Pakka Limited ($516030)

So good evening, everyone. On behalf of the entire Pakka team, I'd like to extend a very warm welcome to all of you for our quarter 4 investor call. Thank you for joining us today. Before we begin the presentation, please allow me to introduce our leadership team. Mr. Ved Krishna, Group Lead; Mr. Mayank Jindal, Manufacturing Business Head, Mr. Shubham Tibrewal, Food Services Business Head; Ms. Neetika Suryawanshi, Finance. Also joining us today is Mr. Himanshu Kapoor, who is the Non-Independent and Non-Executive Director. Based on Board's recommendation, we have asked him to step in to this call to address queries related to our recent funding. He will be taking us through the details for the same and addressing queries regarding the same at the end of the session. My name is Pranay, and I lead the Brand & Marketing function at Pakka and we'll proceed with the presentation now. And I'll request people to please bear us for the time of presentation, and we will take questions later. So over to you, Ved, to start off -- to kick off the presentation.

Namaskar, to all the investors, and this is an important call for us because we realized that there have been a lot of challenges in the last year. And of course, in the last quarter as well. But it's important that we address those challenges upfront. So we have a lot of learnings from the last year, which I want to start with, and then, of course, we can take it forward from there. So first and foremost, what we realized was that there was a challenge that came in because of our lack of funding that we had kind of arranged. The idea was that there'll be a couple of equity investors who come in and then the rest will come from bank. But what we realized was the faltering of the share price led to one investor not honoring the warrants, which meant that we had to scramble for funding. That has been effectively put in place now, but it, of course, took us back significantly. It also took over a lot of management bandwidth to be able to arrange this. The second was that, of course, it is again related to funding. If you don't have money in the bank, everything slows down. And because of that, there was a challenge in the speed of the project execution. This is a huge project, and we are trying to actually set up 4 plants simultaneously, which is not an easy endeavor for any team. It has gone forward. We will also show you the significant progress that the project team has made, but it also meant that the lack of fund flow and some challenges within the -- with some suppliers led to a little bit of delay in the project execution. There has been a lag in product development, which you have pointed out before. We are definitely working on it. There are significant changes that we are making as we go forward, and we will discuss that. But what we found was that there was a lot of focus that we had to bring towards commercialization. And those are still happening, but we see that the speed at which we would have liked to do it has been lagging. So there is a learning there. We have certain limited resources, and we can utilize them in certain ways. And what we realized was that we had spread ourselves thin. Of course, you guys also pointed it out, but we felt that maybe we could do multiple projects at the same time, but that also led to significant reduction in bandwidth. So we have narrowed down and made our focus India, to stabilize India first, and we will do that before we take up anything else. So that will help us gain momentum here. There has been some movement in the team, as you have noticed as well. We are working on more solidity towards team. Mayank has, of course, joined us as our Manufacturing Business Head, and we are excited to have him. He comes with a very strong background of over almost 30 years in the industry, worked with JK for a significant period. And Mayank, maybe when you start talking, it will be -- we haven't put in a slide of your introduction and we realize that this is your first call. So I think it will be good if you just give the investors a little bit of your background, I'm sure a lot of them have already looked it up. But yes, over to you, Mayank. Let's start with the review, and then I'll come back towards the end.

Yes. Thank you very much. Let me introduce myself first before we go to the business performance as Ved said. Ved, thank you very much. This is Mayank. I have over 30 years of -- in fact, over 35 years of experience in the industry. I have mainly with a major integrated mills in India and abroad. My major tenure was almost 2 decades with the JK Paper, one of the very prominent paper manufacturer in India. In addition to this, I had served in Thailand for about 6 years. And my last assignment was in Indonesia, was with the Apple Fine Group, one of the largest manufacturer globally in all the segments of the pulp and paper. And I recently joined just 2 months back [Technical Difficulty] exactly 2 months back [indiscernible] 2 months today . [indiscernible] something is wrong. I kept it on, but I really do not know what the issue with the camera.

Maybe there is a slider on the top of the camera, you have to slide it open.

We can tackle it after the [indiscernible] keep going.

Okay. Go to the next slide. Okay. There's a few highlights for the quarter 4 performance. And here, you can see that our revenue has improved by 8% over the last year same quarter and 4% over the quarter 3 performance. So that shows some indication that we are coming on right track as the revenue is concerned. And PBT side, yes, there was a negative and there are various factors, which I'll be covering in the subsequent slides with more details. If you see on the overall financials, yes, there was a dip of around 13% on the overall year. And the major reason was that we had taken a major shut in one of the machine. I'll explain you more in details in the subsequent slides on that also. This is more about the Wrap & Carry business, specifically, which we do from the Ayodhya facility. If we see the quarter 4 performance, here also, there was a 4% up in the quarter 4 over the last year same quarter and 6% up over the quarter 3 performance. So that's how this was consolidating well. Again, there was a dip in the -- at the PBT level, 16%, 17%. But this is an indication -- I mean, this is far better than overall year [indiscernible], particularly for the Wrap & Carry, but I'll share you the reasons for this also in the subsequent slides. Go to the next page. So this is the overall year performance, INR 303 crores for Wrap & Carry only. So here, there was a volume drop of 17%, as I said, one specific reason of the machine modification shut. And the same has impacted on the PBT also to almost 50% drop. Next. So challenges that we see. Actually, the good thing is there was not too many challenges, which we faced in this year. One was the PM3 outage. That -- it was a planned shut. We planned for a 20-day shut, but incidentally it has thinking longer and took almost 40 days to complete this one. So PM3 was our major machine, the highest capacity machine, which is contributing almost 50% of the total value. So this has impacted severely and the impact only for the PM3 outage was INR 11 crores on the PBT. And another was the pricing impact. See, there are many new entrants in the market and they are trying to establish. So there was a sort of pricing war. So they made the market a little tough on that. And because of those NSR, we had an impact of around INR 16 crores. Now way forward we see that how to go ahead on this. So this PM3 part, still it is continuing with the modification we have done, but some capacity increase, which was expected, was not done. So this we have planned in this month. We'll be doing in the fourth week of June. And this will help us increasing our production by 10 tonnes a day. And this will give a boost to around INR 8 crores on our PBT alone. And in addition to this, we are taking many other measures, the cost optimization and ramp-up and OGR that we are outsourcing and that we're going to increase and go up to the 500 TPM -- 500 tonnes a month. So gradually we will be increasing it. And launch new grade so that the market competition and those things we can cover up and enter with a better contribution products. And in this time, with this, we'll be able to go for a higher contribution product in the product mix in PM1 and PM2. One or 2 products we have already tried and giving you better results. Go to next? Yes. That's all, I think, from the Wrap & Carry side. Over to you, Shubham.

