PNB Housing Finance Limited (PNBHOUSING) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Ladies and gentlemen, good day, and welcome to the PNB Housing Finance Limited Q4 and Financial Year 2021 Earnings Conference Call. [Operator Instructions] Please note that this conference is being recorded. I now hand the conference over to Ms. Deepika Gupta Padhi. Thank you, and over to you, ma'am.

Thank you, Sasan. Good morning and welcome, everyone. I hope you all are doing good. You are safe and healthy. We are here to discuss PNB Housing Finance Q4 and Financial Year 2021 Results. You must have seen our business and financial numbers in the presentation and the press release that we shared with the Indian stock exchanges. And it's also available on our website, which is pnbhousing.com. With me, we have our management team represented by Mr. Hardayal Prasad, Managing Director and CEO; Mr. Ajay Gupta, ED and Chief Credit Officer; Mr. Kapish Jain, Chief Financial Officer; Mr. Anshul Bhargava, Chief People Officer; Mr. Nitant Desai, Chief Centralized Operations and Technology Officer; Mr. Sanjay Jain, Company Secretary and Head of Compliance; Mr. Rajan Suri, Business Head, Retail; Mr. Jati Anal, Credit Head for Retail; Neeraj Manchanda, Chief Risk Officer; and Mr. Saurabh Suri, who is Head of our Remedial Management Group. We will begin this call with the performance update by the Managing Director and CEO, followed by an interactive Q&A session. Please note, this call may contain forward-looking statements, which exemplify our judgment and future expectations concerning the development of our business. These forward-looking statements involve risks and uncertainties that may cause actual development and results to differ materially from our expectations. PNB Housing Finance undertakes no obligation to publicly revise any forward-looking statements to reflect future events or circumstances. A detailed disclaimer is in our investor presentation. With that, I will now hand over the call to Mr. Hardayal Prasad. Over to you, sir.

Thank you, Deepika and Sasan. Good morning, everyone, and welcome to our Q4 and financial year '21 results. On behalf of PNB HFL, I extend each one of you a very warm welcome. Thank you for joining us in the call in the early morning today. I'm sure that it must have been a challenge. Considering the spurt of the COVID cases, we all are actually talking to you from our homes. And I hope that you and your families are safe and taking, too, the precautions from COVID's second wave. Stay healthy. Stay safe. To start with, I would like to appraise you on the strategic priorities laid out by the company during the last quarter and presented to you. As I had mentioned in the last quarter, that we will share the monitorables under each focus area. This time, we have shared the same, and we will keep on updating the progress against them every quarter. These are important vectors that will help the company to achieve its overall strategic goal of a profitable and growing housing finance company. To start with our human capital. The company is in the process of further strengthening its management team through internal promotions and external hires, as required, for the execution of strategic priorities mentioned earlier, which are: the business growth, including Unnati segment; focus on digital initiatives; advanced analytics; cost savings, et cetera. During the year, the company hired Head of Collections, Chief Information and Security Officer, internal auditors and Head of FP&A. We are reconfiguring our retail and corporate risk management function. The current ED, Chief Credit Officer and the Chief People Officer are moving on from the company. With a CRO already in place, the company has also initiated the process of hiring a Chief People Officer. The company has already hired a senior person through the strategic transformation, a project called Ignite, for which the company has hired a consultant also, as advised earlier. On the property, PNB, the promoter of the company, informed PNB HFL on February 19, '21, regarding its inability to participate in fund raise. However, it was also advised that the company should continue with the capital base plan, which was inevitable. The company initiated the process of evaluating multiple options for the capital base. However, due to the silent period, it could not conclude this process. A capital raise is being considered primarily to reduce leverage and accelerate the growth, especially in segments such as self-employed and affordable housing loans like Unnati, where the company has developed strong niche in terms of distribution network, underwriting capabilities and servicing. Our CRAR as on 31 March 2021 is comfortable at 18.73%. In the last meeting, we also spoke about the advanced analytics. And with the advanced analytics across functions, we are integrating everything so that our digital journey is seamless. The company has strengthened its underwriting and collection team and added external vendors to enhance its reach on the ground. The collection efficiency for retail books stood at 98.2% for the quarter ended March '21. On the corporate accounts, the remedial management group is relentlessly working towards accelerating resolution of corporate accounts. The company resolved 3 large accounts during the year with nil haircuts. The company has seen significant resolutions in the corporate book, NPA accounts, including a large NPA account. As a prudent measure, the company carries 14% provision on the loan assets in the corporate book with coverage ratio of 60% in Stage 3 accounts. During FY '21, the company sold and received accelerated payments of approximately INR 1,880 crores. The corporate book has de-grown by 19% in absolute terms over the last 1 year and 34% in absolute terms in the last 2 years and stood at INR 11,786 crores, which is approximately 16% of the AUM as of 31 March 2021. Over the last few months, we have undertaken various initiatives in the digital space to enhance productivities and bring in cost efficiencies in the system. As part of the transformation, the company introduced Ace, our online sales platform, in October '20. The company see -- has seen an increasing trend in the digital models through Ace from 2% in October '20 to 28% in March. Going forward, the company will ensure that everything is seamlessly integrated [ later ] to the collection stage. As a retail focus for our housing finance company, we will leverage our expertise in self-employed and mass housing, especially Unnati. The Unnati book contributed to 10% of the individual housing loan disbursements. The company remains excited about the co-lending opportunity for which it has tied up with the bank and is looking forward to good opportunities emanating from there. The GNPA of the company stood at 4.4% as on 31st March on loan asset basis. Retail GNPA stood at 2.52% and corporate GNP at 12.65%. Higher delinquencies on account of COVID-19 disruptions and de-growth in the overall portfolio resulted in increase in GNPA during the years. The company has made adequate provisions in the book, and our total provisions to total asset is at 4.09%. Talking about the liabilities. The company is seeing a downward trajectory in the cost of borrowings quarter-on-quarter. The company during the financial year has worked aggressively on seeking and renegotiating its higher cost of borrowings. The incremental cost of borrowings for FY '21 stood at 6.8%, registering a decline of 167 basis points versus FY '20. If you look at the financial performance, the profit has gone up as against the net loss in last year. The spread, net interest margin, the gross margin, all these have shown a positive trend. As we go forward, I would like to open the floor for questions and answers. And the whole management team is sitting over here to respond to you directly as you ask these questions. Thank you very much, and you are welcome to ask questions from us.

[Operator Instructions] The first question is from the line of Amit Ganatra from HDFC Mutual Fund.

