Playtech plc (PTEC) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Good morning or good afternoon, all, and welcome to the Playtech 2020 Full Year Results Call. My name is Adam, and I'll be the operator for this call. [Operator Instructions] I will now hand you over to Chris McGinnis to begin. So Chris, please go ahead.

Thank you, operator. Welcome to Playtech's 2020 final results presentation with our CEO, Mor Weizer; and our CFO, Andrew Smith. They'll give an update on the business today, followed by a Q&A session. [Operator Instructions] And with that, I'll hand over to our CEO, Mor Weizer.

Good morning, everyone, and thank you for joining today as we review Playtech's 2020 performance. Starting with Slide 3 and the highlights of the year. Andy will run through the numbers in a few minutes, but to summarize: Considering the effects of the pandemic, Playtech has responded extremely well and had a resilient financial performance with significant strategic and operational progress, which will serve us well for after the pandemic is behind us. We have made significant progress in the U.S. as we launched with our long-standing partners bet365 and Entain in New Jersey. We also received the license in Michigan. And we are pushing forward with the licensing process in further states as we look to continue increasing our investment into the U.S. market to capture the exciting opportunity. We have signed a strategic multiproduct and multistate agreement with Parx Casino, the leading casino and racetrack operator in Pennsylvania. We have also signed a strategic partnership with NOVOMATIC. I will talk more about both of these deals later. We continued to execute our strategy in Latin America by extending our reach into Guatemala, Costa Rica and Panama while continuing our significant progress with Caliente and more recently Wplay. Following the launch of our SaaS model in 2019, we have seen incredible demand for the product. We surpassed the target of 50 new brands and added over 100 new brands in 2020. Snaitech once again demonstrated its leadership in Italy and was the market leader across retail and online sports in 2020. What's more is that the pandemic has accelerated the transition to online for Snaitech, and its online EBITDA grew 92% in the period. We launched Sustainable Success, our ESG commitment, in order to ensure sustainability and safer gambling are central to everything we do. We continued the simplification of the group in order to unlock the value in core B2B and B2C. We have completed the disposal of the casual gaming business, and our talks regarding the potential sale of Finalto are ongoing. Finally, we were extremely delighted to announce last week that Brian Mattingley will be joining us as Chairman and taking over from June 1 this year. It is clear that COVID-19 made 2020 a challenging period for all companies alike, including Playtech, but considering the challenges we faced, I'm even more proud to stand up here and tell you about these highlights in 2020. Turning to Slide 4. 2020 was inevitably defined by the global pandemic, and this set of results is a product of the dedication and professionalism of our employees and people during this period. My first priority throughout this time has always been and will remain the safety of our people and the protection of their livelihoods, which I always felt and strongly believe will allow us to protect the Playtech business. Notwithstanding, we have taken immediate steps, firstly, to preserve cash by cutting the costs, including marketing, traveling, office costs, CapEx investments and other costs; and secondly, to identify revenue opportunities with new and existing customers in existing and new territories. Every cost and investment have been debated long before approved, with the same goal in mind to preserve cash to protect Playtech and its employees. Considering the absolutely unprecedented business environment we experienced in 2020, I'm pleased with the full year results the group produced. These results demonstrate the outstanding response of our employees in the face of the pandemic, the effectiveness and efficiency of our business continuity plans, the flexibility and scale of our technology and the continued demand for our software and services. Despite the circumstances, not only our productivity levels were maintained throughout, but in 2020, we executed more projects in the year than ever before. In order to help our licensees to meet the increased player protection challenges during the pandemic, we offered our safer gambling engagement tools for free during the crisis. We made a conscious decision to increase our donations to COVID-19 related charities as well as safer gambling initiatives as part of our commitments to the communities and societies we are part of. We also announced this morning the launch of a GBP 3 million COVID-19 fund which aims to assist nonprofit and social enterprise organizations delivering mental health and well-being services to Playtech's end markets. The effectiveness of our COVID-19 response in H1 gave us confidence that we could weather the effects of any second wave in H2 and beyond. And the way that Playtech's people have done it and keep doing it to this day makes me very proud to be the CEO of this company. I want to thank each and every one of our employees for that. Finally, before I move on to the results, I want to say that Playtech, like many other companies, very sadly, lost several people during these difficult times; and our thoughts remain with their families. They will always remain in our thoughts and will always remain part of the Playtech family. With that, I will now hand over to Andy to take you through the financial performance in 2020.

