Paysafe Limited (PSFE) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Okay. So I think we're ready to begin. My name is George Mihalos. So I'm the senior analyst covering payments over at Cowen. And it's my pleasure today to be introducing the Paysafe management team. We have with us, CEO, Phil McHugh, who, by the way, is celebrating a birthday today and talking about payments. So I'd be remiss if I didn't put that out there. Phil is going to walk us through a handful of slides, and then we'll hop right into the Q&A portion with CFO, Izzy Dawood, joining us as well. So Philip, over to you.

Thanks. Thanks, George. Great to see you. Yes. What I'll do very quickly, I'm going to focus on just 4 quick messages. And then I'm going to give 2 customer examples of how when Paysafe's assets come together, why do we win deals with fast-growing disruptive players in the market. So I think the first message we have is Paysafe has been around for well over 20 years. It's scaled. It's highly profitable. It's truly global, has a really consistent track record of consistent growth, both organically and integrating deals inorganically as well. So that's kind of the first message to plant on Paysafe for those that are less familiar with it. The second message, and this is really probably the most important piece for me, is how do you plug into Paysafe? We talk about being a true specialized payment platform. And we win when we combine 4 pieces, and we'll bring that to life with some examples. One is ease of connectivity, how easy is it to integrate into Paysafe? The technology is very good. We've spent a lot of time and effort to really consolidate platforms. We've recently consolidated our enterprise sales team. So all products are sold by one team. It was interesting to hear David Ossip talk about that as a classic kind of Bill Foley playbook, and that's absolutely the direction we've gone in. So you can sell all of the different solutions together. Two, we provide more ways to pay. We are not just a traditional card processor. We have a very scaled global gateway. We have a very scaled digital wallet that gives you very powerful pay-in, pay-out capabilities. We can make cash digital. It's a small but very valuable use case for our clients. More and more, we're really building up our open banking or account-to-account capability. We think that's a fast-growing payment rail. And over time, we'll certainly with our KYC and our AML capabilities, we see crypto as a potential form of payment, not just a form of investment. So how do you get all the ways to pay, so a merchant or a client can simply just sell more. The third piece, though, is where we really start to specialize incredibly deep risk and regulatory management. We have over 300 people in risk and compliance. It's quite unique for a payment company, very strong regulatory management, understanding of the online sports betting world, very deep bank relationships so we can take on harder to get to industries. And finally, we're not a generic player. We like to go deep in the industries. We're the leading player in sports betting and online casino poker. We really like the crypto and NFT space. We think that's going to be very disruptive. Digital goods like video gaming and travel, where there's always a risk component either on the credit side or on the compliance side where we can differentiate as well. So those 4 pieces, when we combine it, we win the deals that we want to win. The third key message is we've been on a journey, lots of assets have been bought over the last several years. I came in 2.5 years ago, and we've embarked on really driving fast tech platform integration and cost management. And again, this is another thing in the partnership with Cannae in terms of the discipline and the focus. Single API now to integrate all of our products, single-risk platform well ahead on, on moving from basically 0% to well over 70% of our business now in the cloud, and we'll complete that journey in 2022. That gives us incredible scalability that we didn't have before. The risk team has really grown, driving down cost, the cost of credit loss and fraud with less people. We're on a cost plan. We've beaten that for this year. We'll take those repeatable costs into next year, and we'll add a further $20 million of cost takeout as well. And then finally, integrating, so executing there. We bought 3 companies at the end of the summer. Two have closed. SafetyPay will close in January. But to give you an example, PagoEfectivo closed 60 days ago, technology is fully integrated. 