A couple of questions from my end. One is that in note 2 accounts, there is some disclosure about the restructuring. It's mentioned as personal loans restructuring. Can you clarify what this restructuring relates to? That is my first question. The second question is on -- can you also provide information on full year gross slippages? How do they compare to previous years and the recoveries and upgrades during the year? So these are my 2 questions, sir.

Neeraj or Ajay?

Yes. On the restructuring personal loan, these are the COVID restructuring under the RBI's framework, the guidelines which both came out of the RBI. And the personal loans are basically [indiscernible] with the retail loan.

These are secured housing loans or these are actually personal loans?

We -- our entire portfolio is secured. We don't have any unsecured portfolio. It's all retail loans, home loans and LAP joined together.

Okay. So INR 1,000-odd crores restructuring has been done?

It is at INR 1,386 crores of the restructuring that has been done in the retail side.

INR 1,300 crores, okay. And the second question, about the...

Can you please repeat the second question?

The second question was the [indiscernible] is during the year, how do they compare it to previous year and the recoveries and upgrades?

The MD has already talked about that due to the COVID implications, there is a rise in delinquency. Our delinquency NPA levels have increased. We are at 2.5% of the NPA in the retail book. And in the wholesale -- in the corporate side also, our NPL rate is 12.65%. In terms of recoveries, there has been a significant improvement. We have seen a positive traction in movement in our retail and corporate book in the last quarter. The collections efficiencies have increased significantly. As MD talked about, we have resolved 2 large ticket accounts also during the last quarter.

No data you are not able to share right now?

Sorry? Flow of data.

Yes. The flow of -- generally, I mean, that is available in the annual report anyway. Hello?

Hello.

Yes. So flow of data, you are not able to share, the flow of slippages, how do they compare to last year?

See, as I told you, there has been slippages. But during -- in the last quarter, there was a very, very positive traction in the collection efficiencies also. Your voice is actually [ keep breaking ].

No. No. So I understand that. But I just want to compare that how this flow is as compared to previous year.

Yes. I think what you want is what are the additions to NPA and what are the resolutions to NPA and, hence, how -- the provision of net NPA at the close of the financial year.

Correct.

I think we don't have it right now with us in that format. We will share that post-earning call by way of circulation, the additions and the resolutions with that. What Neeraj is saying is overall, the resolutions rates are looking good, particularly in quarter 4. And in -- within quarter 4 also, the effect of the March number has given a lot of confidence to the company that we are back on the track, particularly in the corporate book. If you look at stage 2 and Stage 3 number, like Stage 3 has remained static. stage 2, there is a significant improvement from the previous quarters and previous year. We have only 2% on DPD basis, only 2% of portfolio in stage 2. So we will share the net additions and substraction of NPAs, that walk-through of NPA by a separate circulation.

And can I ask one more question?

Please.

Or should I come up -- follow up in the queue later on?

You can ask, please.

Okay. Whatever disbursement that you did during the fourth quarter, if we exclude the disbursement done for affordable housing loans, what would be the average yield at which these disbursements would have been done?

Yes. Yes. So the average yield for our disbursement is INR 9.22 crores -- 9.22% in retail.

This excludes the Unnati loans?

Yes. This excludes the Unnati loans.

But then my question is that, generally, right now, prime housing loans are being done at around 7-odd percent. If your average yields are still 9.22%, what kind of customer segment are we catering to? And what kind of asset quality risk then further -- I mean, exposures to?

So if I give you a breakup, if -- you understand that it's our average yield. So if you see our salaried home loan yield, it is at 8.70%, okay? And if you see our self-employed yield, we're at 9.17%. So total home loan yields are 8.86%. So our -- so that is -- our 8.86% is our home loan yield. And the LAP yield is 10.05%. So averaged out, it becomes 9.22%. So it includes LAP also. So if you see, we are catering to mass housing, as I pointed out. And that's our forte. And we are moving in a segment where we are doing majorly loans up to INR 30 lakhs. And yes, we are not diluting on any of our norms for that matter. Our CIBIL Score, if you see, most of the business happens above the CIBIL Score of 750. So rest assured that we are not diluting on any of the norms on -- so we are maintaining the quality as far as sourcing is concerned. And the directing [indiscernible] that as it is, where we are. So we have no dilution on that point.

I think responding to you, the incremental business of the leading banks is coming at that level. However, we also have our own strong strengths, where we are able to deliver. And our interest rates have always been different than the interest rates of some of the leading banks. So today, what we are talking about 7% prime and all that, we still have prime borrowers, but our interest rates have always remained a little over the lease that some of the banks have been quoting because of the CASA advantages and other things. It's not just the cost -- the rate at which a customer comes. There are a lot of other things that go in terms of the servicing, client efficiency and other things.

And a further response -- okay.

Mr. Ganatra, does that answer your question?

Yes. Yes.

The next question is from the line of Abhijit Tibrewal from Reliance Securities.

My question is around your corporate book. So if we look at your last quarter reported GNPA, obviously, they were pro forma numbers. But it seems like there has been a slippage of about INR 300 crores to INR 400 crores during H2 of the last financial year. Can you talk about the corporate accounts which has left?

Saraubh? Yes. So if you look at the numbers last reported, we had -- there were pro forma NPAs, and we have not given staging of pro forma NPAs between retail and corporate. So there has not been major slippages. Those percentage do not sound right because they are -- basically, they are on reducing book. But there has not been a major slippage in there. I think there's just one account which has got slipped between Q3 and Q4. Otherwise, we've been able to hold on to rest of the slippages and actually pulled them back to stage 1.

Okay. And what was the quantum of this account that slipped during Q4, around INR 300 crores to INR 400 crores?

No. It's about INR 150-odd crores.

Then I mean, how does it, I mean, kind of explain that your absolute corporate GNPA, this was about INR 1,200 crores as on Q4 last year, has moved to about INR 1,500 crores in Q4 this year?

Because I'm assuming resolutions. There have been resolutions as well in the corporate side so -- accounting for those as well. So the net effect basically is a movement of 14 odd -- so we are INR 1,089 crores as on 31st March 2020. And we moved to INR 1,490 crores as on 31st March 2021.

Right, which is INR 400 crores.

Which is INR 400 crores. So we've been -- there were pro forma NPAs, which were being reported because of the Supreme Court embargo. And after that -- so that was basically split into corporate and retail. So there was forward flows in that. So you're talking about -- so there is INR 400 crores of your slippages overall in the year. I was talking about this financial quarter.

So even if you kind of compare what -- I mean, year-over-year, right, there have been about INR 300 crores of additions to your corporate GNPA.