Thank you, Mor. I will start with Slide 6 and the financial highlights. Overall, we had a resilient performance in 2020 despite the challenges that came with the pandemic. EBITDA for the year was EUR 310 million, driven by a strong performance from Finalto in H1 and core B2B and Snaitech in H2. It's worth noting that EUR 310 million is after the repayment of a small amount of furlough monies in the U.K. and other countries. Playtech acted quickly as the spread of the virus became apparent by thoroughly evaluating all means of preserving cash. As precautionary measures, we also drew down majority of our revolving credit facility, and while we remained well within our existing debt covenants, we renegotiated our near-term covenants. Due to these actions, together with the strength of our operational performance, our balance sheet remains very strong. Finally, in 2020, we finalized the migration of our tax residency to the U.K. Now on Slide 7, we will look at the EBITDA performance by month during 2020. As discussed at the interim results, the group had a great start to the year with adjusted EBITDA of over EUR 80 million in January and February driven by strong performances from Snai, Live, sports and Finalto. The pandemic began to impact parts of the group in late February and into March, and the contribution of our gambling businesses declined, whilst Finalto had very strong results, particularly in March and April. Finalto's results normalized in May and June, while the most affected parts of our gambling businesses began to recover in June. The retail parts of our business were largely reopened from the start of H2. And the gambling business had a very strong period from July through to October driven by pent-up demand, a high concentration of sporting events and continued strength in online. Parts of our business were once again impacted by lockdowns in various markets throughout November and December, although unlike the period in H1, sporting events continued largely unaffected throughout H2, which led to better results from our core businesses in November and December compared to the most affected months in H1. As you can see from the slide, Finalto had a modest contribution to group performance throughout most of H2 after a strong H1. Turning now to Slide 8, we will explore the performance of B2B Gambling in more detail. In the U.K., the B2B Gambling business fell 25%, driven by the drop in Sports revenues which was mainly due to retail closures at various points of the year; as well as the cancellation of sports events, particularly in H1. Regulated markets outside of the U.K. grew by 10% at constant currency in the period despite our Sports business being impacted by retail closures, particularly in Greece. Excluding retail and Sports, these regulated markets' growth was a very strong 68%. The continued strong performance in other regulated markets means that this part of the business was a larger contributor than our U.K. B2B business for the year. We have continued to grow the unregulated markets outside of Asia, as revenue grew 26% in the period. It's worth noting that on this slide we have broken our Asia business into two: the business generated from international customers, mostly based in Europe that serve the Asian markets; and our business in Asia that is through our Asian-based operators and distributors. We have made this split, as the drivers of these parts of the business are very different, with Asian revenues from non-Asian customers significantly more stable. Turning now to Slide 9, I will look at the B2B Gambling costs in 2020. In discussing the 2020 B2B costs, I will look at both reported adjusted numbers as well as providing commentary around the underlying story behind our costs. You can see from the table that our B2B costs increased in 2020. At the start of the year, we had aggressive investment plans to support the expense to support revenue growth in the year and to capture the opportunity in markets such as the U.S. and Lat Am. When the pandemic hit, our revenues [ in both those ] were impacted, with the investments already having been made and with Playtech taking the decision to carry over the investment plans in order to further strengthen our market position. This investment is reflected in the first 3 cost lines; with the fourth line, sales and marketing, seeing a 22% cut. What the reported numbers don't show is that on an underlying like-for-like basis, B2B costs fell in the year, which reflects the intense focus we have put on spending money in a targeted way. The cost base in 2020 includes over EUR 30 million invested in Lat Am, the U.S. and Live, our strategic growth areas; as well as in targeted marketing campaigns [ we have inside certain licensees ]. We also had EUR 10 million of costs relating to tax advisory, COVID-related provisions and donations relating to COVID and safer gambling. I haven't materially changed the way we present B2B Gambling costs in my time as CFO, as I believe in consistency where possible, but this is something I intend to revisit over the coming months to reflect the evolution of our B2B business. Turning to Slide 10. The B2C segment is comprised of Snaitech; the HappyBet business in Germany and Austria; and white label, which includes Sun Bingo. I will look at Snaitech in detail on the following slide. Looking first at HappyBet. The business generated an EBITDA loss of EUR 11.3 million in the period compared to a loss of EUR 11.9 million in 2019. Improvements in the business have been expected to deliver an improved performance in 2020. However, the business is retail weighted and was impacted in the period by retail closures in Germany and Austria as well as the cancellation of sporting events. We continue to believe that the assets of this business remain highly attractive. As mentioned previously at the interims, the Snaitech team has now taken control of managing this business. Looking at the white label line. The Sun Bingo contract represents the majority of both revenue and EBITDA. The remainder of white label comprise a number of other brands, which would be significantly reduced as part of a housekeeping exercise where certain brands will be consolidated or ceased operating. Turning now to Slide 11, we will look at the performance of Snaitech. Total Snaitech revenue decreased by 37%, as the strong growth of 58% in online was not enough to offset the impacts of retail closures and the expected drop in machines driven by regulation and increased taxation. It's worth flagging that, aside from the COVID-related headwinds, Snai started 2020 facing EUR 16 million of headwinds from changes in regulation and tax. Adjusted EBITDA was EUR 132 million, a 19% decrease, which was materially better than the drop in revenue due to strong cost control and the increased contribution from the higher-margin online business. The impact to EBITDA of the drop in revenue was also limited, as Snaitech's franchise business model means that most of its costs are variable in nature, with a low fixed-cost base. Due to the variable nature of the business, mitigating actions taken and the strength of online, Snaitech was able to remain broadly breakeven on an EBITDA basis throughout April and May, the months most impacted by the retail closures and cancellation of sporting events. In November and December, when retail locations were forced closed again in Italy, albeit with sports events continuing, Snaitech remained comfortably positive on an EBITDA basis. Overall, Snaitech's online business had a fantastic 2020 with revenue growth of 58% and EBITDA growth of over 90%. Turning to Slide 12. Finalto had a very strong performance overall in 2020, driven by an exceptional H1, as it benefited from prevailing market conditions that led to high volatility and trading volumes throughout much of the period. Market conditions began to normalize towards the end of H1, and this continued throughout H2. As a result, the business had a modest performance in H2. This led to 2020 net revenue growing 79%, with adjusted EBITDA of $62 million. Turning now to Slide 13, we will look at our balance sheet. As mentioned at the interims, we drew down the majority of our revolving credit facility and renegotiated our covenants for the 31st December 2020 and 30th of June 2021 tests as precautionary measures. Whilst there is great uncertainty on the outcome of the pandemic, the intention is for the [ remaining ] revolving credit facility to be repaid. As announced in March, we suspended shareholder distributions as a result of the impacts of the pandemic and in order to preserve cash flows. These measures preserved EUR 65 million in cash. And we continue to review potential shareholder distributions taking into account the [ focus of the ] business, upcoming cash flows as well as the overall economic trends, including the impacts from the pandemic. We remain committed to resuming shareholder returns when appropriate and prudent in the future. Given the resilience of the business and cash preservation measures taken in the period, our net debt-to-EBITDA ratio is now 1.7x compared to 1.6x at the end of 2019. Playtech has no imminent refinancing requirements, with our bonds maturing October '23 and March '26. Slide 14 shows the major movements in cash flows in the period. As you can see, we ended the year with a higher cash balance than the start to 2020. This was driven by strong cash from operations despite the pandemic, as well as the cash received from the Snaitech land sale. These inflows were offset by investments and contingent consideration payments of EUR 82 million, CapEx and cap dev costs of EUR 119 million, the share buyback of EUR 10 million and financing costs of EUR 64 million. It should be noted that the year-end cash balance includes benefits from the timing of the PREU tax payable in Italy of approximately EUR 89 million, which we would expect to reverse in H1 '21. Turning now to Slide 15. As we have stated previously, the gross cash number isn't a relevant number, as it includes cash held on behalf of customers and progressive jackpots, meaning we -- it does not belong to Playtech and is not ours to spend. The development starting point, therefore, is what we disclose as adjusted gross cash. This now stands at EUR 651 million, which can be found in the third row of the table. Excluding the drawn-down RCF, this figure will be EUR 342 million compared to EUR 272 million at the end of 2019. Finally, on Slide 16 we look at the outlook. 2021 has started well for Playtech in the context of the ongoing lockdowns in many of our markets. We expect online to continue to perform strongly, but we are cautious about the outlook for retail recovery given the ongoing uncertainty. Our balance sheet remains strong, allowing for selective high-return investments such as in the U.S. And we are equipped to emerge strongly from the COVID-19 period. With that, I will now hand back to Mor to update you on our strategic priorities.

