poLight ASA (PLT) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Good morning, everybody, and welcome to poLight's third quarter presentation. My name is Oyvind Isaksen. I'm the CEO in poLight. Together with me today, as usual, is CFO, Alf Henning Bekkevik, who will go through the financial. Also Chairman of the Board is available. So if there's anybody who would like to have one-to-one after the presentation, that's also possible. This presentation is a webcast. [Operator Instructions] Okay. Today's agenda, as normal, key events, introduction to poLight, market review, financial review by the CFO, outlook statement, and we take the Q&A in the end. Key events in the quarter. Extremely important follow-on order from an augmented reality customer and also confirming, product will be available in 2022. Other AR cases progressing well, encouraging pipeline. Company called Xenocore has themself confirmed that they're using TLens in their next-generation laparoscope, disposable, under qualification. We see an increased activity in the industrial market especially related to the barcode market. Teledyne e2v also launched during the quarter new Optimom 2 mega multi-focus lens at Vision exhibition in Stuttgart using the TLens. Smartphone cases is very actively pursued, spending a lot of resources in the organization on that case -- on those cases. It's likely to see that over time, that selfie camera quality -- high-quality selfie camera will be more and more important. For those who are new to poLight, just a really quick glance. So tunable optics, poLight is all about tunable optics, optics which can be tuned. We are using that in different application areas, as you know. Since 2005, we have been developing and put this into manufacturing. We have a strong IP. We have 17 worldwide patent families, 9 pending applications and 4 registered trademarks, [ TWedge ] being the latest one. 37 employees and distributed all over the world, headquarter in Horten outside Oslo. Employees in Finland, France, U.K., U.S.A., China and Taiwan. poLight technology, we claim, enables new user experiences due to the fact that we're extremely fast, instant focus. We are very, very compact solution. There's no pumping, there's a constant field of view, and we have very, very low power consumption. As I mentioned, poLight technology can be used in many, many different verticals. Consumer side on the left side here is definitely an extremely important area. We do already have design wins there related to smartwatches and webcam. Obviously, addressing heavily the smartphone market being the single biggest market and where the camera is a key, key function. And we can also see now the trend of wanting to have selfie in the -- so we wanted to have AF in the selfie camera is increasing step by step. You can see one of the major players in the world is now releasing such function. Barcode/industrial, completely different market, same product, long-term market. I can say product lifetime maybe 5 to 10 years, whereas the smartphone supply will for us be 6 to 9 months. So there's a huge difference in the dynamic. Barcode in this segment is definitely the most active. This barcode market is kind of driven out by the fact that 1D coding is moving more and more to 2D coding like an example, the QR code, and that reading those codes needs a -- the silver laser system needs an imaging system. Having a flexible barcode reader, you need to have -- be able to focus both close and far. You want to do that fast. You want to do that with high reliability over a large temperature range. Hence, TLens is a good solution. Augmented reality, super, super important area for poLight. There is huge investment ongoing for long time in this segment, and we are nicely placed. I will come back to that, of course. And then there are other verticals which we are, should I say, exploring based on the incoming calls. Two other segments, as an example, is medical. Another one is automotive. Okay? So this is today. We have 9 design wins. Here, you can see 8. The other one, we classify [ at this time ] is the activity we have together with Kavli. So as I mentioned, we have consumer design wins, which is represented by the smartwatch, the MAXHUB web camera, the 2 smartwatches, Xiaomi and XUN. Then we have a design win in with Honeywell EX30, which has led to our strong position in this segment. We have 3 additional design wins in the barcode. Those are mainly related, I would say, to the supply chain manufacturing kind of area. And definitely, we see other potentials in the years and quarters to come. And then we have one design win already announced in augmented reality where we are used for the world-facing camera in smart glasses. So those -- this status only going a few years back, there were none. Now step by step, we are building design wins. And of course, as I said many times, selling the poLight technology and company with or without customer references is day and night. It's so much easier to convince a customer when we already are shipping into commercial products. And that, we feel, definitely is helping us. Let's go into the market review. Consumer, what is the status there? Again, I've said many times, I'll say it again. The invention or the capability for us to go into an add-in design, meaning the TLens is inside the lens stack instead of top of the fixed-focus camera, has really opened a lot of opportunities. And we see kind of quarter-by-quarter, the activity is increasing not only actually in the smartphone but also in other areas, which is wanting to use an add-in design. We have been more and more invested internally in the capability to make reference design. What I mean by that is that we, instead of only coming to the customer with a nice component, the TLens, we are telling the customer, you -- for your product, you can design your system like this, and this will give you this and this functionality. So we're coming more with a solution reference design than only a component. This has helped us a lot in interaction. The focus for consumer during the quarter has definitely been smartphone and augmented reality. But applications such as webcams, drone is definitely also being explored. Short/medium term, I think, the biggest thing is, of course, to break through into the selfie camera, smartphone. And we are continuing using a lot of effort and resources to make that happen. So summarized, 3 design wins, 8 ongoing PoCs, proof of concepts, and 10 planning PoCs. Of the 8 PoCs, 3 are related to augmented reality, 4 related to smartphone and 1 related to iris detection. Okay? AR. So what I can confirm today is that there will be, not saying when, but there will be an AR enterprise product in 2022 using TLens in the market. Not being precise whether it has happened or will happen, but there will be. We are extremely, I would say, engaged with big names and smaller names in this market. And what we feel is kind of pointing to our solution is the power consumption is so low, which is, as you can imagine, say, in example, in all-day-wear glasses where there's very, very limited space for battery, power consumption is key. There is no gravity sensitivity using our technology. You can do whatever you want with you head. No impact. Temperature stabilization by design is TLens. So very, very good for that. High speed and compactness, of course. I also believe that we have a pipeline, which should make it possible to have further design wins, more products out in the market in the next, say, 6 months. Of course, we don't control release dates. But I can say that we do expect additional design wins in the next 6 months. 