poLight ASA (PLT) Q4 FY2025 Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Good morning, everybody, and welcome to poLight's fourth quarter presentation. So my name is Oyvind Isaksen, I'm the CEO. Together with me today is the CFO, Joakim Bredahl; and the Board Chair, Grethe Viksaas. So it's the normal drill, the normal agenda, key events, which is quite a few this quarter, quite a few. Introduction to poLight quickly, market review, financial review by the CFO, outlook and Q&A. Since this presentation is webcast, if there's any question from the audience, please wait for the microphone so that everybody can hear your question. Yes. Okay. And if I'm starting to coughing, I apologize for that. I came back from Las Vegas with a lot of bugs. So I'm still kind of struggling to get over that. But hopefully, I will manage this presentation without too much noise. Key events in the quarter, as I said, quite a few. Those related to AR/MR, which is, as we said many times, a key focus area for poLight. The TLens-related cases is mentioned first there. This is, I would say, extremely encouraging to see how the consumer TLens cases is maturing. In the quarter, we announced a quite big and extremely strategic important contract of NOK 5 million, supporting a top-tier Tier 1 U.S. consumer electronic OEM in designing TLens-based cameras for AR/MR application. This is quite a unique case. It's basically us taking a role of coordinating all aspects of a camera, which is, as I said, unique. Normally, we are kind of a player -- sub-supplier to a camera module player. Here, we are actually kind of on the top, advising and managing all the suppliers, lens maker, camera module guy, how to integrate TLens optimal way. So this is, I would say, a little bit like a -- yes, what should I say, a platform type development. So we have high hopes that this will, over time, mean that this can be deployed in many different customers. We also had a follow-on purchase orders summing up to slightly less than NOK 1 million from another AR/MR big guy. This is related to also consumer product, and we are now into, I would say, a very mature PoC, a very mature PoC. Of course, everything can go wrong still. It's not done before the product is in the shop, but everything is moving in the direction of positive, I would say. There are still technical challenges, both on our side and -- generally speaking -- for this product. But yes, super important progress during the quarter. Then also, we got a follow order on the AR/MR enterprise customer. And then post quarter, we got another PO for TLenses to -- for a consumer product related to qualification program, which we have talked about before, like 11 February 2026, we announced this. And this is basically also a proof that this -- when we announced this first time, it proves that it's kind of moving in the direction of reality. So very good, I would say, progress on the TLens AR/MR side. On the TWedge side, we have, what should I say, an impressive interaction with many of the same guys as we do with TLens, but related to TWedge. We actually had a very sizable order intake in the quarter. It's the same. There's no new players in this. It's basically the same who do repeat orders, which kind of is very good, means that it's progressing. So without going into details of each of these events, I would say that when it comes to TWedge, we are in the process of starting to converge to a design. There may be several designs for different players. I will come back to it, but we can see now that we are starting to get ready to kind of freeze some designs and potentially start a real product development. Design-wins. We have one design-win on -- I'll repeat design-win on the high-end MR headset, which was announced October 9, and also a design-win for TLens for this Snke AR medical headset. On the industrial, healthcare side, we have, during the quarter, also good progress. We have 3 companies who is commercially offering this Mini2P system. One of them placed an order of NOK 2.6 million, which shows that there is a market of this advanced scientific instruments. We also have a PO from the company who's planning to use TLens in the IRIS scanner system. That's still not shipping, as far as we know. So it's only classified as a design-in, not a win. Then we have a lot of -- we should say -- active and increasing number of design-wins in China, when it comes to barcode, machine vision. And this quarter, we also got a -- sorry, post quarter, we got a -- no, this quarter, we got a NOK 1.9 million PO from a leading machine vision player in China. And then post quarter, we got another China PO for barcode, machine vision, slightly less than NOK 1 million. And also, we launched MLens during the quarter -- post quarter, and it's interesting to see the momentum that creates actually. So it's going to be interesting to see how that develops over time. From a design-win perspective, we have our first endoscope -- industrial endoscope design-win happening. And that's with Dellon. You saw the press release there. Kind of a little bit -- came a little bit out of the blue. So interesting. Let's see. I think it's going to be small volume, but it's a good showcase. And then we had a repeat design-win from an existing barcode scanner new customer. And this is what's very interesting. You can see from design-win slide that many of these existing customers just continue to release new product for using TLens in the various type of products and barcode scan engines. So I guess, repeat orders is like the best proof that we are able to supply quality products to customers and support them. So a lot of nice news flow in Q4, very strategic dimension to many of them. So we're happy for that. So quickly on poLight. So as many of you know, you're focusing consumer and enterprise industrial. The main focus, I would say, the majority of the effort in the organization and activity is related to AR/MR. But there are also important activities in the more industrial side. Our technology is unique. We have a technology platform. First product is TLens, which is a tunable lens, which is an autofocus actuator. But we also have started, as you know, a wobulator program called TWedge, which is used for display enhancement. Very high, very good speed is our technology. We can do very compact solution, constant field of view, meaning no pumping, very, very low power consumption. This is actually critical for AR/MR devices, where the budget for power is very constrained. And also, we have a kind of a built-in athermalization, which actually brought us into the first AR/MR case, Magic Leap. Yes, we've been listed since 2018. We were celebrating 20 years in last year, very distributed organization, Norway, Finland, France, Belgium, actually also U.K., U.S., China, Taiwan, Japan, and the Philippines. So we are -- basically, why are we so many places? Because we are there where the customer are, needed to support them on a daily basis. And we also are where the customer or manufacturing partners are based. And of course, we also need to be where there are talent to be recruited. It's not so easy to find in many of these kind of technical fields we are operating, there is limited resources in Norway. So we need to be -- we need to think globally and act locally. Yes, you know this, but for those who are new, the first product is TLens, smallest, lowest power consumption and fastest actuator in the market for sure. Getting a lot of traction, specific now on the AR/MR side, due to its compactness and speed and low power consumption. So we're basically putting voltage on the MEMS piezo die, which is underneath that die, there is a polymer, which is the gel, which is the mimicking the lens metal in your eye. But putting voltage, this membrane bends, shaping the polymer, changing the focus from close to infinity. So that is in essence -- and then we have a driver, ASIC driver, who is kind of making that voltage onto the membrane. We are fabless as a company. We don't produce the polymer ourselves in Tonsberg. This is very scalable and easy for us to do. And also, we don't need a lot of resources to do it. We don't need a lot of space. Like 1 liter of polymer is kind of million lenses. So it takes very little effort in a way. The uniqueness of the polymer is obviously in the mixing and what it contains, and doing it ourself doesn't imply that we don't need to share recipe with anybody. Having said that, one of the more complex things we do is the MEMS wafer, which we have to be thousands of people if you're going to do it ourselves. So we are partnering with STMicro, and they do the MEMS wafer. That MEMS wafer is 8-inch and comprises of that membrane you see on top, which we have voltage from 0 to 50. It's more than 2,000 of these dies in 1 8-inch wafer. So we ship that to our assembly partner in Philippines, and now also China. And they do the dicing, dispensing of the polymer, pick and place, and yes, curing; and then have a TLens either with or without package. So that's happening at the Philippines and China. China is the Q Tech line. Then we are spending a lot of time in the market on the right side of this value chain, the OEMs, the product owners is basically the guys we are convincing as the decision what to use of actuators is very often happening in on the OEM side. So we spend a lot of time there. Successfully, we have done that, I would say. Then, of course, we need to support the camera module guys, so that they are able to integrate our TLens into the camera module. And here we work with all the camera module guys, which the OEMs want us to support. So even though Q Tech is, of course, a very strategic important partner, we work with all camera module guys, which OEMs want us to support. That's a clear strategy. Different ways of integrating TLens. The simplest is to use a so-called add-on, where the TLens on top of the camera module, more complex and also can facilitate bigger image sensor, and also can be more compact is to add-in where the TLens is kind of buried inside the lens stack as an element there. Yes, so that's the quick about poLight. As I mentioned in the beginning, we are targeting growth markets. I think, as I said, majority of the effort we do is AR/MR driven. And we do see that that market is really starting now to be more and more mature. Of course, there is still a way to go to see very advanced AR glasses kind of shipping. That's still a few years ahead, I believe. But there are so many now who is positioning themselves for these kind of devices, and we are working with many of them. But what you can see already is that those more like AI glasses, which is more the smart glasses you have, as an example, there are many out there now coming. One of these well more known is the Meta, the Ray-Bans, Oakley. Those are actually shipping in very big volumes already. A big growth was happening last year. So this is kind of, in a way, the first market in this space. MR devices also there are not many players in that market, and more players positioning themselves for the AI and AR, but MR will still be an important element of this market. So we have decided that we need to use our limited resources to get a very strong position in this market. Of course, we don't overlook other important consumer markets, definitely. Smartphone has been a big focus for the company over many, many years. I would say that we use less time on that now because we feel that the AR/MR opportunity is bigger for us, and also that our technology has a strong differentiation in that application. Consumer smartphone is important, and we're not going to say that we do not address it, but it's also a very, very commoditized market. Price pressure is extreme, close to 0 innovation. So all the innovation is happening in the AR/MR side, we feel. We still support the machine vision and industrial. Why do we do that? Long lifetime. One of the cases which we have is the Honeywell EX30. We got that assignment in 2020. And we're still receiving POs for that product, which is good. Maybe it's 5x higher pricing than we do in consumer. So it's nice gross margins coming from this market, and we intend to continue to push. We try to move up in the value chain by implementing M12, which is supposed to be a much easier way to implement our technology. Hopefully, that will bring a new momentum also into this. Yes. So those are the key markets. And we -- sometimes when we allow ourselves to dream, we believe that automotive and healthcare can also be important markets. But we don't have resources, and partly also not the product, to address this market at the moment in a proper way. This slide started to be very messy, but it's a good platform. It's a good platform to communicate poLight's story to customers. I remember when we did IPO in 2018, October. I was talking to the financial market, and this slide was blank. That was quite a challenge to do. And since then, we have populated this slide and the icons started to get smaller and smaller. I think I need to split this into 2, 3 slides in the future. You can see very strong platform already built in the AR/MR. Those consumer cases, which is now maturing, is actually looking at those references and they are buying those kind of products, test it. So it's a good showcase for us. And on the right side, you see the industrial market segment, which has started to be quite significant when it comes to design-wins. I will not go into the details on the news flow in the quarter because that's already kind of been presented in the key events. Focus, as I said, has been AR/MR, but there is also some preparation work related to laptops and various accessories, which we see some promising moves. There is a couple of proof of concepts related to laptop, which is promising. Of course, it's also a challenging application because of the screen, it's very thin. So the TTL, the height of the camera module is critical. But it's interesting to see that we have proposed some designs, which seems to be not far away from what can be acceptable. And one of the reasons why they want to kind of maybe show something in front of the camera and they're going to move from yourself to something like there to show something and that needs AF. So that's one kind of obvious application. Another way of, say, why we have a potential position is that, of course, we are compact when it comes to XY. We add a little bit thickness, so that's not good. Another thing is that mechanical devices, we are not always very nice to the laptop. We take the laptop screen and we slam it down. And if you're going to have some rattling inside there, every time you shut down and your lens stack and your VCM will start to cry. So we have some advantages when it comes to mechanical robustness. We are very positive to our position with TLens in the AR/MR. This is TLens related slide. But I think it's also fair to say that there will be a battle of also in that area for sure. We know all the VCM, and we also have other tunable lenses and even fighting against no autofocus. So I think we need to say that it's also something -- it's not given that this is going to fly big time due to fixed focus and due to other technologies. I think it's unlikely to be that we -- anybody will be alone. There will always be competition. They like -- customer likes to see competition, of course. So they explore many different technologies. Having said that, the feedback we get from the guys we work with, which is quite a few and quite big names, is encouraging. It is definitely encouraging. One of our supplier is a big one, is talking to the same customer we are talking to, and they came back to me the other day and said, you know, we talk to this and this, and they were so positive about TLens for their future products. So that's -- it's a very good progress. It's very good signs, but we are not going to be there alone. So we need to be very competitive. So on the TWedge side, also consumer related, yes, so TWedge, you see this animation on the bottom right side, where the piezo arms are bending and tilting that glass membrane, meaning that the beam going through that device will be tilted. There will be a wedge. And this we use for beam steering basically, wobulation in our case. How can I say it? When I did this slide, I said, very high interest, but then I'm a modest guy, so I reduced it to high interest, but it is really high interest, really high interest, very high interest. And like in the quarter, we had NOK 3.5 million in POs from this market between, say, a few small handful of players, which is we're selling very expensive. And in a way, we're using the price also to limit a little bit the engagement we have, because there's a limit to what we can support. So that was up from NOK 1.2 million for the last previous 2 quarters. I think we have more than NOK 7 million for the year in POs for TWedge. These guys, they don't spend that kind of money for fun. So it's very serious. And we had an extensive roadshow myself and some of my team members in the market. And they are giving us a feedback. I ask, okay, will TWedge be an important product for you -- and for how long? And the feedback we get, it definitely is a key component for our product, for our design, they say. And they're also saying that we don't see really anything which can do better. As long as you can have that compactness and the low power consumption, this is probably our cheapest way to get a better display. They compare it to other ways of doing it, but they will be more expensive. Then I'm asking, but yes, guys, when do you need me to ship volumes? And then they say, we think we needed -- this was Q4 last year, that we needed and we feel a couple of years. So then I had a call last week with one of the big guys, say, if you want us to be ready in 2 years from now, you better start a program with us. So that's what we do now. We try to kind of motivate them to kick off a program to be mass production ready in, say, 1.5 to 2 years. So -- and as I said before, it's amazing to see how many use cases they see. Of course, resolution enhancement, that's what everything started with that. But after that, many different applications has developed. So this is a picture of the latest TS5, and there's a big flex connector. And then you see the small aperture size and the 2 piezo rods, which you see as animated below. Interesting product. Yes. So here you can see, we are 4 design wins, same as last quarter. So the bracket is the last quarter. We have 23 ongoing PoCs, up from 22; and 24 planning PoCs, up from 19. And as you can see that 19 of these 23 is related to a consumer AR/MR; 20 of the planning PoC is related to AR/MR consumer, which is good for the future. Enterprise AR/MR is low. On the Snke and the high-end head-mounted display MR is shipping. The other way is end of life. I think you still can maybe get Magic Leap, because they probably had some inventory. So they represent a low volume, but they represent a fantastic showcase. I think, this market will also grow as technology mature. And we likely will see more enterprise cases. If you look at the latest on the Snke, it's a good example of that this kind of devices are coming into important market segments like healthcare. Yes. Again, this is all AR/MR, not only consumer, but you can see it's really dominated by the PoC, the future is dominated by consumer, whereas the existing design-wins, which is up by 2, is dominated by enterprise. On the barcode industrial side, so we did actually have NOK 2 million order intake in this market, barcode, specifically barcode, which is similar to the previous quarter, majority from existing customer. So we have one new design-win in a new market segment, which is the endoscope, which I don't know, to be honest, how big can be, but it's interesting to have a reference in a, yes, different industrial application. Maybe the more exciting thing now is the M12. We already got the first PO on that. And they are lining up quite a number of advanced players who wanted to use M12. Again, M12, what is it? It's TLens inside, actually 2, and they can easily integrate it by just screwing it into an M12 system and reduce a lot the NRE, the effort they need to design us into the solutions. So let's see. Yes, here we can see the overview, 28 design-win, up by 2; 3 design-in, down from 4; 11 PoCs, down from 15; and 22 planning PoC. So quite an extensive activity also in this area. But I would say it takes us less effort than the AR/MR for sure, and that we need to continue. Nothing very new to say about healthcare. It's still the case that we are not able to see big volumes in healthcare in the consumer and endoscopes. But on the other side, there are a few cases where we are involved in end endoscope application. But as I've said many times, the image sensor is still relatively lower solution, meaning that they don't cry for AF, but there is a trend that it's going up and 5 mega will quickly means that they need some AF solution likely. So maybe. At the meantime, we are supporting some POCs on the endoscope from China mainly, and we are supporting these Mini2P players, and which was the kind of the biggest PO for this quarter. Automotive, basically nothing happening. No, I'm lying. There is a little bit happening there with quite a big guy who is wanting to look into our technology. We just signed an NDA. So we are too early to say what it will mean. But what we have seen in all the other activities we had with this market is that we are too small. So -- but we have a solution for bigger, but quite expensive. So let's see what happens. Yes. So that's to sum up. I don't need to read that in detail. Super good activity, a lot of cases maturing. And we are extremely, I would say, optimistic about the future with this pipeline. And this is [ Joakim Bredahl's ] slide. So flattening out, you can see on -- in this quarter. And this is related to that we have removed all the PoCs in the healthcare related to the universities, which have not the focus to develop a commercial instrument. So we have removed kind of the research of buying a lenses here and there at university, because we don't understand what they do and we have no visibility. So we removed that. That's why it's kind of flattening out. So you can't compare. It's not apple-to-apple. I think we removed 9 cases from ongoing PoC on healthcare. So you Joakim. You're up.

