome you all to the Annual General Meeting of Shareholders of Pacific Current Group Limited. Thank you for your attendance today. I would appreciate it if all mobile phones can be turned off or put on silent. I'd also like to point out the emergency exits, which are clearly marked in the hallway outside this room. The time is now 10:00 a.m., and as we have a quorum present, I declare the Annual General Meeting open. I'll now introduce you to the directors. Joining me today is Paul Greenwood, managing Director, CEO and Chief Investment Officer. We're looking to add to that list of titles. Nonexecutive Directors, Jerry Chafkin down right at the end on my left; Melda Donnelly, who is also Chair of Audit and Risk; Gilles Guérin; and then Clare Craven, our company secretary and right of this end is Peter Kennedy who is also Chair of remuneration, nomination and governance committee. I thank each director for their support and contribution during the year. Others here today that make a tremendous contribution to our business of David Creswell, Ashley Killick, our Chief Financial Officer; David, our General Counsel and Chief Compliance Officer. Trent Erickson, our Chief Operations Officer, and I've already introduced you to Clare Craven, our Company Secretary. Do grab them, for those who are here don't hesitate to grab any of us or them at the end of the meeting if you've got any questions because, look, Chris, at the back of the room, Head of Sales for the region. So probably the most interesting person, so grab him at the arm. So finally, I know Rita Da Silva of Ernst & Young, our external auditor, is also here. Rita will be providing a reasonable opportunity to answer questions you may have about the conduct of the orders, the agenda. The agenda [ digitized media ] is set out on the screen. Before commencing with the formal matters before making today, I'll outline the formalities of the meeting and then hand over to Paul, who will present overview -- a brief overview of activities during financial year '22, comment on strategy and provide an outlook for the business. A question-and-answer session about the financial statements, the audit and general questions of management will be held before the resolutions are put to the vote of shareholders. Only shareholders and proxy holders participating in person will be able to ask questions. Any shareholder or a visitor who is listening to the audio webcast will not be able to ask questions, unfortunately. So formalities of the meeting -- today's media is made available for shareholders on our website, where you will also find the minutes of the 2021 AGM, our constitution and the 2022 annual report. I'll take the notice of as read and deal with the business of the meeting in the order of appears in the notice. But before we do that, I'll explain how voting and questions will work for the meeting. When you registered your attendance this morning, you will have been issued with an attendance card. Those with the blue card can ask the questions and vote at the meeting. Those with the yellow card can ask a question but not vote and visitors with a white card and not entitled to vote or ask a question. Voting. Your Board has determined that voting at the meeting will occur by way of a poll for all resolutions, which require both -- so that you have enough time to vote, I will shortly open voting and it will stay open until the meeting closes. As advised in the notes of meeting, either the original facsimile or electronic transmission of the proxy forms and any power of attorney or authority under which [ their ] sign have -- must have been received at least 48 hours prior to the date and time of this meeting, i.e., not later than 10 a.m. Australian Eastern Daylight Savings Time on Saturday, the 19th of November 2022. Any proxy form received after this deadline, including at the meeting is invalid, only shareholders attending in person and by proxy may vote on the resolution. As we formally put a resolution to the meeting, the proxies received in relation to that resolution will be shown on your screen. That number will include votes on undirected proxies cast by me as Chair. As set out in the notes of meeting, as Chair, I will vote all directed proxies in accordance with the directions provided by shareholders and or undirected proxies all those in favor of all resolutions. Today, we have appointed Tom [ Hewin ] of Computershare, the company's share registry, as the Returning Officer. He is just behind Ashley. After the votes have been counted and reviewed by the returning office of the results, and the meeting will be released to the ASX and available on our website. I now declare voting open on all items of business. You could now submit your votes to the returning officer at any time. Questions and answers. In relation to questions and comments, general business questions will be taken for item 1 and questions related to each other item of business will be taken following the introduction of that item. We ask that you keep your questions short and to the point so as many shareholders as possible have a chance to ask a question. If you wish to ask a question, please hold up your registration card and when invited to speak, please identify yourself and then ask your question. I'll either answer the question or pass it to the most appropriate person to respond that will almost always be Paul. As Chair, I reserve the right to rule out questions that do not relate to the business of the meeting. Please note that if we receive multiple questions on one topic, they might be amalgamated together for response. We will also not answer questions that are the same or substantially the same to questions that have already been answered. Otherwise, we'll endeavor to answer as many questions as we can. Business overview is Paul. I'll now hand over to your Paul.