Correct. There have been.

Yes. So INR 150 crores likely suggests there was an account that slipped, I think, in Q4. The remaining INR 150 crores was another account that slipped during Q3?

During Q3. So that's one of the difference. Just minute. So you're right, from March '20 to March '21, there is a delta of INR 291 crore. So this INR 291 crore is also net of resolutions made during the year. Cumulatively, it will be little -- additions will be a little larger to about INR 400 crores kind of a number, which sort of I mentioned. So there are 2 accounts or 3 accounts which have slipped from March '20 to March '21.

Okay. Okay. And sir, I mean, you have not provided details of new accounts for -- I mean, in your presentation deck, you actually provided a slide wherein you give out the corporate book remedial actions, the resolutions that you have achieved. But I don't see mention of any new accounts there. I think the pull -- I think last slippage Q4 of FY '20 is the one which has continued to remain there. I don't see any new additions to corporate on your presentation deck.

Yes. So the presentation in the corporate portion, we have shown the resolutions which are underway, the new slippages which have happened in Q3 or Q4. And the team is working on it. And I think give us some time, we will also come out with the resolution plan for those accounts as well. The plans are already being wound upon. I think this is a little premature to show what are the concrete steps we are taking. I think in the next quarter or quarter after then, we will disclose what are the resolution plan for the incremental accounts also.

Okay. And sir, in the interest of time, I mean, just one last question. So every Q4, you kind of give out disclosures on some voluntary SICR that you have kind of identified. So if I recall correctly, last year, you had identified in your corporate book something around INR 400 crores. And in this year, you have identified another INR 900 crores. So what is the status of the -- those corporate accounts which you identified under SICR in Q4 of last year? I mean, have they been upgraded to stage 1? Or they kind of continued to remain there in SICR? And just one last question. I mean, on -- one last question on your OpEx. I mean, a sudden charge price in your OpEx during the quarter despite no branch additions, I think -- I mean, how do you explain this volatility both in your operating expenses and your other OpEx?

So I'll answer the first question. First question, basically you're saying on SICR, SICR, just want to make correction, it is not INR 900 crores. It is INR 875 crores, 5 accounts which management has identified where there is a significant increase in the credit rate. Now the value between the large SICR and the midsized SICR level, whether -- the risk is certified in the cases which we have identified in majority of those cases. And most cases, 1 or case, we have either carried forward into the new pool of SICR, INR 875 crores, or they are part of stage 2. So SICR has a natural result of -- on DPD basis, the account moved into stage 2, we don't classify that as SICR. SICR technically means a stage 1 account, which is -- for the risk associated with it. We push it to stage 2. If there is a natural transition because of DPD into stage 2, then it loses the color of SICR. The growth is certified, right? So the cumulative of previous years this year, we have identified INR 875 crores, which is -- which we have shown in part of SICR for closing March '21 number. And the INR 400 crore incremental number, which Saurabh just mentioned, also include SICR of the previous -- last financial year.

Sure. Sure. And on the OpEx bit?

Yes. This is Kapish here. On the OpEx, we have been tight on our OpEx, and we're making sure that we are very diligent on our spend as well. The only reason why the OpEx -- you're seeing a margin increase in this quarter is in line with our conservative approach to provisioning for our assets. We've also done provisioning for the stock of acquired assets that we have through [ safety ] and other measures. And on them, we have done additional provisioning of around INR 25 crores, which is adding up to the overall operating expenses when we do our disclosures. So we have our business expenses, but we have more around provisioning that we have added up, in line with the way the market is.

All right. Kapish, just one last thing. So that issue, can you also talk about the write -- little higher write-offs and other things?

So write-off is separate, but this is more on the line of disclosures that we have done in the operating expenses, yes.

So this provisioning on the [ total ] assets is reflected in your other operating expenses?

Yes. Yes. Correct.

Okay. And the write-offs that I was talking about was broadly about, what, INR 100 crores during the quarter?

The write-off for full year is around INR 83 crore. For the quarter, it is INR 50 crores. So again, we look at our vintage assets that we hold, and we're sort of cleaning our asset book while we continue to strike them more specifically and separately as well. But the vintage assets is something that we wrote off this quarter as well, which was around [ INR 79 crores this quarter ].

The next question is from the line of Nidhesh Jain from Investec.

Sir, firstly, what explains sequential decline in Tier 1 ratio for us?

Okay. So what happened was our Tier 1 ratio is actually 20.0%. But then at the year-end, we actually did a deposit investment in our parent company as [indiscernible] transaction. And then -- so if you do a deposit with our company in the same group, that 10% beyond your Tier 1 gets deducted from the overall own fund. And therefore, the capital adequacy is appearing lower. Adjusted for the same, had we done this deposit with somebody else, the Tier 1 -- the overall capital adequacy would have been 20.7% -- 20.6%, to be precise. Otherwise, even if -- you see the gearing has also come down from 7.3 to 6.7. So overall capital adequacy would have only improved.

Sure. And what is the outlook on asset quality both in retail and corporate going into FY '22? As I see, we have already made -- we have been making -- strengthening our provisioning for last 5, 6 quarters. And every quarter, we are having very high -- visibly high credit cost. So do we expect similar sort of trend to continue into FY '22? Or what is the outlook there?

Do you want to, Neeraj?

Yes. Yes. See, the last year, see, the company is following a very, very conservative approach in its provisioning policy. And we have noticed that this time, we have incrementally been providing around INR 778 crores additional provision for the financial year '21. Now looking at the last year and going forward, we see a substantial improvement in the kind of a scenario and environment we are operating. Lastly, we were not having any challenge or resolution through a legal means. All of the recoveries were done manually, reaching out to customer. So this makes -- this made us -- our recovery very difficult, but we see a lot of optimism. We are cautiously optimistic given the kind of a scenario that are emerging that we are facing. And we are very, very certain, very, very positive that buying forward flows will not be that higher, but it was in the last year. And my resolution rates for the NPA would be far better than what we had experienced last year. Coming on to the corporate side, we have resolved this tough time 2, 3 big, big accounts now and that, too, in the COVID times. There's a very good traction which we have measured in the last 6, 7 months with the developer community, and we are very hopeful of those resolutions. But yes, it is taking time. It has their own processes. And we are very, very hopeful that in the next year, those positive reports will come out. On the provisioning part, we don't see that aggressive provisioning will be required. We have provided adequate provision, 14% of the provisions. And for overall at the book, we have a 4% provision. The retail is around 1.78%, and the corporate is around 14%. That's good enough to meet any unexpected shock which we are facing. However, we are keeping our finger crossed. We are praying that this COVID emerging wave should be very, very brief. And we are cautiously optimistic. Having said that, we are -- we have a good enough coverage to meet any unexpected shocks on that side also.