Thank you, Andy. On Slide 18, I will quickly update you on our 2020 priorities before looking forward. We have been delivering on our strategy in truly challenging times. To be very clear about it: The U.S. is our top priority. As I mentioned earlier, we started gaining momentum in the U.S. with existing and new customers, new partnerships and more states, but this is just the beginning. We signed 3 new structured agreements in Latin America. We doubled our target of 50 new brands, adding over 100 new brands to our SaaS offering in 2020, and this revenue stream has tripled in the year. Against the pandemic headwinds, Snaitech not only improved its position, but we shifted our focus to online and Snai's online business saw EBITDA growth of 92%. We launched Playtech Protect as we continued our progress in safer gambling. Finally, we continue the simplification of the group in order to unlock the value in core B2B and B2C. So despite the impacts of the pandemic, we delivered on all of our 2020 strategic priorities. I said it already and I will reiterate that this comes down to the amazing dedication of our people, which makes me very, very proud. Over the next few slides, I will discuss the exciting opportunities for Playtech in the U.S. and then in Latin America. Our technology, flexibility and scale means we can operate diverse business models to capture the exciting opportunities presented in both of these markets. First, looking at the U.S., the market presents a huge opportunity in the coming years. Market-sizing estimates from Jefferies indicate that, by 2025, it is expected to be more than $24 billion GGR market. This is driven by sports betting, with 23 states now either already offering sports betting or having passed legislation to allow it in the near future. iGaming is also gaining momentum with additional states looking at regulating, and we remain confident that this is just a matter of when. Turning to Slide 20. As I've said before, we are taking a state-by-state approach to the U.S. market. We launched in New Jersey, received the license in Michigan. And we are pushing ahead with the licensing process in further states. We have a strong pipeline of interest for our products in multiple states, and we are building our U.S. presence based on where we see the most demand. I will tell you more about this in a few minutes. We are focusing on traditional B2B deals, similar to how we built our leading presence in the U.K. many years ago. We are also in talks on select structured agreements in the U.S., allowing the success in other markets across the Americas. We are also speaking to many potential strategic partners in order to extend the distribution of Playtech products and technology. Looking now at Slide 21. When looking at capturing the opportunities in the U.S. market, Playtech has unrivaled products and technology and a completely unique turnkey offering that allows us to extend our reach to B2C services; and accordingly, Playtech is very well placed. We have a comprehensive sports products covering online and retail which is considered best of breed. We have some of the world's best online casino slots games and one of the best live casino products. And most importantly, our proprietary IMS platform means Playtech is the only provider in the market that has a solution covering online and retail sports, online slots and live casino, all integrated into the industry's leading technology platform. Looking at Slide 22. I mentioned back in September that we were working on some key strategic deals. The first one we announced a few weeks ago is with the Greenwood companies that own and operate the Parx Casino, the leading casino and racetrack operator in Pennsylvania. We have signed very exciting multiproduct, multistate agreements which will see us partner with the Greenwood companies in Michigan, Indiana, New Jersey and Pennsylvania, starting with the launch in Michigan. This is a huge milestone for Playtech in the U.S.; and highlights the demand for superior offerings, particularly our industry-leading IMS platform and player account management. We are excited to support Parx in achieving their growth plans going forward, and I can't wait to tell you more about how we are progressing with them in the coming months. Moving to Slide 23, I want to demonstrate what I mean when I said we are accelerating our presence in the U.S. As well as the Parx Casino deal and the launches with bet365 and Entain, we have just announced a strategic partnership with NOVOMATIC to deliver our SSBT retail sports solution through NOVOMATIC's ActionBook sports wagering kiosks, which are already active in 11 states. Together with NOVOMATIC, we will market our mobile sportsbook and player account management technology to new prospective customers. We have license applications in progress in further states and are planning further applications in the months ahead. I believe that, by the end of 2021, we will be in additional states with a mix of iGaming, sports and IMS. We are always looking to extend our reach and working on our pipeline of potential structured agreements let me tell you once more this is just the beginning. While some conversations take some time given their strategic nature, we are working very hard to push in the U.S. market. And I'm very excited about Playtech's ability to capture the opportunity in the coming years. Now turning to Slide 24. In Latin America, our focus is on structured agreements. In these agreements, Playtech generates its traditional revenue-share royalties along with a share of profits in the operation. We also typically receive an option to convert the share of profits to a significant noncontrolling equity stake in the business. Caliente is continuing its excellent growth with continuing momentum and it has become our biggest customer in 2020, which is quite amazing only a few years after launch. In 2020, we were more than 50% ahead of budget despite the operation being driven by Sports. After the success of Caliente, we signed a new structured agreement with Wplay in 2019, and we have completed the successful migration in 2020 and they are live on Playtech's software. Since migration, Wplay continued with its very positive momentum. And we believe that it presents an important and significant contributor to our revenues going forward. As I told you back in September, we signed new structured agreements with Tenlot in Guatemala and with Red Cross in Costa Rica. The deals bring exclusivity in the respective markets, as we will be operating under the only license available in each. Now we will focus on executing these opportunities to drive growth in the region. In H2, we signed a new structured agreement in Panama where we have the first-to-market advantage. And we have also received 1 of only 7 licenses to operate in the province of Buenos Aires in Argentina. We continue to build on our strong pipeline of opportunities in the region, including in Peru, Argentina and Brazil. Brazil in particular presents a very significant opportunity with its huge population of over 200 million people and the importance of football. We believe that, with our existing agreements in Latin America and our pipeline of opportunities, we have a EUR 100 million medium-term revenue opportunity in the region, which is approximately double the level generated in 2020. Turning to Slide 25 and Snaitech. As Andy discussed earlier, the Snaitech business was severely impacted by the pandemic, driven by a number of lockdowns throughout the year. However, throughout 2020, we took decisive actions to focus on the online part of Snaitech in order to capitalize on the strengths of the Snai brand and reposition the business in order to cement its online presence and leadership in Italy. These actions helped Snaitech deliver 58% growth in online revenue, which helped drive 92% growth in online EBITDA. This is during a period when the advertising ban that was imposed in 2019 was fully in effect. When we bought this business in 2018, the online revenues made up less than 10% of the business. This was 12% in 2019 and now has reached 30% in 2020. I believe this business can be 45% online in the medium term, and we see potential for further significant margin expansions and higher levels of post-COVID-19 EBITDA. Looking forward, I'm more confident than ever that this business will provide significant growth for Playtech in the years to come. Turning to Slide 26, I will discuss our business in Asia. Due to the government restrictions in response to the pandemic, our business experienced disruptions as the employees of our licensees could not travel back to the Philippines and they could not work remotely due to the limited Internet infrastructure. Many sectors, not just ours, have also been impacted by restrictions introduced on payment processes -- processing in the region. Although Asia is a smaller part of the group, it remains a valuable part given its high margins and strong cash generation. The key for us in this region is stability, and for large parts of 2020, it was stable and is now more diversified geographically. The diversity of local Asian customers versus non-Asian customers is also improving. We have changed our operating model in Asia and now have further extended our distribution network in the region to give us more operational flexibility going forward. These changes to distribution should help to stabilize this business and potentially lead it to growth again in the future. Turning to Slide 27. As the market-leading technology provider in the gambling industry, our customers look to us to [ pioneer ] technology which ensures that players experience gambling entertainment in a safe manner. Consumer protection is absolutely critical in this industry, and we want to remain at the forefront of its development. As I mentioned back in September, in 2020, we launched Sustainable Success, our ESG commitment, which aims to consolidate our position as a global leader in safer products, data analytics and player engagement solutions; and commits to grow our business in a way that benefits our people, our communities, the environment and the industry as a whole. As part of this strategy, Playtech will invest GBP 5 million in 5 key areas with charity and social enterprise partners that provide research, programs and support to promote healthy online living. We are contributing expertise, research and financial support in 5 areas, including preventative education and research, into digital solutions and tools. Playtech recognizes that we have a duty to extend our expertise, experience and technology to help build a safe and sustainable industry for the benefit of all stakeholders. Turning to Slide 28 and the actions we are taking to simplify the group. Andy talked earlier about the exceptional contribution of Finalto in 2020, in particular in the first half of the year. Despite the strong results, this business remains noncore and has been classified as a discontinued operation. Talks are ongoing regarding the sale of this business as we continue to execute on our simplification strategy, which will allow us to unlock value in our core gambling businesses. The next asset I will discuss is HappyBet, the retail and online B2C sports betting business in Germany and Austria. This is a gambling business and fits more naturally within Playtech. We continue to believe this is a highly strategic asset given its retail presence and license in Germany and given the regulation of this market later this year. The HappyBet business is now under the control of the excellent Snaitech management team, and I'm excited about its future prospects. This time last year, we announced that our Casual and Social Gaming business was classified as a discontinued operation, and we had initiated a sale process for the business. As announced more recently, we have now sold all of our Casual and Social Gaming assets. Looking at Slide 29. COVID-19 has accelerated the shift to online while also increasing the demands of digital functionality. Our strategic focus over the last 20 years on developing digital-first products, intelligent data-driven services and channel-agnostic technology has positioned us ideally to benefit from the impact COVID-19 is having on the industry. We are accelerating many of our existing plans in order to capture the opportunities that have been created. We are ideally placed to capture the U.S. opportunity. We also have a EUR 100 million medium-term opportunity from structured agreements in Latin America, as I said earlier. And finally, I believe we have a EUR 15 million to EUR 20 million medium-term opportunity from our SaaS offerings. Finally turning to Slide 30 and our near-term deliverables in 2021. The U.S. remains the top priority for us. And we will push hard to significantly accelerate our presence by pushing ahead with license applications in further states, by signing further deals and by leveraging our competitive offering and platform technology to keep increasing our pipeline of opportunities. Most importantly, we will focus on hitting the milestones in our existing agreements with Parx Casino and others which I spoke about earlier. Our focus in Latin America will be to continue executing on our structured agreements to ensure we can drive growth in the coming years while also extending our reach into other countries on a structured agreement basis. Thirdly, we will push again to sign another 50 brands in 2021. I want to stand here in a year's time and tell you that Playtech has added over 200 new brands to our SaaS offerings since we launched it in 2019. For Snaitech, the transition to online is accelerating. And we are fully confident in Fabio in his excellent management team and their plans to continue driving online growth. We will continue to execute on our sustainability objectives and targets as part of our Sustainable Success commitment. We will continue to progress on the simplification of the group and hope to have an update for you on the sale of Finalto. We are in a position to emerge strongly from the pandemic. And as we all hope to put behind us a period of uncertainty in the world, I am more confident than ever in Playtech's exciting future at the forefront of our industry. Thank you very much. Andy and I will now take any questions you may have.

