poLight ASA (PLT) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Good morning, everybody. Today, we are only webcasting the first quarter presentation from poLight. You can ask questions during the webcast. Please be aware, there is a minute delay also, so last minute question will be challenging. So please ask questions along the way. My name is Øyvind Isaksen. I'm the CEO of poLight. Together with me today is Alf Henning Bekkevik, CFO, who will go through the financial. Also normally, physical present is Chairman of the Board, Eivind Bergsmyr. He's today following us through the webcast. Agenda of today, key events, introduction to poLight, operation and market review, financial review, outlook and in the end, Q&A session. Also please, when you ask question through the web, please leave your contact details in case of no time to address all questions, so that we can give feedback at a later stage. Key events for the quarter. TLens is now in use in 2 commercially available products, that is smartwatches, smartwatch phones. You can see the picture of the Xiaomi on top and XUN Max Pro on the bottom of the slide. That's obviously an extremely important milestone for the company after many years of dedicated efforts. We finally entered the consumer market with our TLens. These watches can today be bought in China in all the fancy Xiaomi shops and also through the bigger Internet shops online. Also during the quarter, poLight was made aware that we are planned being used in a barcode product by a Tier 1 vendor, so we are kind of designed into a barcode. There are still tests to be conducted, as we mentioned in the press release. But definitely this is also an important milestone for the company, addressing new markets and actually a very attractive market long term. Several other customer cases is also progressing in different segments. I will come back to the details. And post Q1 '20, we had a share issue raising around NOK 40 million. poLight at a glance, have developed a very unique lens, which can be used in different small compact camera systems, enabling autofocus. We are exploring many different market segments, consumer markets, industrial markets, medical, automobile. So this technology have many, many application in different segments. Founded in 2005, we have built a state-of-the-art competence in optics, polymers MEMS technology and image application and processing. We have a very high focus on protecting our IP. Today, we have 13 worldwide patents families, 10 pending applications and 3 trademarks. We are working very proactively with IP and have quarterly review with our advisers. Today, we are around 21 employees. In addition to that, we have a few consultants. We have headquartered in Horten. We have an office and company in Finland, Tampere, Lyon, Shenzhen, Beijing and in Taipei. And we also have representation in Korea. Four key characteristics of our product is that we are super fast. We are much faster than any other technology, no reason to wait for. We can be very, very compact. We have a constant field of view, so you avoid that annoying pumping when you change focus. And we have an extremely low power consumption, which is very important for consumer markets and specifically for wearables, being glasses or watches or whatever. As mentioned, we are having many market segments we address. Definitely, one of the key markets is the consumer market. Consumer market is equals potential high volumes. High volumes is very important for cost. Though the consumer markets, I would say, it's the smartwatch, the wearable segments, we see more and more type of wearables coming to the market, 5G, Internet of things. You can see now the smartwatches is also becoming your phone, so wearables is for us a key market. And one reason for that is definitely power consumption and compactness. Smartphone is still -- I will come back to it, it's still a very important potential for us. But maybe over the next very long-term perspective, smart glasses, augmented reality, virtual reality is also a market we are definitely active in and can potentially mean a lot for the company and for the world. So those are the main focus areas in the consumer. On the industrial side, we are working in different segments. Barcode, definitely the most mature, coming back to that. But other applications, like machine vision, sensors and drones, for that matter, is also examples of application in the industrial sector. Medical, we are also having a quite interesting activity in the medical area. We are addressing it relatively broad. We have maybe the most advanced progress in microscope technology. But I would say, still, medical is at an early stage for the company. Same comment on the automotive. Cars are being more and more instrumented and equipped with cameras inside and outside the car. They are going to drive more, more less in autonomous. And obviously, being able to sense both the driver, the passengers and the surrounding is key. So here, it's also an activity we have started to explore how we can position our technology in that segment. Yes. So this -- again, this is a picture of the XUN watch. You can see there is a boy version as a girl version. There are 2 cameras in this kind of watches. There is a camera, which is integrated in the screen, which is used kind of when talking to your parents or anybody else. And then there is a camera, which is pointing towards the world, which you can use to take pictures or videos of what you see. These watches are today sold in China. That -- we are, poLight, have our technology