PHINMA Corporation (PHN) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Good afternoon to everyone. I'm glad you're all here with us now to tap off on today. So thank you for carving out some time from today. I know you might be eager to already start off the holiday for tomorrow. So in case you might not know me yet, I'm Kara Albert, I'm the Investor Relations officer of PHINMA Corp. Joining me here today is EJ Qua Hiansen, PHINMA Corp's Chief Financial Officer. So as usual, we'll start off with a few reminders. First, I will appreciate if you could just take a few seconds to double check that your microphones are on mute so that we have a smooth course during the presentation proper. Second, we'd appreciate if you could reserve first any questions you might have for the Q&A session, which we will have towards the end. And third, during the said Q&A session, you can opt to either send your questions through the Q&A button. That should look something like the screenshot you see there on the screen. Alternatively you can also raise your hand and then we will let you know when you can unmute. Lastly, please note that this briefing is being recorded. So for today's agenda, we'll start off with a brief recap of the industries that the PHINMA Group is in, especially for those who might be joining us for the first time. Then we'll talk a little bit more about the ongoing expansion activities that the group has been engaged in. Following that, we will do a recap of the results in the first half of this year, followed by key highlights from each of the business units. Then we'll wrap it up with an outlook for the group and then the Q&A. Okay. So as many of you might already know, PHINMA's long-standing vision has really been to be able to bridge the gap by bringing essential services to markets that are often underserved or overlooked. And this is our way of not just delivering value to our shareholders, but also doing our part in nation building. And when our vision back in 2014 was released, it confirmed that our businesses are aligned to some of the priority sectors that were identified in that study. So PHINMA Education, obviously, is very clear, helps with the education services sector. Then our Construction Materials Group comprised of Philcement, Union Galvasteel, Union Insulated Panel and PHINMA Solar played their part in the housing and urban development sector, of course, together with PHINMA Properties and our latest venture, PHINMA Community Housing or PHINMA COHO as we call it. Tourism was also identified as a priority sector in that study, and that's where our hospitality arm fits in through PHINMA Microtel Hotels and PHINMA Hospitality since we have the master franchise for the Microtel and TRYP by Wyndham brands here in the Philippines. So knowing this has really given us the drive to push forward with several expansion activities that in the long term, again, fulfill that dual purpose of generating value, both for the company and of course, for the country. So with that, I'll now turn over the floor to EJ to give more insights on this.

