Pan American Silver Corp. (PAAS) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Hello, everyone. Thank you all for your attention and participation. We're so honored today to have Ignacio Couturier, if I'm pronouncing that right. I don't know if forgive it a French or Spanish pronunciation Ignacio, the Chief Financial Officer; and Siren Fisekci, the VP, Investor Relations and Corporate Communications.

Lots of things are happening at Pan Am besides $50 silver and $4,000 gold. Tell us all the changes, please.

Hi, John, and hi to all the listeners. It's a pleasure to be here again. This is -- I think this is my third year, John, doing these presentations, and I always enjoy a good conversation with you. And absolutely, it's a really exciting time to be at Pan American. And as you mentioned, yes, we're enjoying some amazing unprecedented metal prices, especially on the gold side. And silver, I think we're very close to the all-time record. So yes, it's an amazing time to be in the industry, but Pan American has been really, really busy the last few years, and it's great to see some of the results of all the hard work we've done. So I'll start the presentation. And please, John, as usual, jump in whenever you have comments, happy to field questions as we go along. So starting off, as usual, we have the customary cautionary note. So if this presentation has been shared with your viewers, I'm sure they can read it. Okay. So this is what Pan American looks like today. So we have 10 operations in 7 different countries spanning from Timmins, Ontario, all the way down to Santa Cruz, Argentina, our Cerro Moro mine. So Pan American has had a long track record of building, operating and even closing mines throughout LatAm and Canada. Today, our combined production from all our operations is around 20 million to 21 million ounces of silver and 735,000 to 800,000 ounces of gold. This makes us one of the biggest primary silver producers. As you can see from that pie chart on the right, we're one of the most diversified producers as well. None of the countries represent more than 25% of our exposure. And yes, political risk is definitely a consideration and having a diversified portfolio has always helped us. We've just completed the close of the -- sorry, the MAG Silver transaction earlier this month. So with MAG Silver, we're adding 44% of Juanicipio to our portfolio. So I'll talk a little bit about that and why it's important to Pan American's growth story. And then also talk about the other big catalysts that we have in our portfolio, starting with the skarn. John, you and I have talked about the skarn in the past. I think there's some really exciting news around the skarn with these high-grade veins that we discovered about a year and a bit ago when we published some resource on it. So I think that changes the story a little bit about the skarn. So we'll talk about that. And of course, we have Escobal and Navidad, and we'll touch upon those as well. Yes, I think when compared to our peers, you'll see that we have a very diversified portfolio, a lot of different mines in a lot of different countries. We have a long track record of operating in Latin America. John, as you mentioned, I'm originally Latin American, and I think you come to our Vancouver office, I'd say more than half the people here speak either Spanish or Portuguese. So we're very well accustomed to operating in Latin America. But ultimately, yes, we're a great vehicle for investors who want to have exposure to silver. Despite the fact that silver doesn't represent the majority of our revenue today, it is -- we do have one of the biggest silver reserves in the world. And in terms of our peers of the primary silver producers, we do have the biggest silver reserves and resources. So a lot of potential in the ground apart from our mines that currently operate. So first, let's talk about Juanicipio, which is really exciting. So over the last couple of years, we had a process of streamlining of the portfolio, and I'll talk a little bit more detail of that. But through that streamlining, we acquired -- we monetized about $1 billion. And the last couple of acquisitions we've done, Yamana in 2023 and then Tahoe back in 2019, they were both very transformative transactions. However, they didn't bring that much silver. And given the cash we had accumulated from those sales of assets, it made a lot of sense for us to invest back in silver. And we got a lot of questions about when is Pan American going back into silver, given what we saw what happened in our small niche sector. We saw that Coeur, of course, bought SilverCrest and First Majestic bought Gatos. And yes, we were looking at all the silver world and the silver asset universe is pretty small. We looked at all these assets. A lot of these assets, they do have premium. So the best way for us to justify premium is looking at exploration potential. And Juanicipio for sure, is an asset, long life, low cost, huge exploration potential. So you can see from the graph here, Juanicipio is one of the biggest at 100% is one of the biggest silver producers, just around 18 million to 19 million ounces of silver with very large reserves, as you can see from the size of the bubble there on the top graph, very large reserves compared to all the other mines. And yes.

[indiscernible] ounces of the reserves on a 100% basis, Ignacio.

Siren, can you pull that up?

Yes. I can pull that up. I'll get back to you in a second.

And your reserve and production from the earlier slide include Juanicipio or not yet?

