Polestar Automotive Holding UK PLC (PSNY) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Thanks, everybody, for coming back. For the next session, we're very happy to have Polestar. A pure-play EV manufacturer that went public via SPAC merger in 2022. It's focused on the premium luxury segment, all EV's. Has some very interesting product. We've gotten the -- had the benefit of riding in them. Unfortunately, we haven't gotten to drive them because of some regulatory issues here in the U.S., but we would love to. Polestar 2 is one we actually have driven and that's actually a great car. As an asset-light business model, sells into North America, Europe, Asia and other markets. It's a really interesting story and I think some of the cars are like I said, fun to ride and great to drive and beautiful in many respects. Today, we're very happy to have from Polestar, Thomas Ingenlath, the company's CEO, who made a long journey here. So Thomas, thank you for coming. As well as Per Ansgar, Chief Financial Officer. Also a long journey, but a little bit less complicated. So we appreciate you making it as well. Thank you guys for coming.

So as we think about Polestar, just from a top-down perspective, how do you think about sort of the evolution of the global EV market and then really how Polestar fits into that and drives the business going forward.

Well, the EV market is -- it's a little bit split. There's our clean tail, our customers, which is simply are interested in the most exciting, the tech advanced attractive product they are out for the latest and greatest, and that's a, I would say, stable market. It's not an easy market. It's a very demanding and challenging market, and you have to have good them products out there. But of course, it's a different topic then now the question may is, okay, how weak or how strong or not strong is the EV development now. For us, that's less of a question, for us, it's much more to be convincing to this really demanding premium customers.

And if you were to think about that, that segment of the market, whether it be EV or luxury, as you're targeting it and you're looking at it, how much of that -- the market do you think is in that layer that you're focused on? Is it 10% or 11%? Or is it -- I mean, how do you think about the core customer base that you're going after? Is it BMW and Mercedes and type of consumers?

[ That is ] even more sophisticated than that. I mean we have to be really targeted. And I mean, there are, of course, a big, big overlap of customers that today have chopped the expensive Teslas when there were still premium, [indiscernible] and of course, Porsche customers. Now we have a big customer group from Mercedes for Polestar 2 today already. But of course, there as well, very, very conservative and traditional Mercedes customers who we might not reach. It's for them, not any more the question if it's an EV or not. We don't make that difference. When we go out and we position our car, we have a complete mixed bag and if the product is convincing, our customers don't mind if it is EV or a combustion engine, it's about being the latest and greatest. And one thing we are totally convinced about, I mean, electrification is better, more fun to drive, and that is when we are out in the premium performance cost being electric is almost a must because the electric drivetrain is that much more convincing when you do it as an electric car. Imagine the Polestar 3, which will be tomorrow on the show. It's a true SUV. You have a high seating position. You have that kind of overview that SUV drivers like. But the center of gravity of that car, where the mass of the car is as ground hugging low as it was with our first Polestar 1, which was a hybrid model, which still had a big [indiscernible] lump of metal in the front. And that was a really low sports car. So you achieve even the highest EVs with an electrified drivetrain that much of a better driving dynamics.

So if you were to think about the direct competition, I mean, when you think about like Porsche Cayenne or I mean...

For Polestar 3, it's that Porsche Cayenne, X5, Q7 segment. And the car is from its luxurious technology with NVIDIA computing with the air suspension stuff, it is, of course, very luxuriously equipped to compete with those cars. It's very different to the Polestar 4, our second SUV, which comes a bit more with, I call it now mainstream technology. There we use a Mobileye data system instead of the Volvo Group developed autonomous drive system. That car is in the segment of BMW X3 and McCann. So anything around $60,000, $70,000.

Got it. And can you talk a little bit about kind of your go-to-market strategy as it stands now and how you're thinking about that evolving I mean we've seen EV manufacturers take different approaches, like the direct-to-consumer approach, some are partnering with dealers. What's kind of your approach to the market and how you think about that?