integrated in the camera pointing towards what you see. You can say the main camera for shooting pictures and video. And this is the only -- there are 2 watches, which now have this advanced autofocus function based on poLight's technology. We received a follow-up order, although small, for these watches. On the right side here is the Xiaomi watch. Xiaomi is a big player in China, and they have many, many different products, among them, these kind of watches. Just wanted to mention that these watches, which are selling now in China they are typically the high-end version of the watches for kids. So they have other version, which is kind of cost-down version, which is selling at a lower price. But this kind of pro versions are the high end, flagship, they call it, relatively highly priced. And they are competing with 2, 3 other kind of brands in that sector. We do anticipate that the sales of the watches have been impacted by the corona situation during the quarter. We -- obviously, when -- this is -- this watch is a watch for -- very much is, I would say, a safety, keep control of your kid when they are away. So in a way, the watches is such that the parents, in a way, control the content of the -- in the watch who they can talk to, who they can call, who can call them. This is controlled on an app on the phone of the parents, and it's very much a security-related device. So that the parents can, in a way, call the kid, "Where are you?" They can track it. They can see it from GPS. And even they can -- when the parents call the kids, they can also -- parents can themselves choose which camera to see, whether it's the TLens camera from poLight or whether it's the face camera on the screen. So that is the kind of device. It's very much focused towards keeping track of your kids. And then, of course, during the corona days in -- from mid-Jan, Feb, partly March, the mother, father, daughter, son was sitting in a small flat, 20, 30 square meter and obviously the need for having that kind of device was definitely significantly less, and that we have the assumption that, that has impacted the sales. The schools is now in the process of restarting. China is, in a way, leading the way of restarting. And people are getting back to work already, normalizing the situation. And also the schools will be restarting soon, and that will most likely have an impact on the need for such devices and increase sales. Also interesting observation is that it is anticipated that these watches will be released beyond China. That obviously will increase the market. Also there is some, I would say, investigation whether they could use an autofocus technology in the camera, which is under the screen, so then you would have potentially -- per watch, you would have 2 cameras. I think that it's also fair to say that after we got that 2 design wins, we are -- we can go to customer and show watches with our technology inside. It's became a new era for the company because, now we can show a reference. We can demo our technology in a [indiscernible] product that people can buy in the shop. Obviously, that is night and day compared to not having any references and saying that we are only trying to get to the market. Now we are in the market, we can show products, and people can test the quality of the product. So we have definitely been able to open many doors due to that fact. We have a very strong value proposition for the smartwatch phones and for, I would say, in more general, wearables. We are small size. We have very low power consumption. We have no gravity impact when -- which is fundamental when people are moving. And also this field of view, which is constant, which is not giving this pumping when you change focus. It is definitely the way we see it a growing and maturing market. Many, many new features will be launched in these kind of devices. I myself is using a smartwatch, which is also a phone when I'm out jogging or running. I really miss to have a camera because that huge big iPhone is too big to run with, so that's why I want to have camera in all smartwatches. I think that really makes sense. So all the application, you can see the lady on the right. She's making a payment with a watch using the camera. They are very popular in China to do all kind of payments like that. So more and more features will come in these smartwatches. Camera, if you take -- just compare it to the world in the smartphone, we can see how camera become more and more important. I suspect that you will have exactly the same development in the smartwatch. And when we talk to the customer, they say that they expect that camera will be one of the major function in the smartwatch going forward. I think it will also be implemented in many new watches. I think there will be not only for kids in the end of the day. So it's going to be an exciting market to monitor. And for us to be inside, with a fantastic references, not only 1 but 2, we want to become a major flagship vendors, is obviously a fantastic platform for this market, but not only for this market, for wearable market, in general, and for smartphone also, which is very similar, you can say, application. And augmented reality. We have talked about it before. It is believed by many of the big leaders in the industry that smartwatches -- sorry, smart glasses will be a new -- the next kind of big thing after the smartphone. Today, it is at the early stage, still. There are low volumes being shipped. They are both in consumer, but high end, but also enterprises, more professional use. We are actually