No. The 20 million to 21 million ounces of silver, that's for 2025, not including Juanicipio. So remember, we've just closed the transaction now. So it will -- we will see a pickup from that 20 million to 21 million ounces for 4 months worth of 44% of Juanicipio. For 2026, we will have a full year. So you can kind of do the math of more or less where we'll land in.

So Fresnillo always under forecast the grade.

Yes.

It's coming in 10%, 20% more than they said. So your 44% should be at least 7 million ounces. And Siren is going to tell us what the reserves are in a moment.

Yes. And then as Siren pulls that up, you'll see it's also Juanicipio. It's the lowest quartile producer as well. You can see that from the lower bar chart there.

That's spectacular. And you bought a silver mine that was permitted, not like Escobal that we bought, it shut down or Navidad without permits. So now you're not swimming against the current anymore. I'm teasing you.

No, absolutely, John. And look, this is an asset that will -- that's producing. As you said, it's been -- the grade reconciliation has been positive. It will be -- I think it will be tied for first place in terms of cash flow generation in terms of Pan American's assets. So Jacobina and 44% of Juanicipio will be our biggest cash flowing assets. So this is a huge add and a very material add to our portfolio. And yes, for sure, as I mentioned, one of the reasons why we consider this over other assets was the exploration potential. Only 10% of the surface has been drilled, has been explored. So -- and it's located in one of the biggest silver districts in the world, surrounded by all these Fresnillo mines. And actually, La Colorada is only around 60 kilometers away. So in the world of silver, this is considered elephant country. So it's really exciting for us to be able to expand on the exploration program. Now it is a JV. Fresnillo is the operator. So we're -- we've had a long-term relationship with Fresnillo and Pe oles in the past. MAG, of course, was more of an exploration company. We've had a long track record of not just operating mines, but a lot of positive exploration success in Mexico. So we're really hoping to leverage that in the new relationship we'll have with Fresnillo on the JV.

Proven and probable silver reserves are 122 million ounces and then measured and indicated resource of 169 million ounces.

That's 100% basis.

That is 100% basis, and it's according to -- so our share would be 44% of that, just to confirm for listeners. And that's based on MAG's technical report.

That's 54 million ounces of your pro rata reserves, excluding resources.

Correct. So we do -- we are looking forward to expanding -- working with Fresnillo and expanding the exploration programs in that concession. So yes, I think that was one of the main drivers why we picked this one as our silver acquisition versus other assets that we're also considering at the time. So really, really excited to have this now as part of our portfolio. And as I said, it's not often that you buy something that day one is going to be contributing to your cash flows, it's going to be accretive to your costs, et cetera. And we have the extra -- we like to think that we're always very smart. But when we announced this back in May, silver prices were much lower than they are today as well. So that's been the added bonus to all this. So moving on, another comparison here is this is within the Pan American portfolio of silver assets. You'll see Juanicipio will be around 7 million ounces one, as you mentioned, at 44% and then our lowest all-in sustaining cost mines. So very, very accretive. So it's a significant increase to our production and lowering our cost. So it's a win-win for us. So here's a summary of all the divestitures we've done over the last 2 years, adding up to just over $1 billion. Throughout a lot of these divestitures, we did retain royalties, mostly copper and gold royalties. So it's a nice way to add some upside, retain some value in these projects. None of these -- none of the ones that have royalties are operating right now. However, they all have huge potential. The biggest one being the sale of MARA back in 2023, that was around half of the amount that we sold around $475 million. And then the other large one was the sale of La Arena. La Arena improved for $245 million. Most recently, we did announce the sale of La Pepa for around $40 million. So we get a lot of questions from investors, what's going to come next? I think there's still more noncore assets to sell from our portfolio, but these will be -- they're mostly early-stage exploration. Pan American, though was not done growing. So our general strategy is to continue to add assets and then reevaluate the existing assets and continue to optimize the portfolio as a whole. But definitely, this has been very, very important to us in our growth story. As you can see from the graph there, $500 million of which was used for the acquisition of MAG. That was the cash portion of the consideration for MAG. The rest was done with shares. Now as I mentioned, Pan American has had a pretty outstanding growth trajectory. You can see from this graph, that's from 2018 to current, how Pan American has grown the company in terms of market capitalization. And then as the other -- the other axis, of course, is our operating cash flow. So you could see how through acquisitions, first with Tahoe then with Yamana and now most recently with MAG, now we're just around $16 billion to $17 billion market cap with some of the strongest operating cash flows. Larger than us, of course, in the silver sector is Fresnillo. However, do keep in mind that a lot of those shares are tightly held, privately held. It's only a small portion of the Fresnillo shares are afloat in the market. So I think for investors looking for exposure to silver, we're one of the largest with the strongest balance sheet, very strong operating cash flows.