Okay. Thank you, Kara, and good afternoon again to everyone, especially our long-time friends. So our strategy at PHINMA Corp is deeply rooted in the inequalities within the Philippines, specifically addressing those inequalities. As Kara has noted, our portfolio is strategically weighted towards sectors that directly impact the low-income segment, aligning our business objectives with national development goals. While our first half results reflected challenges stemming from macroeconomic headwinds that impacted our margins and overall demand, these conditions have actually reinforced our strategic focus. We maintain a long-term investment horizon, recognizing that sustainable growth in the Philippines requires consistent commitment and strategic capital allocation, as you can see on this slide. Over the past few years, we have executed a series of ambitious expansion projects, deploying over PHP 5 billion this year alone. These investments represent the upfront costs associated with fixed and operational expenses, which are projected to yield substantial returns in the medium to long term. Specifically, we anticipate these initiatives and many of these expansion projects to be fully operational in the second half of 2026 and beyond, significantly broadening our revenue base and enhancing our profitability. So let me take a few moments to highlight a few of these key projects and their potential impact. In Education, our recent acquisition of St. Jude College in Dasmarinas Cavite marks a strategic expansion into a new geographic market that we are very bullish on. Concurrently, we are developing new campuses in [indiscernible] , Butuan, San Pablo and Bacolod, and these investments are designed to improve access to quality education to drive enrollment growth while also taking advantage of economies of scale across our education network. In Bacolod, the launch of PHINMA's first township project, Saludad, represents a significant diversification of our revenue streams as well as a significant growth area. This project integrates a TRYP Hotel and an SWU branch with PHINMA Properties while also leveraging our existing construction materials businesses to maximize synergies and achieve returns on investment. Our Construction Materials Group is undergoing strategic expansions as well with key projects, including the 2 Philcement terminals in Mindanao, Davao and Tibungco as well as our cutting-edge insulated panels plant in Porac, Pampanga. These facilities are projected to reduce logistics costs, improve supply chain efficiencies as we get closer to our markets, thereby driving volume and margin improvements as they become fully operational. And these projects are currently on track. Within property, in addition to the Bacolod project, we are strategically pivoting away from the saturated Metro Manila market, focusing on underserved areas in Luzon and Mindanao. Our first 2 community housing or COHO projects are in Davao and Bacolod, which are designed to capture emerging market demand while also generating attractive returns on invested capital, but more importantly, achieving a social objective. We think that these social objectives represent a market inequality that a business such as PHINMA can address. In the hospitality sector, we're expanding our flagship Microtel Mall of Asia and developing our first condotel in Samal Island in Davao. Our partnership with Anflocor Group underscores our ability to establish and maintain strategic alliances, creating synergistic opportunities across multiple business lines. In fact, there are joint venture partners as well in Philcement Mindanao as well as our partners in 2 existing hotels in Mindanao. These projects on stream are integral components of our long-term growth strategy. They're designed to deliver sustainable returns while also contributing to the economic development of the Philippines. We believe these can happen hand-in-hand, and these strategic investments will create significant value for our shareholders in the years to come. To provide context on our financial performance, it's important to note that the second quarter is traditionally our softest, influenced by the seasonality of our education business. However, this year, the strong enrollment growth of PHINMA Education has yielded significant year-on-year increases, and we anticipate realizing the full financial impact of this cohort between September to December of this year. We're looking at once again having record enrollment. Classes began already a few weeks ago, and it's looking positive for us. But our Construction Materials group did experience losses in the first half due to the election spending ban as well as pricing pressures from a competitive market. While we do anticipate these challenges to persist in the near term, we do anticipate a modest recovery in demand driven by infrastructure spending and construction activity in the second half. Concurrently, we're focused on optimizing operational efficiencies to mitigate the pricing pressures that I mentioned while also improving our margins. PHINMA Education as well as PHINMA CMG remain the 2 largest drivers of PHINMA Corporation's financial results. I'll talk a little bit more about property and hospitality later in this presentation. So as illustrated in the preceding slide, PHINMA Education's strong performance only partially offset the softer performance of Construction Materials and Property. Again, Education continues to be the primary contributor to overall profitability, and we anticipate this to continue, although seasonally, first half contributions are typically lower. But we're confident that the combination of our strong enrollment figures as well as the strategic operational enhancements will drive a significant second half turnaround for our corporation. Our strategic expansion initiatives have translated into a 4% year-on-year increase in revenue, reaching PHP 10.8 billion for the first half of this year. This is a record level of revenue for the group. But as previously mentioned, these expansion activities have also resulted in an increase in operating expenses amounting to 8% as well as interest expense of 15% as compared to 2024. Specifically breaking down these interest expenses further related to new loans for expansion activities amounted to PHP 165 million. We do recognize that the persistent macroeconomic headwinds may continue to put pressure on our margins throughout the year. Consequently, consolidated net income for the period was a net loss of PHP 227 million with a loss attributable to equity holders of the parent amounting to PHP 455 million. Despite these short-term challenges, our balance sheet remains robust. It enables us to continue funding high-value activities within our strategic business units. While we are selectively moderating certain activities in response to the global economic environment, we remain focused on identifying new opportunities to complement our existing investments. I guess when we look at new investment opportunities now, we