Thank you. So we have -- we turn our eyes to the revenue first. I think I've stood here a couple of quarters now saying that we're almost at record high revenues. And then in Q4 '25, we finally made it. So it's the all-time highest revenue for poLight ever, but still at a level where we are quite far from profitability in the quarter. But still, it's -- that revenue is driven by great effort from the sales team getting POs. It's driven by the operations delivering on the POs. It's driven by R&D helping the OEMs understand. So it's a massive team effort to deliver that top line. And as we further develop, that teamwork is going to -- we're going to capitalize on those interactions and grow from that. We can then turn our eyes -- well, here you can say that the margin, the margin is 60%. So that's also quite good in the quarter. I'll get back to a bit one factor influencing that. And around 70% of the revenue is in AR/MR. The costs, we can see that the R&D expenses are quite a lot higher than they were in the same quarter last year. That's driven by several factors. One is external development costs, particularly related to the lead-free program and the MLens -- development of the MLens. There's quite a significant share option reserve, cost reserve. And also, we had higher soft funding in 2024 -- several factors counting into that, but we had higher soft funding, which reduced the cost in the Q4 of '24. So that didn't help us on the cost side as much as it did then. On operations, there's also higher cost. And much of that is related to the effort and time spent, and also the travel costs related to helping and supporting Q Tech setting up the production line. So quite a lot of effort from both our local teams, but also our team in Norway and France. All in all, this leads to an EBITDA that is not that far away from the corresponding quarter last year, just NOK 0.5 million higher -- less, or more loss. And if we then turn our eyes to the balance sheet, the most significant number is definitely our cash balance, which is stands at a healthy NOK 284 million, which is helped considerably, of course, by the 2 capital infusions that came in, in June and July, of NOK 210 million. So that's -- that was massively important for us. Also, our inventory is quite high still, NOK 53.5 million. Most of that is wafers. And we have a rule where we, for the sake of prudency, we write down the value of the inventory by 10% every year, that it's in the inventory, and we call that the obsolescence provision. So that's a recurring theme every quarter given the high inventory and still waiting to ramp and really spend that inventory. That has a positive gross margin effect when and if those wafers are assembled into TLens and sold. So there's a positive effect on that later on. In addition, we do a calculatory cost of goods sold during the year. And then at the end of the year, we do a stock taking and we figure out was our COGS correct. And this year, we had a positive adjustment to the inventory of NOK 0.5 million. So that also reduced our COGS in the quarter by NOK 0.5 million, which again contributed to the positive gross margin. On the cash flow side, now there was a net decrease in cash, both in -- and this is, of course, related to the change between -- but this is the net decrease in cash in Q4 of '25, and also in Q4 of '24. It was slightly higher, NOK 0.8 million higher in this year or Q4 '25. It was driven by the change in OpEx, which is a bit of a plus and minus. It's a higher gross margin, but also higher operational costs. So that's one factor driving it. The other is the change in working capital, which saw an improvement in both Q4 '24, but also Q4 '25, but it was even higher in Q4 '24. So that's a difference. But then again, we also saw a higher interest on the deposits in Q4 '25. And that's driven by 2 things in particular. Of course, the main thing is higher deposits. We had a cash balance of NOK 284 million, and the capital infusions of NOK 210 million that has really contributed. Also let me brag a bit about my own people too, the finance department. Our VP of Finance works diligently to get the best interest we can on those deposits. So that's also a negotiation that's going on, on a running basis to make sure that we have that. So all in all, it's been a good quarter for poLight financially, in terms of the historical performance, and it's been a full team effort. And it's going to be a full team effort in the future too, and that's why I'll leave you to Oyvind for an outlook and a glimpse into the future.

