Pennar Industries Limited (513228) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Ladies and gentlemen, good day, and welcome to the Pennar Industries Limited Q4 FY '23 Earnings Conference Call, hosted by PhillipCapital (India) Private Limited. This conference call may contain forward-looking statements about the company, which are based on the beliefs, opinions and expectation of the company as on date of this call. These statements are not guarantees of future performance and involve risks and uncertainties that are difficult to predict. [Operator Instructions] Please note that this conference is being recorded. I now hand the conference over to Mr. Vikram Vilas Suryavanshi from PhillipCapital (India) Private Limited. Thank you, and over to you, sir.

Thank you, Ryan. Good morning, and very warm welcome to everyone. Thank you for being on the call of Pennar Industries Limited. We are happy to have with us management of Pennar Industries for question-and-answer session with investment community. The management is represented by Mr. Aditya Rao, Vice Chairman and Managing Director; Mr. Shrikant Bhakkad, Vice President, Finance and Chief Financial Officer; Mr. Manoj, Head Corporate Affairs; and Mr. K M Sunil, Vice President, Investor Relations. Before we start with the question-and-answer session, we have opening comments from the management. Now I hand over call to Mr. Aditya for opening comments. Over to you, sir.

Thank you, Vikram. I hope I'm audible. Please let me know if I'm not.

Yes, you are audible, sir. Yes.

Thanks. My thank you to the moderators and our stakeholders for joining the call today on Pennar Industries Q4 and FY 2023 financial results. The structure we will follow will first cover our profitability, our liquidity and our growth. Post that, our CFO, Mr. Shrikant Bhakkad, will present his analysis of our results. We will take questions from all of you after that. So for the overview, we recorded net sales of INR 668.4 crores for the fourth quarter. Our PBT for the fourth quarter was INR 30.63 crores. For the financial year, we recorded net sales of INR 2,894 crores, and our PBT was INR 98.44 crores. This represents growth of about 27.7% in net sales and about 76% in PBT. Cash profit, which we generated for the year prior to payment of taxes, was INR 140 crores. And the PBDT was [ INR 160.4 crores ], which represents growth of 48.5%. We had committed that our PBT would be the highest ever after accounting for extraordinary items in previous years, and we are -- I'm glad to know that we have achieved that with a PBT of INR 98.44 crores for the year. And if you look at our cash profit reserve, that is also the highest cash profit in the quarter at INR 140 crores. The PBT, we generated INR 30.63 crores for the quarter was at a margin of 4.58%. As committed, we expect further improvements in our PBT margin as we continue to move from lower-margin revenue profile to higher-margin revenue. And this also has an effective increase in our capital efficiency. Our cash PAT for Q4 was INR 41.1 crores, which we generated a margin of 6.15%. Moving to liquidity and capital efficiency. Our working capital days as on March 31 was at around 75. Our growth for the year was 19.8%. And the annualized growth was substantially higher, which was good. Now we had indicated that we had wanted to see a ROCE of about 20% being achieved by March 2023. And again, we're glad to have achieved it just like we hit our profit targets. Our target for the next financial year is to achieve a ROCE of 22%, and working capital, our target is 72 days. Moving to growth drivers, what's going to drive our revenue and our profitability growth in the future. For the next quarter and for the financial year, our PEB division, our U.S. subsidiary PGI, our Body in White division and our Engineering Services business all have well-baked business plans, which are -- with a degree of confidence, we are sure that they will continue to drive revenue and profitability growth for us for the next few quarters, for the next financial year. We are continuing to work on growth projects for our hydraulics, a large diameter tube and our module business. And we are hopeful that once these business unit CapEx is -- these assets get commissioned, they will also continue to be significant drivers of our revenue growth once completed. So that completes my summary of our performance for the quarter and the financial year, covering profitability, liquidity and growth. I will now hand over the call to Shrikant for his comments.

