Prestige Estates Projects Limited (PRESTIGE) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Ladies and gentlemen, good day, and welcome to the Prestige Estates' Q4 and FY '24 Earnings Conference Call hosted by Axis Capital Limited. [Operator Instructions] Please note that this conference is being recorded. I now hand the conference over to the Axis Capital team. Thank you, and over to you.

Thank you, Steve, and good afternoon, everyone. As always, we have Mr. Irfan Razack, Chairman and Managing Director; and Amit Mor, Chief Financial Officer of Prestige Estates. We are also taking this opportunity to reintroduce Mr. Zayd Noaman. He is an Executive Director with the CMD's office at Prestige Group. Active for more than 10 years now, Zayd overlooks host of functions in Prestige including sales and marketing, business development, land acquisitions, strategic investments, corporate finance, amongst other things. He's also President elect for CREDAI Bangalore Chapter. From an education perspective, he has a double master's degree from both Columbia University and London Business School. He did work with CapitaLand in Singapore for a couple of years before joining Prestige Estates. With this, I would request Mr. Razack to take over. Sir?

Thank you for the introduction. I have with me, like you said, I have Zayd, I have Amit, I have Mr. [ Sharma ] also here at the call. And thank you all of you for joining. As usual, this quarter gone by and the year gone by has been quite historic for Prestige Estates. I think we have done the highest sales ever in our company, that is INR 21,000 plus crores during the financial year '24, and even the quarterly sales for the previous quarter INR 4,700 crores, which is again up 21% year-on-year. And we had given a guidance of INR 18,000 crores or INR 19,000 crores, but we have crossed INR 20,000 crores. And it's now INR 21,000 crores, which is probably what we were trying to achieve for. And this year, hopefully on this INR 21,000 crores, we'll again give a fairly decent growth of almost 25% to 30%. That's what we are hoping for. But the teams, I know, will surprise me and give me more. Also, we've done the highest ever annual collections, and that's touching almost INR 12,000 crores and a quarterly collection of INR 3,400 crores. And we also sold the highest ever area of 20.25 million square feet and in the last quarter 4.11 million square feet. So that is quite a big task and a big achievement. And the number of units sold stood at 10,068 units for the financial year '24 and for the quarter at 1,666. We have the average realization -- since we say 20.25 million and INR 21,000 crores, an average realization of INR 10,000-plus per square foot for year '24. Yes, the pricing of the product is going up increasingly more and there's acceptance for that price. And we also did -- though last quarter there were not many launches in the residential segment, we did launches for the office and retail. And of course, that is not for sale. So without any major launches for the last quarter, we still managed to clean up all the old inventory, and that's a good feel. And we have got the launches. During the year, we did 40.19 million square feet. But this 40.19 million square feet includes office, includes retail, includes hospitality. I think this breakup, I'll give you how much in that is residential a little later. Of course, the company has delivered more than 300 projects up to now and still counting. And on the financial side, for the year, we did INR 9,425 crores in spite of Ind AS, in spite of the accounting system and all that, managing to clock good financial results also. And it's INR 9,425 crores and an EBITDA of INR 4,000 crores with an EBITDA margin of 40% and a PAT of 17.27%. Our debt is still in control in spite of all the CapEx that we have. And I'm happy to say we've signed a major deal with ADIA, which is an equity platform, a combination of equity and debt. And INR 2,000 crores on 4 specific projects, 2 in Bangalore and 1 in -- I think 1 in Mumbai, 1 in Delhi. So this is quite a landmark investment because we also -- ADIA is the first time ever has come independently and invested in a private developer. And they are looking at much, much more stuff to happen. So the exciting times. We did tie up a very large parcel of land in NCR, that's in Indirapuram, of 62.5 acres with a sales potential of 10 million square feet, INR 10,000 crores. And this will be launched sometime in August, September. This all depends on the approval process. The faster the approval comes, the faster we will launch and then faster we'll realize the revenue. And we launched the Prestige City in Hyderabad. Prestige City Hyderabad again did phenomenally well. I think the larger sales of Hyderabad are now with Prestige, though we are a fairly small player there but now we'll become a large player. And Prestige City Hyderabad just in 4 months of launch has clocked almost INR 4,000 crores worth of sales. And all in all, it's been quite exciting. And the best news is that during the financial year '25, we have INR 60,000 crores worth of launches in the pipeline where these are not something where land has to be tied up or designed. The projects are designed, projects are locked in for approvals, in different stages of their approvals. And if all the approvals come the way we are planning, financial year '25 should be a defining year, more so since the market is pretty robust. With this, I'll open the forum for questions. Before that, I would like Mr. Zayd and Amit to add in a sentence each. So then we'll open it up for questions. Thank you very much for listening on to me.