do have to apply, I guess, a greater risk premium to take into account the economic environment. But subsequent to this reporting period, PHINMA Education was able to successfully secure PHP 825 million from Kaizenvest Investment vehicle, which further strengthened its financial position and that of the consolidated balance sheet. Additionally, PHINMA Corporation was able to strategically convert PHP 3.5 billion in short-term loans into long-term loans as part of our proactive strategy to mitigate interest rate risk while optimizing our capital structure. Moving on to Construction Materials. The Construction Materials Group remains the key driver of volume and revenue growth. As depicted on this slide, we anticipate improved demand in the second half, although pricing pressure from increased competition is expected to persist. To address this, CMG is strategically shifting its focus to new products and markets while simultaneously expanding our sales channels. We are observing positive sales momentum, particularly in our newer insulated panels and solar businesses, which are beginning to secure significant contracts with large conglomerates. The top line performance of Philcement Corporation has also improved, especially as the company has strategically expanded its presence in the Mindanao market. The Mindanao market is a market that we view as underserved, and that's why we're expanding in a very significant manner in Mindanao, specifically for cement. But despite the prevailing industry headwinds, PHINMA CMG stands ready to benefit from its asset-light business model, which enables it to have greater flexibility and responsiveness. While the bottom line has been affected by the factors discussed, we anticipate that our optimization efforts and our strategic investments will begin to generate positive returns in the second half. Revenue for the first 6 months of 2025 was stable year-on-year at about PHP 6.9 billion, but the impact of the upfront cost that I mentioned did result in a loss of PHP 91 billion during the period, particularly given the weak pricing environment. Our highly experienced management team in Construction Materials is well positioned to capitalize on the Philippines' long-term infrastructure development needs. For instance, infrastructure spending per capita in the Philippines is only approximately half of the level seen in Vietnam, which indicates a significant market opportunity. We're also highly optimistic about the potential of Union Insulated Panels Corporation, which addresses the nation's food requirements and supports the development of energy-efficient cold storage and data center facilities. We believe we're only beginning to tap into the potential of that business. I'll now talk about PHINMA Education. So through the acquisition of St. Jude College, Dasmarinas, we now own and operate 10 tertiary education schools in the Philippines in addition to managing 2 schools in Indonesia. As of last year, PHINMA Education stood as the largest private tertiary education network in Southeast Asia. This success is attributable to our commitment to providing high-quality education at accessible prices of approximately PHP 15,000 per semester. Last year's results were fantastic, including 28 board topnotchers, strong board passing rates, more than 12,000 students graduated and a 77% employment rate. It is noteworthy that many of our students enter our system with the skills equivalent to those of fourth grader, highlighting the transformative impact of PHINMA Education when we see these results. This compelling value proposition attract increasing number of families to enroll their children in our schools. We're also now focused more on student retention and completion as semester on semester retention rates have improved to 89% this year compared to 85% in the previous year. As previously noted, we recently secured PHP 825 million from Kaizenvest Investment Vehicle, a Singapore-based private equity firm. Kaizenvest's initial investment in PHINMA Education led to a successful exit with more than twice their initial investment and the reentry alongside KKR serves as a strong endorsement of PHINMA Education's business and financial performance. PHINMA Education's revenue has grown in tandem with rising enrollment, resulting in a 3-year CAGR of 26%. For the first half of 2025, revenue reached PHP 2.7 billion, primarily driven by same school enrollment growth. PHINMA Education has also improved its capital efficiency, allocating equity funding to debt reduction, contributing to the improvement in net income attributable to PHINMA Corporation totaling PHP 305 million. This represents a 3-year CAGR of 98%, while our net income margin remains healthy at 21.36% for the first half and an EBITDA margin of 32.63% over the period. Moving on to Property and Hospitality. PHINMA Corporation recently strategically allocated an additional PHP 300 million into PHINMA Properties to support the development of Saludad, our first township project. You can see on the slide here where we intend to put up a Southwestern University, the first branch outside of Cebu as well as TRYP Bacolod. And we think that these are great anchor tenants that will drive development in that area. It's a high-growth market, and we further reinforced our commitment with these 2 investments. We view the township as being strategically located in what will be or what already is the emerging city center Bacolod, particularly as [indiscernible] becomes increasingly congested. Recently, we commenced construction on our mid-rise buildings called Maayo Terraces Saludad, and we expect to break ground on our TRYP hotel this quarter. Actually, we expect to do this next month. However, the market softness in Metro Manila has impacted the profitability of PHINMA Properties, contributing to a loss of PHP 300 million in the first half. Looking ahead, we do expect improved revenue recognition from Metrotowne Building 2 in Les Pinas and UniPlace at SWU in Cebu. However, in response to this oversupply situation in areas of Metro Manila, we have strategically pivoted our new developments to underserved areas such as Batangas, Cebu, Davao and Bacolod, but we do acknowledge that this pivot will take time to be reflected in our financial results. The hospitality sector also faces its ongoing challenges with occupancy rates declining due to reduced business travel, fewer tourists and fewer returning overseas workers. However, our flagship Metrotel Mall of Asia branch continues to perform well, validating PHINMA Corp's decision to expand its capacity by an additional 90 rooms. At the same time, increasing operating expenses are exerting pressure on profit margins, resulting in a slight loss for the first half of the year, while RevPAR has declined modestly year-on-year. Our reentry into socialized housing represents an exciting new business opportunity for PHINMA. Kara has been instrumental in developing this initiative. So I'll now turn over the presentation for her to discuss this unique approach.