Thanks, Aditya. Welcome to the shareholders on the fourth quarter and the year ended financial '23 earnings call. The key metrics for the year, predominantly revenue has increased from INR 2,265 crores to INR 2,894 crores, which is a growth of 28%. Broadly, if you see the revenue, this is coming in consolidation as well as standalone. The increase in revenue in standalone is INR 294 crores, and in subsidiaries, it is [ INR 335 crores ], which gross up to INR 694 crores. The increase in the U.S. business is presently -- from the metal buildings division. What we have in India, it is coming from the BIW vertical, PEB vertical and ECD division what we had in the last year. EBITDA has increased from INR 188.42 crores to INR 254.62 crores, which is 35%. And in terms of percentage, it has increased from 8.31% to 8.8%, which is 50 basis points higher than last year. PBT was at INR 98.43 crores. We are also happy to inform the shareholders, we have reached the highest-ever profit after removing the exceptional items, which was there in 2017/'18. Just to take you through the movement of the balance sheet and cash flows. Movements in terms of PPE is the major when compared to last year to current year. This is on account of the BIW capitalization, which we had last year, INR 55 crores, and in India and in the U.S. around close to INR 15 crores. Even with the increased sales, we are able to reduce our betas, which [ was around ] [indiscernible] from INR 425 crores to INR 381 crores. This was a decrease of INR 44 crores. And in terms of number of this, this has helped up get our working capital days as well, which is close to 20 days. You see the increase in inventory. Increase in inventory predominantly is for the quarter -- subsequent quarters that we have taken. In terms of liabilities, the reduction is in the equity share capital is due to the buyback that we had in the last year. Overall, in terms of long-term borrowings, there is no movement, and it is from INR 98.59 crores to INR 98.82 crores. The increase in the short-term borrowings that you see from 489 to 522 days, it is because of the increase in the working capital. Overall, working capital number of days as adjusted [indiscernible] 75 days when we take the gross working capital. As we discussed, we are in the process of shutting down our lower-margin businesses, part of it, and which is helping us improve our top line -- and which is basically improving the bottom line, sorry. With the better working capital measures, we are also able to reduce our finance cost or finance cost as a percentage of our total cost, has come down below 3%. But as we see the revenue increasing, the finance cost will be as a percentage of the gross revenue. It will continue to be 3% and net revenue around 3.3%. The other income includes foreign exchange fluctuation, duty drawback, income from mutual funds and certain write-back of the old debtors and provisions which we have collected. Our ROC has improved from 14.7% to 19.98% for the full financial year, and our ROE has improved from 5.69% to 9.68%. We are sitting at the highest ever cash balance of INR 172 crores, and if you add up the investments that we have in the mutual funds, it is close to INR 199 crores. So with this, I close my comments and hand it over to the moderators for the Q&A session.

[Operator Instructions] Our first question comes from Mayur Liman with Profitmart Securities.

Congratulations on the good set of numbers, sir. Sir, I just...

Mayurji, can I request you to speak up a little bit? Sir, your voice is not audible.

Okay. Sir, no problem. Now it is good?

Yes, it's better. Go ahead, sir, please.

Okay. I just want to guidance on the -- what are the key steps we are taking towards the railway and tube to scale up the revenue?

Okay. You -- the 2 of the revenue streams you mentioned were railways and tubes. Railways in the current quarter is doing well, and we expect the next quarter also, it will do well. But however, as I've been mentioning in previous conference call, our growth drivers right now are the BIW division, PEB, engineering services, PGI and the subsidiaries, all of them are poised for driving our bottom line growth and our capital efficiency strongly. Railways, most of it coming from well, the Railway Board. I don't have a lot of transparency into how sustainable these revenue streams are. So in the short term, it's doing well. It will do better than what it did in the last few quarters in Q1 and Q2. But I don't have a sunlight for you in terms of an [ abject ] addressable market value proposition for railway, which will scale over the next few years. So as of right now, we are not deploying any additional CapEx into railways. Our existing assets' capacity utilization increase will result in revenue growth. That's for railways. For tubes, at the other end, I think the large diameter tube project is something we find very compelling. We think our markets in India, both in India and as an export market of the U.S. are very, very strong, and we've had an uptick in our tube supplies to the U.S. as well. So I'm quite confident that once we complete the implementation of the project, we will be able to see a dramatic increase in our tubes revenue and our tubes output. So that is projected to be completed in this financial year.

Okay, sir. And second question on the Ascent business, what kind of movement do you see in the Ascent business -- Ascent Building business? And which things give you the confidence about the future performance of [indiscernible] and build?