Thank you, Mayank sir. Good afternoon, everyone. I'll walk you through the performance and the highlights of the Food Services Business unit. If you can move on to the next slide? So here, we have some good news, which is our revenue for Q4 was significantly higher when we compared it to the same quarter last year. So we clocked approximately INR 17 crore versus INR 11.5 crores. Quarter-on-quarter growth was not that much better. But that is because for us, Q3 is one of our strongest quarters because of the festive season and usually [indiscernible] for there are some impacts of [indiscernible] and stock taking due to which buying is slightly reduced. But all in all, our revenue trend is extremely positive. The changes that we've put in place in the business over the last year are starting to bear fruit. In terms of the PBT, there is an impact -- sorry, Pranay can you just turn the last slide. Thank you. On the PBT, there is a negative impact, and this negative impact is due to some one-off items. So I will go through them in the subsequent slide. But this is not reflective of our true operational performance of the core business. We can move on to the year-on-year numbers. Thank you. So like I said, we have managed to achieve significant growth over the last year in terms of the top line. The bottom line is impacted. We will go through the reasons of how much of this is from the core business and how much is it from nonrecurring or one-off actions which were taken in Q4. So what did drive our higher revenue and what were the changes that we were able to implement [indiscernible] the result we achieved can be summarized here. Those, of course, not all, but I think these are the main highlights for the year. So we grew our volumes significantly from -- by 20% from 2,600 tonnes last year to 3,100 tonnes this year. This added INR 8 crores of top line for us. This is net revenue. We did this by expanding significantly our presence pan-India. So we unlocked what we call unlock new territories. So we made our products available in 25 new cities. And especially on the B2C front, we were able to get significant results and get a lot of momentum because we were able to grow this specific channel, which is, of course, our highest margin channel by 2.5x. So we went from approximately INR 2.5 crores last year to INR 6.5 crores this year. So now why were the losses so elevated? It can be explained in 2 parts. So we have roughly INR 3 crores of losses which are coming from the plant and the manufacturing. So we were facing some issues with the equipment we have in the plant. And due to that, we had even taken a shut of certain machines in the middle of the year, and that had a significant impact on the overall cost of production because there's a lot of equipment which is running in the back end and we have a lot of fixed costs. So when the output dipped, the costing of the rest of the products also went high. There were a lot of changes and improvements which were attempted at the plant to upgrade the machines, fix the machines or they were requiring higher maintenance than usual. And because of this, there was some losses which we incurred at the plant level, which were not planned. There were also some one-off noncash items for INR 3 crores, which was incurred and this was relating to basically clearing some slow-moving inventory and hold stocks, some write-offs of, again, old packaging materials, inventories. We kind of did an inventory thorough cleanup of our books and reconciliations of the inventory and the stocks. And we had also booked some old project development costs which were there in the books, but we decided to write them off so that we can have a clean start as we start this new year. Our plan of action is we want to build on the growth which we have created last year, the momentum which we have created and the network that we have built. So we again want to keep growing our B2B business. And the way to do that is to, again, have more and more -- ensure higher availability of our products. So again, target of 25 new cities and also increase the number of touch points in each city, so what we call our reseller and distributor network. And we're, of course, working on winning back and acquiring some big accounts, which helps us kind of move volumes. Retail is where we are seeing the most success and where we also feel there is a lot of potential in the market. So we will continue to build on this B2C business. There are still a lot of retail points -- touch points where we are not yet present. So we are expanding. The target for the end of this current financial year is to be present at every single major quick commerce, e-commerce, modern trade and big-box store that's available to us. Most of these actions have already been launched. So we are fairly confident that we will get very good growth here. And again, this is the highest margin journey for us. Another initiative that we have taken and in light of what I mentioned in the previous slide relating to the manufacturing-related losses is to scale the business through outsourcing sites. So these are sites where we are supplying our own pulp, and we are getting our own products manufactured. So we are using our plants in different locations. This has many advantages. So it reduces the cost of our products. It optimizes freight because currently, we are manufacturing in Ayodhya and shipping pan-India. Now we will have manufacturing sites all around the country, and we will be able to serve markets locally. This is expansion without CapEx because it is capacity, which already exists. So we will be able to scale the business without having to invest a whole lot into it. And of course, it's much faster to execute and to build capacity. So that's the whole idea. We go asset-light and we basically add just incremental EBITDA to our P&L. We want to -- we will be undertaking new initiatives as well this year to diversify our revenue streams so that we basically come from new product categories, which we are launching. This includes a range of products in the Food Services category, which our customers require, of course, continue to build the delivery range because as you may all be aware, it's a market which is growing very, very strongly in India and we see great potential for our products in there. And we've also started to look more closely to the U.S. opportunity because our team there has opened a significant pipeline for us. So there is very strong demand in that market, and we are exploring how we can capture that. That's it from my side.

Thanks, Shubham. I'll take the innovations too. There is a lot of effort that continues to be done on the innovations side. The first one, of course, is that we are very excited about our new machine coming on stream in the next -- trials should become bigger in the next 3 to 4 months, and it's taking shape, as you'll see in some of the pictures that we are going to show. And of course, the idea is to build the right base paper for barrier coating in the future. So the idea is to get the [indiscernible] product right. So we are actually in the middle of working with certain European pilot machines, and we're going to take some trials within the next couple of months to get the product and provide it to the customers before the machine comes on stream. The non-metallized flexi, we have reached a stage where we are now able to take a pilot trial. Right now, we were kind of running on smaller, what we would call, lab pilots, which are continuous machines and numerous trials have happened. We've taken the cost down significantly and the efficacy up as well. And now we are relatively confident that we will be taking this product and running it on a certain kind of scale where we can actually provide customers with material and then start coating. Of course, the other one, which we have been focused on and it's taken again longer than we had envisaged is the delivery containers. We actually did a soft launch at Ahar this last quarter. The response was excellent. There is some challenge in terms of costing, which we see. But that said, we will do Phase 1 kind of launch within this quarter, which is basically working towards making sure that a smaller production of a certain number of products is done in our facilities, and we start launching into the market. And of course, this should lead to a larger expansion as well. A large significantly -- significant step that we have taken now is to move our Bangalore facility to Ayodhya and that has been done after a lot of deliberation because, of course, the main challenge for us -- or the reason why we were in Bangalore was mainly talent. So we have talked to the team. We do think most of our team will get retained, and we can invest much more heavily in Ayodhya rather than being on a rented side. And that also enables it to be closer to the operations team, which means that we are working towards faster application and commercialization. So this is a step that will be carried out within the next 2 months as well, which means that our innovation site for now is also going to be Ayodhya. So those are the big innovation highlights. And of course, there are many others which we continue to work on.