So the $1.1 billion of cash is before deducting the $500 million for MAG?

Correct. That's correct. So that's all that we accumulated through sales, which coincides more or less with our cash balance as of Q2 -- as of June 30. So when we report our Q3 results, you'll see there will be the deduction of the $500 million consideration for MAG, plus the addition of all the operating cash flows that we have been enjoying some really healthy cash flows from our operations, given our operating results and, of course, the metal price -- high metal prices. Speaking of which here's kind of where we're seeing our margins, both on the silver segment and the gold segment. So we've had relatively steady all-in sustaining costs and our margins have been widening as silver and gold prices have been widening as well, have been increasing. Today, we are enjoying close to $4,000 gold and silver in the high 40s. So our margins have been expanding very, very healthy. And in terms of balance sheet, I think this is a differentiating factor for Pan American with a lot of our other peers is we've always had a really strong balance sheet. We've never had a lot of debt on our books. So total available liquidity as of June 30 was around $1.5 billion. That includes the undrawn amounts. And of course, it's -- there is the $500 million being carbon production. We do have a little -- we do have some debt in our books. It's a debt that was issued by Yamana. Those are the Yamana bonds for around $821 million. Those were issued by Yamana at times of really low interest rates. So the big tranche is at 2.6% and then the lower -- the smaller tranche that's due in 2027, that's at 4.6%. So we have -- given those low coupons, we haven't been in a rush to pay back those bonds. But yes, the one that the 2027s are coming up in a couple of years, so we'll manage those at due course -- in due course. Another question, of course, we get from investors is what's been our capital allocation approach over the years. And it's always been a balance of 3 things. Number one is return to shareholders. We have an uninterrupted track record of returning value to our shareholders since 2010 in the form of share buybacks and dividends. I think we've returned over $1.1 billion to our shareholders since then. The other one is maintaining low debt levels. I just talked about that a little bit. So we have -- whenever we have drawn on our credit facility, which has mostly been done for acquisition purposes, we've paid back our credit as soon as we can. And the last one is growth through expansion projects and acquisitions. So around 52% of the free cash flow that we've generated has been invested back in the business. So it's -- yes, and it's helped grow and maintain the company. In terms of the dividend, we do have a dividend policy. We did increase our dividend to $0.12 a share in Q2 2025 based on our strong balance sheet. We have also been active in the share buybacks. We did -- it's done from a -- it's done on a discretionary approach. So we try to identify opportunities where we see the disconnect between where metal prices are and where our share price is doing, and that's the time when we've been active in rebuying shares. So we were active early this year. However, we were blacked out for a big chunk of the year from doing trades given the MAG transaction. The SEC doesn't allow it. So yes, it's something that we'll be looking at going forward at what levels it makes sense for us to buy back shares. And that's in addition to our -- to the dividends that we've been paying. Now I'm going to talk a little bit about the skarn, John. So here's a little bit where the story has changed since last time we spoke. So early September, we came up with a press release on these high-grade veins that we found. So we started drilling them, I'd say, since late 2024, a huge amount of work, about 65 kilometers worth of drill holes have been put into this area. So maybe I should have shown it differently, but these veins are located above the skarn. So we've identified around 52 million ounces of silver in inferred resources. Given the fact that it's located above the skarn and we do plan on caving the skarn, this is something that we would like to develop ahead of the skarn. So we're working right now on an updated PEA. Our last PEA on the skarn was published in, I think, January 2024. So hopefully, sometime in 2026, we can publish an updated PEA taking these veins into consideration. So this is a nice, I'd say, bridge between our current operations at La Colorada and the skarn. Yes, 52 million ounces of silver is quite substantial. As we've spoken in the past, John, the skarn is a large zinc, lead and silver project with around 80% of the revenues coming from zinc and lead. Having this discovery come into play does give us more optionality within how to develop the skarn. This is something that's lower -- not as deep as the skarn. We can probably access it through either our existing operations or put in a shaft or a ramp of some sort. So we'll be studying this. But this is a great story to add to the skarn and now we can develop these high-grade silver zones ahead of the skarn. Just for context, you can see there on the figure on the right, the skarn is those 3 red bodies. The high-grade silvers would be located -- the high-grade silver veins will be located above the right body, the 903. So -- so yes, we're working very hard on this. We're still -- in terms of the skarn, we're still in conversations with potential partners on that. This -- obviously, having the veins takes a little bit of pressure. One of the reasons, of course, talking to potential partners was the zinc exposure, but having now this high-grade silver zone bridge the gap to the main skarn body, which is mostly zinc gives us a lot more optionality. So we're still working on the partnership. And yes, we have been talking to potential partners now for a while. But definitely, this takes the pressure off as we'll be focusing on the silver veins before we go into the actual skarn.