So Ascent is a metal buildings business in the U.S., and it has, as I'm sure you're aware, done very well last year, and we expect it to do better than that this year as well. Our capacity increase over there is being commissioned. We are adding a beam line. We're also adding other supportive capital assets. Our order book there is quite strong. It's been growing for the last 3 or 4 months. I know there's been talk of a U.S. recession or a decrease in our potentially in addressable markets. But from what I see, and as I mentioned last time, maybe the tech sector, we are not in that sector, so I can't really comment intelligently about that. But where we are present, which is the nonresidential construction sector in the U.S., I think it's as strong as it is. So we expect a very strong Q1 and a very strong financial year. So just increase of order book combined with an increase in our capacity in the U.S. will make sure Ascent will continue to do well. So did that answer your question or...

Yes, sir. And the last question, how do you see the FY '24 in terms of the order book side and the domestic and the international business side, specifically Europe side?

Yes. So I will break that up into domestic versus international, which is not actually the standalone versus consolidated. It doesn't actually break up that way because there's a lot of exports. But from a market point of view, our order books are -- PEB are at a record high. Our order books in Ascent are also at a high, as I mentioned. Our orders in solar are quite strong. Railway is also going up, but there's caveats to what we're projecting as far as railways is concerned. So we don't see addressable market decline, which is what results in order book decline, which is what results in revenue, say, profitability not being able to scale. So in our growth drivers, we don't see a decrease there. Both the domestic and international revenue streams we have will continue to do well, and we are projecting that, that is -- there is good, strong, consistent addressable market and order books that are there for us for both the domestic and international business. From an attribution business, I think whatever the percentage we've been seeing, the significant majority of it will be domestic, and some of it will be international, say, about -- around 30%. So that trend will continue. We don't expect higher growth in international or exports versus domestic. Both are growing. Both are doing -- are performing as per our expectations.

Our next question comes from [ Venkat Subramanian ] with [ Organic Capital ].

Congratulations on running a really tight ship from -- under challenging circumstances. A couple of questions from my side. In the year that's gone by, what are the areas that have kind of made you happy? And what are the areas that you could have potentially improved? Two, there is a fair amount of excitement in the railways addressable area in the domestic market. You, having gone through what you have, are quite circumspect there. So you wanted to concentrate in the railway assets on some of the export opportunities or some more value-add opportunities, et cetera. Where are we with respect to that? And thirdly, we had a small tuck-in in Europe for -- which was one of our customers who we thought could open up some dose on the aviation side. So if you can just give some update on that.

Thank you. Thank you, sir. So the happy and sad areas of last year. What was happy was that we achieved our financial metrics. I wouldn't say sad, but I take it more as a challenge. Some of the areas, I think, that we should work on is further improvements in capital efficiency. I think aspirationally, 20% ROCE is not appropriate, Aspirationally, our cash profit base of 6% PAT -- cash PAT margins are not appropriate. I think we have to head to a place where we are better in terms of margins, add more value to our products, have good, long sustainable markets. So that exercise is ongoing, and it's a challenge. I think with BIW coming on, with our U.S. business going, with engineering services increasing, with hydraulics increasing, it was large [indiscernible]. All of these are high-margin businesses. All of these are capital-efficient businesses. So I think our long-term -- medium-term growth is to hit 30% ROCE. We're right now quite confident '22, '23, '24, but over the next 2, 3 years, steady measured improvements in these 2 metrics. So we push our PBT margin up, and we push our gross margin up is [ not ] good, and that's the challenge ahead of us. And we're quite -- every team, I can commit to you that we are very enthusiastic about having to work on those areas. I think we are thinking that we will see. It will be hard work, but we are committed to achieving it. Railways, as you mentioned, yes, I talk with some of our competitors. I talk with people who are in other businesses, related businesses for the railways. And yes, I definitely see that there's some amount of energy there. But at least the model that we follow, sir, is good, strong addressable markets with strong assets. If you have both of those, you will always have revenue, and you'd always have profitability. Whenever we see companies not doing well or failing on revenue or profitability, it's either because their addressable markets are not strong or their assets are not strong. There's no other reason really for those. There may be some governmental issues, but that's not relevant right now. So in that vein, single customer, Railway Board controlling the gross capital formation, orders being given state-owned entities, competing with them. The approval base is RDSO. That's -- I don't believe that is a playing ground for us. I don't think that's where we want to build our base. But as you said, we are exploring our export markets. And the railways business is doing well in the sense that if you were to compare Q1 to Q1, if you were to Q3, Q4, growth is there. And it remains a good margin business. I'm just saying that for us, it's not just what happens in this quarter or next quarter. I would like us to think of what happens over years, right? Where is -- what is Pennar going to look like 5 years from now? That's a more important question. On your last question on Cadnum, sir, it has -- I'm happy to report it has turned profitable. Early days still, but I am quite confident we have a new CEO for that business as well. [ Mr. Patel ], who's joined us and from a large multinational aerospace firm. And I think we will -- we are committed to growing that business, and it's profitable now. And by the end of the year, I think it will start contributing to our -- there will be profitability as well. But these are small businesses and addressable markets right now. Over time, they will become more mature. For this financial year, our growth drivers will continue to be, as I mentioned, PGI, PEB, BIW, engineering services. And by the end of the year, hydraulics, large diameter will also start pushing. So there are multiple growth verticals, 4 or 5, which are looking very promising. All the order books look good and strong. India looks strong. U.S. looks strong for us in the markets represented. So I think we'll do the work to make railways and our aerospace BU into something that follows the same paradigm.