16 of our global clients are now trading in Latin America, and we did our first transactions with one of the largest online sports betting companies just yesterday from close to yesterday 60 days. So we feel really good about how the team is executing at pace. And I think the last message that really matters to us at Paysafe is North America iGaming. That's clearly one of the fastest growing digital commerce markets that we see in the world. It's growing fast as it is. But it's just early innings. Florida, California, New York, Texas have not even begun. So there's lots of markets yet to be open. Canada is just opening now with Ontario. We're the #1 player in Canada, 100% of the regulated gaming currently goes through our gateway. 75% of the operators in the U.S. are plugged into us. So we feel good about that. We have a nice pipeline of more clients and states that we'll be announcing. We're seeing eCash really start to grow. So we grow mainly through gateway and card. Our eCash product is starting to get some competitive takeaways. Our Digital Wallet continues to grow. It's a much small base, but we really like it. It's higher average ticket, repeat jumbo transactions for our VIP players. So we're building the proof points to show that we can beat existing products in the market. We just got to get it to more Tier 1 players and get scale behind it. And then finally, while we're the gateway, we have 2 acquirers, both FIS and Fiserv. We will double the amount of back-end acquirers in the next 6, 7 months. So we're really expanding that. That gives us flexibility, and it gives, more importantly our clients, a lot more choice and value as well. So those are the 4 big pieces if you were to summarize what's driving Paysafe value. And let me just bring it to life, George, with two examples. The first one, this is a signed deal, not publicly announced. It's a major gaming brand. It's a well-known brand in the U.S. and globally. They have both online gaming in several states as well as in casino presence. Besides that, they -- needing card processing solutions. They have a real cash problem. They've got real cash usage in some of their physical sites. And they want those customers to be plugged in into the online world as well and have a seamless kind of app experience. So that was a big issue. They needed card processing, but they needed more than that. They needed a cash solution. They need global support and they do have a pretty big VIP population where our Skrill wallet could really support them. And so that's a complex need. And we've won the deal by, a, having deep relationships in the industry. We're ready on day 1 with all the regulatory needs in all of their states and their emerging states. Our eCash solution, we took away from another supplier, able to put it all into a single API integration. And they really like the VIP capability to see that as a day 2 opportunity to build on the Skrill platform. So we're really excited about that. This is a competitive takeaway in New Jersey and Iowa as well where we're taking volume from an incumbent. So we're pretty excited about the combination of how we win. The second example is another signed deal to be announced, hopefully, in Q1. We're very active in crypto. We have 40 cryptocurrencies that you can trade in the Skrill wallet. There's been some nice growth in there. We want to see more from that. We also process cards on about 7, 8 platforms, crypto exchanges. But we're starting to work now with the crypto exchanges in a much more holistic way, looking at their full end-to-end needs, bringing all of our products together. And in the example here, we're dealing with an extremely fast grower, very disruptive, very scaled. You're talking 30, 40, 50 country market presence, very demanding in their user experience and their technology. So you have to be able to keep up with them on that. Two extremely complex risk and regulatory needs. They've got to plug into e-money licenses. They need help and support on KYC and AML services. The access to not only card processing, our Skrill wallet and our eCash, they want access to real-time banking. They want IBAN accounts to do bank transactions at scale. So they want all those multiple ways to pay. And what's great is our team really worked very fast. We have the card processing, we have single API give all the products. But we really start to take our wallet platform and look at the capabilities and allow kind of API connections, so they can take our wallet capabilities. They can still have Skrill fund in, but they can take lots of our wallet capabilities and create almost an embedded finance solution. You plug in, you can do your own pay in, pay outs within your own app. You can access our EMI license, our KYC service. You can access real-time banking as well as cards, paysafecards, Skrill. So that combination of risk capabilities, opening up our wallet to create embedded finance and plugging in all those payment rails really made a difference in a highly contested client. So we're pretty excited about this. We think this is going to be a pretty nice emerging area for us. So that's the story, George, in a nutshell.