Yes. So just to supplement, if you look at our corporate book, 83% of corporate book today is 0 DPD, right? And even if I add stage 2, it is 2%. So 85% both is out of -- on DPD basis, out of [indiscernible] 13% which is NPA. And we have identified 7% of growth, which is INR 800-odd crore as SICR. So we have a very good traction on corporate book. One of the large accounts, which [indiscernible] mentioned in the opening statement, is -- will get resolved in Q1 or maybe in July at the outset. So this will give a very huge -- a INR 350-odd crore between NPA pool. Now coming to retail, the collection efficiencies have improved. The overall collection efficiencies have actually reached the pre-COVID level. We are now at 98.3%. And pre-COVID level, we were at 98.5%, 98.75% kind of a percentage. The collection efficiency is giving a lot of confidence to us that we are on the right track. Now even if I see average resolution rates for bucket 1, 2, 3, which is basically pre-NPA kind of a number -- buckets, we have seen substantial improvement there also. So it is close to 86%, 86.5% average resolution percent. It was about -- pre-COVID, it was about 87%. So we are almost there. We have identified a pool of INR 3,500-odd crores. We have -- the team is also -- which is basically a moratorium tool, which is -- which team is doing a lot of traction in terms of resolution, et cetera. So net-net, we have identified where the problem is, and we have resolution plans to address those problems. Now to your overarching question that how the performance will look like for the next financial year, these inputs will give a lot of confidence -- is giving a lot of confidence to us. The portfolio will serve its mettle, and we will see improvement there. However, to further quantify, I think it is a little too premature to assess COVID-19 second wave, its impact on overall performance of HFC. But as I mentioned from the recent past, we have confidence that we will be able to weather this unknown pandemic.

Sir, last question is on -- also on credit rating upgrade and cost of funds. So we have done significant deleveraging in the last 2 years. There has been a significant reduction in gearing. Tier 1 has improved, and I can see that the balance sheet has also been strengthened with the very high provisions of -- that we are having on our balance sheet. So what is the commentary that we are getting or what is the interaction with credit rating agencies? What is the pushback that we are getting for a credit rating upgrade at this point?

The credit rating agencies look at a lot of vectors. Some of the vectors are extremely favorable, and they always look at the trend. And they wait for the things to happen. Plus COVID -- where you had COVID and then you have this COVID second -- things were improving. You look at the collection efficiency. You look at the numbers that we built in quarter 4. So we're also very positive that's actually very clear guidance on whether the [indiscernible] overall feed was coming, that things should improve. However, these things keep on changing very, very fast, and rating agencies look at a lot of things. If you really look at the rating rationales that come out, one of the most important things, that is what is our legacy, and I think that comes out very, very strongly. We're the second largest of the public central bank, PNB as our promoter. The resource -- the kind of fundraising that we do is strong. We're very, very strong on that issue. And that comes out very, very favorably in terms of that. The availability of brand, which is something important, is again a very important thing. These are actually all pluses that you -- if you look at it. However, there are a lot of other things also that they look at it. Obviously, you have been raising the issue about -- on the asset quality. We will wait for it. They are seeing traction. So we are waiting for the asset quality to improve, but there are risks. They are likely to watch on it. Obviously, all this leads to the profitability, which is again one of the most important things. The liquidity, again, remains strong for us. We have ensured and we have been able to renegotiate on all -- with all our members. I think overall, if you look at it, these are some of the important things that one looks at it. We remain continuously engaged with the rating agencies, and we continuously give them that comfort that the company has solid and good control over what it has [indiscernible]. That's work in progress. And as we move forward, things will improve. Some of the things that are likely to happen in terms of the resolutions that we are doing, in terms of the collection that we are doing, in terms of digitization, in terms of the improvement in the business that we have done, I'm sure that all this will be recognized. And going forward, whenever the reviews are coming in, they might think after maybe 6 months' time that the company has demonstrated, and we will be more than happy in case there are positive actions that are taken over there.

And sir, any concern on the capital base from the rating agencies? So is it required despite that the gearing has come down quite significantly? Do you think the capital base is required?

We are continuously talking about them and telling them that both these things are very good in terms of the gearing and the CRAR also. We've also spoken to the regulators that when you stick to this 12% gearing, which is acceptable to you, the rating agencies have been actually asking for lower. However, we have continued to build on both these things. And if you look from March '20 to March '21, both of them have actually made significant progress. This is what we will continue to do. We are mindful of the fact of what the regulator said, similarly mindful of the fact that the analysts and the rating agencies talk to us. So right now, we have the things that are doing pretty well in terms of all these vectors. And we remain totally committed towards the growth that can come in because of these things, especially on the affordable housing side on that -- in particular.

[Operator Instructions] The next question is from the line of Aashiesh Agarwaal from Pareto Capital.

So actually, I had one question and one clarification. So the question was, you have mentioned about the quarterly movement of pro forma GNPA to the actual reported GNPA from quarter 3 to quarter 4. And I think you've also given the breakup of retail and corporate GNPA moving from FY '20 to FY '21. If you could give some sense on how the breakup is for retail pro forma NPA to current reported NPA from Q3 to Q4. That was one.

Ajay, if you can, or Neeraj?

See -- Nitant Desai. See, in terms of the pro forma NPA, for quarter 3 to quarter 4, we have got in the pro forma NPA some devolutions also. And it was -- in the retail side, we were having the NPA [ roughly around ] INR 1,500 crore, INR 1,400 crore, which [ stood at ] INR 1,271 crore. So these were the resolutions in the retail side.

And just one question, again, more on sort of a clarification. You didn't about it, but there was some network issue. The current trends that you're seeing as of the current month so far, in terms of sanctions, inquiries and collection efficiency. That's all from my side.

Hardayal, request if you can answer? Collection...

Collection efficiency, as I mentioned, has gone to 98.3%. This is average of the last 3 months, and it is -- it has reached close to 99% in the month of March. So then in Q4 also, we see the collection efficiencies are improving -- have improved actually, and we expect this to continue for the years -- for the next few quarters also. Similarly, average resolution rate, which I mentioned, about 86.5% average resolution of bucket 1, 2, 3. There also, we see traction. And within Q4, March number is higher than the average of 3 months.

That's correct, sir. I think you've given the March numbers in the presentation also. I saw that. I was actually looking for any sense on what's happening in April month because, I mean, the wave has really hit us harder in the month of April. Till March, things are like still under good control.