Thanks, Joakim. Okay. Then let's move to the outlook. One slide to go, then we're done. And then maybe there are a few questions after that. So we closed the year with a very strong momentum. Can you see that we are happy? We are super happy. And this has -- even though some of you have given us a little bit like saying that this year seems to be slow, we don't feel that at all. It's a really high activity. It's unhealthy high activity. And Grethe is telling me, don't kill the organization. So the long-term outlook is really remains positive, particularly again, back to the AR/MR, but also other. And there are some, I would say, very important consumer AR/MR cases, which are maturing and may approach important meaningful milestones during the year. So that's very motivating. I like to be balanced, and we should also say that it's not a walk in the park. There are many challenges ahead of us, and we're not going to be alone. Whether they use TLens as a technology in this market, AR/MR market is, of course, what we plan for and many plan for that. But there will be multiple approaches used. We will coexist with others. There will be many coming out with fixed focus solutions. So -- but bear with us, AF will be needed. The big guys will move there first. And we are one of the, I would say, best candidates as we see it being very objective. As I said, TWedge remains very strong. We are now -- as I said during my TWedge presentation, is that we are now actually going into a new phase, sitting down with the customer and discussing -- guys, if you want us to ship volumes, we need to start something, and we would like to ask you for money. Because this is such a specialized market. It's like TLens can have a quite big market, quite diversified market. The TWedge is a very specific market where the system complexity is extremely high, and there will be purpose-made devices for some of the big guys. That's why we -- I'm telling you we cannot do move alone. We need your commitment and we need your financial support. So that's what we are aiming for. And hopefully, in mid this year, we are able to kind of lock some customers to start that program. As I said, in many ways, it's -- we have an unhealthy high activity. Some of the resources -- key resources we have is really, really overloaded, has been for some time. So we are in the process now of hiring a lot of people. We need to build for future. This is going to cost, of course, but it's only a way to get the customer we want, which is very demanding. It's Premier League type customers. And we need to have an organization which is capable of supporting these guys. So we will need to take an increased cost, but it is for benefit for the future and for shareholder value. So that's the outlook statement, which is we feel a very promising outlook. And as I said, quarter-by-quarter, we feel that we see progress and Q4 had a very, very encouraging progress. My dear, CFO, you want to join us for the Q&A?