[Operator Instructions]

Thanks, operator. Please, can you take the first question from Richard Stuber?

Three, if I may. The first one is on U.S. Could you -- I know you've really just started sort of ramping up last year, but is there any indication of, say, the monthly revenue run rate in, say, for December; what it could get to in FY '21? And given this is going to be an important segment for you, whether you consider separating the U.S. revenue and EBITDA as a separate segment. The second question is on the Finalto disposal. I was wondering what you have -- any plans for that money coming in. Will it be returned to shareholders, repay the RCF? Or will you sort of prioritize investment in, say, the U.S.? And the third question is on safer gambling. You said you've given that software available for free to your licensees. Obviously, you're investing in it. Will you start charging for it this year? And how much could that add to your top line?

Okay. Shall -- I'll take the first two. I think -- Richard, I think it's a bit too early to start [ speculating on the ] U.S. or giving revenue numbers at this stage. What I would say is that they're not huge or material at the moment, but clearly we would expect them to ramp up over the coming years, let's say, exponentially. And I think, as part of that, we will be slightly loss making, I would expect, in the U.S. this year due to the investment that we're going to make which I think will be approaching around 20 million. So I think we -- you can work on the basis that the revenues are going to be sort of a little bit less than the costs, but frankly, I think it's very early days, Rich. I don't think there's anything really in both revenues or the costs to get too excited about at the moment. I think it's more -- what you should be focused on is more of the plans and the things that more we're talking about. In terms of Finalto, look, we -- even if we announced a deal now, it isn't likely to complete until probably about 6 months later due to things like maybe the regulatory approvals that you would need [ for completion path of ]. So on the basis, let's say, [ we've got the monies in, in ] maybe, say, September, October time -- and hopefully, we'll have a lot more visibility on where we are with the pandemic. And actually, given [ the progress with such a ] healthy balance sheet, we can obviously look at both shareholder distributions and other investments that we would like to make. I mean the only other thing I would add, Rich, is that clearly [ I've butchered half an hour ] on the Snai license renewals that will be coming potentially late '22, maybe even '23, but clearly, in getting the capital structure right, as at now or as at when those monies come in, I have got to be careful or be mindful of that outflow of cash within a year to 18 months.

Yes. Richard, on safer gambling tools, from the outset, I think I mentioned this before, when we bought the business, it was serving certain competitors of Playtech. And we always decided, again given the fact that Playtech need to play a key role in the regulatory development of the industry, which is an ever-developing and evolving theme, Playtech should take a less-commercial view or an almost a noncommercial view. We have seen a strong demand for our safer gambling tools throughout the pandemic. We have seen a lot of interest -- by the way, a lot of interest from companies that are now in the process of establishing themselves in the U.S. and North America, but for the time being, we will not -- we will continue not charging for it until the pandemic is behind us. And we feel very comfortable with that. Anyway, like I said, it's minimal. We don't see this is a vertical that we should refer to on the basis of the -- of its financial metrics or, in other words, the revenues or profitability. I believe that it's a necessary complementary part to our business as part of the journey the whole industry is going through. And therefore, I will say, for the time being, it's provided for free to operators. And we made a conscious decision that we will never take a commercial view when entering into agreements. And we -- and actually, what we charge, which should never be the hurdle between operating, I mean, in the -- when operating -- making a choice or when they choose whether to work with us or not.

Thanks, Mor. Operator, please, can you take the next question from James Wheatcroft at Jefferies?

James Wheatcroft here. 2 questions from me, 1 for each of you, I think. Mor, just thinking about U.S. and just drilling down on the NOVOMATIC opportunity. Perhaps you can just give a feel [ for just the size of the opportunities if then SSBTs are ] widely rolled out in the U.S. [ Just like ] give us your thoughts in terms of NOVOMATIC's [ position with that ] and what they're thinking about it in terms of that growth opportunity. And then [ finally ], just in terms of [ Snaitech, it ] obviously enjoyed a very strong performance in 2020, especially in online. I'm just thinking about that sort of mix shift from retail to sort of online in the context of margins, Andy, and what we should be thinking going forward [ on how that's structured ].

So on the first question. Obviously, SSBTs will play a key role in the coming quarters, not necessarily in the medium to longer term because I think that in the medium, longer term it will be the mobile sports betting. In essence, it will be online but mobile sports betting in particular. I believe that the SSBT and the quality of our SSBT is unparalleled, and I think that there is a real opportunity. Obviously, in the U.S. it's all about distribution. This is partly why companies like William Hill partnered with Caesars, why companies like Entain partnered with MGM. And there are many other such partnerships in the U.S. because it's all about presence in different states and distribution capabilities. I believe that the NOVOMATIC agreement is a strategic agreement not least because they operate a somewhat different business in kiosks, which is an exciting opportunity by itself. The partnership with NOVOMATIC will allow us not only to penetrate a lot of states together with NOVOMATIC, but when mobile sports betting will be approved, then obviously there is very significant opportunities for both of our companies. If you think about the U.S. market, it's still driven mainly by retail sports betting, not necessarily in terms of the revenues generated because obviously, those states that allow the regulated mobile sports betting, you'll see a significant uplift compared to retail. However, if you think about the number of states regulating retail sports betting to start with and then considering mobile sports betting, I think that there are more states doing so, but it's only a matter of time. I think that, if you think about all the estimates that are out there, they all envision a U.S. market that is driven by mobile sports betting alongside retail sports betting and iGaming. And for us now it's about penetrating the U.S. It's not just about making the next dollar to the EBITDA line. It's about market share. It's about distribution. It's about our presence in the U.S., and this is what we are focused on.