Yes. So March, still, we had -- we are in [ 28 ], and the collection team is working on it. If I see a lead indicator which is a bounce rate, which was -- [ we may experience ] close to 5.96%, thankfully, our cycle date is fixed and tends -- majority of presentation happen on 99 -- 90% of presentation happened on April 10. And it was the significant -- this thing of the COVID scenario which has built up. So actually, the bounce rate has improved for April also, and the team is working on the collection. Yes, there is an impact of field collection, but we are keeping good control. I think April, we should be able to still match March collection efficiency numbers.

And around disbursements, current trends or sanction?

Yes. So disbursements are -- is moving in a right direction, and we were seeing an increasing trend after the month of August. We saw that the numbers are moving, and it was a number we were -- good thing that we saw the number moving. If you see the numbers trending from quarter 1 from INR 694 crores, it grew to INR 4,103 crores. And the month of March, we closed with a disbursement number of INR 1,560 crores, which itself was a number -- and if you see Q-on-Q4, it was a 50% increase over the Q4-to-Q4 numbers. So that's -- the way, number trend was looking very healthy. Now with the spend that will be coming in, I think we have to restart our engine. So that's about it.

Responding to a few of your questions, which are very pertinent, the kind of traction that we saw both on collection and -- discontinued in April also. Up to 15, there was no issue, and we did pretty well in terms of that. Since then, you have seen partial lockdown across India. Some of the cities are close. Some of -- we have been monitoring every state by state, and we have realized that there are certain centers which are open. It's only the 9 states which are badly affected, which have contributed to severe number of COVID cases also. So we see that there is some amount of traction that is happening. But I think overall with the lockdown, there is going to be a little bit of an issue in April. I don't think that one should really look at it, what is the number that is going to be in April. It's a question of how quickly you can bounce back. The COVID has taught us what we needed to do in quarter 3 and quarter 4 and how we need to actually adjust to our strategy. I think we have done that pretty well, and we will continue to push that to see to it that the moment that our normalcy returns. Hopefully, I think the peak should take place in the next 7, 8 days. We will come back and we will demonstrate once again that the collection efficiency as well as on the disbursement and acquisition strategy that year, especially the digital acquisition strategy, the digital collection strategy, they come in good stead to the company. Thank you.

The next question is from the line of Kunal Shah from ICICI Securities.

Just want to understand more on the stage 2 part. So particularly on the corporate side, how is the flow on the stage 2? Are these like the newer assets or -- maybe last year also, we saw almost INR 1,000-odd crores. It's still continuing at INR 1,200-odd crores of stage 2 in the corporate pool. So how much -- should we be worried about this stage 2 flowing into Stage 3? And same way on the -- maybe even -- so is this INR 875 crore included in the stage 2 assets and we should see the positive trajectory out there? So that was the first question, yes.

So the answer is 2 part. So our stage 2 today is actually just 2-odd percent. The SICR, which is actually stage 1 today, is something that we've identified and classified as stage 2 today. So that we can -- we are seeing a significant increase in credit risk in those accounts. And we are very, very forthcoming. We come and say that these will -- these are stage 2 accounts for us, and we provide for them. And at the same time, we are working very closely to resolve the issues underlying those accounts. So we are very forthcoming in saying that the stage 2 is very minimal at 2% today. But the stage 1 -- the INR 875 crores, which you rightly pointed out, is stage 1 today. And we classified it as stage 2.

So sorry, stage 2, you're highlighting 2%. I'm talking about the corporate portfolio. So is this 2% excluding the -- this INR 1,200 crores, which is 10% now?

So Nitant Desai. Yes, stage 2, which you are talking about INR 1,100 crore to INR 1,200-odd crore, including of the SICR. So SICR is INR 875 crore. So coming on to the -- what kind of forward-looking statement you want, let me tell you. As I told you about, it is a process which we have to follow in our recovery and resolution for the corporate finance. The way we have resolved certain accounts with the COVID around it, I'm sure going forward in the next year, it will be a good resolution. And in terms of the provisioning, we have adequately provided for it. I mean, if you look at the INR 875 crore, we are around 35%, 36% already provided, even more than that. So there is nothing to be worried in the sense that on the provisioning side, on the resolution side, we are very much confident. We are hopeful. And it's -- when we are providing SICR, it means that we are already in terms of the permanent resolution including of those accounts.

I think, Kunal, what they are trying to say is that if you remove the SICR, which Ajay had mentioned previously, of INR 875 crores, which we feel that we need to keep on monitoring, it is actually a 0 DPD, which means that it is in stage 1. However, we felt that it was necessary that we should come accordingly to it. That's the reason that they are continuously pointing out that we remain confident of handling this, monitoring it. And hopefully, things should -- if COVID really doesn't come back in the same way, definitely should be in a position to have actually deliver on the work that we are doing.

Sure. And this collection efficiency, which we are highlighting at 98.3% and 99% for March, so how is this -- this is retail, corporate including. Maybe how should we look at this number? Because on the other hand, we are saying that it's like 83% which is there, which is 0 DPD. So just trying to correlate 99% with the overall stage 2, Stage 3 assets which we have.

You're trying to compare apples to oranges actually. Overall, yes, these are 2 different matrices. When we say 99%, we are only talking of retail. Corporate, actually, it is more than 100% because there are, by way of natural escrow mechanism and sale traction, we receive, in a normal course, higher than the billed amount, right? So that's why collection efficiency for corporate, we don't make. When we talk of collection efficiency, it is more gradual and related -- a concept related to retail. So if you're asking me, this is my position, 99% is retail and over 100% for corporate.

Okay. Okay. Got it. So this is only retail out there?

That's right.

Okay. And corporate, how it would have moved over the last 3 quarters, if you were to look at it? Maybe just because I think in other HFCs, the efficiency or maybe the collections on the corporate were much on the lower side. So how would have been the movement? Today, we are saying it's 100% plus. But how it would have been, say, getting into Q2, Q3 and Q4?

Q3 and then Q2, it was 92%, sort of using the data we did.

Yes. So Q3 was 91%. Q2, if I will say so, was mainly the moratoria period. So that [indiscernible] yes. So Q3, the comparative number would be 91%. And it's crossed 100% for us in Q4 because of more than -- I mean, better skill collections and the skill sharing that we have in place.