Okay.

Maybe there are a couple of questions.

There are some.

There are some. Okay.

Should we start with the ones that we got beforehand?

Okay.

We've also managed to categorize them. So we can do this category by category.

We didn't manage -- we can manage.

Oh, yes. But then we helped with the additional question.

Yes.

So first category, Q Tech. Could you explain some about how the work on the assembly line for Q Tech is going? Is the OEM satisfied with the progress and how you are doing?

The work at Q Tech is progressing, as we speak. We are running a qualification of units being produced at Q Tech. And this qualification is kind of to qualify that what came out of that line is good quality. So this is kind of -- we are in the middle of that process of -- so far, it looks good, but it's not completed. It is not an easy thing to set up this assembly line with TLenses. So it has taken time, and we're still not finished, but we are progressing quite well. We, as poLight, spend a lot of time, of course, supporting Q Tech in getting this up and running. As I said, the first unit has been produced and is going through a qualification. Qualification means that we take the produced lenses which were produced as Q Tech, compare them to what's produced in the Philippines; get them through qualification, temperature, humidity, drop test, all these kind of qualification programs we need to do, which is approved by OEMs and to see how they perform in that process. So that's ongoing at the moment. So these OEMs are never fully satisfied. They want quicker, faster and more data, more visibility, but we are running like crazy to try to support them and make them happy.

A follow-on question to that. It's the latest PO for the backing OEMs. So this is the one that we had now this quarter with a final call-off of the last 50%. Is that produced at Q Tech? I think you've answered that.

It's -- some of them are there, but only the qualification units. Those units which is going into the program is likely coming from the Philippines, but part of them will go to a qualification program. After they qualify, they will go into camera modules.

How do you perceive the interest in TLens from OEMs now after having input from decision-makers in meetings with Q Tech?

Now as I said many times, Q Tech's investment, and of course, we all know the background for that investment is super critical and super positive. And -- but also, I think it's also fair to say in respect to our own organization that these cases we have worked on for many years. Then Q Tech brings us into some new cases, but those are less mature.

Now moving on to the next category, which is quite a large category, AR. How would you characterize the maturity and concentration of your consumer AR/MR pipeline today?

I feel we have said enough about that.

Yes. I agree. I agree. And you announced a leading OEM with a PO in Q4, that was in 24th of November press release and that lenses were to be delivered in Q4 '25. How do you see the progress of this customer? And can you say something about the geographical area this customer comes from?

Yes. So this is one of them when I say that there are some of the cases which is listed as PoC, which is maturing significantly. So this is one of this case which is maturing significantly. And I would try to avoid commenting on where it is because then you start to add 1 and 1 and you get 5. So -- but we are -- when it comes to AR/MR, we are mainly focusing on U.S. and China. So you pick.

You have announced 3 POs on projects with top tiers/leading OEMs in the last 6 months. That's also dated in August, in October and in November. Can you say something about whether all of these use Q Tech as a potential camera module maker? Or are there some of them that primarily use other camera module makers?