Thanks, Mor. Turning to the second one. Thanks for that question, James. [indiscernible] dynamics of this because obviously we all know [indiscernible] that online comes with much lower costs and much lower assets needed to run that side of the business, but I think there's an extra point that is worth to emphasize on Snai. With the franchise model, for every EUR 1 that we get in retail, we have to pay out pretty much all of that to our franchisees. So if you take that EUR 1, and let's say just as a rule of thumb we share with some 50-50 with our licensees, before you've even looked at other retail costs, immediately you're losing about half of that EUR 1. So you're down to EUR 0.50. With online, however, for every EUR 1 that you get, on the first EUR 0.50 of that, actually because it's direct revenues, there's no pay-away to anyone. So of that first EUR 0.50, you keep the whole EUR 0.50. On the remaining EUR 0.50, you do have some pay-aways to franchisees that have introduced customers to online. There's a few of the costs as well, but broadly speaking, that's for every EUR 1 that you take online, you ended up with [ not far off ] EUR 0.80. Now that -- obviously then clearly there are other costs on top of that. And clearly there's a bit of rounding there, but it's just to show the difference because, as a sort of [ bare ] rule of thumb, if you're moving from the EUR 50 -- EUR 0.50 in EUR 1 to the EUR 0.80, that's a hell of a big difference to the margin.

Operator, please, can you take the next question from Gavin Kelleher at Goodbody, please?

Mor, Andy, a few from me, please. Just on Snaitech, Mor, you gave a medium-term target that 45% of revenues would come from online. Obviously, you were around the 30% mark last year, but with retail recovery likely over the next few years, that's a pretty bullish forecast for online. Can you just give us a bit of an insight into how sticky the players that you've acquired during H2 are turning out to be in Italy? If you can give us any sort of kind of insight on that, that would be great. And if I can ask my [ 2 other ] questions when you're finished with that one.

Yes. So Gavin, let me just clarify that I said 45% online, not necessarily revenues. More it will likely be EBITDA, but I think that, to reiterate, because of the model of Snaitech -- and it goes back to the question Andy just answered. Because of the franchisees EBITDA and the higher margin in online, I think that it's best to look at the EBITDA line. And I think that and I believe that it will be 45% of EBITDA. Obviously, this is a huge -- this is -- this will be a huge achievement for us. What we saw -- and this is actually why I'm so excited. If you think about when we bought Snai, we always said that 1 of the main reasons or 1 of the 2 main reasons we focused on Italy was the coming -- or 3 reasons: one, the coming regulations in the U.K. that will put the market under pressure; secondly, the fact that Italy is the largest gambling market across Europe; and third but not -- last but not least, Snai -- or Italy obviously was not -- was hardly penetrated from an online perspective. Or the penetration of online was very, very limited. And what I was trying to articulate earlier is obviously the pandemic. And this is, by the way, a theme that we see not only in gambling. We see that elsewhere then in retail commerce and online commerce and -- companies like Amazon, Walmart and others doing very, very well online. I believe that the pandemic acted as a catalyst for a natural development of any market moving from retail to online. I think that what we saw between the different lockdowns is that the levels -- while retail comes back and people go back to retail, the level of revenues generated online remain broadly the same. And we expect it to remain broadly the same going forward in a COVID-free world, and this is why we are -- so exciting. So we believe that over the course of the coming years we will see a significant improvement in Snai's -- in the Snaitech business, which will -- I believe, reflects the quality of this business and the significant opportunity that we have in Italy not least because of the characteristics of the 2 verticals that they have, retail and online; and the nature of the -- and characteristics of these 2 verticals, with online obviously being at a higher margin and very, very lucrative.

Perfect. Just maybe one for Andy, just on the unregulated ex Asia, pretty decent growth in that for the year. I may have missed this, but is there any particular markets you'd call out at Slide 8 on the who are -- any particular markets driving that unregulated growth ex Asia?

Yes. The 2 main ones, they are Canada and Germany. And obviously some of our peers, say Germany, is regulated rather than unregulated. So yes, Germany. It's Germany and Canada and then a long tail after that.

Perfect. And just one final question on Asia, Andy, this new breakout of European customers. You said that that's more stable revenue versus the distributor or local customer revenue you get. I know you've given it for FY '19 there as well, but let's say over a 5-year period. How has that line trended, if you like? So had it been broadly around the level that it's been at in '19 and '20?

Are you taking that, Mor, or do you want me to?

Yes, yes, I can take that. Obviously with the market becoming, by far, more competitive, right, between the different -- remember that some of these operators are well-recognized names in different markets, whether it is Japan, China and elsewhere, being operated from Gibraltar, Malta and some other parts of Europe. Obviously their business model is somewhat different. And accordingly, if you look back at the last 5 years, most of the drop that we saw that was driven by increased competition was -- happened with the Asian-based customers that target Asian markets, the reason being is that those operating from Europe were -- already had a lot of the other content providers that started penetrating the Asian market. So in essence, if you look back 5 years ago, Playtech 5, 6, 7 years ago, Playtech was 1 of 5 content providers in the market having worked with a number of Asian-based, Asian-focused customers, but alongside that, it always had some major companies in the U.K. operating from Europe, operating into Asia. And as you know, there are some big names out there and some people basically refer to them. Some even put it in their announcements, like Jackpotjoy and others, and they refer specifically to Asia. With those customers, we always have the same level of competition, and they always have other content providers. One of the reasons we decided to break it down. So people will better understand the quality of the business of Playtech; that Asia currently is relatively smaller, by far smaller than what it used to be, but also that it's partly driven -- "20 and a bit" percent is driven by non-Asian customers targeting Asian markets that already have all the content providers alongside Playtech. And this was always the case and have been stable. And these relationships are part of an overall very big, comprehensive relationships with those non-Asian customers. And I think that it is important to indicate that because it reflects on the business and the quality of Playtech.

And just to add to that, Gav, but I think the reason we split it out is because it is currently very stable. And also in terms of -- I think, when [ we looked at valuations in some of the parts ], I think the 10 million or so that we get from the non-Asian customer Asian revenues should be lumped in with the U.K. revenues, et cetera because it isn't like -- it is simply, let's say, higher-quality revenues.

Yes, Gavin, if I may add another just one small comment, one short comment, I will say that obviously it was the -- it was a matter of competition. It is a matter of the fact that the Asian part within the overall relationship that we have with non-Asian customers is part of a very comprehensive contract and a long-term relationship. And if I think about it, I think the vast majority, if not all, of those operators have a license from the U.K. -- from -- in the U.S., which also reiterates the fact that, if you look at it from a regulatory perspective, people should be less concerned, leading to the same conclusion that this business is by far more diversified. Some parts of it are already and have been always very competitive, stable compared to the other parts of the business, have -- from a regulatory perspective, they all hold a license in the U.S., which means something. And therefore, the quality of this part of the business should be looked at somewhat differently to the way some people refer to the [ non- or Asian-based ] customers targeting Asian markets.

Operator, please, can you take the next question from Kiranjot Grewal, please?

A couple of questions from me. On Italy, could we go back to what did you see last year, when we were moving between lockdown and lockdown season, in terms of customer stickiness? And then also, Slide 21 was incredibly helpful in terms of your product offering. I believe, so far in the U.S., licenses have been awarded mainly around the casino product. How much of the rest of the product you've outlined on Slide 21 should we expect to be introduced in the U.S. this year? And then if you have any comments on the current expectations. There's quite a few moving parts to '21 with lockdowns likely to continue in Q2 as you flagged, but we're also lapping for some sports comps, particularly in H1. So any comments on that?