[indiscernible] Ignacio, the bright blue and the right slide are the new vein shallow and the dark -- and the red is the 3 skarn blocks.

Correct. So the new area is not in this map, but it will be to the right of the blue just at the same depth as the blue.

And it's not caliente. It's not 104 degrees like the skarn.

No, no. Remember, the skarn, the heat becomes less of an issue because of the mining method. But yes, it wouldn't be as hot as the skarn. The deeper parts would be connecting to our lower parts of the La Colorada mine. But of course, we solved some of those issues with that ventilation infrastructure that we put in place last year. So that's not much of a concern now. But yes, this is a great discovery, and it really, yes, expands the story of La Colorada, which is one of our most important assets, right? It gives us a lot more optionality with what we can do there. So anyway, I'd say I'll tell investors to stay tuned. Next year, we'll be coming out with an updated PEA taking into consideration these veins. Jacobina, this is another large catalyst for us. Of course, our most important gold asset produces just shy of 200,000 ounces of gold a year. So we've been working for the last year or so on different engineering studies for the optimization. They include ore haulage, plant upgrades, obviously, looking at the throughput, tailings dam storage. I think there's in total, like more than 30 engineering studies going on. We are aiming to come up with some -- at least some disclosure on some aspects of these studies late this year. But this is really, really exciting for us. Jacobina, as I mentioned, with the 44% of Juanicipio will be our top cash flowing assets. This is a long-life mine with a lot of potential -- lot of potential to expand the life of mine as well. So yes, we're very, very excited about this and looking forward to sharing more information with the market once these optimization studies are more advanced. Escobal, this is a long story now for Pan American. This is an asset that came in 2019 with the acquisition of Tahoe resources. When in production -- when this mine was operational before Pan American acquired it, it was producing around 20 million to 21 million ounces of silver a year at the time with all-in sustaining costs of below $10. So yes, this mine has -- if restarted, would have the potential to double our silver production or a little bit less now with Juanicipio, but still a really, really meaningful increase to our silver production. The mine has been in care and maintenance since 2017, undergoing an ILO 169 consultation that's run by the Guatemalan government. So it's a long story. I'd say that at this stage, we are advancing with talking to the government and having working meetings with the government. There's been a lot of changes within the government as well, changing of ministers. We know that the government has had a lot of working meetings with Xinka as well. And there's been a lot of advances. Now we've narrowed it down to 3 important impacts of the mine that the Xinka want to discuss, and that includes mine vibrations resulting from blasting as well as water quality and quantity and participation, economic participation in the project. So these are discussions that are still ongoing. In May -- in mid-May, just around the time we're announcing or just before we announced the MAG transaction, actually, coincidentally, there was a statement given by the Xinka saying that they don't support or they question how the government can run this process and oversee the running of the mine or the operation of the mine. Just -- and some -- a lot of investors came to us say, how does this impact? So these are statements that were done outside of the consultation process. And remember, the consultation process isn't necessarily a referendum. As I mentioned, it's more about talking about and discussing the impacts of the mine. So we do -- the government did reach out to the Xinka. And since then, there's been some good conversations between the Xinka and the government on this. So we still don't have any type of time frame, but we continue to advance given the circumstances in Guatemala. So I would say the new government came in power in early 2024. Really, there wasn't much advance in the project until mid- to late 2024. So only in the last year has this picked up again. But anyway, this is a huge optionality within our portfolio. So some investors ask a lot about this, and this is something we still -- is still a priority for us for sure. But yes, it has the potential to increase our production and really transform the company, hence, how much effort we put into it over the years. So speaking of investors, in terms of -- as I said, the silver space is quite small in terms of the company. So we are one of the largest in terms of market cap, you can see from this graph, as well as in terms of liquidity. Fresnillo, as I mentioned, is larger than us, but it's not as -- it doesn't have as much liquidity in the market as we do given that a big portion of their shares are tightly held. So we are one of the biggest, if not the biggest, within the sector. And the other one is that we've run the numbers, and we do know that we -- our share price is the most highly correlated within that peer group to silver prices. So investors looking for that exposure, we are the best vehicle within the peer group, within the sector. Now I'll shift over. We've talked a lot about the company. I'm going to talk a little bit about the silver, the silver market. So yes, this is -- I think it's in the next graph actually. This would be now -- 2025 would be the fifth year now that we're running deficits in the market. So we -- silver demand has outpaced silver supply in the last few years. The forecast is that to continue. In terms of the demand, a lot of the growth has come from photovoltaic. So you can see the increase from 2021 until today, more than double the demand from photovoltaic. And you can see the 2 pie graphs there on the left. This is the really interesting thing about silver that not all about half of the demand comes from -- or a little bit more than half of the demand comes from the industrial side. The other demand, the coins and the jewelry and the silver wear, that's investment. So silver is really special. It has an industrial side for its demand and has an investment side to the demand. And I don't think -- there's no other metal that really has that duality. When you look at gold, it's all investment. Silver, silver has got both sides of it. And on the mine supply side, most of the -- it doesn't appear here, but most of the silver, 2/3 to 3/4 [indiscernible] produced as byproduct. So some of the largest, biggest silver mines in the world are actually gold mines or the base metal mines. Primary silver mines are quite rare. So yes, the silver -- silver fundamentals look really strong going forward. We also know the speculative side of silver is really strong as well. So -- and silver is a smaller market than gold. So we've seen this over and over again. I've been in the silver business for the last 20 years. So when dollars finally make it into the silver -- into the silver, into silver -- silver has -- can outperform, and we've seen that over and over again. And yes, throughout this whole year, a lot of investors are asking -- kept asking when silver is going to catch up with gold. And yes, I don't have a crystal ball. I don't know exactly when that's going to happen, but I do know that silver has the potential to increase really quickly once there's interest in the market for it. Just rounding out the presentation. Pan American, of course, is very committed to ESG. And in the last year, you can see in this -- in this table, you can see some of the memberships that we have, the reporting standards that we have. We have a very large sustainability report that we published. I think it's -- we've been publishing it since 2010 or '11. We're one of the earliest to publish a sustainability report. It's a fundamental -- it's a cornerstone of how we operate our company. Yes. And I think in the last 5 to 10 years, we talk about it a lot, but the reality is that it's a cornerstone of operating mines in Latin America and North America is having really good relationships with the communities that are close by, understanding what the environmental impacts of the mine are, making sure that we work very closely with our employees and understand their needs and understand all the stakeholders that are impacted by mining. So this is a cornerstone of how we do our business. We talked about it and we talk about it a lot I'd say, in recent years, but this has definitely been part of our DNA. And with that, John, I wrap up the presentation here, some summary of Pan American and a snapshot of Pan American. But I would say if investors are interested in having that silver exposure with catalysts having a large producer with scale, please consider Pan American Silver. We've added an amazing asset with Juanicipio. We have a few catalysts in our portfolio that can add more value. And in addition to that, I'd say we're not done growing the company. If another opportunity comes up, we would definitely look at that, too. And these things take a long time and they're difficult. And yes, we're in an interesting crossroads in our industry right now where valuations are tricky. We've seen -- we have very high spot metal prices. We see consensus prices that are much lower. So it brings some new challenges. Obviously, it's a good problem to have, but it brings up new challenges for us. But anyway, going back to Pan American, yes, I think all -- any investor looking to get silver exposure and have access to catalysts that could increase value, please consider Pan American Silver.