2 use cases. We talked about it before. The 1 which will be on market in 2022 or the ones, should I say, will be camera, but we also engage in display solutions. Summarized, 1 design win, 5 design-ins, 1 of them being consumer, 4 ongoing PoCs, 3 consumer and 9 planning PoC. So quite an impressive pipeline. Industrial. Yes, Teledyne e2v, a fantastic, good, strong innovative company have launched to the market, what they call Optimom 2M multi-focused lens at Vision show in Stuttgart. This is actually the second-generation camera powered by TLens. They had in start a purpose made, should I say, product for a specific customer, but this is a more generic product they're going to -- they have launched. And you can see in the middle of the right picture there, they call it an Innovative Multi-Focus product. And they can sell this product with or without multi-focus -- autofocus and the option with focus is based on TLens. Strong company selecting TLens, selective poLight is obviously following kind of others who have done the same. A strong, strong indication for the position we can potentially build in this area. And these are big companies making very, very thorough evaluations, which clearly is a big motivation for us. On the top of that picture on the right, you can see we had an announcement, if you may remember, a Chinese supplier called Superlead, which have confirmed using TLens in their scan engine. This is a scan engine going into typical manufacturing line applications. And you can see now they're not only using that scan engine in one product, but they're using it in several products. So that's why you can see 3 pictures there. So it is a market which is -- it takes longer time to develop, but it is also representing a market which you can, in a way, classify as a more recurring business as we will be established by several players. As I said, the product lifetime is 5, 10 years, meaning that -- and even though volume is low or lower, I should say, we feel that the -- when we build more and more cases and more and more references, we will also be brought into, should I say, scan engines, which hopefully are used in closer to the point of sales, meaning higher volumes. So I think it's a significant important part of our strategy, which is high volume -- drive high volume, enable like consumer, enable to drive down the cost of our product and then using very same product in different niche markets with higher price point and higher gross margin. So this combination, high volume, low volume is a really important part of our strategy. Over and above barcode, we are also involved in other kind of industrial application without going into more details on that. For design wins in sum, on design-in, which is Teledyne. While we still classify it as a design-in is that we would like to see shipping. We would like to see the POs coming. So that's why we still classify it as design-in, but it is a product which is launched. Then we have 12 PoCs, of which 8 is barcode, and we have 12 planning PoCs, proof of concept again, which of 8 is barcode. So we keep us busy. Health care. Yes. One of the eager poLight fans in Norway found out that Xenocore have designed TLens into their next-generation laparoscope, disposable. We were told strictly to not tell anything and we didn't. But then once somebody found out, and we are now allowed to say that, yes, that's true. Xenocore is using our TLens. You can see that the picture there, you can see the bending tip which can be bending by automation and TLens is just inside these LEDs lightening up. Actually, as far as we know, first product -- disposable laparoscope product with AF. Xenocore is still in the, I would say, qualification phase. So I will still qualify it as a design-in. And then, of course, when we start shipping, we will declare it differently. Again, a fantastic opportunity for the company to place ourselves in a new high-value segment. This is a really high-value segment. And I think the fact that we work together with Kavli, there was actually an article now in Nature talking about poLight's role and TLens role in this two-photon microscope, which has been developed by the innovative team in Trondheim, Kavli, which we still are working very closely with. This is, as I said many times, this is for us, has not so much been about the money. It's more been a building position and building a brand in that kind of science, medical health care. And we feel that, that has been working. We are getting a name. Our product is starting to be more and more recognized in this segment. And we have, as you know, we have announced quite a big NRE development project with a Tier 1 player in endoscope, which also now is planning to use TLens, a dual TLens actually for sterile endoscope in these big advanced machines. So step by step, building a position over time is super important, also feels good to kind of use this technology for this kind of -- type of application, which is for the -- to the greater good. Like the Kavli case, as I've told before, is all about studying the imaging, the brain activity for animals, when animals is being kind of impacted by different external factors. And they're using then the TLens, actually stacked 4 TLens to get enough optical power to see the behavior and to understand the behavior. And this as being important research used for studying the course of diseases like Alzheimer and stuff like that. So it's really, really feels good to be a part of that. In sum, one design win, which I call it the Kavli, really innovative team in Trondheim there, the team of Moses. We have 1 design-in, which is the Xenocore case, we still it declared as a design-in. And we have 12 ongoing PoCs and 7 planning PoCs. A big part of this 12 is type Kavli activity. The Kavli activity and the publication in different articles, the publication in the Nature is definitely making -- I think we have universities at all corners of the world who wanted to do something similar with TLens. So not going through the details. You will know this table very well. It's a good track to see how things are developing. 9 design wins, the same as last quarter. Then you can see that there is the Teledyne, there is the Xenocore, which is kind of hopefully it's qualifying. There are 7 projects, design-ins. There are 68 completed PoCs as opposed to 58, so progressing. 33 ongoing PoCs as opposed to 31, and 36 planning PoC as opposed to 29. So as I said, keep us busy. Alf Henning, would you like to join me for -- or take over the financial review?