Thank you, Tony. I will briefly touch upon the highlights for the FY '22 and then touch on current trends as we are seeing then offer some thoughts about the future. since some of this is a repeat from the annual results presentation, I'll move through the first part of this relatively quickly and focus more on the forward-looking comments. On Page 9. And I think we've renumbered the slides, but I think that gets it, right? This sort of underscore some of the highlights of the year. Obviously, one of the big highlights was the IPO of GQG. It was a large milestone for our company. It brought a significant realization event to us, but also make liquid a very valuable assets. And depending on price of that investment. Ultimately, we're looking at having including the unrealized portion we've made 70x to 80x to potentially 90x our money. So it's a real great investment. We wish they all work that way. Yes. It turns out I may not live long enough to see another one of this. So that was a big event during the year. We invested USD 35 million in a private real estate manager, Banner Oak Capital. We had strong growth across the portfolio, 19% FUM growth. And what's interesting about that is it was actually 18% if you exclude GQG. So it wasn't just GQG, it was very broad. We had received $6.2 billion of new commitments during the year, and that excludes GQG. Once again, excluding them because their assets are so large that it distorts some of the numbers. Obviously, the equity markets have not been kind recently. That's -- and so that has certainly hurt us a little bit because we have some long-only equity managers to have exposure or obviously have exposure to that. But our diversification across private capital strategies have largely muted the impact of that. We had solid growth in underlying revenues and earnings last year. However, that growth was, we think, understated because we were unable to report 12 months of earnings from GQG had we done that, that would have been double-digit revenue and earnings growth. Last year, performance fees grew dramatically largely to increased performance fees from Victory Park. Page 10, which I won't dwell upon, just highlights the results in both U.S. dollars and Australian dollars. It's worth noting that the majority of our revenues are U.S. dollars. Page 11 shows to summarize the growth in the net asset value of the company. It's important to note here that we believe this net asset value is conservative because some of our investments like Victory Park, Pennybacker and ROC are held at book value. So if their fair value is greater than their book value, which we believe it is, it would not show up on this chart. It would only show up. Basically, the net asset value only really only steps up here when we have some realization events for the non-fair valued assets. Page 13 shows the cumulative FUM growth for our managers across the portfolio. And what you see is that's a 3-year cumulative FUM growth at the end of day, our fate will be a function of whether our businesses are growing or not. And you can see that in general, that has been the case. The exception here is Blackcrane. Blackcrane is a small investment that will probably be wound down. That will not have any negative impact on our finances on a year-over-year basis. And then Page 15 touches on some of the trends we are seeing. And I think these are -- we haven't talked a lot about these or we've leased explicitly. But this probably won't be too surprising for people that follow this industry closely, but growth in alternatives, if you look where asset allocation is headed, it's increasingly going to alternative assets, increasingly private capital strategies within alternatives. And we've been sort of preaching that gospel for a few years now. And sort of -- the next sort of variation of that or sort of a sub trend is the democratization of alternative assets. And so what does that mean? It means that there are a lots of very interesting strategies that investment managers are working to bring down to the retail and the high net worth level. There's a few reasons for that. One is those assets are sort of under owned in -- or those strategies are under our owns in those segments. And frankly, those investment managers can get better fees than they can in the institutional. They're frankly particularly in Australia, where the institutional -- what institutions will pay for private capital strategies has sort of compressed fairly dramatically. No one likes to hear about this, but a decline in active Management on the stock picking industry is not a growth industry anywhere anymore. And it doesn't mean there's not great investment managers where we believe there are. We believe we own stakes in some. But it's not -- it doesn't have any secular tailwinds behind it. Frankly, I don't think it ever will again. So it's just because of the availability. In other words, I think it's a secular noncyclical phenomenon. A lot of that relates to the availability of inexpensive alternative products that can largely proxy many active management strategies. Once again, we still think there's room for exceptional investment managers, and so we don't -- we certainly continue to look at those. But think it's -- we need to be sober in our access for that. Another one, we haven't talked about a lot, but it's become more relevant very recently is pension de-risking. So what is -- what does that mean? It means that there's a -- if you look at traditional pension funds, not defined benefit funds, it really doesn't apply here in Australia as much as it does in U.S. and Europe. There is a move underfoot and there has been for a long time to what they call immunized those liabilities. And what that really means is they want to move some of their assets into fixed income strategies versus equity or more capital appreciation centered investments in order to have assets to more closely mirror the liability streams of their defined benefit funds. With interest rates popping up, you've seen an increase in activity of folks moving to immunize those liabilities. So the implication is to the extent we have defined benefit exposure in our portfolio, that could be -- we could be impacted. Once again, -- the most direct impact would happen in liquid strategies like GQG because you can change those allocations easier than you can with a private capital strategy because those allocations are locked up for multiple periods. And then the last one is rising asset management valuations. So we are in the business of investing in asset managers. So we are seeing pressure. There's a lot of capital that's been dedicated to our space at the large end of what we look at, we see valuations increasing. We think that in aggregate, this is a positive for us. And the reason for that is we tend to fish a little below where other people do. And so we can -- we think we can still find investments in our size parameters where we don't have to pay these higher valuations, and we think we may be a beneficiary of those higher valuations via the potential sale of part or all or some of our assets. That is not a foregone conclusion, but we know that there's a lot of interest in some of our assets. So we continue to believe that there is some possibility that as we move into next year that we could see some liquidity in portions of our portfolio. Go to the next slide. And this is just a market update, where we want to -- we want to help people understand where we have exposure to equity markets, for instance. And for those who know our story, you hear us talk about how we try to minimize that exposure and we have. But obviously, if we have investments in long, all the equity managers in the stock markets go down, that hurts us. Our biggest exposure there is GQG. That's not news to anyone. The good news there is their performance continues to be exceptional, and they continue to have sort of a more positive flow dynamic on the industry at large. And -- but we do have -- we have some -- EAM would be negatively impacted by declining markets and IFP would a little bit as well. Victory Park has a listed vehicle. We expect that where there's some equity in that listed vehicle. We expect the incentive fees from that listed vehicle in this year, this calendar year -- or I'm sorry, this first half that we're in now is first half of the fiscal year, we expect those to be down over last year. That's not to be confused with their carried interest or performance fees, which we have no change in our long-term assessment or even a short-term assessment. And then I think the -- there's some mitigate interest rates going up doesn't help any assets just sort of the way the new value asset. But we do have what mutes the impact of all of this -- of the sort of rising rates, rising inflation, decline in equity markets is, one, our diversification. That diversification includes many assets whose -- where the revenues are unrelated to market anywhere. So in other words, and there's some of our equity markets went down 90% tomorrow, we'd still get the same amount from paper investment parts. That's part of our strategy. I'd also note that rising interest rates to some degree, help our private credit managers like Victory Park Capital because they lend at variable rates. So to the extent there the credit of their investments, they get that assessment right. They'll actually earn greater performance fees as over time with higher interest rates. Moving on to Page 17. I think that's just operational -- a few comments on our operating outlook. These are only modestly tweaked I think, from our year-end results presentation. But this year, we'll see an increase in expenses, primarily due to increased travel and entertainment as we get back on planes and run around the world trying to execute our strategy. The other new development is our new line of credit on which we've already drawn USD 30 million. We expect to deploy capital into multiple investments this fiscal year with that capital. And despite a less hospitable market environment, we continue to believe our portfolios ex GQG will bring in somewhere between $3 billion and $5 billion of gross new commitments in this fiscal year, and we are well on our way to achieving that. Going on to the last page that I'll touch on, the financial outlook. We expect this year to actually be a good year primarily even despite what equity markets are doing, primarily on the back of what we expect to be a quite strong second half. This is consistent with what we said beforehand, but we have -- we have good visibility into the second half. And the reason we are confident relates to fundraising achievements that we have visibility into as well as the deployment of capital through some of our managers, most notably Victory Park, who starts earning revenue once they deploy capital. And so right now, if they have it and haven't deployed it, they don't get paid. But as the year progress -- progresses and as they deploy capital, their revenues will accelerate. So we continue to -- and on that note, we continue to believe that in FY '24, Victor Park will become our leading economic contributor, and our forecasts have it stay in that way sort of indefinitely [ after ] all things equal. And then I think you'll see us deploy capital throughout the year. There's always uncertainty around that and sometimes deals fall over investments fall over at the last minute, but we feel good about our pipeline and expect to deploy a significant amount of capital. So with that, I will end my remarks and hand it back over to Tony.