being considered by several market players, and there are ongoing test evaluation, where we are actively involved as a component for this market. Again, key selling point is power consumption, speed, compactness and no gravity sensitivity. We are -- as opposed -- as differently from the smartphone market, which we -- where we are coming with a technology which has to, in a way, displace an incumbent technology, we are in this market very early in. So we are in a discussion with the players at a stage where a lot of things has to be defined, so in a way, in the reference phase, which I think will be an enormous difference compared to what we have been -- when the smartphone -- where we have to kind of displace an incumbent technology provider. We have different use cases for the poLight TLens. We have a use case for where we can control the display, so that whatever -- wherever you focus, the messages you get in the display will be seen as being a focus for the user. That is for laser displays, and it's tuning the laser. That is most likely a long-term application for us. Another application for us is the camera, either for imaging or for sensing, pointing outwards. So potentially then you have, in a way, 2 cameras, some have 3, all maybe have TLens. In addition to that, there is a laser system. So potentially, it's 1 glass -- pair of glass can have definitely more than one TLens potentially. Very, very interesting market. I'll come a little bit back to it. When it comes to smartphone, we write in the report that we have had an increased interaction during the quarter. You may remember that we have been active definitely in this market for a long time. What we see now is that, yes, if you just step back, in a way, it -- we had -- I would say, we were very, very close to get into smartphone. We were designed into 2 smartphones. One of them, we're actually at a very, very late stage, where they decided to stop the project. So we have been kind of, in that way, silently successful in that market also. But many of the -- I will say, proof-of-concept and project, which we have had in that area has been, in a way, stuck up because of the focus from the OEMs on having a huge screen, and they don't want anything to interfere with that huge screen. So they don't want to have more space for a better camera in the front of the phone. They want to spend that space on a better screen. So that has, in a way, stopped many of the activities. Lately, I mentioned also before, we have seen that, because there's a way around this problem, and that is to have the camera under the screen, not in a hole on the screen. And there, we have now engaged with, I would say, a very, very advanced Tier 1 player designing a camera where the lens is -- our lens is inside the camera, making it much more compact, enabling also under the screen camera. That is a very advanced design. We talked about it before. We have, in a way, promoted this concept for a while. Now it seems that it is triggering some design activity at the Tier 1 players, and that's going to be exciting to follow how that develops. In addition to that, we have now been involved in, I would say, predesign, pre-project phase with the players in the ecosystem, where -- for where which they will use poLight technology platform for improving their telephoto folded camera solution when it comes to iOS. This is a big problem today in the market for the high-end phones. And we have proposed a solution, which is creating a lot of interest. That's going to be a -- not kind of a short-term win, but it's going to potentially position poLight's technology platform for a very, very interesting application. In addition to that, we are engaged in dialogues, making the TLens fitting a bigger image sensor. We have talked about our limitation on the aperture size. We have no advanced dialogues with players in the market, and we have done some preliminary testing, where we can make much bigger TLenses by using a different type of technology or changing a little bit the design. That's going to also be not kind of something very short term, but it shows that, in a way, the fundamental of our product platform, technology platform has many, many ways into the smartphone market. So if anybody believe that this was a dead horse, it's definitely not. And as I said, quarter has been proving that there is an increased interaction in this segment. Then we announced, during the quarter, that a barcode product, as I mentioned, have designed our lens into a scan engine. We received a PO. We are now supporting, I would say, the final development and product qualification and preparing them for mass production. They are planning a market release of this product in the Q3 2020. It's a few weeks delayed, they claim. I have to say that it's not a done deal. It is still test to be passed. It's still also can be other factors, business judgment factors which will -- can happen and which will -- could stop the project. But I mean, definitely, we are, in a way, designed in. They plan to use it. So something needs to be decided differently for it to be stopped. We are doing all what we can to support the customer. And it, again, proves that we have a product, which can go into a product with -- into a market with the leading players in this segment. Very interesting project, and we have a pipeline upon us. If you look at this table, which is kind of a little bit summarizing the activity in the different market segments. So you have, again, the consumer, the industrial and other. Other could be medical or automobile