Thank you for that overview. Obviously, a lot to unpack. So why don't we just start off on the consumer side because I think that is certainly a key differentiator for you guys relative to a lot of your other payment processing peers. And I guess, focusing on the wallet that you talked about there, Phil, how do you think about positioning Skrill, NETELLER versus some of the other more popular wallets that we hear about, the PayPals, the Venmos, the Square Cash Apps and the like? How do you position your solutions relative to those? Those guys are always talking about the super app, for example, and all these different functionalities. And how should we be thinking about the products, say, U.S. versus Europe?

Yes. No, it's -- so I think the first thing is having a consumer base as well as the merchant base absolutely makes a huge difference. So we have 15 million active customers across paysafecard, Skrill, NETELLER, you could introduce that into a merchant, especially because they're focused on trading and gaming. And that makes a huge difference. You can do co-marketing, you can really work with us. That makes a big difference. Within the pure digital wallet space, the PayPals, the Cash Apps, the AliPays, the super apps, we're not going to try to compete at that level across the generic super app space. The amount of marketing spend involved in there, the profitability of some of the people trying to follow has extremely long, and I think, questionable road. So we're very focused in industries. Skrill and NETELLER are absolutely focused in the gaming and in the trading world, where there's a lot of overlap with customers. They're a larger ticket. They're sophisticated. They need to fund from multiple countries. VIP support makes a big, big difference, working with banks and managing fraud is a higher level than in a generic app. So these are the things that we do that also work with our clients, so the merchants as well as our consumers to make those products attractive. In the U.S. market, it's a very similar playbook. It's obviously from a smaller base. But we looked at that business, so we're working on the Skrill brand only. We're focused on instant funding, higher ticket instant funding, more ways to pay than to fund in versus, let's say, a PayPal in the market. And again, VIP support and servicing. So those elements work. And what we're seeing today is higher average ticket. We're on the top end of conversions. We're seeing repeat jumbo funding into the wallet, which is good, so the same customers going back and these are jumbo users enjoying it. So we've got 11 operators today. What we really need to break through is really work with the Tier 1s to really promote it. So we're building out the proof points, having the conversations, figuring out where we are on their debt cycle to plug in. So it's going to take time, but we really do like where it's going. And then the third piece is what I mentioned earlier, really exposing our digital wallet capabilities as a platform. You've heard a light talk about it, right? You heard Dave Ossip talk about it at Ceridian, very similar capability. We KYC millions of consumers globally. We have a very, very sophisticated EMI license network. We have lots of plug into APMs and ways to fund and we can sell that with our proprietary brand, but more and more, we're seeing clients. They want our gateway, but they want that wallet platform as well as to make a difference. And we think that's another interesting difference maker in the wallet world.

Is it sort of safe to say that, focusing again maybe on a handful of industries, you're sort of creating a two-sided network, merchant and consumer coming together. That's the idea of where you're going with this.

Absolutely. That makes a huge difference in terms of being able to drive value. And ultimately, at the end of the day, it's got to work for the consumer. And -- but the biggest metric from here will be helping our clients sell more. And if you can bring consumers into their environment, more ways to pay, the merchant sells more. They promote your products more, which drives more sign-ups. It's a virtuous circle.

Great. Phil, you talked about sort of a reset in the wallet business, making some changes there that will improve the growth rate and sort of the optimal approach for going to market. Maybe you could elaborate that a little bit and maybe talk a little bit about how you're thinking about long-term growth rates for that specific segment. I know it attracts a lot of attention.

Yes. No, obviously, that's been the story, right, both good and bad. So we had a pretty big reset in Q3. That's a tough story. It's not -- definitely not a story where we wanted to be. But within that -- within the reset, we are very clear about while there's growth plans, we also had to reset the risk profile, too. We exited some very high-risk channels, some very, very high-risk markets. But equally, in doing that, I think as a team, we lost some of the folks on being very sharp in some of the more mature incumbent markets where we need to be closer to the client needs. And that's what you saw with the reset in Q3. So the Q3 earnings, we talked about reset and respond. On the reset side, I'd really say there are two things. One, we did a market-by-market, client-by-client review, took a pretty conservative ground at baseline to baseline that business, and that's what we talked a lot about in Q3. Two, we reorganized. We brought in new management. Chirag ran payments internationally at Amazon. He's landed extremely well. We've reorganized the entire team. We've already rightsized that we talked about that, that's already done, took out all the kind of bottom performers out before Thanksgiving. And we've also combined all of enterprise sales across digital wallets, across eCash and across card gateway into a single team internationally. We do it for North America iGaming. We did it globally. And we think that's a very, very powerful focus on our clients to reengage them. So that's the first part of the reset. In terms of responding, we talked about a few things: pricing. There's some pricing areas to fix where we could be more aggressive, more competitive but also some areas where value is being dropped. About -- I'd say about 60%, 70% of those actions already completed, coded and live and so some good data points. I want more time before I'm really confident on that, but we like what's happening. User experience and the onboarding is already improving. Chirag has a very, very, very aggressive customer UX mindset, coming from Amazon. And then finally, the client engagement, we're doing lots of campaigns to drive more growth than we traditionally have in those markets. So that's one. The area that's exciting, though, that's all about baseline and getting back to good growth. To get back to big growth, where are the areas? And we really see 3 things. We like the wallet in the U.S. It's small, but it's growing at very, very strong double digits per month, right? So from a small base, that can ramp up over time. Two is crypto. We trade 40 cryptocurrencies. I talked about the wallet capabilities with crypto. And then three, the wallet as a platform, this kind of embedded finance. We're seeing demand. The client we're talking about here is scaled. We have 4 other NDAs -- sorry, 3 other NDAs with clients, interested in the same type of solutions. So those 3 pieces, we think, as they bed down and get traction, can get the wallet back to the high-growth expectations. But we're not there yet. It's going to take us, as we said, through 2022 to prove that out.