Thank you, Paul. I'll just add a couple of comments to that. One, GQG's a wonderful outcome for us as an investment. But the -- to hidden gem in the listing for me was that we often have to sell an asset for people to get sight of the real value of what we own, all of the sales we've made of assets have been significantly above fair value. And often, that only becomes transparent when we sell the listing of GQG allows you to see that without us having to sell down the holding. So it is just a nice little additional benefit from the listing of it. The other thing I'd just add to Paul's comment is a very positive outlook for '23. We've got good growth in all of the businesses as the fund flow annualizes and needs to deploy as Paul's made -- Paul has noted and also the annualization of the investments sort of what investments we've made partway through the year annualized for a full year's contribution in '23. And there's a quirk in this year's annualization related to GQG again, being that we could only recognize that was going to be held. But for the whole year, we can only recognize 9th, 12th of the earnings for the year. because of the brilliance of the accounting standards. So we have it as trade as I look at [ rate ]. We get the annualization of GQG as well. So '23 is looking a very good year for us. So back to the business of the meeting. We now move on to the formal business of the meeting, consideration of the reports. The first item of the business is the receipt and consideration of the 2022 Annual Report of Pacific Current Group Limited, and there is now resolution to be considered by shareholders related to this. The '22 Annual Report contains the financial report, directors' report and the independent auditor's report. Copy of the '22 Annual Report was made available on the company's website, the ASX platform and was sent to those shareholders who requested a copy. The financial statements have been approved by the directors and audited by EY. I'll take the annual report as read. I'll now open the -- for a minute to questions for the auditors questions. May we ask the auditors in relation to the conduct of the audit to the preparation and content of the audit report, the accounting policies adopted by the company and the independence of the auditors. So does anyone have any questions of Rita related to those reports. Rita is braced and ready. Okay. So no questions to the auditor was received prior to the meeting ever.