or others. So we have ongoing supply for -- on the left column there for 2 projects. And those, as you know, it's the Xiaomi and the XUN, the smartwatch. We have -- in the consumer, we have completed now 7 PoCs. We have 8 PoCs ongoing, and there are 9 players planning a PoC. PoC, again, is proof of concept. It's, in a way, the first after being assessing the technology on paper, they go through a project to prove the technology can be useful for them. That is proof of concept. After proof of concept, next stage is to -- they start a real project, and then it will be added in the project column. So when it comes to completed PoC, we got a question about that. Those can be -- in a way, there can be a PoC for several PoC for the same company, but related to different products. Also a PoC can be completed, but not necessary starting a real project, but that project can come later. So there is a dynamic here, which we need to be aware of. On the industrial side, there is a -- main activity is definitely the barcode. We have one project ongoing, which we just talked about. And then we have a PoC -- 2 PoC, which are completed. And we have ongoing PoC 7, and we have one, which is planning. So quite a significant activity. The -- the completed PoC, again, when will they happen? And when will they move to project? That's very difficult to say. But yes, we have a good dialogue. There are some prospects, there are some projects where they're planning to use our technology. Timing is difficult to say. Our obviously main concentration now is to make happen, which is now in project, to make sure that we do everything we can to support our customer to be the first one to use this technology in that market segment. That's our focus. There's also other -- on this kind of PoC level, there are also other activity outside barcode. It's sensing, laser, machine vision, so the other activities -- non-barcode activities, which is also in those numbers. What you can see here, the medical, automobile, there is actually 5 ongoing PoCs. Majority of them are actually related to medical. And there is one planning. So in a way, good activity. Corona situation, I'm sure, have impacted us also not only our customers sending less smartwatches. But broadly speaking, I will say all the projects we have been initiated and which have been initiating during this quarter have progressed, despite of the corona situation. Yes, people are sitting in home office. China is getting back to office and the labs. But other parts of the world, like in the U.S., there are still kind of people sitting from distance to work, and that will probably delay some of the projects being not accessing the labs. But broadly speaking, we feel a very good progress. And definitely, in many, many sectors, I will say that we have had more progress than for a long time. Okay, Alf Henning, financial review.

Thank you, and good morning to you, guys. So deliveries of TLenses, ASICs and evaluation kits and services gave NOK 500,000 in the quarter to customers for product testings. That is NOK 500,000 more than the same quarter last year. The EBITDA loss was NOK 16.1 million in the quarter compared with NOK 14.3 million the same quarter last year. Supply chain expenses increased with NOK 2.2 million compared with the same quarter last year due to development and qualification of a new assembly line. Bonus achievement of NOK 3.6 million triggered by the design wins were recognized in the quarter, offset by decreased salary expenses of NOK 1.9 million due to reduced headcount. On the balance sheet, cash at the end of the quarter was NOK 51.4 million. That is not including the private placement that took place in April. The current cash position will most likely, or potentially, at least, could potentially fund the company into 2022. Cash flow. Cash used in operating activities was NOK 22.2 million in the quarter compared with NOK 18.3 million in the same quarter last year. The relatively high cash burn in the quarter is due to net working capital that increased with NOK 7.2 million during the quarter. NOK 200,000 were used in investing activities and NOK 300,000 were used in financing activities. The total cash used was NOK 22.2 million, leading to a cash at the end of the quarter of NOK 50.9 million. Thank you.

Yes, and that cash end of the quarter Bekkevik referred to, it does obviously not include those NOK 40 million raised on the share issue in 16th of April. Outlook, yes, commercialization of TLens in early 2020 serves as a proof-of-concept and a fantastic platform for new customer cases, both in that market, but also in other market segments. We have proven that we can be trusted. We have proven that we can deliver, and we have the quality requested in this advanced market, very important milestone. The smartwatch market, we strongly believe, is a growing market. Talking to our customers, they are projecting that market to grow significantly. We are involved with key players and also discussing with new players. In addition to being an attractive market in itself, it is also a relevant reference for the smartphone market and I would say, the wearable market, in general. As mentioned, increased dialogue, an encouraging dialogue with the smartphone ecosystem again, very good progress in the barcode market. In addition, there are many, many other applications we're working with. And so we feel that there is all reasons to believe that poLight will have a bright future. Thanks a lot. Should we then move on to the Q&A session, Alf Henning? And you may want to join me for that.