Over to you, Himanshu sir, for funding efficacy.

Yes, I think good afternoon, everybody. Ved had mentioned and right in the month of October, the investors, Carnelia and SBI had blessed us with this project. But due to -- as [indiscernible] said, the fall in the share price, I think the warrants could not be subscribed by the Carnelia group. Although we are thankful to those investors for at least investing into the company. So when it came to the board, somewhere around October or November, the challenge became was that a INR 73 crore warrant, which tantamount to about INR 146 crores to come from the bank and an escalation of roughly about INR 75 crores, totally brought a INR 300 crores shortfall. So in the month of November when we were doing the Board meeting, it was imperative for the Board that somebody gets involved and come so that we can come out with a solution. I think the bigger challenge in the entire game was to convince the bankers, which was the step A1 that if they would have given the pari-passu, then it would have been a smaller funding to the extent of INR 100 crores. The management team tried its level best, but the bankers did not convinced to give pari-passu to the new lender coming into place. And that is why we had to go into a total funding of overhauling the entire project because the essence of the project lies in the project getting started rather than just starving for money in the entire project. And all our wealth and everything lies only in the fact faster the project is implemented and it starts generating revenue because it's already been roughly now 2 years -- 2, 2.5 years since the date we launched the entire Jagriti project. So the essence of the funding, I would just like to point out. So basically, the refinancing done was done by Neo Group, which replaces the existing bankers. The revised terms. The way we have done it in terms of is the cash outflow for the next 24 months roughly becomes the same. I mean even if there is an interest or repayments, which would have started for the bankers, those are -- the cash outflows have been carved out in a mechanism that the company doesn't suffer. So as a part of the revised terms, we get a 4-month moratorium. And there is no principal repayment for 16 months. And in this -- after even the 4 months for the next 12 to 18 months, there's a 12% interest. However, the effective rate will be 16.95%. The facility drawn is in form of debentures of INR 500 crores. Neo group also puts in equity, which the shareholders have already approved to the extent of INR 30 crores and the promoter infuses INR 85 crores in terms of equity. The security that has been given against this is first charge on the fixed assets and the second charge on current assets and personal and corporate guarantees of the promoters as well as the associate companies and the pledge of shares of promoters.

Thank you. Over to you, Mayank, sir, for project updates.

Can you play the video? This is our project site -- [indiscernible] side. And this is the PM4 machine that we are building up. This is the recovery boiler. And this's the power boiler and the turbine. This is the some videos during the erection time. This erection already completed. Okay. So -- in the project Jagriti, actually, it has taken various phases. So we are putting up a brand-new paper machine, which would be giving us a very specialty, the food-grade paper. In addition to that, to support this, there will be a new recovery boiler. There is a new power boiler and there is a 15-megawatt [indiscernible] so that we can enhance a little of our pulp production as well. Because right now, our recovery is there -- is a bottleneck on the pulp, so it will give us some boost in the pulp production as well. So that entire, it will be balanced to meet the complete pulp demand for our new machine. Some modification work in our pulp and fluid treatment part, which was taken or already has been completed. And PM3, as I said, this one small pending work that will be completed in this month. And power plant and the recovery boiler will be commissioned in the month of July. So these are ready and the testing work is going on. And the machine that we are expecting -- though there was some delay in the funds availability, but we are still expecting by end of September. This machine will also be producing.

Okay. Thank you, Mayank, sir. Over to you, Ved for the next year's plan.

Great. So of course, I understand that there must be concerns from the investors looking at last year's performance, but we are confident of bringing things back on stream, and these are the big heavy goals for next year. Let's start with those Pranay. So of course, first and foremost, we realize as a team, we have to work really hard to effectively commission project Jagriti, which part of it is already commissioned. But I think in the next month, we will see another couple of power plants like our power plant and recovery coming on stream. And in another 3 to 4 months, we should start commissioning the paper machine, which takes a couple of months for stabilization, but the paper should be out. And as I kind of confirmed before that we will be doing some pilot runs as well in other machines so that we can start putting the new product out in the market because it is going to be a little more unique than what we have right now in the market in general. So that's the big one, and we are all focused on that. And of course, as Himanshu said, the money is in the bank now. So a lot of things which were lagging behind changes, and we can move much faster and push our vendors to finish the job. So the other one, which Shubham mentioned, and we are doing it on both ends. I think Mayank inferred it to it as well. What we are seeing is that there is a certain number of products that our customer needs, and we are trying to do it not just organically but inorganically. So the Food Services team is building a network of almost 10 suppliers who we are going to provide pulp to and offtake products from. The big decision that we have taken now is that the Ayodhya plant will be refurbished completely, which means that all the equipment that is there right now is going to be removed, sold or leased out to the current manufacturing facilities. And we are going to do a cleanup and look at new technologies at the right time when we actually have funds, we are going to bring the plant back in. We do plan to produce Food Services, but it might have to take a pause at our end. That's it, even on the paper side, we are continuing to build our strength in an asset-light model. We have now reached over 300 tonnes of outsourced grease proof. We are bringing -- we'll bring it to about 500 tonnes per month. We will also try to see if we can enter the lower [indiscernible] segment through another tie up and as well as flexible packaging through outsourced at least until we have our plant running. So Shubham talked about it, and I understand there must be a little bit of concern, and I'm sure there'll be questions later. On the Food Services business. We have discussed in depth with the team, and we feel strongly that we have to continue. We have actually even discussed it at the Board, and the Board is also very clear that this is a segment that we don't want to -- we want to make sure we want to keep building on this segment. So we are going to keep transforming it. And I know like what we've seen is there's a lot of passion with Shubham at the helm and the team there. And we are quite confident that this year we'll see a significant transformation and profitability in the Food Services division. So of course, we know, and I'm sure there will be anxiety around the new products. This has been a challenge in terms of speed. But as we stand today, we are ordering machines to actually start building the delivery range at scale and to the Phase 1 of expansion. The flexi we are going into pilot runs now. It is a delicate, interesting, difficult and possible chemistry that we've been working with. But we are close to at least doing some significant trials at the global stage, and we are hoping for more significant news in the coming quarters. And of course, as you see, there is only that much we can do on the market side. So our team, especially the finance team has taken up a very strong cost optimization effort, which helps us overall because in difficult times, you can focus more on the cost side, and we are taking up different costs, and we are kind of looking at each one with a magnifying lens. There is going to be at least a significant cut on the cost side so that we can transform the business and make sure that we deliver on the objectives that we have set out to and also on the trust that you've bestowed upon us. Over to you, Pranay. You're muted. Pranay, you're muted.