Sure. Thank you, Oyvind, and good morning to you. So revenue of NOK 5.3 million in the quarter compared with NOK 1.7 million last year. Revenue reflects sales of TLenses and ASICs of NOK 3.1 million and NOK 2.2 million in revenue from NRE related to customer development projects. EBITDA loss of NOK 11.3 million in the quarter compared with NOK 2.9 million the same quarter last year. The increased loss is mainly due to increased sales and R&D/operational resources. But last year, we had a reverse expense related to accrued social securities on the share option program of NOK 5 million due to the decline in the poLight share price in that quarter. On the balance sheet, cash position of NOK 104 million compared with NOK 164 million Q3 last year. Inventory of NOK 36 million increased from NOK 12 million in the quarter -- third quarter in 2021. So the inventory has been increased by NOK 19 million year-to-date. And it's mainly long lead-time components that have been increased from STMicroelectronics. But also, we have increased number of finished units, which improves the readiness for high -- potential high-volume customers. Cash flow. We started the quarter with NOK 124 million in cash deposits. We used almost NOK 20 million in operating activities. NOK 300,000 was used in investing activities and NOK 200,000 in financing activities. So we ended up with NOK 104 million in cash at the end of the quarter. Okay. Thank you.

Thank you, Alf Henning. Okay, one slide to go and then Q&A. When it comes to outlook, of course, there are challenges. There's never a kind of straight line to success. But I think there's underlying things happening in the company and in the market and in our position, which makes all reason to see poLight's future in a bright light. As I said, there will be issues. The focus that we need to build an organization, we are able to handle those issues. There are market -- global market things which are happening, which we can't control. And we definitely need to maneuver in that landscape. And that -- part of that answer is to explore different verticals using the same TLens, reducing the risk. So the activity level is high. Many could say too high. We are still a small organization, but the advantage in poLight is everybody works for [ 5 ]. We have several smartphone OEMs experience difficult times, reduced sales, impacting their willingness to invest in new releases, and it also implies cost awareness, new releases are very often about cost down for those OEMs. However, there's no doubt about it. And we have said it for many, many years, when you look at the selfie camera trend, higher megapixel the lower F-number, that needs AF. If you look at the use cases of a selfie camera, among them, look at this social media, Tiktok, where you're dancing close to the camera or dancing far away from the camera, doing all kind of funny stuff. That means a very good camera is needed in the selfie camera. So we think that, that will force everybody to have a high-quality selfie camera, and when we said this 5 years ago, not many believed us, today it's happening. And I think even though it's a little bit suppressed these days, the pandemic, China is one of them who is having a very strict regime handling the pandemic, and of course, many of the, I would say, smartphone OEMs is based in China, and they are impacted by this regime. This will someday stop and one day, it will improve. So now we just need to position -- continue to position poLight to make sure that we are there when customer are willing to move. So we will continue to use resources to be there when the opportunity is there. We are involved, as I said in the report, in cases, which is kind of making, I would say, the fundamental -- my statement, there is no reason to give up. The AR side is, how should I say it, extremely encouraging. We -- as I said many times, we are in the AR space. We are in the beginning of something. We are on the lips of everyone who is thinking of AR technology and cameras and display solutions. And of course, it's not done by itself. We need to deliver. Now, we have opportunities. We are getting mass production orders for cameras or for lenses to be used for you and to buy and that is a fantastic opportunity, and this is happening this year. So the rest is, in a way, up to us to deliver good quality and to make sure that the other projects, the PoCs and the designs are materializing into something good. So far, I would say, a major milestone achieved by the company. And it's important to emphasize that we're both enrolled in enterprise part of the AI world and the consumer. I mentioned before the consumer devices, I do expect more to be in '25, '26. So most of the releases on the AR side will be typically enterprise, but it will step by step become a consumer device, read more volumes. I would say markets such as the industrial market and the medical market is less impacted by the current global situation. And I would say it's progressing as expected. And is giving us a lot of nice opportunities. Thank you.