Wonderful. Wonderful. Happy to hear. A couple of more. One, if CFO can report on an ongoing basis, the write-offs that we did as of about 4, 5 -- 3, 4 years ago and what the recoveries on that have been. And on a regular basis, report on ECL provisions and then recovery thereof on a consistent basis, I think it will be useful.

Shrikant, do you want to answer when you can do that?

Yes. We've actually report those numbers as part of other income, does that cover up, but we'll give you broad numbers there. I think this INR 13 crores is what the number that we have, which is collected whatever we have provisioned earlier years. And ECL provision continues to be higher. So you will have this -- because of the standard where it is, you will have the higher provisions, which will come in the current year as well. But by next year, this will moderate off, and you will not see the further increase in those provisions again.

Understood. And lastly, Aditya, on the engineering services side, which is the software support that we provide out of Hyderabad and [ Gujarat ]. How are the numbers scaling up there? What kind of additions have you seen? That looks like a fairly large opportunity. What kind of focus do we have there? And what are the challenges there?

Good question, sir. I think, as you mentioned, it is a key focus area for us. The markets we are typically -- we are chasing in that includes building and commission, modeling, structural engineering, automotive, BIW design and also plant engineering. So those are the 4 verticals where we provide engineering services, design services, product development services. It's doing very well from a percentage growth point of view. But both -- I mean all of these together represent, from a revenue point of view, only about INR 70 crores, INR 80 crores. So it's small, even though the margin is substantial. Our goal is that since a lot of these markets are quite big, right? That's why I say addressable markets are [ key here ]. If you're addressable market, if your quote activity is high, then your order book will be high, then your revenue will be high. So on that basis, we are right now expanding our business development team, both in Europe and also in India. U.S., right now, we are not, but that will also come into play by -- over the course of this year. But there's a lot of work in progress happening in this business. But one thing I can tell you right now, we are very bullish about it. It's going to continue to see very good growth. I'm proud of the job that [ Suman ] and his team have done on this business. And I'm sure this will also become -- it's a high-margin business. It's about 20%. I'm certain this will start becoming a key profit vertical for us very soon as well. But yes, that's the status right now.

Our next question comes from [ Gaurav Agarwal ] with [ Ninety One Capital ].

Sir, if I see the difference between your consol and standalone on a quarterly basis, so last quarter, the revenue was from the subsidiary. It was around [ INR 156 crores ], which has reduced to around INR 113 crores now. So one thing is how much of this difference between consol and standalone is related to the engineering business getting in the Ascent U.S. there?

So most of the change that you see is because of Ascent. So let me describe this -- describe the why of this in a little more detail. So in India, we follow the financial year, which is Q1 starts in April, and Q4 obviously, end in March as you're aware I'm sure. So in the U.S., all of our subsidiaries follow and frankly business there usually. January to December is the model that is followed. More importantly, Q4 tends to be the strongest quarter for us in India, usually, not in India, for most Indian companies. Whereas in the U.S., Q4 -- or what we call Q4, is actually Q1 for them, is a time to take stock, make budget plan. There's also a lot of inclement weather at least in the markets that we are present in. So effectively, Q1 tends to be the weakest thing. So it's within a year cyclical variation that you see. Most of our subsidiary income, as I said, comes from PGI. And you will see this number performing better this year -- substantially better this year than last year. And at this point in time, on the basis of our order book being where it's at, which is higher by almost 30% from just 2 months ago, our U.S. order book, I'm not projecting a decline in this year's Ascent's revenue. But you will see these quarter-quarter variations because the strongest quarter for India is actually the weakest quarter for U.S. businesses. So that's the reason you see the revenue attribution going around. Going forward, I think we've done the math. And we think 70%, 75% will be India. 25%, 30% will be outside. That's what we have typically seen from a revenue point of view.