We did, however, receive a number of questions from shareholders prior to the meeting, and they all relate to 2 issues, which I'll now answer. The first is whether we can provide more transparency on the fair value of our investments. The second is on whether it's appropriate to introduce a share buyback. I'll give brief answers to these and then ask Paul if he wants to add anything to them. So the first one is the buyback. And I always say to people that our problem, if there's a problem in the business, it's that if you think of the management cost as a percentage of the assets under management and the asset under management is the net asset value of the business, our expenses as a percentage of them are high. So our goal is to hold those costs stable and to grow the assets under management by investing well and having realizations but see that those assets being traded at market price rather than at fair value. To do a buyback actually takes your asset base down and therefore, increases the implicit cost of managing the residual funds. So at this stage, it's not our intention to do a buyback, and that's the logic and reason for that. Fair value...

Can I add something there?

Yes.

On that, the other challenge we face is just a really practical one, which is -- our business model is engaging in transactions and so buying and selling assets. And so if we are ever close to buying a significant asset, that is material nonpublic information. And if we're about to do that, we can't go buy back our stock when that's outstanding or, for example, if someone has approached and made an offer to one of our portfolio companies, something totally outside our control, we can't -- that will once again preclude us from doing that. So practically speaking, I think we've had a window that even if we wanted to, probably once in 5 years have we've ever had a window where even [indiscernible] have done it. So it's just something the nature of our business makes that very unlikely that we will give you that.