Okay. Then we are here for the Q&A. Alf Henning, will you join me for the Q&A session? And as I said, if there are questions from the audience, Grethe will be here to hand you the microphone, and we will do the best to answer. Okay.

Okay. First question. You mentioned that the concept tunable wedge is for super resolution for display in AR glasses. Is this also relevant concept for use in smartphones? If so, how will it work?

I would say that as a starting point, and the primary focus is for the AR world. Can it be used for smartphone? In principle, it can. You could think about maybe using larger pixels, giving you a better light sensitivity, but you would like to compensate that by having a wobbulator technology who then increase the perceived resolution. So that could be a solution. As I said, not to focus, but then also a question mark, is the real estate enough in the smartphone? Maybe it is. But yes, possible.

There are some new patents surfacing regarding multiple TLens in foldable optics. Can you describe benefits with this?

Yes. Foldable optics, that's probably then related to telephoto. Telephoto has quite a long TTL. Height of the camera will be very long, effective focal length. And then they fold it, so that you cannot go in the set direction. You need to fold it to go in the XY direction. And so that's why folding. TLens in that folded system is quite nice, actually. Why they're using TLenses? That must be to improve optical power. So if you have one TLens, you get, say, call it, 8 or 9 or 10 or whatever optical power. You can double that by having 2 TLenses. So that's the reason why do -- and you have a relatively nice space in that direction of the [ fold ]. So that's probably the reason. And by the way, that's similar what Kavli does. Kavli is stacking 4 TLenses to get enough optical power to image the [indiscernible].

Regarding pre-shaped membranes and curved back window, can you tell us more about these future solutions?

Yes. You're probably referring to what we showed at Capital Market Day, where we showed the road map of where we think we can develop. And then in the TLens, the TLens is this membrane which we bend with the piezo muscles. It's polymer and then it's the back window. And then you can kind of think about having those kind of components pre-shaped, curved. And that's something which we have on our kind of plan. And why? Because it's giving you an extra parameter to tune. So design-wise, this gives you another parameter to tune to make it more compact camera, to make it more fitting bigger sensors. So basically giving you another parameter to design around, more flexibility.

Okay. AR filters usually has its own space in the camera model. Can you go further into detail how this will work when integrated to be a part of TLens?

Yes. I have to say that next time I need to take my CTO to the show. AR filter in a camera, yes, that's normal, and it's typically -- or it is on top of the sensor, the image sensor. Quite a thick layer. And we have communicated to the ecosystem that we can have that AR filter implemented as a part of the back window on the TLens, which is a flat surface and which will minimize the TTL, the thickness of the camera, which is important in the smartphone. So that we present as a possibility. We do study different coating methodologies to make that happen. It's quite an advanced coating, I have to say, many layers. But that's possible. It will save potentially cost, and we'll definitely save height. But it will also, what should I say, challenge the established ecosystem. Because if you're going to do it like that, you need to -- those who are doing the assembly of the camera needs to be able to do it in such a way that, what should I say, the cleanliness is there. So today, the sensor is maybe done in the Class 10 clean room, and that's not normally what the camera module supplier can do. So it needs to kind of -- yes, somebody can do and somebody cannot. But yes, it's possible.