[indiscernible] With regard to the Escobal contingent right, is it 1/10 or 1/20 of a share?

0.0497 is the exchange ratio.

Almost 1/20. So the transaction was which month in 2019.

February.

So in February of '29, the 10-year period is up and the right is either exercised or not. Is that right?

Correct -- they expire.

Okay. So it's getting close to where you put the pedal to the metal.

Yes, and it is a priority for us. I wouldn't expect that this was going to take as long as it has, but we definitely want to make sure that -- that it isn't rushed either and that the last thing we want is the mine, us getting the permit and everything, but then there's still protests and there's roadblocks and running the mine becomes difficult. So we do want to make sure that when we get the go-ahead from the Supreme Court and we get the go-ahead from the Xinka that there is -- that we have the acceptance that we need to run an operation. So -- and it's complicated, and we've been -- and I think we've made huge advances in the process since we started in 2019. When we started in 2019, the populations living close to the mine, the view of those local population was quite negative, we've changed that completely. One of the biggest inquiries we get at the mine site is about jobs, employment. However, we still have to resolve the consultation with the Xinka. The Xinka don't necessarily live in any -- any close village specifically around the mine, they're dispersed within the area of impact. And yes, the consultation is a really important step that we have to complete. And yes, it's taken a long time, but we want to make sure it's done correctly.