Okay. Okay. Sorry, sir, again, to touch upon in terms of the credit cost. So are we now comfortable with -- so this was answered. We are also about -- again, just want to maybe get the clarity. So on the corporate, given that 30% of it is stage 2, and almost like 60% of Stage 3 is covered, and on retail also, we had done 11%, 12% on stage 2 and 30-odd percent on Stage 3, so are we comfortable in terms of the credit cost and no further credit cost would be needed? And whatever provisioning was this -- was that this quarter, this was largely because of the recognition which happened after the classification of the pro forma? So would that -- are we enough confident about it?

Yes. Pretty much you're on the dot. I think our journey on provisioning and credit cost, we -- both in retail and corporate, we have done. In ECL, the ECL provisioning for CL actually is 14%. We made aggressive provisioning in stage 1, 2 by applying management overlay. And for Stage 3 also, we increased from 14% to 16% predominantly to keep net NPA at sub-2.5% level. For retail also, 1.78% coverage is a healthy coverage. We have further stress tested the PD LGD for getting these numbers. So from FY '22 and '23, we expect the credit cost to come down. We would like to see the credit cost coming down to 35, 30 bps. But given the COVID thing is still going on, we expect it to be around 70%, 75% to be on a conservative side for next year.

The next question is from the line of Shalini Vasanta from DSP Mutual Fund.

This is [ Vivek ]. I had 2 sets of questions. The first goes back to the first question that was asked in the question-and-answer session. Could you please give us a little more texture around the customer that you target? Because the customer is obviously playing a higher rate. Given the fact that mortgages are always advertised at the extremely low rates, why would the customer come to you? Do you see a lot of business transfers? Is -- in terms of repositions, is it good for this customer or not? So that is the first set of questions under customer. Why would they come to your business transfer? The second question is around support from the parent -- one of the sponsors, PNB. We understand that they couldn't participate in the capital raise. But do you have arrangements given the fact that they also do their own mortgage lending, anything to do with loan buydowns, securitization or co-origination? These are my 2 questions.

Neeraj, you can take the initial question and I think also part, you can take that.

Yes. So as I pointed out earlier also, I mean, the rate of interest do play an important role, there is no doubt about that. But yes, we have got many of our USPs where we are good at. So we have got a very strong distribution network, number one. Number two, about the customer segment, we have been very transparent in our approach to our customer. We -- in terms of charges that are there, in terms of all those things, rate of interest, everything, we are very transparent on that base. And the turnaround times which you offer to the customer for sanctions, I mean, they are best-in-class and kind of certainty that we give to a customer on the loan amount as we have got a lot of training done to our staff, which is on the field. So they give a kind of certainty to the customer. So customer is pretty sure of what he is getting, and we -- and again, the approach that we have when dealing with the customer. So all those things definitely play an important part. And as I said, we are not very way off from the competition. We were -- earlier also, we were kind of 30, 35 bps higher always. Usually also, if you see our records, past records, we are always 30, 35 bps higher than the competition. Yes, lately, it became a little high on that front. But yes, as we have got many isolated customers, service is one of the most important criteria right now. We have moved into a digital space. Everything a customer can get digitally, right, from all the statements and accounts. And all those things, they can get digitally. So all those things, if you see put together as a package, customers would like to come to us. It is not that -- and obviously, the kind of trustworthiness our customer has on us because of our strong image. So I think that all this, therefore, put together, I think a customer definitely comes to us. And I was just mentioning earlier also, we are talking about just rate of interest. But yes, as I said, quarter-on-quarter, if you see, we have been giving some kind of leeway on the rate of interest also. It is not that we have been just -- started commenting that we will not reduce it. So we have done reduction on rate of interest also, and that has also led us to get more business. And as I said, in the month of March, we are close to the number of about INR 1,550 crores. When interest rate is a good milestone for us, we will move forward.

On the second question, on co-lending.

Yes. On the second part, on the co-lending piece, you said how is PNB playing -- managing -- how is the PNB thing going on? So we have got a -- if you see the RBI policy, we are not allowed to do a co-lending piece with the parent bank. So that is one. Parent, so we cannot do with PNB. But yes, we are moving in with one of the banks, one of the big banks. And we have already done our tie-up with them. It is there in the public domain also now. And secondly, we are talking to 1 or 2 more institutions where we want to get into co-lending. And it will be a very strong thing to come for the future as a strategic point.

If you could also --Jatul, if you could also talk about this, the underwriting and everything in the bank and efficiency productivity, why the customer comes to us.

Correct. So as already talked about, the customer does not only look for the rate of interest. It is the turnaround time, the way he is held, the transparency in the system right from as the file gets in and the engagement with the customer, whether through messaging or other digital means. Until the time of sanction and disbursement, that also holds true. And as you said, that it is not the balance transfers coming in. We are not targeting as such. Much of balance transfers are -- and they were as to cater to the customer directly. And that is what is the main source of business on month-on-month basis. And so these are the quality parameters and the digital interventions which keep the customer engaged and hooked to us. So we ensure that the turnaround time, if you see the 80% of the cases, we do around less than 4 working days, irrespective it is salaried or self-employed. So that's a clear differentiator in the market today.

Thank you for the detailed answers. I meant business transfer out, I mean, you can get the customer. But then again, you might go shopping for a lower rate and move out. So that was one of the issues. And then about repositions and whether in your customer segment and the affordable home, it's more difficult than the normal salaried home loan segment.

That has always been the nuances of this trade, I would say. And if you see the business transfers coming in, business transfers going out, it is how you deal with the customer, even the postsales service, what is your level of engagement, how you retain, whether you are able to assess customer's future needs also. Because it's a long-term loan, customer always need a top-up also. Many a times, customer goes in for this. So we have a lot of internal digital tools we have to -- and which we use to our advantage, which gives us the triggers of which customers are looking out for loans, et cetera. So our retention team proactively engages. So in-house, the recipes are there to arrest this thing. And so we don't see that because of -- just because of rate of interest, the customer goes out.

I think there will always be this sometimes push towards interest rates. However, we are seeing that -- and there have been -- I'm not saying that there are not. But actually, we are realizing that people are looking at many other things also over and above. The cash is there. Very importantly, whether your loan has been properly judged on in terms of the amount of loan, especially in the self-employed and other things. So I think the company is aware of that. It's a strong bench trend. And it does a good job in terms of finding out and what should be the right amount, giving loans which are lower than what they should get and everything. I think these are some of the strengths of the company, which hold it in good stead. I'm sure that interest rates also, as we move towards the different environment, these things will also -- I mean, we have already brought down the differentials to the pre-COVID levels. We'll continue to do that.

The next question is from the line of Subramanian Iyer from Morgan Stanley.