As CMD mentioned '25 is an exciting year for us with INR 60,000 crores of sales that is lined up for launch. That should give considerable free cash flows to the company and keep the debt levels and give us a significant cash flow for the business development.

And just to add on to Zayd, for the launches that we did in FY '24, of the 40 million square feet that we had launched, 31 million square feet was in the residential, and office, retail, hospitality contributed to 8.52 million. And out of the 20-odd million square feet of new launches, INR 21,000 crores worth of new launches that we sold this financial year, INR 15,600 crores were sold of these new launches and the balance was from the inventory.

Okay. Now we are open for questions.

[Operator Instructions] First question is from the line of Parikshit Kandpal from HDFC Securities.

My first question is on business developments. So this year, we have spent close to about INR 4,800 crores as per the cash flows so for the year as a whole for FY '25. So with this INR 2,000 crores which we have raised from ADIA, so excluding that, how much do you think you will spend on land given that we have very limited inventory now in Hyderabad, which has contributed significantly to figures in FY '24? And the incremental growth which we see from INR 21,000 crores, I mean, giving a 25% guidance almost -- almost INR 5,000 crores, INR 6,000 crores, so how do you intend to make it up? So intensity of BD and also like which locations we are looking at, how much will be the total deployment for FY '25?

So the good news, Parikshit, is that we've already got the land now. Even in Hyderabad, we've got two large parcels of land in Budvel which we bought at an auction. And this INR 2,000 crores, which I told you about ADIA, all the money hasn't yet come in. Now that money will come in. It's for acquisition of two more -- for two parcels the land has come in. One is for the retirement of debt of Edelweiss in our Prestige Ocean Towers in Mumbai, and there is one more that we did was for Bangalore. There are two more properties that need to be bought, need to be tied up. And for this, the money is there. So it was just preemptive that we've got the funding. And that is for Kamla Nagar in Delhi and also for a large tract of land in Goa. So once that is required, that will be utilized once that comes in. Until then, we have just received as of today only a sum of INR 500 crores out of the INR 2,000 crores and not more. And then moving on, you asked me how we are able to reach the INR 26,000 crores. As it is like I told you, we've got a INR 60,000 crore new pipeline plus a INR 12,000 crore inventory which is in various cities. All put together, INR 70,000 crores. With that, I think even if I sell half my stock, it will be INR 36,000 crores. In spite of that, I've just given a guidance of INR 26,000 crores to INR 27,000 crores, which should be easily achievable. And I think we will surprise the market by doing more.

That means that there has to be some heavy lifting. Even from Mumbai, I think Mumbai FY '23, we did INR 2,700 crores of sales; '24, we did INR 3,200 crores. So now since you have almost like a lot of premium launches coming up in Mumbai, so how do you think FY '25 will shape up for Mumbai in terms of sales?

See, Mumbai, we have Prestige Forest Hills and Prestige City. We are waiting for the MoEF. Because of elections, the MoEF has got delayed. And the meeting which was even fixed for last week was postponed post the election results. And similarly, Nautilus, even there the MoEF is pending. Now once that gets done, I think both the Nautilus in Mumbai as well as the Forest Hills in Mumbai are large number movers. There is a pent-up demand there because my Prestige City in Mulund is almost, more or less, out of the 1,600 units in Bellanza, we have sold 1,300 or 1,400 units. So just about 200 units are left over at different places. So Forest Hills will be a great number mover. Nautilus, there's a huge interest in Worli. And the moment we launch it, even that should go. Even like the Ocean Towers, one tower which was launched is like almost fully sold out. Now we are working hard to get the approval for the second tower. And the moment that comes with RERA registered, I think there is a lot of interest in that. With this, we'll get a lot of numbers for FY '25 from Mumbai. Similarly in Bangalore, there's a big pipeline. Hyderabad, there's a big pipeline. Goa, we have a big pipeline. And of course, we talked about NCR. Even NCR, there are 3 large projects, which are under approval, one in Sector 150, one in Indirapuram and the other at KG Marg. Once all these 3 get done, there'll be substantial revenue that will come from these projects also. So we are pretty bullish. We are pretty positive that all this will transfer to sales. And I think it will be easy lifting, not heavy lifting.