So I'm making an analogy to First Nations in Canada and the stipends they get from the government. And the amounts are different if someone's half First Nations or 1/4 or 3/4 or whatever. Is there really a significant full-blooded Xinka community nearby? Or are there people that are 1/8 or 1/4 and identify as Xinkas.

Yes. I can't comment on that. I do know that they -- these are people that identify as Xinka. What I can tell you is that -- and this is not just in Guatemala, but throughout Latin America, there's been -- over the last 20 years, there's more and more people self-identifying as indigenous. When Tahoe -- back in the day, when Tahoe did the demographic study, very few people had self-identified as Xinka. This is back when they built the mine more than close to 15 years or when they started the development of the mine 13, 14 years ago and more people self-identified as Xinka later on once the mine was operational. Not that, that changes anything, but yes, they have self-identified. And I guess we're past that point now. We're in the middle of the consultation. And we just -- we're at the stage that we just need to reach an agreement with the Xinka about what the impacts of the mine are and how we can either compensate or mitigate. That's where ultimately what the goal is. And keep in mind is that we don't run the process, right? This is a process that's run by the Ministry of Energy and Mines in Guatemala. So we are beholden to their time schedule and how they can -- when they book the meetings, et cetera.

So I spend a month in Greece every year in the village my father left 105 years ago, and I'm indigenous. I had an infection in my eye. I went to the medical clinic in the next village and all I had to say was my father was born nearby and everything was free. But I'm draft eligible for 99 generations. So there's responsibilities of being indigenous. But the rights are not as good as in Canada or somewhere next to a mine. So we were your guest January last year at Jacobina, and there was the central mill in many open pits going underground, different underground, maybe a 5-mile trend. The gold price has doubled. So should we assume that everything you were considering 1.5 years ago is wonderful today. And would the expansion in Jacobina be 25% in tonnes or triple in tonnes? What magnitude, what should we be dreaming about?

Yes. I'd say I think, John, at this stage, you have to have a little bit of patience when we're ready to talk about it. Now as I mentioned from a corporate development side, I think it also applies to our own operations is what long term -- and this is, I think, an industry-wide conundrum is what long-term prices should we be using for our reserves and our planning. So if you look at our -- if you look at our reserve and resource disclosure earlier in September, you said you'll see that it's now become quite unique what assumptions we take on metal prices for certain projects. So there's a big table -- following the reserve and resource table, there's a couple of tables with the assumptions, the price assumptions. And you'll see that we ultimately have to use bespoke prices. So the shorter life mines, we used higher prices in gold and silver and then the longer life mines, we use lower prices. But I'd say, I think industry-wide, we're all waiting to see how persistent these prices are. We're also waiting to see how other people handle it, how other companies are handling it. It is unique to have such high spot prices and the consensus not catching up yet. So it's something that we've struggled with what is the right assumption. Now for sure, we're enjoying some huge margins. So it's tough to leave behind material that we know is economic today in the price environment. And that material is lower grade. So we know that has an impact on our all-in sustaining costs. Lower grade material will bump up to all-in sustaining costs, but it's tough not to be exploiting some of this material and knowing that it has such huge margin today. So yes, Pan American is also unique in that we publish our reserve and resources midyear. Most companies, of course, publish at year-end. So we're a bit of ahead of the curve. So it will be interesting to see how other companies manage this. Now in terms of Jacobina, there's a lot of studies going on. And yes, we're very excited about what the potential is. But I'd say we have to have a little bit of patience when we're ready to talk about it. But for sure, yes, there's lots of upside for Jacobina for either increasing production or extending the mine life, et cetera.

So Brazil is a wonderful country. I was just there a few weeks ago visiting iron ore in Minas Gerais for Vale. And you're a considerable gold producer. Aura Minerals is a considerable producer. We're hosting Jaguar tomorrow that's a smaller producer. Equinox is a significant producer. Equinox has 4 mines -- as a company, they operate in 6 regions in the Americas, 2 in Canada, California, Mexico, Guatemala, Nicaragua and Brazil. So they're all spread out. It's possible the new manager wants to sell out of Brazil to focus more on the other operations. They have Bendito issues in Mexico, problems you don't have, but they have a lot of issues here and there. If something were for sale in Brazil, would you love to grow in Brazil and make it a bigger part of your company?

Absolutely. But we -- with the Yamana transaction, that was the first time we had exposure to Brazil, and I'd say things have only been gone well for us there. We really like the jurisdiction. It's a country where we -- where people understand mining. There's a long tradition of mining. We're very happy with the people that work in the mining industry that are very knowledgeable, very well experienced. So for sure, Brazil is a country where we would like to continue to expand if the opportunity came up. It's been a very, very pleasant surprise how good operations are in Brazil. How well our mines run in Brazil.