So sorry. So thank you, Ved. Before we move on to the questions. Neetika you want to share the investor meet plan with the...

Sure. Sure. Thank you. Just as awaited, we propose to an in-person investor meet with the next quarter results. My team will revert to you with the final details, the agenda and the arrangements. Thank you, Pranay, back to you.

Just adding to Neetika. The request from the investors has been, and we are also very excited to host you in Ayodhya. So the target is that we will commission the machine and say, as Neetika said, in terms of next quarter, so say, when we end the quarter in September. After that, we are going to, say, the October meeting, it will not be an investor call or it could be an investor call which is hybrid. So we will request a lot of the investors to come over. It will give you a lot of confidence when you actually come to the plant and see the action on the ground. So that's the effort that we will commission the plant or soft commission the plant and then have you over at the plant in for the next investors call.

[Operator Instructions] Mr. Costo, you can unmute and ask your question.

So because of all the back and forth and change in your guidance over the last few quarters, I'm kind of confused. So now as we look at it from today's point of view, from a product basket, what will the company be focusing on? Is the R&D initiatives continuing for the metallized and nonmetalized flexible packaging products as has been earlier communicated. Could you just run us through what the company has stopped focusing on? What is it continuing to focus on? What is the product opportunity of all these R&D initiatives? That's the first question. And the second -- should I mention the second question now? Should I...

Go ahead.

And the second question is the instrument, I really want to understand why the promoters and using money through optionally convertible instruments. The no I'm asking is because the share price has been volatile and we're still the company is still not in that trajectory of which instills investors with the confidence that the pressure appreciate. So in case you put in 25% of your funds and then a stock price falls then that's not really painting a picture because you won't convert your warrants. So I just wanted to understand why [indiscernible] convertible instruments and then that's not a realistic picture, this INR 85 crores, INR 90 crores, whatever this amount is that you are looking to invest. So these are the two questions.

Great, [indiscernible]. Great questions, and I'm glad you brought up the flexi first. So of course, that remains front and center for us. What we've realized is a couple of things in the last few quarters, and we've been working, again, as you are aware, with lots of global converters, global companies. And there are 2 parts of the puzzle. The first is that when does one bring in the coating inwards. So the only time we can do it is when we have the chemistry solved. So the way this works is that the paper gets made. There's a certain amount of quoting that you do on the machine. That we will continue to do, and that closes the -- what we call closing the sheet. So basically, the porosity of the paper, which is natural, becomes non-porous. So it will not have any kind of oil or water seeping through. But for a flexible pack, you need way more, you need more barrier chemistry. So what has happened is that over the last couple of years, we've been looking at numerous chemistries. It has been relatively complex because what happens is that there is a certain amount of viscosity, which is basically the kind of -- the way the chemical flows. And what happens is that as soon as you change temperatures, there's a lot of challenge because these are a lot of new age chemicals. So what we realized was that there is -- and as soon as you buy a machine, it's designed for a certain viscosity. So what happens is that the drying area is determined based on what 2 factors, solids and viscosity in a chemical. So what has happened is that we are not at a stage yet where we can be totally sure that it is going to do the production that we wanted to because these are new age kind of chemistries that we've been working with. So what we have decided is that let's make the base paper, which is non-porous, designed for a flexible pack continue to feed the market with that product and try and find usages through the converters to use that product. Now the second part of it is -- within the same question, is the converters appetite. So what happens is when you try and quote barrier chemistry yourself, you're taking a certain amount of business away from the converter. So many times, they don't want to -- you kind of cannibalize your relationship. So what happens is that they are not that keen on that happening. So we don't want to do it until we are very, very sure of that aspect. So we are now tying up with converters for them to quote and print the paper rather than us trying to do it. So that's the actual situation on the flexi non-metallized side. On the metallized side, we continue to grow the market, push the market. But of course, our hope remains that we are going to keep shifting towards non-metallized, which is always the case. We ideally don't -- so again, just to repeat Pakka's 4 principles: Home compostable, recyclable in the paper stream, marine and terrestrial safe. So that's the challenge, right? The last 2 that what happens is metallized will oxidize in the climate. It might even recycle. That's not a challenge. But when an animal or a fish consumes it, we find that questionable. So it was always a challenge in terms of the chemistry from a metallized aspect. But that said, we will continue to push it until we have a solution on the non-metallized side. Totally focused on it. We are definitely not giving up on that direction. It has to be done. As you may have noticed, we've been on the table with global companies on LN McArthur Foundation for the small sachet objective, and we are going to keep building on those relationships as well. It has taken longer, and we are deeply -- but we remain deeply committed to that direction. I'll let Himanshu step into the instrument a little more. But just from my side, we will not subscribe to the warrant. So the challenge is that as promoters, we can only creep 5% every year. So that's why that has been done as an optionally convertible instrument, but Himanshu can address that a little.

Yes. I think [indiscernible] Ved answered that question well I think. The basic reason is that once the investor comes into place, there are certain guidelines and frameworks within which the investors operate. But when a promoter comes into place, there is no challenge at the end of the day, puts has all has taken to the company. And that is how he looks at moving -- I mean, growing the company and taking the company forward. So I don't think that's a challenge. That's just an instrument and even to tell you, I mean, the SEBI decided price was about INR 92, which was coming as per SEBI formulae, and the money has been put in at INR 110. The primary reason for that was that the book value of the company was INR 109 at that point of time. So any way the promoter has put his skin in the game by giving a premium of 20% to the investors, which was there. And I think slowly and steadily -- because the money is already there in the war chest. It's not that the money is not there in the war chest. So at any point of time, the warrants will not fail. I hope I've been able to answer your question.

Mr. [indiscernible], you can ask your question now.

I have two questions. So one is related to funding. So I think the total amount of NCD is INR 540 crores, right, and not INR 500. So I just wanted to know what is the end use of this 540 going towards. So one would be towards refinancing. So what is the refinance outstanding as on the 31st March. So I could see it's somewhere around INR 307 crores as is appearing in the balance sheet. But there are some INR 50 crores, INR 60 crores of other financial liabilities and other liabilities of another INR 52 crores. So this out of the INR 540 crores, how much would go towards refinancing and how much would go towards your incremental debt requirements, which were there in the project? And secondly, I mean, how do we cater toward incremental working capital requirements? Because once PM4 comes into picture, you'll have another, whatever, INR 100 crores, INR 150 crores of additional working capital limits coming in, right? So how do we tie up that? Because, again, we've given all our mortgages and pledges to Neo right. So just wanted to understand that part. So that's my first question. And second, like you said, you are phasing out all the old machines of truck. So does it imply that the volumes of truck will go down for the next 2, 3 quarters? I mean, I just wanted to understand that a bit detail.