Thanks, EJ. So as mentioned earlier, PHINMA Community Housing or PHINMA COHO is our newest venture. And we believe this really has a strong alignment to the group's vision to serve the underserved, especially since the housing backlog in this country is estimated to be at around 6.5 million and probably it's growing. And we also want to be able to replicate the success that we've had in PHINMA Education. So the housing backlog mentioned earlier has really been a critical problem, especially for the lower income sector. And that is a sector that our education arm has a lot of experience. In the last briefing, we did mention that PHINMA Corp is directly investing up to PHP 250 million in the PHINMA COHO, and that's to jump start the first 2 projects, which will be located in Davao and in Bacolod. Each of these projects will have at least 500 units. And taking the helm on this is Mr. Luis Oquinena, who is the Chairman of Gawad Kalinga. His experience together with the synergies that we can tap within the other business units, we feel will really help us bring this community housing that we envision. So for us, it's really going to be more than just putting up a structure. We will be putting amenities and features that would be meaningful to the residents, such as a day care center or spaces where they can upgrade their skills or set up community-based enterprises. So currently, we are still in the early stages. So hopefully, in the succeeding briefings, we'll be able to share with you more updates, especially once we are able to officially launch the Davao project later this year. So now I'll give the floor back to EJ.

Thank you, Kara. I think just in addition to what Kara was saying, our approach to community housing is a good example of our approach in general. One, we do identify the social need for community housing. The backlog is at 6.5 million homes and actually growing even if the government wants to build and construct 1 billion homes per year. But second is we have to be as close to the market as possible. And as a result, we have brought in leadership, not just Luis, but also the team that he's assembled that are actually spending a lot of time embedding themselves into these communities so we can properly identify their needs, thereby addressing them with our strategies. And I think that's an approach that we've taken in PHINMA Education. It's an approach that we've taken in construction materials and hospitality and property, where it's not just seeing the need. It's not just looking at the numbers, but it's knowing the communities and being as close to them as we can. So looking ahead at our outlook, while the first half did present notable challenges, we've been meeting them head on with strategic shifts and decisive action. Our long-term perspective does remain to be our guiding principle, supported by our conviction that we're fundamentally aligned with the fundamental or essential needs of the Philippines. Our strategic portfolio not only addresses these core needs, but it positions us as key contributors to national development. The unexpected challenges that we faced did impact the market, testing our agility, but we have responded by fine-tuning our strategies to navigate these challenges. And I think we'll start to see that in the second half. But these adjustments are already yielding tangible results, evidenced by promising indicators across key segments. I'm reminded by the statement of Tony Robbins, who said, stay committed to your decisions, but stay flexible in your approach, and that's what we're doing. We're committed to our vision, but we're agile in our execution. We're confident that the measures we've implemented will not only stabilize our performance, but will also lead to recovery for the full year and greater growth in succeeding periods. I started this presentation by talking about our expansion projects and showing them. We are optimistic. I think the results are a little bit behind what we expected. But we still think these are projects that are essential. They're strategically important, not just for PHINMA, but for the nation. And as a result, you can really see that our commitment to nation building remains to be our North Star. We remain steadfast in our goal to solve the societal issues while mutually and simultaneously creating value for our shareholders and stakeholders. So with that, again, thank you for attending this briefing. And I guess we'll open the floor for any questions that you might have.

[Operator Instructions] So to start off first with some of the questions that were sent ahead. So first off, given the recent investments made into the PHINMA Group and the different projects of our business units, when do we expect the numbers to improve?

Okay. It's a good question. I think a fair question given our first half results. We do expect, as I mentioned, the recovery to profitability in the second half. And this will largely be led by, first, PHINMA Education. We already know their enrollment for the second half, and we'll feel the full benefit to that. So as a result of PHINMA Education, the second half of our year is seasonally the strongest for PHINMA Corp. But we also see a recovery in our Construction Materials Group. So between those 2, they should lead a more modest recovery, but certainly into the profitable section.

We have another question here. On the acquisition of St. Jude College in Dasmarinas, how many is the additional contribution to the student count?

Another good question. So I mentioned earlier that we have seen strong enrollment growth in PHINMA Education year-on-year. The growth that we actually see in our education business is mostly the result of organic growth. When we acquire schools now, what we're really acquiring is the potential of that school. One of the things that made us attractive to Dasmarinas was its location in Cavite that can really allow us to bring up that enrollment over coming years. So that's a long way of saying, but it added a little bit less than 3,000 students to our network when we acquired it. But looking ahead at the future, our potential for growth in Dasmarinas and Cavite is much larger.