Okay. And sir just to get a bit more clarity. So last year, in FY '23 full year subsidiary numbers are INR 600 crores revenue. So when you say they will do much better, can it be a INR 1,000 crores business in FY '24?

I will not be giving guidance, but I can assure you we will see double-digit growth in both our standalone and our consolidated businesses, which kind of answers your question, but yes.

Okay. Okay. And sir, coming to your margins, again, on the subsidiary side, these is a lot of variability in margins. And if I see the EBITDA margins of the subsidiary numbers, it was at 4.8% in Q2. Then it was 10.7% in Q3. Now it is 12.7%. So now the revenues have declined, but the margins are improving. So sometimes, it doesn't add up. Even the employee expenses, they vary so much. The other expenses vary so much. So what exactly is the nature of business in those subsidiaries?

So our U.S. subsidiaries, I mean -- sorry, our international revenue has always been high-margin. I am not aware of any revenue stream we have, which is outside, which is low margin. That's point one. So any variations you see are just quarter-on-quarter scale impact, which is, as I said, the Q4 to Q1 variations. That does exist. From a point of view of what do our margins -- revenue-wise, what's happening and our margins are going up, that is a stated intent for us. We have, as you may be aware, exited our water EPC business. We have exited our retail business. We've exited our MMS business. These are all large contributors, I mean, hundreds of crores, right? I mean -- and the reason we have done this is because as we finish our order book in these businesses and get out of them, yes, some -- there is a minus from a revenue point of view. But there aren't businesses which we -- for whatever reason, we've not been able to generate sustainable margins or good growth margins on that. We've chosen where we want to grow our businesses, and those are doing well. So since these are higher margin, you will see impacts where our margins consistently tend to improve. That's something that's a statement of intent for us and what you -- not just one quarter. If you see the last, I would say, the 7, 8 quarters, you would see that trend, and that trend will continue. As of right now, for the next financial year also, we are focusing on margin improvement. Revenue also will increase. I think we are -- we have several growth vectors in play, as I mentioned. So our PEB business alone is projecting from last year to this year, we are looking at. Even from a run rate right now point of view, it will be at least a 25%, 30% growth. So I'm optimistic that you will continue to see revenue and profit growth on a yearly basis. Quarter-on-quarter, U.S. versus India, that I wouldn't -- I don't see that as something as a concern.

Our next question comes from [ Ankur Kumar ] with Alpha Capital.

Congrats for a good set of numbers. Sir, my question is on this -- our plan to increase margin and reduce low-margin [ products ]. So what kind of profit growth can we expect for the coming year?

We'll not be giving guidance, but you can have -- I can comfortably commit double-digit growth for Q1 and for the financial year -- next financial year.

And would that mean as in our revenue will continue to go down because in this Q4, it has gone down because we are looking for high-margin products?

No, our revenue will go up as well. We will have -- for Q1, we will see double-digit growth in revenue compared to last year, and we will also see growth in profitability. For the reasons I explained previously, that's a Q4 impact, but -- and also the revenues that we are dropping away, as we said, we're removing the low-margin business. There's an end to that, right? I mean we've almost exited MMS business. It's almost done. So the future impacts of these are quite good. So I don't believe that you have to worry about our revenue going [ downward ]. It's -- revenue growth is important. It's a stated objective for us that we increase our addressable market, thus increasing our asset base, thus increasing our revenue. And that's how we increase it. You can't keep increasing margins also forever. And margin inclines -- margin increases are extremely difficult. But I can comment on whatever revenue we have will be good quality, sustainable and good margin revenue. So you can -- we can commit to revenue growth next quarter, if that's your question.

Got it, sir. And sir, on balance sheet side, our debt is increasing, and also, we have not been paying dividends for the last couple of years. So any thoughts on those 2 things?

Overall debt is flat to my knowledge.