Okay. Sir, just a last question on the commercial real estate. So we have almost 8 million square feet of total ongoing projects, supply coming up over the -- by FY '26, '27. So if you can give some color on how much of this is already preleased?

Yes. See, this is a work in progress. You see, my teams are working hard to even do preleasing. But normally, I built this building in Pune for the 1 million square feet. When we started it, it was like blank. We didn't know who the tenants will be, how many tenants will come and from where they will come. As we were closer to finish, we got this client called Bank of New York Mellon and they leased out the entire building. In fact, what happened was we -- our economic interest was only 69% -- 31% was the landowner, and the balance, 59%, was the company's interest. But then what ultimately transpired, that we bought out the landowners' interest also. So the entire asset is now in the company's hands, the entire 100% asset, and that's a good thing because then we can control the assets in a more proper manner and that is leased out. Similarly in Mumbai, there's a lot of interest in BKC. A lot of pitch has been made to various clients, very large clients, our existing clients in Bangalore and Hyderabad. So that's also happened. Like Cochin, we have done one development that's fully leased out. Even Outer Ring Road, there was a bit of a blip, stressed, but now everything almost is fully leased out. We have some inventory in Bangalore near the airport which is a Prestige Tech Cloud. But that's work in progress. That project is almost ready now. And I think even that, the teams are working hard. And for the under-construction projects also, I think there is a lot of interest. And as we progress, as we come nearer to completion, the demand will come.

The next question is from the line of Pritesh Sheth from Motilal Oswal. We will move onto the next participant. It's from the line of Kunal Lakhan from CLSA.

Sir, my first question was on when we look at the target that you're setting out yourself for, INR 26,000 crores, INR 27,000 crores. So one needs to also build a pipeline, right, in the subsequent years to sustain or even grow from here on. So with that context, I just want to understand, we spent about INR 4,800 crores this year on new land and BD. How should we look at this number in FY '25 and going ahead?

We do have -- Kunal, we do have a big pipeline. Apart from '25, we have a pipeline which is [indiscernible], which you'll see is an upcoming project. And also, there's a big land bank. So I believe that it's all work in progress. Everything can't be spelt out there, but then there is a pipeline, and we are very conscious about that. And all -- this will all happen as we move along. And if Amit wants to add up something, Amit wants to say something.

In terms of outlay for the next year, it will be in the similar range of INR 3,500 crores to INR 4,000 crores. That's what we are budgeting for '24, '25 in terms of business development spend.

Sure, sure. INR 3,500 crores to INR 4,000 crores for the new land and plus like there'll be some pending payments towards existing land. Is that correct?

No, it includes those pending payments. So that's our yearly CapEx spend is around INR 3,000 crores to INR 4,000 crores, which is what we'll anticipate for this financial year also. And Kunal, just to add on, there is no dearth of deals in the market. As Mr. Razack has also said before, our approach is very simple. We are cherry picking what we want to do and conservatively approaching these deals. And the market is huge. If you just look at the Pune and NCR market, it's equal to the Bangalore market or even more. So I think once we get our bearings in these markets, the deal flow is just going to ramp up even more and take the sales number even higher. I think your question must have been coming from upcoming -- we have 75 million square feet and we've showed 60 million square feet expected to be launched this year. Yes, we'll try to launch as many of those as possible. It's very realistic. We're not just putting a number over there because we've been working on this for quite some time and capital has been invested in the last year in these projects. Hopefully, some will carry on to the Q1 of the next financial year and there'll be more that we'll add on.

Sure. Sure, understood. My second question was on the debt side. I think you guys have done a fantastic job of managing your debt levels despite the growth that you're seeing and the CapEx that you're seeing. Just on the outlook for FY '25, where do you see the debt number settling by, say, March '25?