Yes. Sure.

So should we read first?

We can go through what's coming through the web. Since there's no one in the audience, we can take the web. So there's a question here from [ Dan Echlin ]. Increased number of PoC, but no increase in project and ongoing supply. Comments. Yes, it's a good question. This is something, which is completely out of our control. When people decide to move from the different stages to the more kind of project or design win, it's something we obviously support and work hard to happen. But it's something which is really, really difficult to both predict and definitely cannot be controlled. So I'm sorry, I don't have any good answer to that one. Then a question about our IP patent situation. Are they getting old? And is that -- if so, are disregarded as an issue? Yes, the first patents back in 2005, '06 or something, is getting old. Those are the -- but what we have been doing over the years is that we are, in a way, protecting our solution with surrounding patents, in a way. So obviously, and we also said, we are working very, very actively to make sure that we are well protected, and that we, on a regular basis, do kind of reviews of landscape to operate, and that's that. So we feel that we are in a good shape. We should not obviously be take easy on this, and we don't. But we feel that we have -- with the protection we have today, it's a strong protection. And having said that, to do what we have done with our product is something which is super difficult to achieve. And we can see that for a number of years, we have used to get where we are today, regardless of patents. Then it's a comment about share issue, which gave people a very short notice, also a fairly large participation, some EUR 100,000, made it more or less impossible for -- to participate for some shareholders, which is correct and -- which is normal in that kind of way of running the process. And that's also why we are planning for a repair share issue, which will happen after the AGM, which is then kind of repairing, you can say, that the fact [ Dan ] is referring to. Then there is a company -- a question about will the company be able to get working capital financing for financial institution, e.g., banks. As we move along, as we start to generate revenue, as we get into the market, that's definitely something which will be considered. Then we have some questions from Henriette Trondsen. I think we already answered the question #1 regarding how COVID has impacted us in the presentation. And then you have 2 new project in the completed PoC phase. Which project category, smartwatch or other categories? Yes. It is a mix. I don't want to be too specific. And then Henriette asked, how far away in anticipated time horizon. Are they before potential design win? Again, this is the question, which also [ Dan ] had. It's super difficult for us to predict time factor. It's -- it can be external factors. It can be a market product strategy, which we basically are not involved in at all. But to take one case, when we're starting in the -- in one of the consumer proof of concept, which is ongoing now, they started that a couple of months ago. And they are having, in a way, an ambition to have a product out in the market next year. And if we are able to fit in, that's kind of the timescale which is potential. But you never know when that will happen, but that is, in a way, the timescale they are talking about. Yes, you said in the call that Xiaomi watch might be released beyond China. Which region are you talking about? I think it will be other countries in Asia. Typically, as an example, I think India is a good bet. Do you think privacy concerns in some markets could be an issue for rolling out this watch, for instance, considering smartwatch design for children? Yes. I think -- definitely, yes. But if you look at the way China wants to use these kind of watches is different from how we would like to use it. We have a similar, in a way, watch launched in Europe. It's called XPLORA. And that is a watch, which is deployed in many countries in Europe, Norway, Finland, U.K. and probably Germany. And that watch doesn't have the same function. It's -- from a hardware perspective, it's basically similar, but they would typically not have this kind of security tracking, monitoring, controlling aspect with it. So -- but that's more like a software thing than a hardware thing. So that depends -- different markets would have, in a way, different software, basically. Okay. Then I think we move on to -- we have received a long list of questions in -- yesterday or day before from very active people following poLight closely. It's a long list. I'm not sure that we're able to go through all, but I can start. Yes. The first question is, how does poLight think ahead with meeting any large orders from various players when it comes to capacity perspective? And how quick can you ramp up? Obviously, this is something we are being asked frequently by potential customer, and we need to answer that in a convincing way. We have a good dialogue with our manufacturing partners, ST, and assembly partner in Taipei. And the way we see it is that we have a good plan in place. I'm not saying that it's going to