Yes, Q Tech is actually involved in -- and I have to think all these cases, but not alone.

Following the -- let me, following the February call-off related to the top-tier U.S. consumer OEM qualification program, how would you describe the remaining validation and industrial readiness steps before the program could transition into a formal design-in or design-win?

Yes. These guys are extremely thorough, and we don't have the full visibility. But I think that you can say we are now in PoC stage, some of them mature PoC stage. And then when they kind of lock the design, have component qualification ready, then they -- we can kind of potentially call it a design-in. For some of these cases, which is today listed as PoC, you can say, if I were more bullish, I could say that some of them could maybe be qualified as design-in. But I feel still that there are some risk which lead us to still qualify them as PoC, but adding a comment that they are starting to be very mature PoCs. So it's very difficult to say when. But more like a generic comment, I believe that this year, there may be meaningful milestones achieved in the consumer AR/MR space for poLight. What does that mean? I'm not sure myself, but I feel it's something good will happen this year.

Okay. So next question, a bit complex. There are probably around 8 to 10 top players as OEMs. Have any of those who have not announced a PO with poLight in the last 6 months had any progress within TLens-related development?

Yes. We have activity with other OEMs, which is not kind of in the list of these kind of events, key events. So yes, we do have other customers, but they are much less mature.

Can you say something about how you experienced the TWedge feedback from the last technical sample? Does it seem to be that TWedge is close to an approved form factor? And if so, when will you decide whether the interest is great enough for a decision to be made about building up production capacity?

I think we have answered that.

Yes, you referenced that at the end. So a general question about the camera module manufacturers. How is the relationship with the other camera module manufacturers now that the work with Q Tech has come this far? I mean you've...

Yes. I think -- it's important for us to say, as poLight is that we support all camera module guys being asked by the OEMs. So of course, we do a lot of things with Q Tech, as you know, but we also have other engagements which we need to take care of and we do.

Are there more companies considering working even harder to flaunt that they have TLens in their range of tech and wanted to promote this to their customers?

It's very much driven from the OEM, to be honest. The camera module guys, I wouldn't say they are slow, because that's the wrong word, but they are moving in the direction the OEMs ask them to move. You don't see a lot of proactiveness on the technology front from the camera module guy. They are moving in the direction the OEM is directing them.

Okay. Then we move on to the category barcode. Very exciting to see that MLens was launched in the New Year. How does interest look for this now? And can you say something about feedback among those who have tested it out?

Positive feedback, I would say, and also a pipeline -- positive pipeline being built up in the machine vision side. So yes, it looks good. I think hopefully, this year, we will see the start of picking up, not in full pace. That will be 2027 plus, but it will be hopefully a good start this year.

It was mentioned that you are releasing the first 2 MLenses now. When do you think the last 2 versions of MLens will be ready for the market?

A little bit dependent on the feedback, but I guess it will be within the next 12 months.

Following the MLens launch in January for industrial machine vision, how would you describe early market traction and the expected revenue contribution over the next 12 to 24 months?

Of course, we have an outline of revenue contribution, which I don't like to share with you, but it -- we think that this product can have a significant contribution to top line in the machine vision side.

I mean, part of moving up in the value chain also means exact price point...

Exactly. Good point. So we are not only selling the lenses, the TLenses, we are selling a product having a value of, say, EUR 100 instead of EUR 10.

So moving on to a general tech category. Can you say something about lead-free TLens? What positive side effects can the lead-free TLens have compared to a standard TLens? I think it alludes to something you said last quarter too.

Yes, yes. So I think that the lead-free TLens program is progressing quite well. We have assembled the first lenses based on the new wafer, lead-free, promising results. Of course, there are questions which we need to answer and find solution too. We have a partner meeting in Singapore in a couple of days. So that looks promising. We're already discussing with our partner when and how to take it into mass production. So that looks good. Of course, there are challenges. We don't have all solution and answers, but so far, so good, I would say. What was the positive side effects? Yes. So this is a different material than PCT, which means that they have new and different characteristics, maybe linearity, hysteresis, drift issues are better actually with this new material. So it could have kind of -- it could be potentially easier for customers to integrate this technology compared to PCT.

How many OEMs and camera module manufacturers are pushing for a lead-free version to be developed?

It's -- we believe that there are some of the very biggest guys, they are very kind of, what should I say, environmental profile want to have -- get rid of all like in this example, lead in the components. So it's -- I would say, today it's very few, but they are the big ones, and we expect other will follow this trend. But as I said in the last question is that one thing is that lead-free from a green environmental perspective, the level of lead is so low that you can argue whether it doesn't really have an impact. But anyway, rules or rules and regulation or regulation, so that's one reason why we're moving in that direction. But the other reason is also for technical reasons, which can be quite beneficial for us actually to go in that direction.

Semantic autofocus is something that has come up along with the new AI trend. As I see it, there might be some positives around this and a fast autofocus actuator. Can you share your thoughts on this?

Yes. To be honest, we have discussed it briefly internally, and I'm not sure what this can mean, but it is a technology where they use AI to decide where to detect object and where to focus. And maybe then combining that with a very fast actuator could be beneficial. We don't know, but potentially it could have an impact, but too early to say. But anything who needs speed and fast is, of course, something if they need an actuator to follow that, then of course, we have an advantage.

So the final questions that were sent in before the presentation. Laptop was mentioned last quarter. Can you say more about how the work with the laptop customers is going, and whether the camera is aimed at the user of the laptop or at the surroundings?

Yes. So I think I mentioned, generally speaking, answered that already, but I can say that it's -- the cases we are involved in is basically in the screen in the laptop.

Can you say something about the enterprise endoscope that was launched? Is this a customer you have worked with for a long time? And how do they go for TLens in such an endoscope?

I think the best thing I can do here, first of all, it came a little bit out of the blue at least for me. And that's good, of course, that we get things out of the blue. And -- but I think the best thing that we can refer to here is actually the press release, where there was a statement from Dellon -- why they selected TLens. Remember, if you go back to that press release, I can't remember exact wording. But of course, it is all the kind of characteristic attributes with our technology, speed, robustness, constant field of view, it's the same kind of -- yes, reliability, not at least. So it's those kind of elements. And yes, so they are quite happy, and let's see. They're just releasing.

A follow-on to that, do you have any signals that they are considering TLens in other applications as well?

For that particular customer, I think there is potential, but we don't know for sure.

Final of the pre-sent questions. You have previously highlighted high organizational workload due to concurrent qualification programs. How do you assess current capacity? And are there areas where incremental investments are required ahead of commercialization?