Thank you, Paul. And the other one is fair value and the -- again, the quirk of the accounting standards are there certain of our assets that -- where there's a lift in the fair value or our assessment of the fair value, and we calculate fair values, but effectively the present value of future cash flows. And where that's for certain assets higher than the book value, we're not allowed to bring that to account and -- under the accounting standards. So there's a gap between our assessment of the aggregate fair value of all our investments and what you can see in the annual report. And the question is about can we be more transparent about what we have as those fair values? And we'll start doing that from the 30th of June. We'll provide a nice simple table showing that we want to try and do it till 31st of December just because the rigor that we apply to those is a little less because they're unaudited accounts and you're required to see whether there's a change in value rather than do a lot of work on actually establishing the value. So it will be the 30th June thing that we do each year, but we will start doing that from 30 June '23, providing a table log fair value and the movements in the fair value and whether they're recognizing in the balance sheet and whether they're recognizing the balance sheet by the balance sheet or by the P&L. So -- and I think you'll all find that helpful and interesting. Paul, do you want to add anything?

I would say that it will be -- so directionally, I think that will be very helpful. However, even once we provide fair values, I don't think -- keep in mind that's using a valuation methodology that is -- that auditors are comfortable with. I would not mistake that for that being an estimate of what those assets would sell for because we're -- because we're in the trenches and now and have a great -- good sense of what certain assets may transact at. I would expect the fair values that we ultimately share with the public to still be conservative by -- relative to what any transaction would occur.

But there they are the most defendable just to be clear everything -- we're comfortable that they are good estimates of fair value. And Paul's rightly pointing out, though, that whenever a transaction occurs, they generally occur significantly above the fair value on our balance sheet.

And that was GQG.

Another example of that in GQG.

Which was fair value and then was went public at 3x the fair value.

Yes. So any other questions anyone would like to ask on the general matters associated with the business. I'll ask again [indiscernible]?

I think you have lost my policy between the debt coming in that other questions. First of all -- so first of all, as we complement the Board and the management team [indiscernible] here as a shareholder amount of value-add over the year, particularly through GQG [indiscernible]. My question goes to whether or not any impact on the portfolio of the changing technology values in cryptocurrency. VPC or any of the businesses that you invest a upward [indiscernible].

As far as I know, no. The nice thing is Victory Park will invest in what they would call fintech companies, but they tend to -- they are a debt investor. So they could -- they might and I'm going to caveat this answer a little bit. But primarily, they're just loaning money and where there's the -- there is now that I think about it, there's a modest impact is Victory Park has several specs that they've sponsored. Some of those have -- are involved, is tangential to or involved in -- have some involvement in crypto, but that's I'd say those are sort of sort of foregone optionality as opposed to anything that impacts their sort of ongoing contribution.