In fact, you will be surprised, my direction to my team is there's so much of positive cash flow that will come in the following year, the debt level will be below what it is today. Because that's what my ambition is. And I don't see it going up. I only see it going down. That's the game plan also. We have a strategy in mind. We've got a lot of where money has been sunk in on land where there's not much of spend on construction, we believe projects like Prestige White Meadows and our Prestige Raintree Park, where money has gone in for land. And even in Prestige White Meadows, the construction also has been done substantially. Once these get approved and launched, it will give us a huge amount of cash flow, similarly Indirapuram, similarly now in the Prestige City Hyderabad. Also in Budvel, even there we have got a lot of money spent on land and that will come into positive cash flow. So we believe that the debt levels for end of financial year '25, of course, there'll be blips up and down quarter-on-quarter, but the cash flows will be pretty robust. And we will try and bring down the debt level from what it is today.

Sure. Just one clarification on revenue. When you say debt levels will come down, you're talking about absolute debt levels or debt to equity?

Debt to equity.

Sure. Understood. And one last question from my side. Any update on the hospitality demerger and this thing that we are planning?

Yes. That's a work in progress. That's a good question. That's a work in progress. And I believe that, that's the way to go. That's where a lot of CapEx will be required for it. And once we do the demerger and we do an IPO, that will give us additional bandwidth to grow the hospitality business. Because currently, the hospitality business is booming and we're getting positive numbers from all the assets, current assets which are trading, and we do have a huge pipeline of new assets which are either under planning on the construction approval. So all this will definitely require fresh spending, and hence, an IPO will be the need of the day.

Sure. Any indication of the time line? This will happen in '25 or...

Yes. We'll try and finish it in '25 itself. There's no need to procrastinate. Hopefully, the teams will work on it and make sure it happens in the next couple of quarters.

[Operator Instructions] The next question is from the line of Abhinav Sinha from Jefferies India.

Good to see the strong pipeline that we have put up. Can you give us an idea of how, say, the first quarter or second quarter is going to look like in terms of new launches?

Abhinav, actually this quarter, the current quarter, the first quarter will be very soft.

Okay. And this is because of the elections delay that you were saying?

The reason is the approvals did not happen because of the election code of conduct. Though whatever we have tried, it's quite a tough one. In spite of that, whatever inventory we have and we had, we are selling. And we are -- in Bangalore also we are in a near sold-out position. But we hope that some more approvals will come through in this quarter itself. And then if we get the RERA, maybe we'll get some good numbers this quarter. But for sure, the next quarter and the next quarter will be quite defining. This quarter could be muted but not so bad. But at the same time, because of the election code of conduct and the process, it has really put us into a bit of a bind.

Right. Sir, on Bangalore market also, how are we seeing pricing now? Is it stable or still you're seeing double-digit growth?

Pricing is something that I wouldn't want it to go spiral upwards. We do have to have a balancing trick between the selling price, our costs and land price and all of it and still retain our margins, ensure that -- make sure that the company earns decent margins. Because if the price goes up too high, too far, it's counterproductive and then the entire customer offtake will be a little slow. So hence, we are very conscious on this. How we price our product, it all depends on our function of how our price -- product is priced, on cost, on the overhead and also land and opportunity cost. And basically so we are very conscious, and we also have to look at what the market will accept. And I think we balance our pricing. And I think so far, we've done -- our team has done a good job and I think they brought us some good numbers. Actually, price has grown. If you look at the average ticket price of this thing is now INR 10,000 plus.

I have another question, if it is possible to do that.

Okay. Yes, Abhinav.

Yes. Sir, on some -- even on the longer term, I just wanted to check on after the CEO's departure, Venkat's departure, what are your thoughts on having, say, a professional CEO again on the longer-term succession plan also, if we can have some thoughts there?