Yes. I think I answered to that.

Yes. It's also a big question.

Yes.

Let me see we are on to the questions that have been sent in live. This first one, we have answered. It was mentioned an IRIS scanner product should have been announced around Christmas.

Yes, that's what they said, but they have not launched yet. So let's see what happens.

Lead-free TLens. Yes, this has been addressed. Okay. So here is -- there's several questions in one. A few questions pop up from time to time on investor forums. Can you answer them once and for all?

Once and for all, let's try.

So it's obviously, easy discussion.

I would say, this is only ones.

Can you confirm that TWedge production will require new production lines as the existing 2 lines cannot be used for TWedge?

Correct.

Correct. Can you elaborate on your use of top-tier consumer OEM and leading consumer OEMs? Are the terms used consistently for the same customer? So is this customer A, always call top tier and not leading sometimes? And is top tier to be considered the level above leading?

Yes. We could potentially be more accurate in our kind of classification. When we say top tier, we mean top tier, there are not many of those. Sometimes when we use leading, it may not -- it could be top tier, but it could also be just below in a way. So we could potentially be a little bit more. You are taking the role of the title of the press releases. You have to be -- are you bringing...

No, but we do use them consistently for the same OEMs. So it's...

So top tier is top tier.

Yes.

Leading may be just a little bit below, but still quite top.

Customer A will not be top...

Is that very clear?

Customer A will not be top tier once and leading another time. No, that's right.

Yes.

Is the Q Tech production line reserved for the supporting top-tier consumer OEM? Or can it equally fulfill orders from other customers?

Technically, it can, of course. But it is -- the basis for that line is related to that U.S. top-tier consumer OEM. So then we need to see the loading and the capacity we need. So there are all flexibility. If the parties agree, we can use it for anybody. But we need also to make sure that we feed the existing line at the Philippines with decent volumes before we start to dilute that into other lines. So that is something we are discussing on a weekly basis.

Now it's a bit of a market analysis here. How many units of AI glasses does poLight see in 2026, and then in 2027 to 2030. Some say 100 million units, how many are TLens or TWedge. I guess this is in general.

Yes, this is in general. But I think we should be very careful in commenting to those numbers. It's still -- I think the safest thing to say is that nobody knows. It's really an undefined volume potential. And you can go to different reports and you see different numbers, and they may all be right in a way, not at the same time. But if you go to our quarterly report last quarter, we had some slide, generic slide about the different market segments. And so there are some numbers there, and I'll refer to some reports. So please have a look at that. What you can say is that what you see now is that from very low volume, say, AI glasses, which I think is the most mature market, those volume exploded, I would say, last year and will continue to grow, and we're talking with many millions. So it's a clear trend that something is happening in this market.

This question, I mean, will TWedge still depend on a major player getting realized? So...

I think we answered that.

Yes, we did. I agree.

Yes.

So this is -- this question comes every quarter. When do you expect the company to become cash positive? And is there any possibility that this could happen unexpectedly within the next 5 months? I would say, no. Within the next 5 months, that would come as such a surprise to absolutely everyone that I think our internal analysis of cash flows would go crazy if that happened. But we have a plan towards cash positive.

Of course.

That's why we're running the company, but we have not communicated anything about when we think that will happen, because there are so many factors playing into it.

Yes.

In the report, the outlook does not include the financial outlook. That, as I just said, we don't really communicate future numbers. The uncertainty regarding those numbers is still too high to give any indications. Do you see any signs of other competitors in the AR market with usable quality? And is it actually a problem?

No, I think -- as I said, I think there will be coexisting different technologies in that market also. So everything from not using AF, meaning fixed focus, you have VCM, you have other tunable optics. So -- but I think our technology is seen as one of the, I would say, very promising technologies, but there will be others also. And no, I don't see that as a problem. It's a huge market. It will be huge.

How huge? Time will tell.

Yes. Time will tell.

The market is moving fast towards AI-driven sensors that process data locally on the chip, often going beyond the visible light spectrum. When looking at your ongoing projects for optical see-through AR glasses, are these TLens cameras being built primarily for human viewing or also for AI machine vision/AI input?

It's a good question. This is one thing which is quite frustrating when we talk to customers. They are super careful in telling us anything about their application. We really need to kind of try to ask questions from many directions to get any good answered here. But I think both. I think both sensing and mission, I think both.

You highlighted the risk of tariffs disrupting OEMs value chains and potentially slowing down the adoption of new technology. This is from a risk chapter. To what extent is this uncertainty actively impacting your current U.S. pipeline today? And are your partners asking poLight to help qualify new camera module manufacturers outside of China?

Surprisingly not. And I have asked that question for minimum 1 year now. And so far, they haven't really started any -- asking us those kind of questions. But of course, it's a very good question, and I don't know what's going to happen. I think what we need to do is just position us with our supply chain in the best, most robust way. So now we are in the Philippines. We are partly in Europe with the MEMS. We are also having an activity in China. So we are kind of a little bit spread around with the supply chain. So what we can do is to kind of make our supply chain robust against whatever is going to happen. When it comes to camera module guys, they are very concentrated in China. And there are Korea, of course. It's definitely also Korea players. There are Taiwan players, so there are options. So -- but it's very much concentrated in China. So let's see what happens. It's a little bit surprising for me actually that we haven't received that, I would say, strong request. But that may happen.

Yes. But we couldn't write the risk chapter without mentioning it. And our mitigation is asking.

Yes.

Looking at your ongoing consumer PoCs, could you give us a breakdown of how many of these projects are targeted towards optical see-through AR glasses versus video pass-through MR devices?

Yes, on top of my head, I would say, majority is optical see-through, I would say, majority is that. But there are a few video see-through also.

In the press release -- so this is today's press release for the report -- you state that operational costs will increase as you continue to invest in groundwork for future profitability. To help us understand the scale of this, could you elaborate on what specific investments you are prioritizing and how significant you expect this increase to be in the cost base in 2026? Additionally, what role do strategic partnerships play in this plan?

So I think in 2026, I will not be surprised if we leave 2026 with, say, 15 more people than we have today. I didn't say 50, I said 15. Sorry if I was unclear. But yes, so it's -- of course, that's a significant cost increase. I don't see the alternative, to be honest. But they are difficult also to find those people we need. So yes, and the cost of that is very dependent on where we place them. If you place them in the Philippines, that's one thing. If you place them in the headquarter, that's a completely different thing. Or China, for that matter, actually, China is very expensive. So yes, so that's an investment we have to take. Maybe we're not able to find 15, maybe we find 10, I don't know. But we already -- so far this year, we have committed 4, 5, something like that. Yes?