I had a couple of questions. So one is, if you could split your restructured portfolio into stage 1 and stage 2. The weight has been classified. So that was one question. The other question is that you spoke about a large resolution in the first quarter. So what is the kind of LGD you are expecting that? And should we expect some substantial provisioning release there as well? And finally, my last question is on the incremental retail lending that you are doing. What is the budgeted credit cost in that business? Is it the 35, 40 basis points that you earlier mentioned? Yes, these are my questions.

Go ahead, Neeraj.

Okay. Talking about the restructured cases, all restructuring has been done in the COVID framework of RBI. We have got INR 1,386 crore odd of restructuring in the retail and INR 337 crore in the corporate. Out of INR 1,386-odd crore, INR 250-odd crore is classified as a Stage 2 and rest in Stage 1. In corporate INR 337 crore in -- out of INR 337 crore, around INR 100 crore in Stage 2 and rest in Stage 1. Your second question was on the credit cost -- on the big account resolution. See, we have been conservative in our approach, but at the same time, we are adequately provided for. We have already built in the cushion. On the -- let me tell you that whatever cases have been resolved so far in the corporate side is the [mini haircut]. Though we are maintaining -- we are holding a very, very significantly high kind of coverage ratio, 50%, 60% or 65%, but we have not experienced any haircut in all these cases.

Got it. And lastly, on the budgeted credit costs and the new retail lending that you're doing.

Budgeted credit cost in the retail lending, what do you mean? I mean, can you clarify on this?

Yes. So there would be basically a certain credit cost which you will be budgeting in your product program, right? So if you're, say, maybe lending at 9% yield or then or, say, 8% yield odds. So there will be certain credit costs you'd be budgeting to see annually, maybe 25 basis points, 50 basis points, depending upon the risk profile. So...

You're talking about the pricing. Yes. Kapish? Sajan? Okay. See, this credit costs are already part of the modeling which we are doing in terms of ECL and everything. So this is already baked in. I mean if you look at by the pre-COVID level numbers, those are the actually or of average credit cost which are building it up.

Okay. Got it. So you saw -- you might be modeling around 35, 40 basis points that you mentioned earlier that you would have wanted -- like to go back to in the next year?

I cannot -- see, we cannot compare actually these COVID times with normal kind of a pricing mechanism. As I told you, whatever we are building it up, pre-COVID time, that is part of the pricing policy because especially time. I mean, if you look at a macro factor, in March, when everybody was talking about contraction. It doesn't mean that I will start building up both macro contraction and you negative 10% contraction in the pricing. So whatever was there in the pre-COVID time, that is a part of the pricing policy. And it is not a matter of -- and also, it depends on the kind of profile you are getting. We have got an internal scorecard model where we do the assessment and the pricing piece is already part of that.

The next question is from the line of Avinash Kumar, individual investor.

My first question is, can you tell us what is the collection efficiency without including prepayments and overdues? And further, if you can give a breakup of retail and corporate as well?

See, as is collected at one at the system...

[Technical Difficulty] Your audio is breaking from your line, sir.

So the way we calculate collection efficiency and -- is basically billed over -- amount collected over billed amount. Now the way system is configured out here, if I start removing overdue amount collection, it does not segregate the current due also. So there is some limitation of getting the correct -- so if there are 3 MIs due and the customer Phase 3 MI, we will consider everything in the numerator for calculation. Ideally, what you are saying is take 2 out and consider only 1. The present system does not have that functionality. We did a manual check a few months back, the delta between what we are saying, 99%, and if we remove overdue, intuitively and just calculating and telling you is about 95%, 96%. Having said that, we will, again, recalculate -- calibrate this numbers by removing overdue amount and then we'll share the exact number post this call.

Sure, sir. So can you also corporate, excluding...

Mr. Kumar. Please understand sometimes it goes beyond 100% also because the way you look at it, but that's not the way actually the collection efficiency is good there. It can go beyond because the moment you say that is going to be overdue also added, sometimes you have to bill and everything. Because there are something -- some old overdue and what you have billed today. So I hope the way we can calculate it very clearly amount collected over the amount billed. We can bisect this data. We can look at a lot of other things, but that, in any case, gets reflected into the stage-wise distribution as well as in the NPA number that we follow.

Sure, sir. Can you also, once when you're calculating excluding overdue, can you also do excluding prepayment also for the collection efficiency?

See we have already -- prepayments in retail, we have already -- we don't consider that in the numerator. So it is already discounted prepayment. In terms of corporate account, any bulk payment, any payment received on account of bulk security release, et cetera, we don't consider. But in escrow, because of escrow sharing, if the developer is able to sell more and recover more from the customer and hence, we're ensuring that escrow is more, my -- even he -- his due is about INR 100, I may end up collecting INR 110, INR 120, right? So for the -- I can't segregate that INR 120. It is a BAU for me for corporate accounts. Any prepayment in retail, which is easy to segregate, we don't consider when we do our collection efficiency number, we don't include that.

We'll take the next question from the line of Deepak Mittal from Edelweiss.

Sir, my question is to do more with the long-term ROA, ROE that you expect this business to produce on a steady-state basis. Kind of the current focus is more around asset quality and just keeping control of what we have today. But if you sort of think 1 or 2 years out from here, hopefully, we get to a normalized situation, what kind of an ROA do you expect? And how will the value kind of split from, let's say, corporate book versus retail book versus the Unnati book? Could you comment a little bit on that?

I think, Kapish, if you could speak a little bit on the ROA and the future. Ajay or Neeraj can handle about it.

As you've seen that our corporate book has come down and with the corporate to coming down, we get the opportunity to lever more. MD highlighted earlier in the call as well that this is what the regulator allows us and what the rating agencies are more pushing for in terms of gearing. But I'm sure with once more of retail and more of the home loan portfolio, we'll be able to gear more with self-pulling by ROE. And with all the effort that we are putting in, we have operated our credit cost already in the last couple of years. And as the market settles down, this would be more normalized. And the cost is something that we have been also working on very, very closely. Somebody would argue that the retail might have a lower yield, but then it positive me the benefit of higher gearing and lower cost of borrowing as well. With all these business, we would think that we will get to an ROE which could be in the range of around 1.5% to 1.7% over the last 1 or 2 years -- over the next 1 or 2 years and with a gearing which could potentially touch around 7.5, 8 should give us that ROE of around 15%. Yes. So that's something that we see, and there could be additional elements which could come in, which could play out and give additional push-up as well, whether it's coming from co-lending and then any other elements as well. Yes. But this is how I would see the book should look like.

Around the business, yes?