The thoughts are actually, contrary to the perception, we have professional CEOs in every segment of the business. For the office, I have Juggy Marwaha, who heads the office business. I have the Mumbai Head CEO, Tariq Ahmed, who runs the entire Mumbai operations. I've got Mr. Swaroop Anish, who heads the residential business, and I have Mr. Muhammed Ali, who handles the retail mall business. Similarly now among the promoter group, I have got Zayd Noaman who is now going to take care of investor relations, funding, financing and all of it. He has been in the business for a pretty long time and he's pretty well versed with things will work. Amit is now really cutting out his teeth and doing his job as a CFO and he's performing well. Plus in the NCR region, another promoter director, that is Sana Rezwan, they're going to take care of NCR. And in hospitality also, we do have Mr. Suresh Singaravelu who is quite a senior gentlemen and who's been doing the hospitality business for quite a long, of course, supported by 2 promoter directors. One is Mr. Zaid Sadiq and Omer Jung. So hence, I believe there's a pretty well-rounded team that is there and there's no vacuum of any thoughts. Including on the production side, we do have 2 promoter directors, that is Faiz Rezwan who has quite a lot of energy and youth, and he handles it now the purchase and production along with my brother Rezwan. So I -- and of course, we have Mr. Gopal, the very senior-most gentleman. Of course, in Mumbai also, we have the engineering team. So I believe that where redundancy is not required, we'll -- as things go by, we'll see. In case if there's a need, we'll definitely fill it up. It's not that we want to run a very shoestring operation. If the company needs to be strengthened with some more resources, as the right time goes by, we will strengthen the resources.

The next question is from the line of Pritesh Sheth from Motilal Oswal.

Congrats on some great performance in FY '24. First question is, I mean, on the pipeline. So Bangalore, you keep on adding projects, nothing too much to worry on that. But specifically in Hyderabad... [Technical Difficulty]

No, Hyderabad, I have got a good pipeline. Chennai, I have got a good pipeline. And even now Mumbai, I have a good pipeline. Plus now the thing is we've also more or less concluded a large transaction in the Pune market because I believe that's where, again, there's potential. So we are not trying to spread ourselves too thin, but the potential was there and this process will be handled by my Western region. So I think the pipeline is there. We are conscious that -- I mean, there's no sense in hanging on to a huge amount of so-called land bank and not launching. We do believe we have to be quick. Whatever projects we acquire, we need to bring them to the launch pipeline, like now in Indirapuram we tied up just about a quarter ago. Now we want to bring that to the market soon. Now we've got even KG Marg, we want to bring that to the market soon. So once those get launched then the next pipeline will start this. Like Zayd very rightly said, every day there's offer for projects but we cherry pick and only select the best of the best. So I don't think there's any dearth of opportunity. It's only trying to do things properly without spreading ourselves too thin.

Sorry to interrupt, sir, but the current participant has been disconnected. [Operator Instructions] The next question is from the line of Ashutosh Mittal from Axis Capital.

Sir, our presales have been great. We have also capitalized well on the cycle. So in the next 2 years, can we see early sales of INR 30,000 crores before the market actually peaks out?

Ashutosh, [Foreign Language]. But I'm not guiding. I'm only saying INR 26,000 crores, but I'm very sure that team will touch INR 30,000 crores.

Okay. And my second question is on closures of deals in Pune and Gurgaon residential market. So both are big residential markets and we have been trying for some time. So any updates on these two markets?

Yes. Pune, as I told you, we have closed out one transaction which will get formalized in the next month or so. And that's a large ticket one in the sense it's a joint development. So there's not any major cash outflow. And we do have a local partner who's undertaken to get all the approvals, everything. We just have to give the scheme. So I believe that will be a big number mover for us there again. So I can't reveal more details than this, but it's all work in progress.

Okay. And anything on Gurgaon market, sir?

Goa, yes, we've already bought one piece of land and that's getting registered as we speak in Goa. And then we also have -- we've got 2 large pieces of tracts of land. One is now the one that it Goa I'm talking about, the Sea Scapes, Prestige Sea Scapes. That's a combination of plots, villas and high-rise apartments. That should get launched if everything goes well by August, September.

The next question is from the line of Pritesh Shah (sic) [ Sheth ] from Motilal Oswal.

Sorry, I got dropped earlier. Sir, my question...

[Foreign Language]

So my question was, I wanted to dwell a little more on pipeline, especially in Mumbai, Hyderabad, Pune which we were talking about. Hyderabad, you answered in a bit and I heard that. So just on Mumbai, after these couple of project launches, right, how do you think the pipeline is coming up in terms of other micro markets in Mumbai apart from South Central? So just your comment on that. And Pune in which you are talking about last quarter, where are we progressing on that front?