Okay. No, that's super helpful. Obviously, a big area of focus. Wanted to ask you a high-level question here. Obviously, you've been in the payments space for a very long time. You've got the scars to show it. Given all the discussion around disruption in the space or maybe I should call it perceived disruption in the space, where you've got a number of different payment methods potentially coming down the road, whether it's buy now, pay later or account to account, ACH, crypto and the like, what does that mean for Paysafe's business? And I'm curious if there's one solution that maybe worries you more than the other? Or maybe you feel good about all of them. Just curious, your role there.

Yes, there's a lot of talk now about traditional versus disruptive players and there's kind of the winner and loser category. And for Paysafe, some of the financial challenges that we've had in terms of not beating our targets, it's been about risk. It's been about risk resetting. It's not been about product or capabilities or staying in lockstep with a disruptive player. So that -- it's a big distinction. What we see is the following, the payments world will absolutely get more complex. You will use your credit card online, you will use all sorts of wallets from the big mega retailer wallets like PayPal and Apple Pay to lots and lots, you heard about today, there's some different wallets out there, people are getting used to stored -- very smart stored value. There'll be multiple ways to pay. I think real-time banking or account-to-account is a megatrend. Look, in Latin America, cards cap out at 30% of the population. Well, 70% wants to pay online and they're using banks, bank accounts and cash still. So you've got to be able to provide all the ways to pay. And that gets very, very complicated. So as this emerges, I get very excited because the more complex it is, the more of a role I have with my clients to take that complexity out, integrate once all the multiple ways to pay, provide that risk management, provide the focus on their needs so that they can grow. So these trends really play to Paysafe's strength. And so we're very excited about it. I think the big disruptive ones, I do think account-to-account is big. I think that's a big trend that will attack card share. And I think crypto will have a lot of hype, but will actually be small in percentage of payments, but it will grow. I don't think that's a next 2-, 3-year thing. I think it's a 5- to 10-year. And I think the entire metaverse NFT doing everything virtually. I think that's as big as the dot-com boom. I spent a lot of time in that world, looking at how 25- to 35-year-old mainly guys are buying NFTs, playing Z. And what you're seeing is a huge mix of video gaming, sports betting and investing all combined together using wallets, sometimes with no fee out at all, it's pure crypto. And to be good at that, you need to be good at sports betting, video gaming, investing crypto and wallets. And that just feels like that ticks a lot of boxes for us, so.

That's a lot of stuff there. I appreciate that color. It's definitely a topic du jour in payments land as you can appreciate the last couple of months. Maybe expanding a little bit on that last question. And Izzy, feel free here to give us your take on this. But obviously, you guys have very healthy take rates. I think 140 basis points is what you're targeting. Big part of that is the consumer side of it, obviously, where you have exposure. What gives you confidence, again, giving all these sort of perceived changes, I'll call them that, within the [ payment ] system that you're able to maintain that nice take rate really for Paysafe?

Give it a shot, and I can add some color.

Yes, sure. Yes, it's interesting. Our take rate is really -- if you think about it, it goes back to what Phil just said, it's -- if you can help the merchant sell, they will pay you, right? eCash is a great example. I think Philip asked the question when he first joined, I asked it, 7% take rates, how is that sustainable? How does that work. Well, we're introducing close to 9 million-plus customers, 1 million distribution points to online retailers who cannot access those customers. They gladly pay us a 7% we share with distribution. Consumer, it's free. It's great for the consumer. And that's very -- it's been very sustained over the years. As a matter of fact, in 2021, it's higher than usual. For the wallet, it's what you can do. Again, it's predominantly merchant-driven. We bring the consumers. But the merchants are going to drive business there. And on the gaming side, we do. We earn an attractive take rate. That's been, again, higher than usual this year. We think that [ also helped ]. And then when you go to integrated processing, that is one where it's a little different. It is steadier. It is a lot more price compression. It's volume growth, but those are the -- you want to see that. You want to see high volume growth to help your clients and merchants grow. And you'll see more kind of contract-driven or threshold-driven take rate compression. But overall, it's really within our 3 businesses, take rates are relatively stable. It's just where the volume growth drives [ through all ] take rate.