That has, I think, nicely evolved. On one end, we have, I would say, pretty undramatic about what principle it has to be. We have a direct sales model in Europe, but we, from day 1, did not say, "Oh, we have to do everything ourselves. We partnered up with basically Volvo dealers who wanted to invest into a Polestar Space, which in the beginning was too hands off. I would say from today's perspective, we want them now to engage more into the sales journey and for that reason, changed to a non-genuine agent model, which gives them more interaction opportunity. In the U.S., it was very clear. We do it through a wholesale model and we embrace that now even more because it is working successfully and we want to scale up now this year. And of course, for that reason, it's a nice way of doing it. China is a very different aspect for us because in China, we actually joined now -- a joint venture with a mobile device company, and we do a very different system now there in order to just simply acknowledge that the China market doesn't work anymore as it did in the old days for the OEMs.

I think it's also important to add to what Thomas said is like this year is going to be very exciting for Polestar because we will go from being 1 car company to a 3-car company, adding the Polestar 3 and Polestar 4 to our lineup. And that will, of course, increase gradually over the year from the end of second quarter into third quarter, fourth quarter. That also gives the opportunity for more of our partners to actually expand the footprint geographically. So we're having 3 cars, you can actually have more sales points out there. So we are not only adding volume by adding cars. We're also adding it by more sales points and more partners in a very targeted work during this year.

So in the U.S., you're basically in the wholesale model, you're largely embracing the dealer model as it exists, right? I mean, as opposed going to the right to consumer. Why have you -- one, why have you decided to go that route. I mean, dealers do a pretty good job for a lot of brands that they cover. So I mean it's intriguing, but some folks have decided to go direct to consumer. And two, how many of them have you signed up and are ready to go? Is it mostly Volvo co-branding and there sort of a geographic sort of concentrations like in California and the Northeast and Southeast. I mean how has that approach worked?

Just doing California was maybe in the very early days idea. We saw that in the U.S., pretty scattered, but a lot of dots popping up where sales actually became attractive. And we, I don't know, 30 spaces that we have right now here in the U.S., and that will definitely grow over '24 now with a bigger range. It's -- it's a question of how much do you actually -- I mean, what qualification do you search for? And of course, there is a lot of customer interaction where the customer is happy to have a partner life and in front of them and somebody dealing with them in a positive way. What we have to and what we want to avoid is, of course, that those dealers amongst each other start fighting each other and competing with each other and by that ruining actually your margins at the price. And that is why we recently have a very careful approach on how many dealers we're going to engage. And that's why like Per just said, it has to grow meaningful over volume and not -- and that's what premium brand means that you always in a way, under deliver on the demand. You cannot just simply scale, scale, scale and at some point, have to push us into the market.

When you guys design and engineer the vehicle and go to the market with branding at the Polestar day in California, it was interesting that you were kind of co-branding with some of the technology, meaning I think like Luminar was, LiDAR was on the bumper and done well in a tasteful way, but like had an actual branding on the car. As you look at sort of some of these tech partners, how do you think about sort of this co-branding and bringing them to the forefront where most other companies kind of hide them and say, "no, listen, this is our technology, you're willing to have your tech partners get out there and be part of the process and the branding. It's an interesting differentiation.

So that's where I very much -- I mean it goes from our business model where we always said it's the best of both worlds kind of asset-light model to how we actually build the brand. And the modern brand is not about doing everything itself. It's the whole idea, but it's not just all suppliers. It's actually partners who you develop together with, where you kind of coker hit something amazing. And it's well not about inventing everything yourself. Some of the biggest inventions have been just putting 2 things that existed already together in a new meaningful way. And that's very much what we do. We bring things together and know how to make that really tasteful mix. It's very much like a chef in a kitchen. It's not about you inventing your own ingredients, your own vegetable. It's about what you make out of it and what you find there. And to put them -- and being that outspoken about the great partners that you work with, you see that in fashion and everywhere happening, all these labels that work together, it's actually something which customers really appreciate if you have that honest approach and that kind of very modern idea about what creativeness means.

So in the actual development process of the vehicle, that sounds like some of these partners may be bringing their best technology to you to partner with you in the forefront where other folks where they're being beat up on pricing and push back and not being able to co-brand might not bring their best technology to the forefront. Are you finding that the partnership is actually bringing -- getting you sort of a top of funnel, best product coming to you and you're working with those folks at this point and they get....