Neetika, do you want to tackle the first bit and then Shubham.

Himanshu is doing that. Go ahead sir.

No, no. You go ahead, Neetika.

Okay. Okay. So basically, you were right on the outstanding that is a pairing. So the usage of the farm will definitely be repayment of banks first. and then the rest of it goes towards the project. In terms of the working capital talk before the season to be prepared for the machine to start even now. And as we go forward, we would definitely be looking at that. In terms of working capital requirement, I think another differentiation here, GG, would be then the first charge would be on the carnets when it comes to working capital lenders. And that will be -- even for them, the only difference is that the pledge is no longer there, which in any case was not with them. So for them, it's just the working capital in first charge. Over to you, Shubham.

Himanshu, you might want to add here.

Yes. Yes. I just want to add. So Jeet, INR 500 crores is the NCD, INR 40 corres is the green shoot. I mean that's a question that has been built into the system basically. And that green shot will always be at the option of the lender. So INR 540 crores, INR 40 crores is green shoot because in totally see -- just see the dynamics of the project. I mean, INR 200 crores, INR 210-odd crores has already been invested out of equity and internal accruals and the additional INR 530 and INR 85 crores should be sufficient enough to cover up the project outflow as well as the GST that goes on top of it because GST is not a part of the project, but that comes as an accrual over a period of time. So the NDO is definitely -- so you said it is roughly about -- including the LCs issued is roughly about INR 350 to INR 370-odd crores. And the balance goes only in project Jagriti. So the entire effort of the management team basically here is to ensure that project Jagriti comes to a closure and starts giving benefits at the earliest. So that is how this entire thing has been devised. On the working capital front, Jeet, let me clear one thing. See, our basic working capital requirement on the balance sheet is only for bagasse as well as for husk. the bulking capacity in this project has only increased from 130 to 180 tonnes. Balance, finished stock anyway, the company keeps only for 15 to 20 days in terms of paper and about 25 to 30 days in terms of molded products basically. So the 50 tonne increase of bagasse, if you tantamount into money, I mean per day, it would yield an additional working capital requirement of INR 20 crores, INR 25 crores, maximum INR 30-odd crores, plus the new products coming into place. So at any point of time, your working capital requirement will not be in the tune of INR 150 crores, which you are talking about, it will be between INR 45 crores and INR 50 crores. But definitely, there will be internal accruals coming and saved into the system, which will not inflate that working capital to that level.

I'm sorry, just adding to Himanshu. So the current account debtors are there, and they will continue to support the company that has already been discussed with them.

On the table [indiscernible] front, Jeet, the way you will plan the phasing out of the machine is to ensure that there is no impact on the business. So we are, in fact, growing. So our requirements are only increasing month over month. And therefore, the shutdown of the machines in Ayodhya will happen in sync with our ability to build capacity at outsourced sites. So that will ensure that there is no adverse impact on the business.

Person with the GS moniker, you can go ahead and ask your question.

Just wanted to check, we're taking funding at a very high cost. Is there a put call that we can come out of it any point in time once we are stabilized. That's the first question. And the second question is, what do we see in the near future, say, FY '27 and '28 as the outcomes that we will be happy with in terms of revenues as well as product mix sales. Shubham can highlight from a molded perspective and overall from a company's respective maybe Ved you can guide us.

Himanshu, I think first part, you may be better.

Can you repeat the first part? I think I missed out in the entire...

So -- sorry, I can address and then you can supplement. So yes, absolutely. The way Himanshu and the team have structured the deal is -- I'm going to call you GS because that's what your tag say. So GS, the way Himanshu and the team have structured the debt is exactly how you are seeing it. It's actually a very short-term measure, and we can actually come out without any premium in 15 months. So the idea is -- and from a Neo asset management side also, they are not people who want to stay in the long term also. So of course, any company cannot keep taking the burden of 17-odd percent in terms of cost. So the idea is that we get over this whole hump in the next 1.5 years and replace them again with debtors. And we'll start working on it right away. It won't be that you start working on it then so that you start structuring the replacement also right now. And Neo also plans to work on it with us. So how do you lower the cost of capital at that stage will be our aim. And of course, the way Himanshu explained in the beginning as well, that the way the cash flow works as well that you have a 4-month moratorium and then 12% interest, literally until there is a turnover of the lenders. So the balance, the gap of -- between the gap that is created between 12% and 17-odd percent is actually paid for at the time of replacement by an additional debt. So total cost of capital actually doesn't work out to be that high. But Himanshu can explain that a little better than me.

Yes, a very interesting question. And I think the basic premise in the way it has been done. So you go on the financial numbers. I think we are financial people and financial investors, it's better to talk. I mean, till -- in the financial year '23, '24 and '25, the company was doing a consistent EBITDA of INR 80 crores, INR 85-odd crores basically into the system. Now because of the pricing pressures and some shutdown issues, which Mayank ji has mentioned, the current year EBITDA has come down. So if the company was supposed to replicate that performance entirely of whatever has been follow -- whatever has been achieved, I should say, in the last 3 preceding years, then an INR 80 crore EBITDA, to top it up by if your new plant starts. So I've always been maintaining this fact that -- if you look at the financials of the company, the S&GA cost and the team cost constitutes between 29% and 32% today. But when actually the new plant would run up, the S&GA and the team cost, which is roughly about between INR 115 crores and INR 120-odd crores will not go to INR 200 crores. It will go to maybe INR 160, INR 170, INR 175 crore or INR 180 crores. So INR 180 crores means -- and if you get an additional top line of, say, even INR 200 crores, that definitely drops down to about 26%, 27% basically. So totality on an overall level in 16 months' time, you come to a place where your actual differential EBITDA on a INR 600 crore turnover again increases by INR 18 crores. Then you have the UP subsidy, which has already been approved by the UP state cabinet of another INR 12 crores every year that comes into place. So said that, that if bare minimum EBITDA, which the company looks at in the next 2 years is roughly, say, about INR 125 crore to INR 130-odd crores, bare minimum basically. So even if there's a INR 130 crore EBITDA, today, what the bankers take -- the bankers take about a 4x on that basically. -- in terms of the EBITDA cover, which is about INR 520 crores, and that's the exact amount of INR 500 crores in terms of NCDs that has been borrowed apart from the promoters portion, that will have to be seen at that point of time. So I don't think in terms of numbers, there is anything which is something -- I'm even not assuming anything practically, maybe the plant takes 6 months or 9 months to stabilize. Then also we are roughly, say, at about 80%, 90% of that number. And if the management team and the team at the ground is able to turn around the plant faster, then you will be having a better contribution coming into place. And if in a financial year -- so it may be that if in financial year '28 by the end, the EBITDA is somewhere around INR 140 crores and INR 150 crores. It's very easy to replace the entire transaction in the next 18 months with that tract coming into place and coming back to normal. So this is just a measure which has been taken and really want to thank even our earlier investors and even I think the Neo team granting that breather so that this project can be completed.