Okay. Now the -- as I told you, Mumbai, we have a good strong pipeline just now. As I said, we always like to tread softly. Now let these 2 big launches happen. We would like to see the response. There are opportunities. Like we are -- now in Central Mumbai, we're also working on the Jijamata Nagar, which is now, I think, 1/4 of that slum is now getting cleared. And by August, September, the entire place will become a flat ground. It's a big responsibility but we need to do that and we have to build 4,000 rehab homes, which the team has really worked on. The architects are in place. So that's in Central Mumbai. But now we are also conscious that we need to get in a product which is appealing to the mid-income group. And hence, we are looking at various opportunities in Thane, in Panvel and other places. But there are many opportunities, but we don't want to make commitments until the current commitments that are on hand get launched and we get ourselves a little free.

Sure. That's helpful. Second, on the margins this quarter, specifically on residential segment. So there was a sharp increase at 34%. Anything specific to look at? And what should be the sustainable margins on the sales that the company is right now doing, should one assume in that sense?

Amit will answer this question. Amit?

Pritesh, in the current quarter, we had 2, 3 project completions which had higher margins, which has resulted in an increase in margin. Going forward, so most of our projects are in the range of 30% to 35%. So EBITDA margin should remain at 22%, 23%.

Sure. That's where the average for the full year was.

Yes, yes.

And just lastly, I'm not sure if you have answered, but what should be CapEx spend this year and next year, giving guide on that number, some range on that, sir?

This year, we have spent INR 2,300 crores CapEx, which includes INR 1,600 crores on commercial; retail, around INR 250 crores; and hospitality, INR 450 crores.

No, I'm asking for FY '25 and '26. What should be the number one should assume?

See, in the range of INR 2,500 crores to INR 3,000 crores per annum.

The next question is from the line of Parikshit Kandpal from HDFC Securities.

So you've been talking about land acquisitions across India, but one place where we've still not heard anything from you with Gurgaon. So how do you see that market will pan out for us in this year? Are we looking to make any deals there this year and potentially launching something by the year end?

Parikshit, this is Zayd. As mentioned earlier, we're in the process of seeing many deals and evaluating them. There is a huge pipeline that we see of deals, but we're cherry picking what we like. And more importantly, we want to stabilize and launch our project in Indirapuram, and then this will follow. So for that reason, I think we have our eyes set and focused right now, and then we'll definitely pick up something in Gurgaon.

Okay. And the second thing is on Pune. So this is -- the format in Pune will be a Prestige City because I think Irfanji spoke about a large land parcels. So are you looking at doing something like we are doing in NCR with the Prestige City project format coming here in Pune?

Yes, we will be looking at a format like that because it's a large township.

Okay. And just the last question. Now that we have 2 big commercial assets, I think both the projects and I think both in BKC have now moved into ongoing, so even the Mahalaxmi is there. Do you think that at the right time we look at maybe now we have bought out the partner here and we are at 100%, so are we looking to maybe raise some capital and derisk this project? Because these are large layouts with large rental potential. So do you think it should be appropriate maybe before they are ready we look at raising some capital here from private equity? And then maybe in a long term, we have plans for a lease, so then monetize it through that.

Yes. I mean, there are various ways to do business. And definitely, you're saying long-term plan is to maybe once we have a complete scale in both in the retail as well as in the office space, and we've got a target of almost INR 4,000 crores top line rent by 2028, '29 as well as a INR 600 crore top line rent in retail. And I think that's the time we will plan to do a REIT like how we are now planning to do a hospitality IPO. That's the only way to do it.

But sir, no plans to do any, I mean, pre-REIT kind of capital raise, I mean, maybe stake sales to private equity funds a couple of assets where we have already gone up to them?

No, we've already done the stake sale. [Foreign Language] But the whole idea now, game plan is to create, like we said, office 2.0 and retail 2.0. We will do one of -- some of the best retail assets and the best office assets, make them mature. And at that time, we'll think of listing them or taking them to offer a REIT. But it's all work in progress and -- but you never know in life what happens. But as of now, if you're asking me, currently, there's no such thoughts.

The next question is from the line of Chetan Sharma from Systematix Group.

My question is regarding the verticals, sir. Can you give any guidance around the verticals of office, retail and hospitality and service...