Some of these folks that have great inventions. They need companies like us that actually help them to get to a ready product. A product that goes into production. I mean there's one example. It's about Bcomp, a company that is doing out of flex material, natural ground fiber, something which is a bit similar like carbon fiber. But of course, with much better credentials. Now that technology, they did it and stuff, but to make that now into a scalable automotive graded product that survives all the tests that survives all the long-term testing. It would be very difficult for them to do that on their own. To do that together with us, a, we have a first in our product in our car, but we have as well developed IP as well for the benefit of Polestar together with them that we carry together. So that's definitely as well -- it's not just picking something, it's about developing it together into something meaningful for consumer. Very similar with -- for example, Luminar, of course, they're the first implementation of the LiDAR as one thing, but then to work with us together and to get actually an input from a design different company, what would we expect this technology to develop into for us to make -- make it even more better integrated, more beautiful in the car. That's something which gives the value then back to our partners.

Just quickly on that, actually, like while you're talking about Luminar, could you just talk about -- because I mean your -- the Polestar 3 is going to be the second vehicle to come out with the Luminar in it actually, right after the Volvo EX90. What testing have you done, like behind the scenes on that? How is that testing going? And how are you kind of thinking, especially from a consumer-facing viewpoint, like the value this brings to the car?

Well, I'm very convinced that it will be the one big breakthrough for all this years that we have been waiting for autonomous drive when unsupervised highway pilot thing will be accessible. So yes, the LiDAR, of course, will support certain safety functions on top of what safety we have today. But the big, big breakthrough will be for the customer to experience unsupervised highway pilot. It's the one most boring and annoying travel that you do in your car when you're on that highway in a congested kind of annoying stop and go kind of situation and you don't have any interesting landscape, whatever. Yes, that will be amazing when you can switch off and do an unsupervised stretch. And that's what that technology will enable. We are very convinced that the LiDAR technology is needed for that step. And actually, the amount of experts that believe the same thing is growing month after month that the LiDAR technology will be needed for unsupervised piloting. And of course, that's the exciting journey that we have together ahead. And of course, I mean, let's face it, it's very much, of course, the achievement and the drive that Volvo brings there into our portfolio.

And will that Luminar be available in North America anytime soon? What's the point around that?

Well, the idea is, of course, that in California is one of, if not the first place where we will certify it and run it.

Do you want to add about Hertz, it would be an interesting.

Or maybe not.

Well, I mean it's a reality. I mean -- the reality is when you talk about the brand positioning, right, and the way that you're trying to position the brand, it is interesting. I mean, for a lack of better term, butts in seats is also -- can be very convincing when you have a very good product. So sometimes when it's a new product, a rental car fleet to get butts in seats and get people. In the vehicle, it is not necessarily a bad idea. But given your brand positioning and the way you're trying to get set in the market, going with Hertz is maybe not necessarily exactly consistent with that brand strategy. It is a little bit of a step down. So...

But you can look at it from different ways. For us, it's indeed for brand awareness. To stop is a good thing to people actually get to know the brand. And then on the other hand, I grew up in a country where Mercedes-Benz is the taxi, the car that people use for -- and you would have easily have said come on for a premium brand like Mercedes why would they have that fleet of ordinary taxis running around. It never harm them. I think the product has to live up to it. And of course, the service has to live up to it as well. And there, we felt [indiscernible] Hertz. And the deal was a good one. And fine, I mean, we are not dependent on the Hertz business. I mean this is something -- it's nice that it was there and it is there and the contract is up and running. We agreed on '24 being here where we take it slow and pause. There was -- and there's no big drama as it isn't -- I say no, it's an ordinary business relationship, which comes and goes.

But if you were to think about that, I mean, John has now launched coverage on -- we've had conversations with them. It sounds like that the way that the vehicles are operated, particularly in sort of rental car fleet, it does not necessarily lend itself to any EVs, right, just in the way the consumers on familiar with the driving dynamics of the vehicle, the acceleration, the braking, accident. I mean, it's the kind of thing where, as you think about the lessons that you're learning from the breakdown of that, I'm just curious, as you go out and you're selling to customers, is there almost a vetting process of sort of brand ambassadors and people that are familiar with it or with the product and the powertrain where as you're trying to build this brand instead of butts in seats, you're getting try of the influencers and the folks that do understand other vehicles and can really enjoy them and use them correctly, how are you going through that selection process? Or are you because Hertz is arguably -- I mean, Hertz is not necessarily the best place for any EVs at the moment because consumers are just not that familiar with them.