Shubham and Mayank [indiscernible]. GS, that's a great question. I'm excited to hear what are you going to be happy -- what will make you happy Shubham and then Mayank by the end of the year.

Yes. So I lost my train of thought along with Himanshu [indiscernible] explanation on the funding. So your question was on the product pipeline for the coming year, the products that we will be focusing on.

What will make you happy as an outcome for the next 2 years?

Sorry.

What will make you happy as the outcome on both businesses for the both years, coming year and beyond that, please.

Understood. Fantastic. Thank you. I think there are 3 or 4 exciting things on the Food Services side that we are working on and that I would hope play out in the next few years. So that is on the -- on the product front and on the manufacturing and on the product front, I think we're very excited about the delivery opportunity because, again, as a market, it would only grow, grow, grow. So the faster we are able to get a strong product in there. That is a very, very interesting opportunity. And that is why the emphasis of the company since so many quarters to develop something there. very, very big opportunity. So if we can track that, that will be fantastic. The other opportunity, which is very interesting is on the manufacturing side. So as we end of mentioned that we can take a small break as we kind of fix the issues in the plant and think how you want to build that. But again, given our intrinsic advantages of being an integrated mill, we have the potential of being one of the lowest cost producers in the whole world. So I'm very excited that when we do this again, we will actually achieve -- we will achieve that and that may give us an unprecedented advantage in the market. The opportunity in the U.S. is very, very exciting because that market is, of course, a lot more developed and larger than the Indian one. So this year it's more like a trial run for us in that market. And if you're able to successfully perform there? Or again, that would represent a very, very big potential for the business in the coming years. So I would say these are 3 things I'd be very excited to work on over the next 2 years. Mayank sir, over to you.

Yes. And as far as the other side is concerned on the paper. I mean the challenging pointing is in this year, how fast we can do the commissioning and stabilize the machine. And we still expect that by the end of this financial year, we should be able to achieve 60% plus production capacity. And the next financial year, and we expect 75% plus. That should come, and that would be good relief on this. And of course, over and above this, we would really be looking for a good market support so that whatever the new product we induced should sell well.

I'll also add to that, GS. In terms of the flexibles, if we have major brands a part of their portfolio converted to our flexible solution, that will be great. And I'll add to that, 5, what also the important part is the 5 major converters willing to buy regularly from us will be whatever we produce in Ayodhya because it will be -- the effort that is being made is to create something which is truly suitable for the application. So if that -- those 2 things happen, then we would be in a very, very good situation.

I have one more question, if I can, Pranay.

Yes, sure. Go ahead.

Could you give a bit of insight on market situation right now in terms of the pricing power, which we were hit by last year. Because I think Chinese product prices at least have started going up because of whatever measures China is taking. So will that give us a kind of tailwind as our project comes on stream? And second, what would be the asset turns on this geography project? So if you are spending INR 700 crores, how much turnover are we able to eventually get out of it at the full capacity utilization?

Okay. First things first. In terms of the market, the -- of course, us being very focused on certain specialized segment, we don't typically get hit by the paper cycles. But that said, there is always a ripple effect. What we have noticed in the market is the typical Wrap & Carry market that we have focused on so far has definitely got a significant impact, not so much from the Chinese actually. More from the -- I know you meant the Chinese space is going up. but it has been significantly hit from the low-cost waste paper-based producers, which is actually quite a concern for us because wastepaper in general, should not be applied to food because -- but as we know that in our country, it is possible to bypass the laws. The laws are there, but they show it as a secondary packaging instead of primary packaging. So it does touch food. But I'm sure all of you eat QSR-based food and you'll realize that the quality of bags and wrappers has been going down significantly. But that said, we have to ultimately focus on our efforts and make sure we find alternative markets, which is what the team has been doing. So we do see a lot of traction in certain areas that we have focused on. There are very, very specialized markets that have grown -- started at 50 tonnes, today at 400, 500 tonnes a month. So those are specialized applications that the team has found where there's a significant price that we are able to cover. But there is a challenge in terms of overall demand/supply mismatch. There is a certain amount of supply that is coming into the market. And everybody has to fly in a place, which means that there is a certain challenge that gets created in terms of the market side. In terms of asset turnover, we are definitely looking at upwards of INR 500 crores in terms of revenue on the base paper. So that's the effort. But of course, things change significantly as we crack the flexible code. So then it becomes a very different asset turnover, but maybe again, Himanshu can guide more on that front.

So that's a very interesting question. I think, see, understand the contours of this. I think only a paper machine of 100 tonnes in the base paper is getting addressed all is sort of retrofitting in terms of the power, the recovery, the pulp, which is an auxiliary to produce this kind of paper. So I think if you were to go in terms of the project aspect, I think if flexible comes into place, there's a very simple thing. If a normal base paper is sold today between INR 110 and INR 120 a kg. The flexibility in terms of plastic today is sold at between INR 250 and INR 300 a kg. I'm not going to the per square meter because actually packaging goes on square meter on the area that is basically covered in terms of the substrate in terms of the food or maybe the substrate that comes into place. So the capacity, if flexibles will come into place, the turnover can go between INR 1,200 crore and INR 1,500-odd crores additional from this particular site. Otherwise, it will really depend on the kind of papers. So if we are able to do different kind of a if we are able to do a glassine paper maybe the realization goes between 130 tonnes and 150 tonnes. If you had to do a normal base paper, then it comes between 115 tonnes and 120 tonnes. So at the peak capacity, it will be between 350 to 500 tonnes basically in that. But more important point is -- being an integrated facility is on the EBITDA number, basically rather than the revenue top line is particular thing. And that is why the outsourcing thing has been thought by the management team to actually work out on. So the EBITDA at the full capacity would be somewhere between 25% and 30% -- 25% of the entire plant basically. So if I would say, today, we are doing roughly about 420 tonnes, 430 tonnes at peak, 356 tonnes maybe this year because of a 40-day shutdown. Then that can go up to basically INR 700 crores -- between INR 700 crores and INR 750 crores, assuming that the molded products opportunity that Cuba is seeing a stagnant if that were to go up, then it can go to a turnover of INR 900 crores and EBITDA of about 25% is the more realistic number on the base case and in flexibles were to the case, then I don't think there is any challenge in terms of the entire thing. I mean, a turnover of roughly between INR 1,400 crores and INR 1,500-odd crores and with an EBITDA of maybe 22%, 23-odd percent at that point of time. That's what the number shows. It's up to the operational team to actually get those numbers now in -- just go and get those numbers.