Do you want -- I'll take the last one now, [ sure ], Mor; and you do the first two.

Okay, okay. Sorry. Go ahead.

In terms of -- and in terms of the expectations in year, I think the consensus is around the sort of [ 315 ] level with around 30-ish of that being Finalto. I think what you -- what one have got to remember is that, as it -- Finalto is going to be a headwind to the numbers this year both because it made around double what we normally expected to, around 60 million rather than 30 million. And therefore, that -- we're losing that. And also we would hope to be selling the whole lot. So I think, if you say that the starting point ex Finalto is around the [ 290 ], I think -- if you look at the sort of the pushes and pulls on that, I think Asia is going to be a bit lower this year just because the run rate is lower than it was at the start of 2019, albeit we may see growth in Asia potentially. But on the current run rate, it would be a little bit lower. Snai, I would hope that there's less of lockdowns. And obviously we're not losing Sports results, so that you would hope the Snai will do better. And then on the B2B side, there are a number of pushes and pulls on that. I would expect the B2B side ex Asia to be not too dissimilar to what it was this year. And if you put all that together, let's say, consensus is around the [ 280, 290 ] level ex Finalto. I don't -- as we sit here, I don't feel uncomfortable with that, with the key caveat that our models are built on the assumption that the lockdowns in the key markets, particularly the U.K. and Italy, have started to ease as we head into Q2. Clearly, the longer those lockdowns go on, the more pressure that, that would put on, on the -- on our expectations.

Yes. On the first 2 questions, I will say what we saw between the different lockdowns. Obviously, as soon as the lockdown is lifted, then obviously there is a spike in retail activity, but over time in the following weeks, we'll see the numbers stabilizing below, slightly below, 80% to 90% of the original activity before the lockdown or before the lockdown started. So a lot of people do go back to the -- to retail, but I believe that it will take some time, potentially a long time, before it will resume the same levels of activity in retail. The interesting fact is that, given the fact that a lot of retail customers moved online, they continue to maintain an online relationship with the operators. And therefore, I believe that it was a quantum leap of this transition between retail and online. And I believe that -- and while a lot of these customers did transact before the lockdown in retail and in some cases in retail and online, and even though they will go back to retail to enjoy the experience and entertainment, I do believe that we will see a step change for the operators in terms of the online volumes and the levels of revenues and EBITDA. If I think about Snai as a good example, I believe that -- in terms of the ability to generate similar level of EBITDA going forward given the relationship with the customers and given the investments into online, I believe that it will remain broadly the same at a high level, which is very, very encouraging. So it was -- I think that the message here is that it's a fundamental change in the market accelerating a natural -- the natural development and shift and transition from retail to online. Back to the U.S. Obviously I think that people underestimate -- and we wouldn't -- we hope for a better reaction for the very strategic relationship we are developing with the Greenwood companies and Parx Casino. I think people underestimate the importance and the ability to extend the relationship in the coming months and years. Let me put it -- let me be bold about it and say the following. I believe that Playtech, by the end of 2021, will be in most states; with more products, including sports betting, in a number of states in the U.S. And one last comment on that: I think that's one of the things, and it's not our nature to try and tarnish our competitors. However, I will say that the Parx Casino agreement involves a migration from what we believe is an inferior system. And I believe that, given how sophisticated the market, the U.S. market, is becoming, the more demand for sophisticated products and solutions will be basically the case. And therefore, I think that Playtech is extremely positioned. Last but not least, if you add on top of that the unique set of expertise and the ability to provide online marketing and online CRM on a structured agreement basis, I think that Playtech is very well placed. I think, if you think about the number of states; the progress within the pandemic, right, more states, more customers, more products, more distribution channels, more verticals -- I think that we are ticking -- that we've started ticking each and every book, and this is why we are so, so excited about it.

Operator, can you take the next question from Simon Davies, please?

Three from me, please. Firstly, returning to Snai online, obviously very impressive performance there and very helpful getting a breakout in terms of profit contribution. The EBITDA margin at 55% is pretty high relative to its peers. Can you talk us through some of the drivers there? I'm assuming marketing spend is relatively low, but is that with sort of full allocation of potential overhead? And do you think that 55% margin is sustainable? Secondly, returning to Slide 8: You break out the performance of U.K. online excluding Sports; and growth was just 1% despite a very, very strong underlying market. I'm assuming retail closure is again a factor there in terms of video, software, but can you talk through some of the factors there? And lastly, just on tax, obviously U.K. corporation tax going back up. Can you talk us through your expectations in terms of the P&L tax charge over the next couple of years?

Yes, sure. Mor, you do number two, I'll do one and three. I'll -- let me do them in reverse order. Just on the tax, [indiscernible], Simon, that it's -- about U.K. tax going up. I mean I think what we have modeled the tax with U.K. -- I think you said [ that the issue would ] change any -- the cash tax. The reason for that is that, although we brought more profits into the U.K., there is a tax shield where you can deduct any corporate's interest that you paid. The fact that we have quite a chunky amount of bonds that we pay interest on, that -- we have a reasonable shield on [ the U.K. tax that we pay ]. So although within a few years, depending on the amount of EBITDA we'll make, obviously, and where we'll make that, we may start paying a little bit more tax, actually [ for certainly the ] coming years, I don't think it's going to be a material amount given that interest shield. Just in terms of the -- our online margin versus our peers, I want -- I'd like to look at that in more detail and get back to you, Simon, but one thing I will say, there's absolutely no doubt that we are benefiting from the fact that we have lower marketing costs for online because we also have -- because of our retail estate. The fact that there's been a marketing ban in the -- in Italy, as we have the retail franchise, has been -- that's been very, very helpful.

Yes. On...

Do you think it's a sustainable level?

Pardon, Simon...

Sorry. Do you think it's a sustainable level at 55%?

Yes, I believe so, but I actually be -- [ I want to be precise when I give you a thorough answer ] before coming back to you on that.