Thanks, EJ. We have a question here for our Construction Materials group. What led to the increases in the sales volume in the first half of this year versus first half of last year? And is it mainly from the pricing initiatives or the new products?

And let me also integrate a question that I got from our friend, Ian, who is asking if our insulated panels facility in Porac is on track? Yes, that is on track for 2026. We look to be opening it in the middle of the year. And the increase is really the result of new markets that we're developing. So as I mentioned in cement, we are further developing the Mindanao market, and that's an area that we're optimistic on. But also, yes, our new products, including insulated panels are starting to bear fruit. Insulated panels, in particular, has a lot of projects that they've sold and we'll start to recognize the revenue from that in the second half. We've also, at the Union Galvasteel level, brought in a new Chief Operating Officer, and he has helped to reorganize the team. and that's also bearing fruit in terms of our sales efforts. I think if we look at quarter-on-quarter, we saw better results from our Construction Materials Group in the second quarter versus the first quarter of this year. I think there was a comment from Anton to show our first half P&L.

[Operator Instructions]

I'd like to ask a question. What's the status of the cement business? I understand that I could be wrong, but if I remember an expansion is being done. And what's the status of the expansion and considering that there is a glut -- is that expansion getting adjusted or the expansion is going to proceed as planned?

Ian, thank you for the question. We actually see a market demand in Mindanao in particular. Well, one, as a whole, we see a market opportunity in the Philippines. As I mentioned earlier in our presentation, infrastructure spending per capita is about half that of Vietnam. And it seems like every presidential administration keeps talking about doing more infrastructure spending, and we want to play our part in that in a business that we know very well, which is the cement business. In particular, though, we are expanding in Mindanao. The largest terminal that we're doing is the Philcement Panabo terminal. This is a mirror image of our Mariveles Bataan terminal, and this is on track to be for commercial operations next year. We also did recently sign an agreement for the Tibungco terminal, which was previously operated by CEMEX now Concreat. And then we took over and bought, acquired last year, the Petra plant in the followup. So you can see those 3 projects in Mindanao in particular. And what we're doing, if you look at cement, a large part of it is also a logistics theme. So we're expanding our reach so that we can be more accessible to our customers and reduce the logistics costs, which will make us more competitive. So Petra, for example, in Zambuanga del Norte. That region of Mindanao was previously served largely with imports from Cebu. And that's why we think we can be more cost competitive. Our team has been able to operate that facility very well. In fact, last month, which was July, so it's not reflected yet in our first half results, they had record performance, and we're able to produce PHP 1 million. So we're very optimistic on the cement business in the long run. At the same time, though, you're right, it is a little bit saturated. Pricing pressures do remain. Price has been low for the past couple of years, and it's taken a little bit longer than we expected to recover. But again, the demand should be there.

Okay. So just a follow-up. The terminals, Panabo and Tibungco. Since these are terminals the cement come from which plants?

So yes, you're right. These are terminals. The raw materials come from various sources, Ian. And then we do finishing and manufacturing here in these different terminals.

I have a question on COHO and how long is the time line we're seeing?

In terms of COHO, we expect to break ground on the Davao project within the year. And then I think Bacolod would be in the first half of next year. These are the first 2. These are proof of concepts for us. And we're hoping that once we show that we're able to do this in a sustainable way, we can invite others to partner with us in scaling up this business. We are setting this up in a way that long term, it is of strategic importance to the PHINMA Group. That's why we view it as our fifth strategic business unit instead of placing it under PHINMA Properties, we think that the strategic importance merits its own SBU status. I think there's another question from Anton on the timetable for the Property and Construction Materials groups to start showing profits. The second half for us, Anton, for Construction Materials Group, we do see a recovery in both volume and pricing that should benefit CMG as well as the impact of the optimization efforts that we're taking into account. Now in terms of the Property segment, it might take a little bit longer. As I said, the Metro Manila market is saturated. We're still pivoting. It will take a little bit of time for those efforts to be reflected in our financial results, especially on a consolidated basis. But there's promising sales momentum in the areas that we're entering with our existing projects. So it will come down to execution in the long run. I just see a comment here about a face-to-face ASM next year. That will still have to be decided and approved upon by the PHINMA Corporation Board, but we will be looking at what venues are appropriate at the right time.