Mr. [indiscernible], you can ask your question now.

So I just wanted to ask that you can see that revenues have dipped Y-o-Y this year. So what can you expect on the top line front for the next 2 years or so? And secondly, on the margins front also, they have debt. So do you expect them to stabilize? And if yes, then what margins can we expect for let's gain the next couple of years?

So Himanshu, how optimistic do you want me to be.

Not at all.

I'm too optimistic. Okay. So that's what my team slams me for, like you always show the optimism instead of these realism as they say. But that said, so there is a certain revenue that we can generate from the current operations, which has been more or less around the 420-odd mark. Then there is an additional revenue that we can generate from the new facility, at least the 4, 5 months that we will have of some production and ramping up, as Mayank said, that hopefully reaching or averaging about 60% for the months that we kind of produce. So that's the other revenue. As Shubham said, there are significant plans for growing the food services. So that growth in that revenue from the current INR 60-some crores to higher. So that will shift total to a significant increase. I won't give you an actual number. In terms of EBITDA margins, we will definitely look to come towards where we were earlier, which was around a mark of 22% to 25-odd percent. So that will be the effort by the team to reach there. And yes, I think I'll leave the calculations to you, and then Neetika will be happy with me with that.

And [indiscernible] you have one more question?

Yes. One follow-up. I think Ved -- so you mentioned NSRs of INR 140, INR 150 for release paper glassing paper versus INR 110 for base paper. While at the same time, you mentioned taking some trials on some European machines right now. So are we clear as on today, what are we going to make on PM4? I mean is it going to be lease paper? Or is it going to be base paper? I mean are we ready with...

[indiscernible] great question as usual and important question as well. So this is something that we have spent a lot of time in the market with. So we're going to try and produce both. It's basically release is the base paper. So as you imagine, so how do you imagine flexible. It's basically a paper that has very low porosity doesn't absorb too much chemical and is able to run on the converters machine. So if I'm going to break it down, that's how we see the base papers. So there are different parts of the structure. That's what the role of the pace paper is. release paper is something we had targeted basically because it goes into siliconization. Silicon is extremely expensive. So the way we structure release paper is that it shouldn't absorb any silicon and people go down to 0.45 GSM or grams per square meter of coating because the paper is so good in terms of absorbing. So that's what we are targeting. So with it release, there are many grades, right? Even the other grade, which is in common parlance called glassine something that you mentioned, which is basically more smooth and see through kind of grade. So what our product, the way we have envisaged the product, it is basically looks like a glass in and doesn't so much great so that the buyer has see-through properties in paper and also make sure that the converter doesn't have to put in too much chemicals. So that's how we have envisaged or dreamt of the paper itself. So the part of the pilot machine trials is to make sure that we are not starting with trials when the machine starts. So exactly what you said, there are recipes that have been created to ensure that, that product works closely with our paper machine designers and suppliers to create that kind of paper machine to enable that product. And now we want to make sure that we have proved before we make it on the paper machine. So those are the steps we follow. You kind of create a structure in the lab, the furnace, the chemistry, et cetera, et cetera. Then you kind of try it in certain smaller facilities, then you go for a pilot before you go into the big machine. So that's the stage that we are in. Typically, when you look at a true glass in, it goes through something called a super calendaring process, which is what makes it like a glass, right? It's very, very smooth those of you who actually know glassing paper. It's like sometimes you see it in medical packaging or actually a very good example is that when you go to an airline and they have those backed stickers, what comes out from the back, the release of the sticker. And it's actually more expensive than the top, what they call the face or the label that is there. So the sticker back is a typical glassine paper. And as you'll realize, it's a little bit see through -- it's a very glossy kind of finish, and that's where the word glassine comes from. But these are all the family of release. In terms of the pricing, the ranges that we have seen are in between that exact range, which you mentioned, about INR 110 to INR 150. That's the -- top end is about INR 150, a European kind of product and local Indian product can also be around INR 110 mark. So of course, as you enter the market, the market tests you. So we are not expecting to sell at INR 150 right off the bat as much as we would love to. So we would probably come in somewhere in the middle. We will try and see how the properties are and the properties are way better than the product at INR 110. We will price it somewhere in the middle. In case the machine is struggling in the beginning, which with Mayank there, hopefully, there'll be less struggles now. So we will hopefully be -- if there is a struggle, we'll have to go down towards the INR 110 number. But these are all kind of interim steps as we stabilize. But of course, the holy grail still remains how much of that becomes a barrier coated people. But that said, let's stay with the base paper itself, and we will try and get -- creep towards that number of INR 130, INR 140 at least within this financial year or early next year where we stabilize.

Mr. Ravi, you can ask your question.

First of all, congratulations on your new hire. Best wishes to Mr. Mayank Jindal. And I really hope going forward, the new leadership team will aggressively work towards the goals. My first question is to Mr. Shubham. Again, congratulations on the launch of the delivery containers, and I really hope we see these containers in our kitchen soon. So in last August, you had shared your goals and vision for check, that is the food services. And we had hoped that we will capture 15% of the market share by 2028. I think that is roughly around INR 680 crores or whatever, I think you had mentioned. So -- are we still on track for that? Because even 9 months have passed, and we have not seen any meaningful growth. So do you think we are still on track for it with all the upgrades that you're planning?

Yes, definitely. I think when we start out all of finance, it's what you call a hockey stick, right? You laid the groundwork for a lot of things on which you don't see immediate returns, but the return is accumulation. There was no one corrective action, which would over like it was not a switch, right, that we could go suddenly from where we were to 5x. So that kind of growth only comes through making a lot of small, small changes. And those changes and the results of the actions of the measures we've put in place to not come in immediately. They actually compound. So when these do start bearing fruit, it will come all together. So we continue to work towards that goal. We are quite optimistic and, of course, in our approach. We keep adapting as well -- so we keep trying to refine it. There are things we plan, which work out some others don't, but we pivot and we find another way. So -- we are quite confident, again, I think as we have mentioned on the call, this business has a lot of potential. We are very well positioned to take advantage of that potential. So I think with everything we are planning, we should -- I'm still quite confident that we'll get there.