I think 2 things come into play here, which okay might be a discovery. On one hand, indeed, I mean, the performance of such a car is overwhelming. And if you push the pedal that car goes like [indiscernible] . So fair enough that something which is to be considered. The other thing is living with an EV, it is something which you need to get used to it. And how to charge a car, how you actually drive this car, when do you start thinking about recharging a car and stuff. It changes a lot once you get experience with the car. And that is something which okay, that you don't do in just one rental circuit, that you should have -- I mean, that there are experienced cars who just want to rent an EV because they are used to it and they want it, fair enough. I think that is something, which is a very natural demand. For the first try, I just try an EV, maybe it's a little bit something where you need more guidance.

Got it. But I mean as you're going out and you're selling to customers, is there a vetting process for those customers to understand that they will be the folks who will be accepting of some of these changes and then also the great performance that comes with the vehicle, meaning that in an individual customer basis with these dealers, are they vetting the customers so they understand what they're getting into and the product that they're getting so that there's not sort of this negative feedback loop that came from Hertz or Hertz did not operate the vehicles well, let's put it that way. I mean, they did understand what they were doing.

I don't know. There was certainly the idea of a good onboarding and probably I will not say that has not been done. It's just a question of how much can you do that in that short time that you have that customer in front of you. As I said, it's something as well from psychology. I mean let's face it, for example, after driving these cars now for 2, 3, 4 years. I mean, I have no problem to go close to a de-charge of even 5%, 4% because that doesn't worry me yet. I know exactly I will make it to that next point and that's something which requires a bit of experience and stuff. Having said that, I think there are many, many reasons why this thing now came up and it's beyond just the electrification question.

And I guess next, just on the product pipeline a bit. So you had the Polestar 1, which you've now since moved on from, you had the Polestar 2, which is really the first, like EV. You have the 3 and the 4 coming out, then ultimately the 5. How are you thinking about the product pipeline as you get beyond the 5 and beyond the 6. And then also, just a product refresh cycle, I mean, are you expecting that longer term, you're going to keep these on the market, I don't know, 6, 7 years and kind of cycle like the ICE vehicles have been cycled? Or do you think you're going to keep them on the market, especially leveraging the technology and the improvements that can do to the car over time such that you maybe extend years or something like that?

Let's see. I mean, over the updates definitely have changed big times how the car ages. It's amazing to see how quickly as the consumers will get used to that you expect your car not just staying on the same level, but actually with over the updates, becoming refresh and refreshed again and how suddenly it becomes like knowing, hey, there was not an update. I mean that's definitely something that has changed the landscape. But they are very clearly hardware borders of where a car just simply is not upgradable anymore and where you just simply naturally start thinking about that replacement because you just have to plan for that next product. So I don't think that could cycle not necessarily of how long you keep a car in production will change because of that. Our range now gets really finally, that kind of edge that we were after with Polestar 3 and the 4 and the 5, it gets that type of really great technology position and premium products. We will start at some point, of course, thinking about the succession, but we will not think about it the way that you would do just that next generation 2, 3, 4 of product [indiscernible]. And that's why, for example, our [indiscernible] doesn't intend to -- we will never do that Polestar 2 again because if there would be the next generation, it would be then called Polestar 7 or 8 or whatever is then because we want to keep that mindset of not just simply repeating the same recipe, but thinking, okay, is that concept still relevant? Do we evolve it? Will it be maybe a complete different answer to that customer group. So we want to be a little bit more responsive to how transient society and technology developed. And I mean we have so many great ideas at the moment, you see I am rather challenged by payer and other people to not think not too far ahead and stuff. We really -- I mean, for us, it's so important the next 2 years to get now the Polestar 3 and 4 up and running to finish what we have now quite far driven with Polestar 5 already. It's not the final year of the prototype loops. And the factory is ready then to go for in '25 to produce this car. For us, it's a very, very crucial step. All our -- I mean, the -- in the company, a lot of questions are coming to us and we have been far too long used to think about the future. And now it's time for us to think about the here and now and to make that happen. It's such a crucial time for us to get now from a company that's been investing, investing for all these 5, 6, 7 years, and now it's really the time to turn it around, make that product portfolio life and bring the company into a profitable status. I mean we are that close to it. It's really -- this couple of quarters where the company will turn around. And for us, it's really a centric. Everything else afterwards will be -- that will be so easy to think about the next class coming. I mean, that's the cherry on the cake. We really have to now get the get the company into that nice sweet spot of turning profitable, reaching the cash flow breakeven in '25. And in a way, proving to everybody that our share price is totally undervalued.