Overall, I just take you through borrowing number. In terms of borrowing, INR 98.59 crores to INR 98.82 crores. That's the long-term borrowing. That's flat. In terms of borrowings, that is an increase of INR 489 crores to INR 522 crores. So when you look at the numbers, you have to look at -- because all the current liability in numbers are predominantly working capital numbers, and working capital will grow up as the revenue goes up. So what you will have to see here is finance cost as a percentage of our total revenue, which we intent to cover between 3% to 3.3%. That's a broad range that we want to give because in certain months does change. So the overall borrowing numbers are flattish. We have not increased our borrowing substantially.

And to your other questions on -- I mean we generated a lot of cash also. Shrikant, I think it's INR 199 crores. Almost, let's say, close to INR 200 crores in cash also has been generated. So debt equity also is looking better. Dividends, corporate actions. The Board will take a call, so we are reviewing. And if we have anything, we would share. It would not be appropriate for me to say anything on that, but we have the buybacks. I would say, we have completed a series of buybacks. In the last buyback, we completed was about 1.5 years -- 1 year ago. This last year itself, when we did that, it's an average price of about [ 45 ]. We are substantially higher than that. So I believe we've had some success in our [ corporate action ] systems. But yes, anything on dividends or anything as the Board has decided, I will share with you.

Got it, sir. And sir, the last thing one on this ROCE calculation, you are saying that we are at 20%. So it would be great if you can put that calculation in the PBT going forward.

Okay. That's -- somehow, it's there. We will conclude that. It is EBIT divided by working capital that have been input. I'll share you the calculation as well.

[ In terms of ] calculation, EBIT divided by capital employed, we'll get that to you.

Our next question comes from Deep Gandhi with Astute Investment Management.

So sir, most of my questions are around the [ PEB win ]. So initially, I just wanted to check with you that in the quarter, if I see your quarter-on-quarter revenue in this business, so it's actually [ degrown ], and we've also seen some reduction in margins. So if you can highlight what was the reason for this.

Yes, so as I mentioned, that would be our U.S. business versus overall. But what I can tell you is that PEB business is actually -- and we see it as a star performance in this quarter. I mean revenues in India are at the highest level ever. Margins have also increased substantially. As I mentioned, Q1 is a time to take stock in the U.S. We also have PEB in the U.S. Even there, the order books are at a high. So I would say you look at it in terms of the year-end question, sir. But from a quarter point of view, Q1 -- but the U.S. is always going to be weak for [ us ]. In India, it's the side of the picture of that. Q1 is actually looking -- sorry, Q4 has been quite strong, and Q1 is even stronger.

So sir, can you break up this number in terms of what was the Indian revenue specifically for PEB and the margin so we can get a sense what has been the growth?

Sure. Our revenue for the last quarter for India versus U.S.

Yes.

If you have these numbers, [ Shrikant ], the PEB versus [indiscernible].

On an average, last year, we did USD 7.25 million currently, which has fallen to USD 6.5 million. So that's the decrease that you see in the U.S. business versus the India business, as the overall year number where we have increased from INR 554 crores to INR 725 crores, which includes the other stuff also, which is -- if you take only PEB business, it is [ INR 394 crores -- INR 396 crores ] versus [ INR 590 crores ] in the India.

So this number you have given for Q4 FY '23 versus Q4 of FY '22, right?

[indiscernible] The INR 590 crores, that's for the full financial year, PEB business in [ India ].

Okay, okay, sure. And what kind of margins you do in the Indian business?

We generate -- well, the operating contribution margins are about 14%, and we expect to improve those substantially. So another bit look at any growth that comes in from [indiscernible] double digit from a profit drop point of view. So...

This 14% is only for the PEB division, right, the margin?

That's correct.

Yes. That's correct.

Okay. Okay. Sure, sir. Sir, my next question is, so you have shared this number that you have a INR 750 crores of order book for PEB. So if you can highlight how many the number of customers from whom you've got this INR 750 crores orders.

So it's pretty diverse. As of right now, I mean, Reliance is like about INR 200 crores is just from Reliance. But it's actually INR 750 crores as of March 31. I apologize if I misspoke. On a right-now basis, it's closer to INR 830 crores. So it's a lot of customer. It's not 1 or 2 or 3 or even 4. I think you would see more than 40. Yes, more than 40. And as of right now, we're active at 30 projects across India. And in the U.S. also, it's around 10 sites right now. So yes.