All right. All right. Good luck on that. And my second question is to Mr. Ved. So where, as you know, investors have really struggled for the past 1.5 years, right? So none of us have a smiles back likely to have in 2023 or 2024. So I think basically, Pakka, I think whatever commitments we have made, we have not made any of the commitments. So my question to you is on the larger goals that we had either about [indiscernible] or our 2030 goal of USD 1 billion in revenues. So are we still chasing that goal? And how soon do you think investors will be rewarded for their patience. I'm talking about those 300 levels where I think even SBI and Carnelia invested. And most of us actually invested then looking at the growth of Jagriti and [indiscernible]. So when will we get back there? Because whatever we have invested now it's 1/3 of that is basically INR 1,000 invested, we are at INR 300 now. So when do you think investors will be rewarded.

It's a very pertinent question, Ravi. And we are definitely we are definitely responsible for that. So let's look at the core of Pakka, why are we here? So the focus and the heartbeat of paces in a singular idea that how do you leave the planet cleaner. And we know we can only do it through scale. What we are realizing is that similar to what Shubham said, there is a certain learning curve that we are going through. Absolutely no changes in terms of where we want to get. There is absolutely 0 changes and the team is as kind of driven towards that goal of scale. There are certain setbacks that we've been open about, we have noticed. And in the end, there is no one else to take the plane but us. So ultimately, we have to take the responsibility of the delays and products, the delays in funding, the delays in projects, the delays in or shifting of goals as well. But we feel that that's the journey. That's the journey we are on, and we will have to continue on that journey. And of course, there is a larger kind of responsibility in place for us to try hard. So that's what we are going to do. We'll continue to march in that direction. We're going to keep trying our level best and tweaking as we go along. Like you've noticed Mayank comes in with a lot of experience and ability. So of course, me personally having a partner like Mayank or Shubham, all the people on the screen, Neetika, Himanshu, is a huge gift, right? So because obviously, there is nobody, no one person that actually carries out this effort. So of course, as a team, we remain very closely knitted and directed towards our vision, and we will continue to support each other through the challenges. So Shubham is making significant pivots right, as we are faced with challenges. So he still feels that 2 years down, there will be a very different revenue number and a profit number, which we've all been waiting for. So our effort will remain in that direction. Guatemala, U.S. is a pause, as Shubham mentioned, that he's still very buoyant on the U.S. market. Yes, he will not be able to near shore it, but he'll keep supplying from India. So at least the Indian revenue kind of grows. And we might keep the Pakka Inc. company and life to be able to keep nurturing that goal. Guatemala, again, is a dream that we want to work towards. There's an enormous amount of groundwork that has gone in. The project is literally ready with detailed engineering, which is a huge effort it takes kind of to do that. And we have kind of put all the partners there on pause that guys we are coming back, but let us stabilize India first. So -- and very similarly, our Board as well. So the Board is as committed. In fact, we were at a Board meeting a couple of days back, and we mentioned our kind of repetition to the Board, and the Board was absolutely adamant that we have to put in our absolute best for the vision we have taken. So the Board is also with us. So with that, that gives us a lot of confidence. We are totally responsible for like eroding your wealth, and we want to make sure that we do right by you. And we are extremely thankful for the investors to stand by. We've seen large and small investors have faith in the company and stand with the company. So what we will continue to do is do our job, which is to ensure that we scale, we are profitable. We grow the top line. More importantly, we grow the bottom line. And we will continue to engage with you come what may, right? So even if we have faltered even if we have kind of not delivered on the goods that we promised. We will continue to engage, continue to make sure that we win your confidence of transparency and hope that as 1 or 2 of these products click, there will be a different feel in the market again. So that's the trajectory we'll be on. And we definitely hope that the faith that you have distorted on us is well rewarded.

All right. So on a lighter note, when do you think Pakka will be $1 billion dollar company.

Don't ask me. My finance team will kill me now. So at least earlier than later. I've already got enough flak from my finance team that you have to keep the internal goals internal. So I'm internalizing them now. So -- but the effort will be in that direction for sure.

At least, we investors thought by 2028, it will be a $1 billion company. I'm not talking about the revenues. I'm talking about the market cap with your Guatemala and Jagriti. But unfortunately, we are sub INR 400 crore, and it is very hard to see that for us. Hopefully, in the next 2 years, we'll bounce back. Best wishes and good luck.

There are no more questions. Ved, we can close the call with your closing note. Okay. We have -- sorry, we have one more question. Yes. So Mr. Prabhakar, you can go ahead with your question.

So we already we have taken like INR 400 crores, INR 500 crores plus debit [indiscernible]. So how much soon we can close that. I mean because interest may be like INR 60 crores per year, I mean, maybe I'm wrong. But how much soon we can close because it is very hard if you get hard to get lower profits so it will eat -- that interest will complete our company money. So how much close -- I mean how much early we can close that.

Himanshu, that one is for you. Or Neetika, go ahead.

Sorry, I missed the last number. You said how much -- what do we -- how much close do we close that? What did you say the last line?

How much we can early -- so how much hardly we can close that. We have taken the amount, right, INR 500 crores?

I think the idea is to do with the earliest we can. When you say that the entire earnings would be taken up by the interest, that is slightly incorrect. I think we do have -- even with the EBITDA that we are at, at present, we do have a lot of room for our internal accruals being invested. I think we -- I would not want to give a number here, but I would just say that we would want to make it the earlier we can let me not be very optimistic and say that it will be this many years. I mean, open to Himanshu sir, if he wants to add a number to what I said, but, yes.

Yes, Prabhakar ji, that's an interesting question. But even if we were to go to the bank debt route, I think the interest outflow of INR 500 crores would have been INR 50 crores if not INR 60 crores. So that delta is not that much. The only thing is it's not the interest closure, it's how fast can we commenced geography project and how fast can we bounce back to all our performances in terms of food services as well as the geography plant that will actually make a difference to the company. So in my honest view for the -- at least for the first quarter, there would be not very significant change, but definitely changes can be visible from the second quarter onwards in terms of the trajectory. And the faster we bounce back I think the faster we will be able to replenish and move out to this loan. Yes, as per -- it will take a minimum of 15 to 16 months to actually wipe out this particular high-cost debt that has come into the system. If it's faster, it's better for the investors because then everything bounces back at the end of the day. But minimum, it should take about 15 to 16 months to bounce back.

Thank you. Thank you, everyone. I think we can close now. Ved, any closing notes from you?

Thank you all once again for constantly supporting the company. I know it's been tough times, as some of you mentioned. But I can give you our my team's commitment that we believe knows to unturn work really hard to make sure we honor your trust and responsibility that you've disturbed on us. and thank you so much for being here on the call and taking the time. We look forward to seeing you in person in October. Thank you all.

Thank you. Thank you, everyone, for joining us today.

Thank you.

Thank you.