Chetan, speak up a little louder, please. I can't hear you. Yes, I couldn't hear you at all, Chetan.

Yes. My question is regarding the verticals. Can you give any guidance on office retail and hospitality or service residential for the FY '25 and '26?

No, we have given a guidance. See, I can't give you yearly guidance on office and retail. But we do have -- we have set a vision for office as for up to FY '28 as almost INR 3,800 crores of top line rental, and for retail, INR 580 crores of top line rental up to FY '28. And I think these are pretty realistic numbers and pretty achievable. This is -- also we've given a breakup on how we are going to achieve it. So that's also there in our presentation.

The next question is from the line of [ Shiva ], an individual investor.

Can you just provide us with some -- the PAT percentage and the EBITDA percentage numbers for the presales that you have done and what will be it in the future?

[ Shiva ], the PAT percent, EBITDA percentage, as Amit already told you will be hovering around 30%. And PAT, like you've seen now, from a single-digit PAT, it's grown to about 13%, 14%, maybe 17% as we grow along. And I think it remains on the similar lines. Unless there's some huge cost overrun in terms of material costs and other things, I think we should be able to retain those as for the next 2 to 3 years at least.

Sir, what would be the PAT percentage on the FY '24 presales that you have done?

It's there now.

He's talking about presales.

Presales is also similar, [ Shiva ].

It will be similar, the 11%.

No, no. PAT percentage, as I told you, between 15% to 17% should be the thing. Amit wants to add something to you.

It will be in that range, [ Shiva ], at around 14% to 15% PAT percentage. So overall margins would be -- gross margin will be around 30% to 35%, EBITDA margins will be around 23%. And after all my overheads and all that, the PAT percentage will be the range of 14%.

See, what we do, [ Shiva ], is we price our product very sensibly. There's no sense in overpricing the product and having no takers. Hence, we are very conscious that while the company has to earn a decent margin, we don't overprice it and then make it redundant.

So 14% to 15% of PAT margin you will be targeting in FY '25 presales that you are targeting around INR 30,000 crores. So that's what you're targeting?

Yes, yes. [ Shiva ], just to add something. If you're looking from the financial year '24 percentage, that is on the right benchmark because we are spending quite a bit on overhead sales and marketing will get debited to P&L. But what gets recognized as revenue is what I did somewhere in '21, '22. So it's not comparable. So once my sales stabilizes at INR 25,000 crores, INR 30,000 crores levels, my overhead percentage will come down and margin and my PAT percentage will move up. So on a stabilized basis, you can expect 14% to 15%.

How much are you willing to target for FY '25? Like you said INR 26,000 crores is your presales guidance for FY '25. So what PAT percentage will you be targeting conservatively?

The answer is the same.

14% to 15%, right?

Yes, tell me.

Yes. It will be 14% to 15%, right?

Yes.

The next question is from the line of [ Yash Gupta ] from [ Thinksight Advisory ].

Sir, my question is on launch pipeline. For FY '25, we are looking for around INR 60,000 crores of GDV. So sir, this will be the new normal for company in FY '26, '27? Again, we will look to see like launch of INR 50,000 crores, INR 60,000 crores on every year basis. Or FY '25 will be a little bit on the exceptional side?

This could be exceptional because we've been working on this for some time. And see, if INR 60,000 crores is the target, we may do INR 60,000 crores, we may do INR 50,000 crores, we may do INR 55,000 crores. As I said very clearly from the beginning, it depends on the approval process and getting that within the time line. There could always be some gaps. So if I have to get the numbers that we're looking at, we have to target that type of launch pipeline. Otherwise, we will not get those numbers. So I see that the potential is huge. And I think we should always target year-on-year between INR 40,000 crores to INR 60,000 crores.

Thank you. As there are no further questions from the participants, I would now like to hand the conference over to the management for their closing comments.

Well, thank you very much once again for a very insightful conference. We had a lot of good questions. Thank you for support and thank you for -- anything else you need, I think both Amit and Zayd and even Mohit are there to answer any doubts you have. You are most welcome. You can email us and you will get answers. And once again, thank you for the interest shown in the company and the support you've given us. Thanks so much.

On behalf of Axis Capital Limited, that concludes this conference. Thank you for joining us, and you may now disconnect your lines. Thank you.