Good. OIS TLens concept seems very promising, but a bit further down the road. Present patent suggests hybrid between other actuator solutions combined with TLens on top integration. How could this be relevant until TLens has both functions in the same module?

Yes. So anyway, combining, we have patented an OIS optical image stabilization concept. And that is quite a nice concept. And in that concept, we are -- we call it hybrid MEMS, then we're using some kind of, say, mechanical actuator to actuate, and optical image stabilization is a device, which is when you are shaking your hand taking a picture, it's stabilizing the picture. So that -- yes, that's all about the hybrid MEMS, which we have applied for patent and already have patent, and that's exactly that. That is combining kind of existing mechanical actuator with TLens solutions. So that's exactly what it is. And also interesting combining that with a sensor shift, which is another way of doing OIS.

There are thermalization by design, but also mentioned as use case. Can you go further into detail?

Thermalization, yes. So in some -- like in the AR space, this temperature changes mean that, say if you have a camera, which is fixed focus and the temperature is changing, then that fixed-focus camera, which used to be in focus, due to the temperature will be out of focus. So if you have a TLens, even a passive TLens, not activated, that will compensate in the different -- in the other direction. And the reason for that is that the refraction of the index of TLens is dependent on temperature. And that compensation is actually by design. So it actually compensate without any even actuation. Then of course, if you want to do a -- to focus, change focus from close, then you have to activate. So that's why we say by design it's actually compensating somehow the -- and we call it [ a terminalization ]. Maybe you could say by luck.

Are you still expanding team?

Yes. Actually, if you look at the numbers, this quarter is 1 down from last quarter, I think. If I don't -- maybe at least around the same. But yes, we are expanding team. As you can see from the pipeline, we are super busy. At the same time, we have, of course, to balance the cost and the cash flow and all that. But yes, we are step-by-step expanding team. We are looking for a couple of new software resources now to be based in headquarter. We are looking for some manufacturing specialists in the Philippines. So yes, we are. And if anybody knows somebody, good software guys or manufacturing specialists, ask them to call me.

The last quarter seems to be busy quarter for poLight. Has there been a special focus?

I think we answered that during the presentation. It's the smartphone, it's AR and it's industrial and is more and more medical.

Did new potential use cases appear?

Completely new use cases this quarter -- I think what we can see though, and I think I mentioned this also last time is that the automobile is starting to knock on the door. And why is that? There are somebody who is kind of having a vision that the cameras we have inside-outside the car will step-by-step go the same route as what happened in a mobile phone. Meaning more megapixels, smaller pixels. That is kind of a trend, which, in a way, the ecosystem will drive. Of course, they will like to sell as much silicon as possible. So that is kind of happening. And if that happens, it will definitely need AF sooner or later, by the fact that there are more megapixel and the fact that there are smaller pixels. So that's -- another kind of dimension to this is that the -- today, they are using glass lenses, expensive, quite heavy, so they would like to go to plastic lenses, and plastic lenses are more temperature kind of unstable. So changing temperature changing the plastic lens' characteristics. And this means that a camera, which was at A temperature in focus will be not in focus in another temperature, meaning need for tuning your focus. So those 2 facts is potentially making automobile a huge AF market. Will it happen fast, no? Will it be very difficult? Yes. Is it a tough qualification program? Extremely tough. Is it something we are considering? Yes. Are we being kind of -- are we being contacted by major players? Yes. But still very early days.

Did you ever consider collaboration with your competition for high-bred solutions that may benefit both?

Yes, we're continuously looking at all kind of -- type of activations, especially when I say, if we look at the OIS, that's definitely something we do. And one day, we may be there with some combined solution.

Related to the miniaturized two-photon microscope developed by Kavli or similar, home many TLenses have been delivered?

This is related to the type Kavli activity, which is this two-photon microscope. And how many? I think it's around 500 TLenses, which we have shipped to those kind of cases. They have each scope use 4 TLens. And those 500 TLenses probably sold for approximately NOK 2 million. So it's not smartphone pricing, to say it like that.

Okay. Why are not design-in shown for mobile phone while it's shown for other verticals?