And we try and highlight where there's a contribution to the P&L from a movement in the carry value rather than earnings. So you'd see that. And I think Victory Park might even have some warrants from some of the companies that they lend to because they're early stage. So there might be some movement there. We had a 2-day off-site on Thursday and Friday, the Board hasn't been together for nearly 3 years. So there's a chance to catch up and exchange ideas and deal with some issues about longer-term strategy. And we also had a person and a professor of finance from the Melbourne Business School in for half a day talking about crypto and blockchain and these are fascinating conversation because he was absolutely of the belief that it's an investable class, this is after the collapse of one of the exchanges. So it is -- it's a really interesting area. The consensus overwhelming, I'd say, the unanimous view by the Board was it's not investable class. So I don't think I'm putting words in anyone's mouth. So yes, we won't be looking at that as a class. Anyone else got any other questions. Alright. So there are no more questions, I'll now move on to the next slide of our business. These are the resolutions. Resolution 1. The first resolution of the meeting is the adoption of the remuneration report. Resolution 1 is an advisory resolution and does not bind the directors or the company. The remuneration report was contained within the 2022 annual report is available on the company's website and was posted to shareholders on request. I'll take the remuneration report as read. Further details about the resolution are also contained in the explanatory memorandum of the notice of meeting. The resolution is set out on the screen. Before putting a resolution to the meeting, I'd like to advise shareholders that the company will disregard any votes as stated in the voting exclusion statement related to Resolution 1 as set out in the notice meeting. The directors abstain in the interest of the governance from making a recommendation in relation to Resolution 1. Are there any questions or comments on this resolution? All right. If there are no questions -- as there are no questions, I'll now put the Resolution 1 to the meeting. Again, don't hesitate to fill in voting forms, you can do it at any time. And for all of them, don't wait for the resolution. You're welcome to wait, [ potentially ] you need to wait. The proxies received in relation to this resolution are shown on the screen. Please vote if you haven't already. So overall, we support for the resolutions. Having said that, there's probably a good number of additional votes in the room. And obviously, we'll be revising the Chairman's votes in favor of the resolution unless or otherwise directed. I'll now move to the next resolution. Resolution 2 and for each to begin to the [ disordinary ] resolution must be approved by a similar majority of the votes cast by shareholders present and entitled to vote on the resolution. Resolution 2, reelection of Melda Donnelly. Melda retires in accordance with the company's constitution and being eligible, offers herself for election as a Non-Executive Director of Pacific Current Group. Ms. Donnelly, a Chartered Accountant, is a founder and former chairperson in the center for our investor education, a specialist education and consultancy firms for executives in the Australian superannuation industry, institutional investment bodies in the financial services market. Ms. Donnelly's previous work experience includes serving as CEO of the Queensland Investment Corporation, Deputy Managing Director of ANZ Funds Management and Managing Director of ANZ Trustees. Melda is a Non-Executive Director of GQG Partners Inc. and a Chair of Coolibah Capital Investments Proprietary Limited. Melda has held a range of directorships of both Australian and international companies, including Nonexecutive Director of Ashmore Group plc, Trustee Director of UniSuper, Deputy Chair of the Victorian Funds Management Corporation and Chair of Plum Financial Services Nominee Proprietary Limited and a member of the Investment Committee and HESTA Super Fund. Further information in relation to Melda's background and experiences in the notice of meeting. Goodness me, we kind of miss much. Melda, clearly right, this [indiscernible]. The resolution is set out on your screen. The directors with Melda's standing recommend shareholders both in favor of the reelection of Melda Donnelly as a Director of Pacific Current. Melda is a terrific part of the of the board and makes an enormous contribution. So we're delighted to be recommending to you. Are there any questions or comments? If there are no questions, I'll now put Resolution 2 to the meeting. The proxies received in relation to this resolution is shown on the screen. We welcome now to vote for that again. As I said, in both obviously at any time and any of these resolutions. Now move to the next resolution, reelection of Gilles Guérin as a director. Gilles Guérin retires in accordance with the company's constitution and being eligible offers himself for election as a Non-Executive Director of Pacific Current Group. He was formerly the CEO of BNP Paribas Capital Partners, where he worked for the past 11 years, developing the alternate investment capabilities of that group. He previously served as Chief Executive Officer and President of Natixis Global Associate and Executive in Natixis AM North America. We also hold the executive and senior leadership position as HDF Finance, AlphaSimplex, IXIS AM and Commerz Financial Products. Mr. Gilles Guérin has more than 20 years' experience in capital markets and investment management. This includes core cross-asset class experience by the equities, fixed income and commodity markets for the specific focus on alternative strategies and hedge funds, further information in relation to Gilles' background in experiences in the notice of meeting. The resolution is set out on your screen -- on the screen. The directors with Gilles abstaining, recommend shareholders both in favor of reelecting him as a Director of Pacific Current Group. Again wonderful to have a Gilles on the board. He makes a terrific contribution. As Gilles is based in France. And so it brings a European perspective as well as a global perspective to it, which is enormously helpful and is the kindest of the directors undoubtedly because we have to schedule meetings that fit in with the time zones of Seattle and L.A. and Melbourne and Paris. And Gilles is the one that takes the ugly time each time. So it makes a terrific contribution and other at some personal costs. So we're delighted to recommend him to you. Any questions? If there are no questions, I now put Resolution 3 to the meeting. The proxies received in relation to this resolution are shown on the screen. Again, it's mark for, against or abstain. I move on to the next resolution, resolution 4. Approval of benefits to specific employees on the cessation of employment in certain circumstances or on transfer of undertaking or property of the company. The next resolution of the meeting is to consider and if thought fit to approve benefits to specific employees on their cessation of employment in certain circumstances or on transfer of undertaking or property of the company. Section 200B act of the private company from providing the benefit to an employee in the managerial or executive office in connection with his or her retirement from or other cessation of office without shareholder approval and the Section 200E. Similarly Section 200C, this is way more detail than most of you are hoping for, but Section 200C act say that the prohibitor company from providing a benefit to an employee in the managerial or executive of in connection with the transfer of the whole or any part of the undertaking or property of the company. Accordingly, shareholder approval is being sought to allow the early vesting of options annual performance rights or a payment to specific employees on the value of some. All of those optional performance rights in certain circumstances for the detail of this resolution is set out in the notes of meeting. The resolution is set out on your screen. Before putting resolution forward to the meeting, I'd like to advise shareholders that the company will disregard any votes as stated in the voting exclusion statement related to Resolution 4 as set out in the notice of meeting. The directors recommend you vote in favor of Resolution 4. This to me is a very simple one. It's extraordinary that the corporation does what it does in this area. I find it along with a few other bits quite puzzling that the boards don't retain the right to do this. I always use the example of someone traveling to London out of Seattle and they have a serious health issue while they're working and therefore, we'll find it hard to return to work. But obviously, the event is a product of the work that they're doing, the stresses and strains of those sorts of travel events. And the Board is prohibited from allowing the vesting of the LTI entitlement even in those sort of circumstances. And that's really what we're looking for here is where people are retiring for good reason because that's the only time that the Board would use its discretion here, where they're retiring for good reasons or where the company has taken over the board think it's appropriate that they get. So we are happy to recommend you those in favor of the resolution. Are there any questions?