Yes.

So we are moving full speed ahead. And that was the -- what was -- there was some strategic...

What role do strategic partnerships play in the plan?

A little bit uncertain what you mean by that, to be honest. So maybe you can elaborate a little bit on that and send us a mail, and we will reply to that question.

You stated that some TLens consumer PoCs within the AR and MR segments may approach important milestones in 2026. For more clarity, are these expected milestones actual commercial volume orders and design-wins? Or are they primarily further technical validation?

It was exactly that clarification I didn't want to give. But I think it will be...

It's a good question.

Yes. That was a good question, definitely a good question, and I understand the question. But I think there are -- there should be -- in 2025, there were kind of proof that things are progressing, right? Follow-up orders, getting ready for more mature PoCs, quite high volume to be PoCs. So we have kind of proven in the 2025 that there is a good progress. In 2026, we hope that some of the cases can move towards that we can change the classification from PoC to something else. But as I said, it's highly dependent on the progress at the customer side, not kind of controlled by us at all. That's why I'm a little bit wake. But I think there will be meaningful progress in 2026 for some of the cases. Sorry for being unclear.

I think the question about cash burn going forward. This is more or less -- it relates more or less the same to the previous question about that. Competition, any new competition? Do you see metal lenses as a competing technology?

Not so far. No.

Yes, this is the same question that you didn't want to answer. So I'll ask that again. Are you working on developing a larger aperture TLens?

Two ways to answer to that. We have engineering samples of TLens Platinum, which is an aperture size of 2.2, which is being -- is on hold. Recently, last week, I had a meeting with one of the big guys, and they showed interest in also having that available. So that's a bigger one from 1.9, which is the Silver premium to Platinum 2.2. The other question to that -- or answer to that is that much bigger aperture size, then we need a different structure of the TLens. Still will be polymer between 2 glass membranes, but there will need to be a different actuation. We cannot use the current type MEMS actuation we are using. And we did a pre-study of that, which have been reported. And what I said is that this pre-study has been concluded. There are solutions, but they're quite costly. And they are also more bulky than the small TLens you know today. So we have -- we don't believe that that's a good idea for use bigger aperture like 2, 3, 4, 5 millimeters or so. It's not a good match for the consumer side, maybe industrial. But still, we are waiting before we kick off any real program because we need to see the customer demand. But of course, the TLens Platinum, that can be realized if the customer demand is high enough.

There's a sort of technical question about classification from our end. If a big OEM is going through your product in smart glasses, will the design-win come when they buy the TLens, TWedge and it's shipping? Or can it wait until the OEM has presented the smart glasses in one of their release parties?

No. So the definition of -- for our definition of design-in is that typically...

Design-win.

But let me just take the definition. The design-in is at a point in time where the customer have moving from PoC, which is technical qualification of our technology into having decided we would like to use this technology in a program with a product in mind. Then when we have that confirmation, we would normally classify it as a design-in. We have planned to be used, but not used yet. Then as I said, some of the cases we are working on now is relatively close to that. And maybe some other CEOs would claim they are design-ins, but we are careful in doing that. We want to be 100% sure. Design-in, then that is a part and a component in a part of the program, a product development at the customer site. When that customer have -- but anything can happen in that design phase. They may not work, they may cancel the program for other strategic reasons -- which we have seen before -- or they decide to kind of remove it for cost reasons. So many things can happen in the design-in phase far from given. Of course, an important milestone. When they have said froze everything, that's it. This is the design. This is the product, and they have a mass production plan and they're starting to kind of communicate release, that's when we say design-win.

It's encouraging to see TWedge maturing. Since TWedge is a much newer innovation than TLens, how much longer patent protection does poLight have for TWedge compared to TLens?

We are continuously working on trying to protect both TLens, extending the lifetime of TLens IP and also TWedge. We are recently sending new patents last couple of weeks ago about TWedge. So we try as good as we can to protect. Even though the oldest patent is kind of having a lifetime, which is relatively close to expiring. We are filling around with incremental kind of IP, so that we inefficiently -- in effect, prolong their life protection. We spend a lot of money on IP, by the way.

Approximately 70% of the quarter revenues were generated in AR/MR. Was AR/MR similarly dominant for the full year? And should we expect a similar AR/MR revenue mix in the coming quarters?

That's difficult to say. I think that if we are successful in our strategy, I think, yes, it will be very, very important. It could be quarter-by-quarter variations. Now we are writing the annual reports. So you will see the numbers for the year there. But I think it will vary quarter-by-quarter. But long-term, I think AR/MR will be one of the main driver for us.

I noticed that SnkeXR has been quite active on LinkedIn regarding their AR headset. Have you received any feedback from Snke about potential customer response or how the market has reacted so far?

No, I've seen they are quite active on LinkedIn, but we don't know the details there. They are still, I think, in the relatively early days. We actually -- I think we're going to receive a unit for our testing. So -- but my impression is that they are engaging and have positive feedback, but we don't know the details.

This is slightly covered, but it refers to the report. So in Q1 '24, you stated that as far as you knew, the TLens autofocus solution was the only autofocus technology used in AR/MR devices. Has this changed now given that you mentioned in the presentation the various autofocus solutions will be used in AR/MR, depending on specifications and cost sensitivity?

Yes. I'm unsure whether there is -- will likely -- because there are many players out there, and there will likely -- there will for sure be other technologies for sure. Whether there are -- there may be a few, but I'm not sure how many, but it could be a few. But as I said, we are still, I think, one of the leading also when it comes to design wins. I'm thinking is there anybody out there with it should be probably a couple of VCM solutions, I would believe. But for future, I'm sure. Why I'm saying that is that when we discuss with customers, we know that they're also doing other things, and we know somebody is using kind of other technology for cost reason and because it's easier to implement because they already have the smartphone ecosystem. So that's why we say it that we should be prudent, but there will be other players out there. The most advanced people we talk to kind of feels -- it feels like for us that they put a priority on TLens. That's what we feel. But I'm sure they also explore other things.

So this is a question, but this is part of this, but I think it's...

Soon 10:30.

Soon 10:30. There's not that many questions left.

Okay.

For both, could you please elaborate on how come R&D have high costs when the company at the same time establishes high revenue and establish momentum? And then some specific costs about employee benefit increase with NOK 2 million and other operating expenses, which have also increased around NOK 2.5 million. I'm not sure if that refers only to R&D. But what we can say is, first is that although this is record high revenue for poLight, it's not high revenue. It's quite far from high revenue at the moment. And the R&D programs, we have the lead-free program. We have -- the MLens is continuing. We have the TWedge program. We have lots and lots of customer interactions with our R&D employees. So the R&D department is a like the beating heart of poLight, and those costs will remain high in the R&D.