I'm going to be [indiscernible] mala fe. Mala fe is a very expressive expression in Spanish. 40 years ago, I was at a beach and I picked up a cousin like I was hugging her and dumped her in 4 feet of ocean and rolling her hair, and she came up screaming at me and that was mala fe. So I guess it means something like bad faith or mischievous. So once in a while in the mining business, a company gets a wonderful drill intercept. And they open up the champagne and they celebrate and they think they've hit the mother lode. And then after a few years, they do the engineering or the metallurgy and there's some costs or some issues. So 2019, we had La Colorada Skarn and there were these thick intercepts that were tremendous. Then the mine plan in December 2023 was [indiscernible]. It's 5,000 feet deep. The rock is 104 degrees Fahrenheit. You need 2 shafts for ventilation, you need 2 ramps, a lot of air, $3 billion in capital. And it seemed like it was a challenging mine, complicated, a lot of work. But now miracle, you've got 44% of Juanicipio and you found 50 million ounces of high-grade shallow. It's no [indiscernible], normal rock. So maybe you do 5 million or 10 million ounces in the shallow zones for 5 or 10 years, and you let the hot potato sit in the ground for 10 years and you have lots of time to figure it out. Is that fair?

Yes. Well, a couple of clarifications there, John. The heat issues and the ventilation issues were in the current mine. They weren't in the -- that was -- we mine the volcanics on top. And that's something that we solved, as I mentioned, with the ventilation shaft and the ventilation infrastructure. The skarn is lower down in limestone. So it's a different rock, host rock altogether. The complication with the skarn is that these are big bulk underground mine methods, which is caving. And huge investment and time frame. And look, the skarn by itself is a world-class deposit. It will be one of the biggest zinc mines in the world with a substantial amount of silver. It's still -- the PEA had 17 million ounces of silver coming out of it. But the challenge, of course, is that investors like yourself or people listening today don't invest in Pan American Silver for huge zinc exposure, right? So hence, where the partnership discussions have been happening.

[indiscernible] change when you filed your reserves in August while it was vacation in Greece? Or is it still 3.5% to 4% lead, zinc combined and 1 ounce silver in the skarn.

It's [indiscernible]. And the skarn, the skarn hasn't changed. The skarn is -- we increased the tonnages, but the grades are [indiscernible].

Another conceptual problem I have is that no one would build an open pit mine at those grades for zinc, 3.5%, 4% combined lead and zinc, 1 ounce silver. And this is 5,000 feet underground. So it seems complicated to me.

Yes. The skarn is technically complicated, hence, the discussions we've had with partners, but the high-grade veins are shallower, as you mentioned. [indiscernible].

They save the day.

They're a great addition to the story, right? So we're really happy that this kind of bridges the current operation with potentially what the skarn can be. So yes, it's a great find. It makes the story more digestible for typical precious metal investor like yourself, and it gives us more time to continue looking at the skarn, what the best options are for the skarn. And as I said, the partnership for the skarn is critical given the amount of zinc and the amount of capital required, et cetera.

Maybe you do the shallow high-grade silver first. And then in 10 years, you do the partnership, you do the skarn, but it's not a partnership. It's 100% whoever the new entrant is, no management committee, they're the boss. They said they're going to spend $3 billion, let them be the boss. And why don't you retain either a 50% silver stream or a revenue royalty payable in silver. But let the other guys spend all the money and have all the control and figure out all the tough engineering issues and you just get the cream off the top.

Yes. Well, these are all things that we're considering not just now, but from the beginning when we first discovered the skarn. So it's got huge value for Pan American. It's just trying to figure out what's the best way to extract that value and return it to our shareholders. And that's what we've been working for the last couple of years. So I would say stay tuned. We'll have an updated PEA. We'll be able to have better -- I think it will be -- there will be some differences from what we published in the past. We will include these high-grade veins in the story. And it will be, I think, a more digestible story for investors when they look at this updated PEA.

So Ignacio, these JVs sometimes they're complicated and there's committees and things. One time 40 years ago, Nucor built a steel mill in Arkansas for I-beams. And there were a lot of permutations and combinations of roll past designs for I-beams. And they did it as a 51-49 JV with Yamato Kogyo to get the rolling mill technology. But the way the deal -- the way the business ran, Nucor ran the steel mill, they got the start-up technology they needed. And the role of the Japanese partner was to play golf and stay out of the way. If someone is going to spend the $3 billion to build this mine and figure it out, maybe Pan Am needs to be the partner that plays golf and stays out of the way and just take a royalty or stream off the top and let them do it any way they want. And if it has start-up delays, it's all for the other guys' account. But you guys should have the easy life and be the ones playing golf and let the other one do the hard work.