Yes. I think, George and I were talking about it earlier. Look, there's a view that everything will consolidate down and then the take rates will plummet. And there's always been a tendency in payments to oversimplify. There'll be one payment form factor. Everyone will go to a wallet. Everyone will go to a single card. And it's always wrong. People pay multiple ways. It's actually getting more complex. And the consolidation does drive down margins. So card processing used to be wildly profitable. And it's really shrunk down where wholesale processing, you're in the 2, 3 basis points on a good day. But then companies added value on that. They added software. They added auto-boarding capabilities, risk capabilities. They're earning 50, 60 basis points. Other people like ISVs and the Shopifys of the world added software, they're charging 150, 200 basis points. So it's not about everything going down to a low base rate. It's picking your rails and adding value on top of it. So real-time banking is competitively placed in Europe. But what you're seeing is, if you do it well with good user experience, you never leave the client pay page, you're linked with other ways to pay, maybe you can add some KYC and some FX, or you can take a 5, 10 basis point business, and that could become a 150 basis point business pretty easily if you do it the right way. So I think that trend will repeat itself over and over again in payments.

I fully agree. I wanted to move on to another high-level topic, and that's obviously consolidation. You can't talk about payments without consolidation at the end of the day, and you were part of that in 2019. But I'm just curious how you look at the industry right now, if you think it's ripe for additional consolidation. And what role does Paysafe play? Do you want more scale? Is it geographic? Is it technology that you want to get? Where are you guys focused?

Sure, sure. So yes, I think everyone, if you -- I think if you go back and take claims over the last 20 years, everyone's claimed that the market is consolidated and they've been wrong over and over again. And the best way to do it is just look at the top 20 payment players. Look at them every 12 months. They're totally different. So you think it's consolidated up and then a new player comes up. So what's really happening is the pie is expanding, right? It's gone from traditional wholesale process to a handful of ISOs. You have the ISV players coming in. Now you have all these different payment rails coming in. So I think there will be lots of consolidation. But the breadth of payment, the expansive services that you do, so the embedded finance concept, these are things that will continue to allow new players to crop up. So there'll be consolidation and then new players coming up and it just repeats itself. So that's kind of my macro view on it. I don't think there's some end game happening at all. And actually, to go back to the whole crypto space, you talk to these players. They look at Silicon Valley and the unicorns that we talk about now, they think of them as very much yesterday's news, right? So this thing will repeat. Look, for us, we've been very clear in a few areas. We're going to continue to look at deals that really enhance our position to win in North America iGaming in particular. Two, we're going to look at alternate payment methods, so more payment rails that we can plug into a single API. That could be a wallet, that could be a real-time banking function. It could be a gateway that gives me a bit more geographic reach. And then three, eCash, that's a plug-and-play for us. You buy a geography, take out the cost, you plug our consumers in. So those 3 areas are the 3 that will continue to fish in. Look, SafetyPay for us kind of ticked all those boxes in a way, right? There -- it creates a really scaled real-time banking. We're actually going to really expand in Europe on the base of that. It expanded our eCash network. And the cross-sell with sports betting and cryptos is really happening and pretty exciting for us.

Got you. Got you. Wanted to ask a question, again, you talked about all these different capabilities, these value-added capabilities. And clearly, there's a pricing component associated with them. But when you look at the business model, how important is full-stack processing to you? I know you talked about additional processing relationships, but having kind of a gateway of acquiring, processing. Is that where we're going? And is that where you want to be in the U.S.? Or how do you think about that?

Yes. The -- certainly, to me, gateway still remains the most important because that's the point of -- think about all the topics we just talked about, more complexity, more ways to pay, more services. The gateway is integration layer where you're capturing data, you're linking it to your client and you can plug in more services and become stickier. So I still see that as the biggest battlefield. The acquiring, in Europe, we definitely do gateway acquiring and then we leverage ours to do the back-end clearing and settlement for us. So we don't do the processing side. And I don't see any plans for us to be a processor. That's pretty big legacy tech at scale. It could be bought extremely cheaply and effectively. And that's not where I want to deploy our capital. In the U.S., what we are seeing though is gateway to acquiring. So we have a big U.S. SMB business. We're a very scale player there. And we have gateway single boarding and we're an acquirer. We process off of TSYS and Fiserv. In the kind of iGaming and digital commerce world, we have FIS. We have Fiserv now growing more and more, and we'll add two more. So where we want to be is in the acquiring space, but we want to be multi acquired. So that gives the client options and it gives us risk and pricing optionality with the clients. So that's where we're going with the stack there.