I think also adding to this is it's -- as Thomas said, no urgency. We have now 3, 4 cars coming out very short term, which is going to make our business completely different in a year's time from now. But then also, we have a good knowledge now how to cooperate. We're cooperating with Volvo on different cars and platforms. We will be cooperating with Geely on the Polestar 4, et cetera. So we have the luxury now to kind of like pick and chose between European quality technology and Asian fast technology, et cetera. So I think we're in a position where we can really be quick and take decisions in a good way when needed.

And then just quickly, while we're kind of talking about financials a little bit here. I think it was in the third quarter of last year maybe is when you provided that guidance maybe it was the second quarter last year when you provided that guidance by getting to breakeven in '25. Has anything changed since then? I mean, it does seem like the EV landscape has maybe sold a little bit. How does that impact things? And is there anything else maybe that we should be mindful of ...?

I think -- the good thing is that we have secured a significant loan here, almost $1 billion, 1.5 months ago, which basically, as Thomas said, is like we have very little need of extra funding now to get to cash flow breakeven. We have a couple of hundred more millions that we are anticipating. And we're also then working very hard with cash management, inventory management, looking through our investments to really give us the flexibility when we really need those money. So no, nothing has changed. And some people are talking about slowdown in EV market and so on. And as Thomas said, we don't really see us as an EV market, we see us as a premium brand market and also, which is quite important to compare us with some of our competitors is that we have a sales footprint in North America, Europe and Asia, which means that some -- when it slows down, for example, in U.S., it may be different in different other markets. So we are -- we can maneuver between the more global sales footprint, which I think some of our competitors cannot do in such a good way that we can do.

Okay. What is your ultimate volume targets? I mean I think when we talk to certain companies like Lucid or Rivian that are different in many ways than yours, there has been sort of historical views of being one of the large global manufacturers. Lucid has been a little bit more vague and one of the constrained, it is fine to some degree. But I think you're correct. I mean, I think the strategy is a good one of limiting where you're ultimately going and remaining a sort of a luxury branded set of vehicles. What does that mean? Is that mean 100,000, 200,000 or 300,000. I mean what's the -- what do you think the volume target is ultimately to drive the scale that you need to reinvest in the business and keep the product turning over time. And you should do a lot more of the Polestar 5 because the Polestar 5 is, no offense to the 2, 3 and 4, it's actually -- it was actually a very beautiful vehicle. The other ones are actually good looking too. The 5 is amazing. So get that out, please.

It's about this magic recipe. There was a moment in time in the beginning of Polestar when we thought about just building cars on top of whatever there is in the Volvo range, and it was clear, it would have been that super premium company, which in a way, would be from day 1 in danger of never ever turning profitable. So it was -- that's not possible. We needed to find that mixture of having the ability to have a certain volume and base to stand on. And that is what Polestar 3 and 4 will do for us, of course, and then this peak products that give that brand equity and the dream and that -- and we had to invest into it. The -- as much as we can build on the tech that we find with Geely for Polestar 3 and 4, the Polestar 5 needed to have that investment into this aluminum bonded sports car chassis because I mean, at some point, you have to prove a point that you are that much different. And yes, I mean, we know that we need that 150,000 volume in order to be on financials, payable good ground to reach these margins. But then again, of course, at some point, we want to reach at 200,000. At some point, we want to reach a 300,000 volume. But this would be all meaningless if we would jeopardize that type of brand equity and that premium in demand position. It would be meaningless to go to 300,000. If we, for example, ruin then the double-digit high teens margin ambition that we have. It's much more important for us to reach that and maintain that, then go then over broad base of volume.

So 150 is kind of the target sort of run rate and then you can grow from there. But that 150, you believe, given your current setup your partners that you could do mid-teens.

Yes, we said for 2025, 155-ish plus or 150 same. And then high teens margins, and that should be a stable business from that point. And then, of course, back to Thomas, that then depends on how quickly we want to add more investments to it, but that should be sustainable level with the car line we have gradually replacing it.

Okay. And that would be 3 and the 4 of the bulk of it, 5 wouldn't be in '25.

It would be -- it's tail-end.

So what would the average price points on the 3 and the 4 if you were to think about '25 to get to that breakeven number of...?