I'd like to say [indiscernible] for the [indiscernible] or recent years as I said has taken a resolution. I [indiscernible] 3 years [indiscernible] for 3 years or enrolling recommendations coming forward to able to [indiscernible] what's the...

Great question. What we're doing here is getting authority from the shareholders to use our discretion as they apply to the instruments on issue at this moment. So if we issue new instruments, we'd have to come back and talk to shareholders about those business supplies to the instruments and therefore, the life of the instruments that are on issue at the moment. So the performance rights and options at those individuals hold as of today. Any other -- does that -- any other questions? Anyone's call? All right. If there are no other questions, I'll put Resolution 4 to the meeting, proxies received in relation to this resolution as shown on the screen. Please now complete your forms if you haven't previously done so. I'll again ask because that's the last resolution. Is there any other questions anyone would like to ask about any other part of the proceedings or the business or the outlook for the business? All right. Ladies and gentlemen, that concludes the discussion and voting on the resolutions for the meeting. The voting system will close at the end of the meeting once voting has been closed, all voting will be final and cannot be changed. Could you please check that you've cast your votes on an oral resolution, you're turning off so will collect your old votes as you -- as it comes around. [Voting]

All right. Just -- [ Tim ] tells me that everyone's lodged their votes. But I'll just make sure has anyone not launched their votes? Terrific. That concludes the business as set out in the notice of meeting. On behalf of the Board, I'd like to thank you for your support and attendance and participation today. Polls take some time to count to obtain the final results as advised earlier, after votes have been counted, the results of the poll will be released to the ASX as soon as possible. Please stay around as long as you'd like. We'll be here for a little bit. Look forward to talking to you all, and I now close the meeting. Thank you all.