Yes. And some of the R&D costs, which is there is also external costs.

Yes. So yes, some is NRE external. Yes.

Yes.

If you want more detailed breakdown of -- we'll not take that in this Q&A, but you can write an e-mail, we can do a proper analysis of it. Given the high activity levels and that operating expenses are expected to increase in 2026, how should we think about the scale and main drivers of those increases?

Yes, I think we answered that partly when it comes to headcount at least.

Yes. Mostly headcount.

Then also, it will be the external cost of R&D, because we work with R&D and partners will also continue to be quite sizable in 2026, due to the TWedge, due to the TLens, due to also TWedge and lead-free TLens will need a new driver. So we're also going to kick off a driver program. So there will be quite an extensive external cost also in 2026.

You were referring to possible design-ins during the year in AR/MR.

Did I say that? As said meaningful progress or something. It's a trick question.

This is regarding what you just said, could we get -- would a design-in get a press release? That's a question.

Okay. It depends. Depends. Yes. I think if you get one of the things into that level, I think it will deserve a press release or we make a big fuss about it in the quarterly report. But I think it's likely that there will be a press release, yes.

I think this is quite a big...

[ Fleming ] is claiming we're forgetting his questions.

Yes, no, we didn't.

All we did, okay.

But he does encourage us to keep maybe a 6-month forecast. And that's obviously something when we will start communicating a forecast, a financial forecast, that's a discussion topic here all the time.

But having said that, we are not lacking yearly forecast until 2030 something. And that is -- when we discuss strategy with the Board, that is a fundamental part of information, of course. And when we do huge investments now in the company, it's not because it's not an attractive forecast. It's because it's a very attractive forecast. And so it's not that we don't have those forecasts, but we have been saying for so far and as CFO said, of course, there are still kind of uncertainty, and we would like to mature more before we start to communicate those targets. But what I can rest assure and what I can -- we have a very clear strategy and very clear targets, which we try to achieve. And we have a good development in 2025 compared to 2024. We hope that continue to develop that way. Over time, we will also be very profitable and very high cash flow. But we don't want to be more concrete at the moment. I understand that, that's an interesting discussion and information. But what I can say, we have it and we execute according to it.

There's a couple of questions here. Can you please elaborate on why it's important to have more employees? You've already hired a lot, but mass orders remain? And are there any cost-saving initiatives? I think we could say that poLight at the moment is at an extremely interesting inflection point. It has -- we have a position that is unique. And any investment we do now is to capitalize fully on that opportunity. And to start saving costs at this point in time would be one of the famous where you sort of stumble on the way to the goal.

Yes. You can say actually, if we continue at this pace with this organization, we will fail, we will do many mistakes. So adding resources will optimize the success and minimize the kind of mistakes we do. So you can say -- you can spin it positively say that actually, we are saving by doing what we're doing. And as you said, Joakim, we are also -- this is the way to capitalize on the opportunities we see. I think you should see it positively that the Board and the management is willing to invest to bring this company to where it belongs. And we have shown you a good progress lately, and we will continue that progress.

We do not believe that any investors have invested in poLight for NOK 20 million revenues.

No.

We can have one final question. I think this is about other tunable optics solutions. I think that answer may be too long.

No, no. let's go. We can take it quick.

Okay.

So other tunable optics.

Which other tunable optics solutions exist? And how do they differ compared to yours?

So liquid lenses, and there are different players having a liquid lens, and then you have liquid crystal. Liquid lens, the advantage for that is that they can easier adapt to bigger aperture, bigger image sensor, and also they can easier to get more optical power. Optical quality, power consumption, compactness, we are outstanding. But we may not be as good to have big aperture and high optical power. But optical quality, power consumption, speed, super, super.

We can take this as a final question because this is an area that doesn't get a lot of attention. Speaking of the new ASIC driver development, is this a contract with external consultants? Or do you have internal expertise on this? If it's not internal, do you have plans to bring that in-house? Or would that be too costly for something that's just adjacent to the main business?

Yes. We were highly rely on partners for the existing PD50 we have. That is done together with the partners and the same will this be. Of course, we have some in-house competence, but not enough to bring that along to -- we typically we specify what we want to design houses, and they will execute for us.

So let's close off with a good word from Fleming. Finally, very happy about the progress, the success, well executed by the entire team of poLight. And stand behind that.

Yes. Thanks, Fleming. Thanks. Is there any last minute question from the audience? Yes, we have one. Wow, we have one.

This is rare.

So as the interest in poLight rises, are you getting questions from other camera module makers backed by their own OEMs that want the same arrangement as you have with Q Tech regarding own production line and so on?

I would say, we have more interest, but I wouldn't say that we have anything today a discussion related -- concrete discussion related to building a production at their facilities. Having said that, last meeting I had with one of the big camera module guys, this relationship to Q Tech was brought up, as they could potentially see as a pain point. And then we said to them, you know, if you're afraid of that, why don't you do something similar? So it's something we are completely open to do. But of course, it's a very demanding task for us to bring up a new line with the limited resources we have now. Now we see already now we are so stretched by the key resources, which is operating or responsible, I shouldn't say operating, but responsible for the line in the Philippines, now also have to kind of be diluted into the Q Tech line. If you're going to do another one on top of that, I think they will kill me. So even though as a sales guy, I'm offering that. But so far, we haven't started anything, and I don't think we have the capacity to do it either. Okay. Super. Thank you for coming to this quarterly presentation. Thanks to all of you for asking questions. It was a lot today.

Yes. It was always a lot, but we have very good questions.

This was a lot, a lot. So that's good. That makes the presentation more dynamic and more interesting, and we answer to what you would like to hear. You should be aware that there is this portal in Investor web.

Investor web Q&A on Monday, yes.

Q&A. Which -- yes, there is the Q&A on Monday. So if there exists no question, I don't know, but there is a Q&A on Monday with the Investor web. But also my point was Investor web, they also have this portal where you can ask questions and we reply, meaning questions. We often get a question directly our e-mail, and that's also fine, but it's even better if you do use that portal everybody see and they see the question and they see the reply. Super. Thank you, and thanks for you participating on the web, if there's anybody there. And see you next quarter, Q1 in April, is it?

Yes. When you're back in Norway.

When I'm back in Norway. Thank you. Bye.