Okay. Okay. You've talked at length about gateway. I'm just curious how you're thinking about gateway versus direct integrations that we're hearing from some of these larger merchants. Smaller merchants are going to rely on gateway, larger guys want direct integrations. How do you see that playing out?

Yes. That view -- I mean, it's definitely an option out there. And I think there's one analysis that was done, I think, in the last year that's really colored that view, especially in the gaming industry. The way I talk about it is, one, let's take large clients, not just gaming clients. Take an Odeon, okay? Odeon's clients are Google and Facebook, fairly large clients, right? They still need a gateway, right? They're not doing direct integrations. Why? These guys have endless [ sums ]. So -- and in our world, in the sports betting and iGaming, we're integrated with some of the largest players. There are 2 players in particular, that have done a direct integration. The vast majority of the market is not a direct integration right now. And what we're seeing is, again, there's a war of investment to win in sports betting. You need customers. You need capabilities. To go into the payment side is a lot of effort. There's a lot of effort. You heard Sightline. They're solving pretty complex issues in casino that the casino doesn't want to do. They need somebody to partner with, to do it. I see the same way, multi-acquirers, adding multiple APMs, more and more KYC issues as well. If you can take that problem off of their plate, they can focus on selling to consumers, I can focus on the payment. I think that is still very strong. Our clients are very large scale and continue to invest in that. And even the comment about the smaller and midsized players, you have to remember, most of the smaller, midsized players may have smaller sports betting businesses, but they're plugged into mega platform, Scientific Games, Playtech, Entain. And so all of our clients are big, but they still need gateway solutions. So we don't see that and we don't hear that so much. There have been two examples. It's not a trend that colors our strategy.

Okay. That's great. I think we have time for one more. I know we haven't mentioned eCash yet. So maybe you guys can talk about that a little bit. I mean it's something, again, how do you view that solution in sort of a faster payments world and in sort of serving maybe the needs of some of the more unbanked individuals that are out there?

Yes. As Izzy said, when any time you come in, you start looking at eCash, I think I've said this multiple times on different calls. You think cash and digital, and it's kind of -- this can't be a good business because cash is clearly dying. And as you spend more time with it, the cash is probably the single largest payment addressable market in the world still. Despite all of our efforts across all the companies, the amount of cash being used for payments in the world grew last year. It did not shrink. So that's part one. Two, what we've really seen with the product, it really addresses a hard-to-get-to segment, which is two, kind of Gen Z, young emerging consumers and underbanked. U.S. has a fairly large underbanked population. We're seeing demand in debt collection, in health payments, in gaming, where people don't want to use a credit card, they don't have access to it. Or if they do, they don't want to expose it. They're very, very particular about how and when they use a card. So there is a demand for this use case. So a kid in Brazil wants to download on Spotify, a kid in Poland wants to play Fortnite. More and more -- a kid in Norway who wants to buy Ethereum, right? They've got $50 of tips and they want in, how do they do it? And so our solution, as Izzy said, 70 countries to 1 million distribution points, you can prepay, you can also post-pay. So we're also seeing now, for instance, all of the neobanks, Monese, N26, Bunq, TSB, these are the biggest neobanks in Europe. They're challenging the traditional banks. You still need cash, right? We're becoming the cash-in, cash-out solution for them. I have 1 million distribution points. You can just barcode it, deposit money in, pull money out at the 7-Eleven or the Shell, and we do it at a wildly cheap price. So we really like the use cases here. And then finally, what we're seeing is we've gone from kind of one-off transactional. We've been KYC-ing the customers. We're allowing them to store it into an app, effectively a wallet. And we've moved 8.5 million transactional consumers into a KYC wallet to start building that relationship. We've done that in 18 months. So there's clearly a demand for it. That wouldn't happen if people didn't really want to use it.

Well, great. Well, I think we have to stop there. Thank you, everyone. And Phil, Izzy, thank you so much for your time.

Thanks, George.

Thanks.