Yes. Simon, on the numbers. Some people usually basically -- and I can understand this. Analysts focus on the 1% instead of the 68% in the line below that. And I think that it is important because, if I think about, if you think about the combination of U.K. and other regulated, which is where we are focused and a true testament of the efforts and the resources we assigned to those opportunities and the potential in the U.S. which is going to be all regulated, I think that actually -- if you think about the 30%, I think it's the right number to focus on, but I'm not trying to avoid the question. The U.K. is coming out of [ pressures ]. We did a lot of things in the U.K. We incentivized operators to build the volumes with us, anticipating or in preparation for a post-COVID world. And therefore, there were certain discounts provided to certain operators in order to incentivize them, specifically in the U.K. which is still the largest online market worldwide. And we incentivize them in order to do business with us. On top of that, during 2020, we extended -- if I -- I think one was extended in the beginning of 2021, but we extended all of our relationships -- all of our significant relationships with U.K. operators across the board. We extended it for 3, 4, 5 years. In most cases or in many cases, it's now 5 years instead of 3, cementing the long-term relationships that we have with them. As part of these new agreements, we had to provide some discounts not least because they are under pressure in the U.K.; not least because of the pandemic and its effects; and not least because of the fact that some of them, a lot of them actually, were going through consolidation. There is also obviously -- even though we get a minimum guarantee from Entain, obviously, in 2020 they moved across to some -- they moved across some of the products to their own proprietary platform, which also had an impact. Overall, I think that -- and I truly mean it. I'm not trying -- again, I was trying to be as upfront and very -- to give you a very -- a full answer. I truly believe that, while the U.K. is an important market for us, considering the fact that our future lies with the U.S. and Latin America and other opportunities outside of the U.K., what everyone should focus on is the 30% between the two or 68%, which is the real future of Playtech. This is where Playtech can really excel, can really make a difference, can really lead to incremental revenues or -- and profit. And it is where we put a lot of efforts and assign a lot of the resources too. Don't get me wrong. We cherish and we respect -- and we have a very, very important and significant relationships in the U.K. We are committed to their continued success in the U.K. Hopefully, this year is -- yes, will be almost a one-off because obviously, once we provided the discounts and we reset the numbers, from next year onwards it will be slightly better, but again I think that the U.K. will come under pressure not least because of the regulatory changes. And actually people should look across the ocean, to the Americas, including North, Central and South America, where we are very, very well positioned; and outside the U.K. If you think about the EUR 15 million to EUR 20 million opportunity in our SaaS platform, it's driven almost in its entirety from countries outside of the U.K. Yes, there is a little bit of U.K., but the majority of the operators are outside or targets other countries other than the U.K. If you think about the EUR 50 million we generated -- or less than EUR 50 million we generated from structured agreements in Latin America, with a medium-term goal of EUR 100 million which is 50 -- doubling the business within the foreseeable future; and then us taking market share in the U.S. which is estimated at, at least $24 billion by 2025 -- I think about it all together. I think about the work, about the people, about the way we did things in 2020, the compassion we showed each other throughout the pandemic. I think that it makes an exciting story, and the future is very bright.

Operator, please, can you take the next question from Ed Young at Morgan Stanley?

The first one I was to ask was [indiscernible]. So I don't know if that's something that you'll get back to all of us on but just very interested to hear about the margin given it's, I think, about 25 points above the larger-scale players globally. The second one...

Yes. I -- so I'll just take that one [indiscernible] the analysts, [ that would be helpful ].

Perfect. That would be helpful. And the second one is on Live Casino. I think it's probably the most positive tone I've heard you on that business for 4 or 5 years probably. Growth sounds like it's better. The game innovation looks like it's quicker. You've been more agile and certainly at the very least sort of following faster. [ I'm looking at the data ] [indiscernible] top games. Can you talk a little bit more about the KPIs, whether it's revenue or other KPIs; and how you see the outlook there for Live? And then my final question -- well, the second one, I guess: I appreciate it's discontinued, but just on Finalto, why were -- why was [ H2's EBITDA modest ] versus H1? It looks like there was almost no variable cost there at all; 34 million of costs in H1, 32 million of costs in H2 despite the fact that revenue was less than half. So can you just help me understand why it was such a modest EBITDA performance in H2?

Sure. Why don't I take both of those? [ I mean I think more will probably add over top on Live ]. Look, I think [indiscernible] Live, it is performing very well. The KPIs are looking good across the board in -- as they've been, the nonfinancials or the financial ones. However, frankly, I'll just put it into context. And I [ push too ] very hard on this. You -- we're coming from, let's say -- I wouldn't say it a low base. It certainly has been growing, but we're not there yet. It's still not the business that it should be. So frankly, I think, given the investments into it -- Mor, do you want to go on mute? So given the investments we've put into it, Ed, and given the fact we've had the COVID boost and given all the good things we're doing as well, I think you would expect the KPIs to look very good, but the bottom line is the work is not done yet. And I think there's still a long, long way to go, yes. I think, on Finalto, there's a number of things, Ed. There was -- and as you know, it is a very lumpy business, but well, as we headed into H2, we expected a lot of the brokers that we work with to be a bit more cautious and scale back just given [ what we made ] in H1 and also given the -- and given a lot of volatility in the market. I think, as you know, that we -- the business then obviously thrives on volatility, but also it is susceptible to market swings as well, which can wipe out some of the money we make. And I think it's fair to say that H2 saw a couple of months where the performance was on the weaker side. It does happen, but I think, given the performance in H1, it was particularly pronounced in terms of what H2 did. But I -- there's nothing that -- particularly unusual to write home about, Ed, in that. Mor, do you want [indiscernible]? I did hear some kind of chainsaw, so let's hope Mor is okay. Could -- do you -- essentially we've lost him for a short while. So...

[indiscernible] there was a little bit -- I apologize. There was a little bit of background noise in the office I use. So I was trying to sort it out. I apologize.

Okay. Did you have anything to add, Mor, to the answer I gave on Live?

No, no. Obviously, we are gaining momentum with -- you have to understand, obviously, establishing a new live customer is something that is very different to an online customer because it involves both, right? You have to develop the software in order and do the project, launching the customer online, but at the same time, you have to establish the operations. And today, because the live casino market becomes somewhat more sophisticated, people want their own dedicated live tables. People want new concepts. I'm happy to say that we are headed in the right direction. We already started taking some market shares, launched with some very promising and important names such as 888 and others. We have done a lot of work. We're in the right direction. It takes a little bit maybe longer than expected, but I do believe that over time the trends that you saw in 2020 will continue in the coming years. And definitely in the U.S. we see a massive opportunity for us because it will be Playtech and Evolution to start with. And as I indicated before, some people -- if you think about retail activities, a lot of people go back to the same casinos that they play in or that they place bets in. And this is also the case online, but in countries where we start together with the newly regulated markets, when we start side-by-side with Evolution, then obviously the -- it's a totally different story. I believe that -- between the Netherlands and some countries across the Americas, including Central and South America and definitely the U.S., I think that there is a massive opportunity for Playtech. Don't get me wrong. The market is big enough for everyone, but I think that within that and the importance of live casino, Playtech obviously is very well placed. We only just started. Projects do take time, but we deliver them one by one. It could have been even better if during the pandemic, but some parts of our operations were closed, not least the [ last ] studio that we have in the Philippines. We have good -- we have a very sophisticated technology that allows us to direct and divert customers from one studio to the other. It's very robust. It's very sophisticated. So we did very well during the pandemic. And we believe that the trends that you saw in 2020 will continue and it will be a recurring theme going forward.

Thanks, Mor. I think we have time for one final question from Ivor Jones, please.

Can we talk about revenue from Software as a Service? What was it in 2020 if the target is EUR 15 million to EUR 20 million? And if that's EUR 100,000 for 200 customers, is that just a very low target? Or is that really what each customer will generate through that model? The first one. Secondly...

No. I thought -- apologies. I thought you'd finished. It was clearly just a pause for breath, Ivor. Okay, let me just take the first one. So the Software as a Service revenues are sort of, let's say, high single digits at the moment. And whether you say, will they -- are we giving a conservative number? I think the answer is yes, to be honest. And I think, over time, there's 2 things that should happen, Ivor. One is that you get more customers; and two, that hopefully, each one of them will generate more and more. And then essentially I think [ you'll just then multiply and multiply the two together ], which I think is fair enough. There is a ramp-up period. And so actually what you see with these is there is continuous growth every single month in these numbers, but I think it will become more and more material over time because obviously it is a pure software model. So it just does drop largely from revenues straight through to EBITDA, but I think your working assumption, Ivor, and how you started was broadly correct.