be without pain to ramp up over above what we have today, but there is a clear path. There is a plan. And the time it will take will depend very much on the load and the availability of equipment in the market, which will be directly related to the market temperature, in general. Question #2, barcode manufacturer who still consider TLens for any decision of lens technology. When do you think they make a decision? Again, difficult to say. The project, which is ongoing, is definitely a decision taken. It can be stopped for reasons we are -- out of our control. So that is kind of the process. Then the next project is difficult to say. It could be project with a same supplier. It could be a project with a new supplier. But when that happen, we don't have visibility, which is accurate enough for me to talk about in this presentation. Yes. Then there is -- somebody noted that poLight has patented a rotary camera during Q1. That's basically a way of integrating the camera in a different way in the [ AG ] Watch on this chron button, and that has raised some interest, definitely. And that's also why we quickly did this kind of publication of this solution, so that we have freedom to operate in that area. Five, I think we answered that regarding TLens going into mobile phone. I think we already answered that. I think front camera under the screen is definitely potential, but also being a part of the back camera, enhancing the folded camera telephoto zoom with respect to iOS. Then the next question, we note that a number of AR patents mentioned the possibility of lenses that may include TLens. Have you increased interest in TLens from the AR market during the quarter? I think I mentioned that, definitely. We are involved in very interesting projects when it comes to AR. We feel that our technology is a very good fit for AR. And thinking about the potential, which is in the AR, I think this is something, which is super important for the company to follow, and we will. Then there's a question about using TLens in wearables. Has that also been interest increased from other players? Yes, it has. We are talking to all the major players in that area with using our technology, and we are definitely listening to it. And hopefully, we can get something started with other players also. And then there's a question about Platinum. Can you say something about time of the development of TLens Platinum? The Platinum has actually, in many way, as a concept and as a product, been proven and even has been involved in the PoC with an OEM. So that is proven, I would say, product. What remains to be done is the kind of qualified manufacturing processes, which can be a lengthy process. It can quickly take -- depending on situation and activity can quickly take a year from the start. We have a final qualification in the fab. Having said that, that qualification material, most likely, also, is good material to go to the market. Then question #9. Is it possible a product can be past EVT, engineering verification test, and launch without being notified? Yes, it can be passed EVT without any way having any sign in the market from us because we may not know. But being launched is unlikely. When things are launched, we will know, and we will have a press release. And then question #10, important question. Are TLens as expected for customers? Yes, so far, so good, I would say. The -- it's like every -- there will always be, I'm sure, common problems on supply, and it's impossible to avoid all problems. But I would say, so far, we have been very, very happy with the feedback. So -- but I'm sure, one day, there is an issue, and then we have to handle that. 11, what about the future for the potential for improvement of the product? Does poLight have a clear vision of what TLens or any other product might look like in 2022? Definitely, many of the interaction we have in the smartphone market is related to relatively new things. And those new things is, in a way, on our technology roadmap. We -- road map is in a way our plan where we plan the road at what product and when they shall be developed and shipped. And then there is -- will be, I would say, another activity, which are not a completely new product, but look at the activity we are doing together with partners to how to use our existing products. And that, in itself, can be a relatively extensive engineering development activity, how to use the existing, say, Silver or Silver Premium in the customers' product. It's a lot of adaptation, and we have to guide and help to make that happen. And a good example is the added design, taking a TLens instead of top it -- on top of it, big focus camera. Take it inside the lens needs a very close cooperation between us and the customer. So short-term and long-term plan, definitely defined. And there is no problem to find a way of spending our money, which we are very careful doing. So we obviously do long-term develop now mainly in areas where we feel there is a customer commitment, including financial commitment. Question #12. What company does poLight recognize as the main competitors in the tunable, deformable lens market? Yes. There is us on polymer and nobody else in polymer, and that is protected by patent. So