We talk about Polster 2 simplified $50,000, Polestar 4 $60,000, Polestar 3 $75,000 and upwards. And then you can -- for example, the Polestar 3, you can go up to $110,000, $120,000. So that's about the range that we're looking for.

Of course, the average sales price will be higher than the entry level.

Yes. Yes. So those as the start of starting prices. Got it. Yes, the audience have a question. Yes. I mean I guess now that you've had gotten the media to get to test drive like a 3 and the 4 and I'm just kind of curious, I mean, what's the initial reaction been to those test drives and what are people saying about the cars, what improvements you need to make.

No, that puts a big smile on my face because we had last week, the first press results coming out from our Polestar 4 VIP test drive that we did in -- on our proving ground and it was really, really nice to see how the journalist really cherished and embraced the -- what the car can offer and that we -- I say now, again, convinced how -- what we always talk about is, yes, of course, we built on certain technology. But what the art that we can do is to tune this stuff to something, which is amazing to drive and gives you that really great feedback and all the journalists left blown away how much these cars indeed become Polestars. And whatever tech base there is, it's an amazing driver and rewarding predictable drive. It's very engaging and just an incredible quality field to it. And we had the Polestar 3 up in the Arctic Circle for a bit broader group now to test them on an ice track. And the ice track is very good because even untrained people very quickly can experience what you really would only experience otherwise on a dry road when you're in really high speed and when it gets really dangerous in terms of should happens. So on the ice you can do all of that in a much slower speed and you can see, wow, how good or not so good a chassis is capable of giving you kind of the feeling of great controllability. And it's so mind blowing to see how cars are done differently. And all the cars have SP and ESP and shut -- and some of them just shut off and you just slowed down and basically the car doesn't drive anymore in a bit more challenging situation. And if you're really good in tuning it, your car still moves and stuff. And all of that is very relevant for day-to-day drive in terms of if you are that convincing premium. This is how a company like BMW, Porsche got where they are because they are really, really perfect in tuning this instrument. I mean everybody can build a piano, but some of them play bad or good. I mean, to make that instrument to build a study value, you need really that knowledge of how to make that instrument perfect. And that's not just a computer on wheels. We have high tech in our hands. Sure it is a computer, but it's not just a computer on wheels. It's a physically moving highly emerginal thing. And everybody buying that thing makes a big, big statement about their own personality and about what they would like people to think about them. So that's building a brand that is more than just a piece of technology on wheels. And that's what these tests show nicely how Polestar actually is a brand that can deliver on these things.

We're very sad that we could not make that trip. We got the invite, but couldn't make it. So we're very excited that we didn't get the experience of that. But I guess in riding in the vehicles and driving the 2, we kind of get that back to the idea of button seats and the convincing and the building of the brand, absent being able to get people to those winter test drives, how do you get that across to folks with a new brand in a new vehicle? Do you -- I mean is there a lot of direct marketing and test rides that you can do more locally, so people can understand what you're bringing to the table.

No, we scale that.

Because [indiscernible] volume seems reasonable. It's not like -- you're not talking about $10 million, you're talking about a couple hundred thousand units maybe over time...

No, it's really about getting that base going. And I mean our best advertisement is people talking about the brand. And we have now in that type of event we did last year. We actually have a very active and positive Facebook community. Customers, Polestar 2 owners. We have that already for Polestar 3 and 4 despite the fact that people don't own the car, they have actually group itself already in these communities. And we do in the individual countries, we give them those communities the opportunity to organize such an event where our test drivers, our stars come take -- they bring the prototype, the customers take their cars, and they do an event where you actually get that experience, how much -- I mean it's one thing is about experience the product. The other thing is about building these communities and building that passion and desire for the brand. That's what surprisingly, for example, here in the U.S., despite the fact that a lot of people will say, "Oh, but your brand is not that visible here. I actually get the most interaction on our social media accounts from U.S. customers, I mean it's sometimes not about the mass of people. It's about the passion and the conviction about the individual that is there, which will actually drive the success.

Well, on that note, we're out of time, with that passion in the vehicles, it's very interesting story. So we appreciate you guys taking the time. Making the long difficult trip, we apologize for any issues along the way that we -- our government caused as far as getting in. But thank you very much for coming. We really appreciate it.

Thanks a lot for having us.

Thank you very much. We appreciate it.