Okay, but you're really setting a medium-term target of a delta of only EUR 10-ish million of revenue for 2020...

I think it was to give people a bit of a flavor, Ivor, but I think certainly, if you look a couple of years out, it will be more than that.

Okay. And what, Mor, you were talking about in relation to the U.K. was, I guess, margin compression. It will be really helpful to know what the underlying system revenue growth was in the U.K. And so we got some idea of how much the margin was compressed to get to only 1% growth. Because I don't know what the margin is on the revenue that grew 68%. So I don't know what the potential for margin compression is there. So if you did talk about margin, then I'd have a better understanding of what the dynamic is in the business.

It's very difficult. It's I think we've said this before. It's very difficult to talk about margin because ultimately it is broadly a shared cost base across, regardless whether it's the U.K. or all the regulated or, for that matter, unregulated markets. If you think about the expenses, it's -- the costs is it's new games. It's changes to the platform. It's improvements...

I'm sorry, Andy. I'm sorry. I wasn't clear. I meant you know the royalty rate against which you're charging a royalty. So given that the U.K. -- to Simon's point, given the U.K. revenue from operators must have gone up a lot, then the royalty rate that you're charging against it must have gone down a lot. I was talking about that margin.

Okay. [ So it's I think you're saying ] -- yes. You're saying that there must have been a significant increased [ sales ] activity offset by [ royalty ]. There's a -- the thing is there's a number of different things in there. So for example, our largest customer in the U.K., Entain, as I think everyone is aware, they -- we give them more flexibility specifically in the U.K. so that we could -- and then as part of that deal, we then took more of their business from Europe. So actually one of the big -- there's a lot of moving parts there, but probably the single biggest moving part is what is the deal that we struck with Entain.

And would you -- maybe not call it margin. Maybe call it take rate. Would you comment on what your take rate is on the other regulated revenue relative to the U.K. revenue at its new level? Is there a possibility of that to decline?

Yes. I think -- I mean it's probably one we'll have to take offline, Ivor, because there are so many moving parts, but for example...

Yes. Andy, if I may, I just want to reiterate. I just want to add a few comment, a few, just to put Ivor -- to give him the comfort. Obviously the U.K. is very, very different to any other market worldwide. It exists from the mid-90s in one way or the other, even before it was regulated in 2007 by the Gambling Act 2005. That came into effect in 2007, allowing whitelisted jurisdictions. It's a market that exists for 20-plus years. It's not what we see elsewhere. However, Ivor, I think that it is important to say: The -- what we did last year was on the back of some, I would say, structural changes in the U.K., right? Remember Coral merged with Ladbrokes to be bought by Entain or what formerly used to be GVC. William Hill bought a number of businesses. Others basically -- Flutter used to be Betfair and Paddy Power, to become -- Paddy Power to acquire -- PokerStars and Sky Bet -- PokerStars -- bought Sky Bet. There were structural changes in light of the pressures in the U.K. We don't expect that it will continue in the same pace. Add on top of that, that now our contracts is -- are secured for the coming years. And on top of that, the fact -- and I tell you here and now that we believe that we cannot go below the current level we charge. Now to give you the comfort and in order to mitigate the risks elsewhere, I will say 2 things. First, that we already provide in other parts of -- outside of the U.K., other parts of the world outside of the U.K. not a very different level because of the level of competition. And because we want to remain competitive, we provide the software at broadly similar levels, but the most important element is that the nature and type of relationships that we have outside of the U.K. are very, very different, right? We have a 25-year contract with a Finnish monopoly. We have a 5-year contract in Poland. And as we indicated this morning, out of the EUR 126.8 million other regulated markets outside of the U.K., a lot of that or currently already something along the lines of just below 40% is structured agreements, where the contracts are for 20 years or a lifelong contract. And we do not believe -- given the importance of Playtech, given the contribution of Playtech and given the key role Playtech plays in those, we believe that there won't be any pressures on what we charge. And therefore, I think that the risk is very, very minimal. So when you consider the consolidation, the pressures and how long the market in the U.K. is regulated compared to others, we do not expect any changes [ dwells ] and don't see this as a real risk. And I can tell you that, on the back of certain conversations and contract extensions, in other parts outside, it's not only the U.K. where we extended contracts. We extended a lot of contracts other than the structured agreements that are lifelong or 20 years. We extended contracts with other operators outside of the U.K. We haven't seen a real -- we haven't seen any price pressures. And we entered into new agreements that give us the comfort that the level we charge, which is very competitive, is sustainable going forwards. I hope that it helps.

And Ivor, if I can. [ Apologies to come back to that ]. Actually I was [indiscernible] the reason being, to be honest, it goes back to the points I made in the presentation that I think, as our businesses evolves -- as you know, we've moved away from disclosing casinos, Sports, et cetera. But I think certainly is this evolved. And if you look at potentially revenue disclosure and certainly cost disclosure as well, I'm not really sure at the moment that we've kept up with the disclosure externally. Internally, clearly there are differences in disclosure and analysis, but externally to be -- [ so that's where ] I can point to the numbers [ towards for that ], Ivor. So I'm actually pleased you raised it because this is exactly the reason that we're going to be looking at this.

Brilliant. That's -- and just one more quick question given the time. Across the sector, companies are talking about sustainability and using it in a slightly different way. Can you just talk about how the Board came to a conclusion about wanting a sustainable business and having material revenue from markets in Asia where the operators are not domestically licensed? Has that been reviewed conclusively and that discussion has ended? Or when might it next be reviewed, about whether that can be part of a sustainable business?

Yes. So obviously we all aspire to have a sustainable business and a sustainable industry. And we are committed to that. We have certain objectives and targets and it's all consolidated our -- under our Sustainable Success. I think that unregulated markets, over the course of the last maybe 15 years since it started or just below 15 years, with Italy being first, after the U.K., to regulate the market, shows that [ it courts this ]. If you think about other companies in the U.K., they may have China alongside the U.K. and the U.S. They may have the U.K., U.S. alongside Japan. They may have a business in the U.K. and the U.S. alongside Brazil that is not yet regulated. Many still operate in Canada. Many still operate in Russia. I don't think -- it depends on how you look at it. I don't think that operating in Asia is -- makes a difference. I think that the market -- if you look at the growth of Playtech, if you look at the relative contribution of unregulated altogether to the overall revenues and profits over time as more -- as markets regulate and become -- the unregulated part of the business becomes smaller -- and it is only natural that it happens. I will again mention the fact that many operators that operate into Asia, including other -- including some software providers. Take for example another live casino provider that stands on the podium and says that some of the growth or a lot of the growth or most of the growth and most of the business is driven by unregulated markets. I think that it coexists. I think that it's a -- natural. It's part of the natural development of this industry. Obviously, the Board evaluates the regulatory position as well as the commercial opportunity in each and every market, no doubt evident by the 68% increase in our other regulated revenues. I think that people have the evidence that we are focused on regulated markets, but it does not in contradiction -- it is not in contradiction with some unregulated markets where we believe and others believe and some of our largest customers believe they can operate. And they obtain all their legal views to support that to ensure they do that in a responsible way and that it is sustainable.

Thanks, Mor. And thanks, everyone, for joining today. That concludes the conference call. And as always, please follow up directly with me if you have any further questions. Thanks, everyone.

Thank you. Have a great day. And keep safe.