anyone trying to do something with polymer, between sandwich, between 2 glass membranes, will have an issue with poLight. So the other alternatives are liquid based, typically, 1 or 2 liquids. You have wavelengths, you have OptiTune, you have Optilux, which is a part of Corning, a former Varioptic. Those are liquid lenses, which also have the -- definitely their merits and their advantages, and we are obviously following them closely. Then a follow-up question. What are the main strengths, weaknesses of TLens compared to tunable deformable lens solution, which are regardless competition? The disadvantages by TLens, the current product is limitation in aperture size and optical power. The advantages is compactness, robustness, reliability and speed, power consumption. So yes, I think that's the -- summing it up in a good way. Yes. And then there's a question regarding market. Which -- what market does poLight see most movement from VCM towards tunable lens. Difficult question. I think -- I feel VCM will be there for many, many years. It's very well known. The engineers are very used to using and implementing VCM. So I think it's unlikely and -- to talk about displacement completely of VCM. I think that is -- if ever happens, it's -- yes, it's going to be a long, long, long time. I think what we do is -- what tunable lens is will be is in addition to -- they will co-exist with the VCMs. And I think that one market, as an example, there are others, but one market is wearables due to power consumption, compactness is definitely thinking of tunable as a very attractive alternative to the VCM. We have mentioned smart glasses. The power consumption they can save and also the features they can achieve by using tunable lenses and then, I would say, obviously, specifically, TLens, I would obviously say, is quite interesting. So that's a good example, I feel. Another example is that the back camera on the smartphone is starting to be super complex. And they -- the folded zoom -- folded camera, sorry, for telephoto and camera and combine it to have zoom, and that structure is very complex. And other solutions, in addition to the VCM, are very much needed, and that's another market, which -- where I think this technology can play. Yes. Then there is a question about, can you please describe poLight's general marketing strategy, high level? Our marketing strategy is basically to talk to the end user, end user meaning the guy owning the glasses, the guy owning the handset, showing them our -- demoing our technology, we produce demo phones. We have produced 2 demo phones with our technology inside. We go to the meetings. We show our phones to the end user. And then the end user, in a way, dictate the camera module players to start work with poLight. So that is, in a way, how we do it on the road. Then obviously, we are very, very much involved in all the related shows, like the CES in Las Vegas, like the Mobile World Congress in Barcelona. We are always there somehow, either with own show, together with partners in meetings. So that -- I think it's fair to say that if you go to the major players in the world in the consumer, in the barcode, I think there will be very few not knowing poLight very well. So we have been good in promoting our technology and products for many years. Yes. And then there's a question about how is the feedback from Xiaomi and XUN on the TLens of the product, those are the smart watches? So far, so good. They are, of course, have been shipping less watches than they hope due to the corona situation. But what we see, from reviews and feedback we see from the market, is that those watches from -- also from a camera perspective is performing very well. And then there's a comment here that somebody mean even it takes better picture than an iPhone, that I doubt, to be honest. But it could have been a lucky shot, a lucky day. But definitely, a high-end smartphone is a better camera than the current versions. But there's nothing saying that those kind of watches can also be improved. Definitely, there are a lot of improvement, but there are a very -- it is a very decent camera. I agree. So last one, is there anything new about the tax claim? I guess the short answer to that is...

No.

And we are waiting in the queue. And that queue has been also impacted due to the corona situation.

That's what we heard, yes.

That was a lot of questions. I think -- I hope I -- combined with the presentation, we managed to answer most of them. I think we just need to round up. If there's a question, which you feel have not been answered in a good way, please don't hesitate to contact us. You know our channel, you know our emails and phones, so please contact us, if any. Next event is AGM, May 28, 2020. We are encouraging people to send in their votes up-front, so that we limit the people physically present. And after that, it's second quarter '20, 21st of August after a good summer break in Norway. We're going to do a minimum of webcast, depending on the situation, maybe also a physical presentation. That we have to see. Thanks a lot for all of you following us. Thanks to all of you for participating in the webcast. Have a great day and a weekend when that comes. Thanks.