So ROA of 1.5% at a gearing of 7, I don't think we'll exceed the ROE of more than 10%, right? No, no.

So I'm saying again between 1.6% to 1.8%, right, and then gearing, this could touch around 7.5, 8x with higher share of retail. Retail we already got it down to around 85%. That's what we talked about in the beginning of the year as well. And with more sell down and then normalized layoffs in the retail book, we should be touching a single year profit within a couple of years' time. And that should help us to gear more as well.

[Operator Instructions] The next question is from the line of [indiscernible] from Shri Consultancy.

Yes, for the upcoming 1 or 2 years, what kind of loan growth are you targeting? And what would be the -- your approach regarding this? Yes. It would be great if you answer this first question. I'll ask a second question after that.

So in terms of the loan growth, we are very optimistic in terms of the growth rate if you are thinking about -- we are talking about. I just -- I can't give you a forward-looking statement on this, but I can tell you we are very optimistic on the growth rate as we're looking around growth rate of, say, somewhere around the range of 50% to 60% from here onwards. That is what would be growth from there in terms of disbursement. And yes, on AUM front also, there will be -- we are expecting a growth rate of around single-digit growth rate in terms of AUM. And probably from next year onwards, say, FY '23, we will be at some double-digit growth rate. So that way, we are positive, and I think business would look much more stronger in coming next 2 years.

We'd like to split this. One is actually corporate, which we have very clearly decided that we are going to run out this book, which is in 2019, the company decided, and we have demonstrated it also that we are continuously reducing the book. Now coming back to the retail, obviously, we have had our own challenges in terms of the interest rates and borrowings and other things. So we're continuing to monitor this portfolio. Our intention is very clear in terms of -- so one is that we have also -- in the quarter 4, we have got back the win with increasing our disbursement from INR 2,600 crores to INR 3,900 crores, a 50% increase. We expect that we are going to continue to grow like this. Our intention is to grow at least as the industry is growing at the level. But if possible, going forward, at some stage, yes, we will also like the process. There is one very strong element that comes about is our focus on this affordable housing, especially on the Unnati. If you would see, we have been gaining ground on that on the affordable as well as on the Unnati and our progress is very good. So that's another segment which is going to protect some of the growth as we settle down with the new infrastructure that we are setting up. And that will take us forward in terms of the numbers that we are living. I would not like to give you any forward-looking statements at this stage. But going forward, we have shown it in March '19, March '21 numbers, and we'll continue to build on it. But for these kind of black swan events that keep on happening, we are sure that we will continue to keep our business absolutely in focus and growth.

So earlier you mentioned about loan growth of about 15%, 16%, if I heard you correctly.

No actually, that is what we mentioned was that the disbursement start should be -- we will work on the very, very high disbursement numbers as we demonstrated in the quarter 4 with a 50% increase Y-o-Y. Now I think that is important. The industry is not even growing at that level. Industry is growing at a much slower level than overall. However, once we settle down with the COVID and the demand for housing, which is showing a major shift in the way people are looking at the acquiring of house, we will see that there is going to be a major shift in the way the overall housing finance and the mortgage industry is run.

Okay. And as far as the earlier participants' question on ROE and ROA, I mean how does that math work out? Because around 1.5%, 1.7% of ROA and gearing of around 7 to 8, it doesn't go about 12.5% to 13%?

So whether its not, I will have my own capital as well [indiscernible].

Sorry, I could not get you. Sorry.

If I talk about a 1.7% of ROA and if I talk about a gearing of 8 and then I add up my own capital.

Ladies and gentlemen, we will take the last question from the line of Vinayak Sanghvi from Citibank.

My question is around, while the capital adequacy is very comfortable at the moment, just some color if the management can share around the timing of the proposed fund raise, that would be helpful. And essentially, the participation of the large -- the promoter group, excluding PNB. So not the promoter group at private equity name. And second, if we can get some more color on the breakup of the corporate loan book in terms of the larger borrowers, maybe the top 10 or 20 names, the exposures, what percentage does that form of the book?

Okay. In terms of the capital raise, I would not be able to comment on the large shareholders or any of the entities, who would like to come about in terms of the capital raise and what would happen. However, as you are aware that we were waiting for the capital raise participation of PNB, INR 600 crores was earmarked. Since then, the permission was now given. We have initiated the process of evaluating all options and modes for the funds raise, but we could not actually actively engage with everyone because of the silent period. And the silent period actually end within a couple of days, and we would initiate the fund raise process soon after the end of silent period, and we'll update you regarding the progress. In any case, our current CRR at 18.82, Tier 1 at 15.52 and gearing at 6.3. This is good enough. And if you factor in the INR 1,700 crores, the amount that we kept with PNB, it goes up to almost 20.6. So I think that is what is important for us that we keep -- we will continuously engage with everyone the moment our silent period is over. In terms of the breakup of the corporate book, I think -- yes, Ajay can actually respond to it.

Yes, sure. On the top 20 developers, these are marquee names in the industry, and that constitutes 69% of our corporate book as on March '21. We've actually brought down this part of the book as well. We deleveraged it by around 12-odd percent from March '20 numbers. So this is what the top 20 developers look like. It's around INR 80 crores to INR 100 crores as on March '21.

Understand the kind of developers that we have, there are strong developers, they have [indiscernible], they have [indiscernible]. They have abilities to -- it's just a question of the way the COVID pandemic happens that there are these problems. However, most of the parts [indiscernible] that you see, we continue to remain very, very engaged. We have worked very, very hard with them in terms of either flaring it or we are trying to -- or recovering the amount wherever it was possible. Lest there will be issues because of the sales either not happening or the workers not be there to complete the projects. And that -- however, we are very confident that the corporate book control that we exercised today is far superior that what we had about a year back and during the COVID time. I think that is more important whether we are in a position to have a good handle over the corporate book.

Got it. Just one -- just -- so what would be the average ticket size of the top 20 of the 69%?

We can give you an average ticket size the component wise. So For construction finance, it's INR 160-odd crores, construction finance book. But it's very difficult to give an average size for top 20 developers. We'll give you that number off-line. Actually, we don't have it handy, but we'll give you that.

That was the last question for today. I would now like to hand the conference over to Ms. Deepika Gupta Padhi for closing comments.

Thank you, everyone, for joining us on the call. If you have any questions unanswered, please feel free to get in touch with Investor Relations. The transcript of this call will be uploaded on our website, which is pnbhousing.com. Thank you. Thank you, everyone.

Thank you, everyone.

Thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, on behalf of PNB Housing Finance Limited, that concludes this conference. Thank you for joining us, and you may now disconnect your lines.