Well, that is not completely correct. When we feel that we have strong design-in signals, we should, of course, also show it for the smartphone.

Earlier, you had guiding of going to net zero result in 2023. Also, there was a guiding of USD 100 million in 2025. How do you see this as of the current pipeline and opportunities?

Yes. I think the last guiding we did, we didn't say anything about 2023. We said that we're going to -- now taking a little bit on top of the head, but I think we said that 2025, we kind of -- we reiterated the guiding, but 2023, we didn't say anything. And the reason for that is because we saw that the smartphone breakthrough did go to the right, meaning that -- but we still saw that the 2025 target was possible. So -- but we said nothing about 2023. We haven't reviewed -- or sorry, we haven't got out with any new guiding. So meaning that we still have an ambitious target for 2025. But of course, everybody understand that, that is fully, fully dependent on breakthrough in the smartphone.

In the second quarter, you mentioned a very fast maturing smartphone projects outside Asia. How is this going?

Yes. We have a smartphone project outside Asia, and I would say it's progressing. That's what I can say. How fast? I think they are doing quite a good job, and we are hopeful.

Okay. How do you define a key market player, Apple?

Apple is definitely a key market player, but there are many others.

Has TLens been tested in military equipment and weapons? Is this a realistic market for the future?

No. To the first question, no, not that I'm aware of, but of course, we have people buying TLenses, which we don't know really what they are using it for, so who knows. Maybe I could think about like AR-type devices, which I think also will be relevant for military application, could be possible.

What happened to the 3 matured PoCs in smartphones you mentioned in the last quarter? Is there still possibility to launch it early in 2023?

Remember, when we -- one quarter, we said that -- we saw that things were shifting to 2023 and onwards. So I think that was the wording I used. What -- how would -- how should I answer to this? We are still working day and night to make -- to mature 2023 case. So I think there is opportunities. There is activity which could kind of lead to news flow in 2023. But as I said, and I will repeat, it's super difficult for a company like poLight and any company, which is a new entrance player into that difficult market to sit inside the boardrooms and understand the product portfolio strategy. That is -- so in a way, when we say and where we hope and wish, there's obviously a lot of uncertainty related to those statements. But what I can say is that if I look at the activity we are having today with customers, there is potential for 2023.

And then the last question. Would a larger stock issue make it easier for you to grow? Or are you limited for our controlled growth anyway?

I guess this is about financing. So today, I feel that we are being viewed as robust and reliable from the customer perspective. Of course, we're going to -- when we need to ramp bigger numbers, we need to buy a lot of more material. We have still, I would say, sufficient material to supply what I can see in 2023, which is a really, really good situation to be in, really good. And we are in that situation. Of course, we took some bold decisions to order long-lead items. And you can see from the inventory build, Alf Henning was talking about, you can see that, that is coming in these days, meaning that we can be less stressed about being able to supply because we have material, which is a super good situation to be in. Ramping further doubling, tripling, blah, blah, blah. Of course, that will need more capital, and we need to plan for that need for capital as we see cases are maturing. Okay. Grethe, could you give the microphone to the gentleman to the right.

Will poLight announce it when the AR product is released to the market?

That's a super good question and I would expect that question. This is really difficult for us because we are on a such strict NDA with customer. And little bit like the Xenocore and the Teledyne is a little by happening that we are able to kind of say it today. When it comes to the AR product, what I've said today is that I know that in 2022, you can buy an AR product with TLens inside. That I've confirmed today, okay? So that's new information. That doesn't mean that I are -- I'm allowed. I'm not necessary or most likely, I should say, I'm not allowed to say, now our customer has launched the product. I'm not allowed to do that. I obviously, every time I ask, not only one, but many times, but I'm generally speaking, not allowed. Then, of course, typically, when products are being released to market, there is what you call a teardown analysis being carried out. And then, of course, in these teardown analysis, there are potential information, which could be of interest. And then many of these key component will be visible. So that was a long answer, but hopefully, it was a good one. Okay. Thanks, Alf Henning for joining me for the Q&A. Is there any last minute?

No.

Okay. So thank you all for coming to the presentation at Continental hall today. It's good to see that so many was here. I hope you will come back next time and bring you partner. There are still some open chairs. So thanks for coming. And also, thanks for you watching the webcast, and thanks for all of you asking all these questions, which is making this kind of quarterly presentation so much dynamic and so much better. We really appreciate that activity. Next event, it's actually after Christmas, Q4 '22, 16th of February 2023. Thank you. Have a great day.