Yes. At the end of the day, we did find -- this is -- we didn't acquire it, right? We found it in our ground. So as I said, right now, it's just trying to figure out what's the best way to return value to our shareholders. It has a huge amount of silver. So what's the best way of returning that silver value back to our shareholders.

And largely not recognized in the market today. So I don't think because of the questions about time line, costs, our participation, but the project itself keeps getting better as you could see with those recent drill results that we've been announcing over the past year in the veins.

As you join the JV with Fresnillo, are you able to prioritize exploration 1, 2, 3, 5 kilometers away with Fresnillo and more fully explore the land plan?

So these are the discussions that we started having with Fresnillo, right? And I think the good news is that we're completely aligned. So anything that we find will be shared 56-44. So both parties have to benefit from this. So remember also, John, we just closed the transaction just over a month ago. It's still early days. So we're just developing that relationship with Fresnillo at the Juanicipio level. As I said, we've had a long-term relationship with Fresnillo and Pe oles with other commercial contracts, et cetera. But in terms of Juanicipio, this is our first time discussing it. So I think there's lots of opportunities for us to leverage our experience of exploration in Mexico. It's just these things take a little bit of time. But I would say Fresnillo has been very, very friendly to us, very excited to having us as partners. We've had a lot of good meetings with their staff. We've had some really good visits to the asset before we close the transaction and after we close the transaction. And yes, we're just developing that relationship right now. And these things take time. But I'll go back to what I said in the beginning. One of the reasons why we picked MAG and it's 44% of [indiscernible] over other potential silver targets was the exploration potential. So this will be -- this is a priority for us.

So Fresnillo is a great relationship. They're bigger than you. If you ever wanted someone to buy out of $4,000 gold and $50 silver, here you are.

I guess so. One thing I can tell you is this that Fresnillo, they've always wanted to expand outside of Mexico. We've had some good conversations sharing our experience outside of Mexico. But it is -- John, going back to what I said, it is a family -- mostly family held business, right? So they do things a little bit different than a regular corporation. So that's.

[indiscernible] top dollar, it doesn't matter.

If they did, yes, but they look at things a little bit differently.

They're very conservative, I know. Are you going to raise or lower the exploration budget for the Deer Creek property in Utah? And how much are you going to raise the budget for Larder Lake in Ontario, the gold project since you guys have so much more money than MAG Silver had?

I'd say, look, John, I think it's still also early days on those 2. For sure, I could say that Larder looks more interesting given its proximity to Timmins. So there's definitely off the get-go that caught our attention more Deer Trail, we're still evaluating. I'd say it's still early days to really say which way we're going to go with those 2 projects. Of course, Pan American over the years, we've spent more effort on brownfields than greenfields. But these projects deserve a good evaluation. And at the end of the day, we focus most of our energy on the due diligence on Juanicipio, not on these projects. This is more of an extra that we got for that transaction. So now we're going to spend some time with our exploration group looking at these 2 projects very carefully.

I need to check the question box. You had 32 people, and there's no questions in the question box. How can that be? I must be entertaining people asking too many mala fe questions. Okay. Well, if anyone has a question, please submit it. And when next year do we expect the PEA that incorporates the shallow sweet high-grade easy silver?

Yes. We haven't put out a time frame around that yet. I know we're working on it. We've been working on it for the last year or so. We haven't put out a date. As soon as we can give an estimate of when we'll put it out, we'll let you know. But it will be sometime next year. I can't tell you -- obviously, I'm hoping that it's early in the year, but we'll see. It depends on the engineering group, not finance. So -- but sometime next year, we'll be publishing it, and we'll let you know as soon as we have any sort of foresight on when it's going to happen.

Siren and Ignacio, thank you very much for your time. Thanks for putting up with my devilish questions. And thank you, everyone, on the webcast for listening. [indiscernible] all of us.

Yes. John, if there are any follow-up questions, feel free to [indiscernible].

Now there is a question in the box. Here we go. Yes. There's -- the one question was my e-mail about Larder Lake and Deer Creek and exploration. So that's there. Okay. Thank you very much.

Thank you, John. It's been a pleasure as usual.

Have a good afternoon. Thanks for putting up with me.

Thanks, John.

Good bye, everyone.

Thank you.