So we have another question here. Is PHINMA open for more short or long-term loans with the banks and how much and which kind of facilities and which subsidiaries?

Okay. That's a big question. We're open to both strategic partners that can share our vision that will enable us to achieve our ambitions for building the nation, certainly including not just limited equity investors, but including the loans with banks. I think we have to take our capital structure into account and make sure that we don't over leverage, especially given the risks inherent in the current macroeconomic environment. But to whoever the participant is, perhaps we can talk about this more directly. I know Kara has shown, our Investor Relations e-mail, please do reach out to us. I think across the group and across all of our subsidiaries, we look at this very closely as to how we want our funding mix for our projects. So that might be a discussion we can have deeper one-on-one.

We have another question. Can you share more updates related to the Microtel MOA expansion? How are the visitors' figure performing versus last year?

The Microtel Mall of Asia expansion, it's on track as well. In terms of our visitors figures, it is lower, and we've seen a slight reduction as well on RevPAR. We've tried to offset that by increasing our rates, but it only partially was able to capture that. I do invite you to visit both Microtel Mall of Asia and TRYP at Mall of Asia to get a better feel for those 2 projects. They're great hotels. Microtel Mall of Asia, I think, is our flagship Microtel and TRYP, of course, is our first. The food and the drinks are fantastic in both locations. And I say this ahead of a long weekend, we have very active promos for all of our hotels.

Any more questions?

I would just like to ask a follow-up question regarding to your answer. Can you share us color on why is the visitors lower compared to the same period last year? Is this more of the external demand is dwindling in that particular area? Or is it more of a competition issue within that area?

I think we're driven more by the external demand. We have heard and seen numbers that OFWs in particular, are not coming back as much as they previously did, and that was a large market for us. There's a little bit of apprehension, specifically from those based in the U.S. to leave the U.S. for fear that they might not be able to re-enter. And as a result, that has hampered the tourism. There has been increased competition in the Mall of Asia area, but that market segment impacts maybe the TRYP Hotel more than the Microtel Mall of Asia. I think another factor that's impacted TRYP has been the reclamation efforts. So our view of the bay, for example, is not as much of a bay as it was a couple of years ago, and there has been a reduction in long-staying guests.

We have another question from...

Sorry, just -- I hope that answered your question, John?

Final question, just a follow-up also. So for instant recovery, are you depending on the developments within the smart city that's being developed there? Like are you banking on it as a factor for the recovery of that...

It will certainly be a factor, but we're not relying only on that. I think there's another question from on how big the Saludad project could be for the group? And did we have a model in mind of comparable township and who's the target market? It's going to be very significant. When we look at the Saludad project, we're looking at revenues of more than PHP 14 billion over the life of the project, and it will take many, many years. So it's like increasing -- it's really like increasing a land bank for the property business. And when I talk about the revenues, I'm only talking at the PPG side, not even mentioning the impact on our education business, our hotel as well as COHO. This is just at the PPG level. It is a 21-hectare township situated next to the Rockwell there. In terms of the target market that we're hoping to attract, it's slightly below that. So if you can go back, Kara, to the drawing or the visuals, let me just try to paint a better picture here. If you can look over at the lower left, the Lekar estates Phase 1 and 2, these are lots that we're selling. These are intended to be towards the upper middle market in terms of lots only. Maayo Terraces Phases 1 and 2 are going to be our MRBs, and these are targeting more the mid-market. There's a lot of [ Balic ] provincia people that we're targeting. And when we look at the Bacolod market, it seems prime to also benefit from that new inflow of residents as well as increasing BPO segments. So that's what we're looking there. In terms of comparable townships, our team has worked on other townships for developers such as Rockwell and Ayala Land. This is next to the Rockwell actually in Bacolod. There is another comment on the [indiscernible] to say that there has been no announcements made at this point in terms of our directors. We are very happy with the directors we currently have elected. So I think with that, unless there's any other questions, thank you, everyone, for your time, and have a good long weekend.

Thank you for joining us. Let's just quickly our contact details. In case any of you want to reach out directly, feel free to send an e-mail. We'd be happy to arrange a one-on-one if you'd like or you want to send in advance some of the questions you weren't able to raise this afternoon, feel free to reach out. Thank you again. We hope you have a good afternoon and a good holiday tomorrow.

Thank you.

Thank you.