Principal Financial Group, Inc. (PFG) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

All right. Well, thank you all in the room and everyone online for joining us. Very excited to have Amy Friedrich here from Principal. She is President of Benefits and Protection. Amy, I know you have some prepared remarks but I thought it was actually helpful in one of our meetings, if you wanted to go over the scope of everything that you oversee at Principal, too.

Sure. Absolutely. Thanks, Mike. Appreciate you having me for this today. Yes, as you said, President of Benefits and Protection, I do have some accountabilities that span a little bit outside of that as well. So when you think about Benefits and Protection for Principal, it is all of our insurance businesses. So that's going to be what really has been probably the -- in the last 5 years, a bit more of our growth engine has been that Specialty Benefits or Group Benefits business. That is where I have actually, at Principal, spent the bulk of my time as well. And so there's the Specialty Benefits business and then there's our, what I would call as reframed life insurance business. Several years ago, we moved a bit away from the retail life insurance business and we moved squarely into that business market. We've been growing that footprint for the last decade and we are now solely dedicated to using individual life insurance solutions towards things like succession planning, exit planning, the things that help the business owners actually take care of themselves and the businesses they're running. My other accountabilities are making sure that we do the right thing for our affiliated distribution. So think of that as what historically in a life insurance company was kind of a career distribution or captive agency distribution is what they might have called it years ago. We call it affiliated distribution now. And actually, the bulk of the production that comes from those 1,200 financial professionals is actually more in the security side of the business. So that's going to be some of the things that feed into mutual funds and asset management and even the annuities and retirement business as well. So there's still some protection production that comes from that affiliated distribution but that's the other tranche of business I run. And then the broker-dealer that supports all those securities, transactions are my responsibility for the whole enterprise as well.

Great. And I think -- did you have some prepared remarks that you want to go over?

Sure. Yes. I think I just want to make sure to mention although people think of life insurance, what really has been the differentiator for us and what I have overseen the growth of is really that workplace focus. So when we think about that small and midsized workplace, that's going to be over 100,000, just in specialty benefits alone, 100,000 employer relationships that are really part of that center of where U.S. jobs growth is happening, where U.S. production towards GDP is happening, probably somewhere in the neighborhood, depending on if you count it at 500 lives or 1,000 lives, anywhere up to about 65% of the near-term job growth has been happening from that segment. So one of the things we're really excited about is how we capture more of that growing marketplace.

Great. Yes. That's a perfect segue into my first question on sort of the -- your strategic focus on the small to midsize business market, "SMB". How do you differentiate yourselves in that market between distribution, product breadth? Are you more specialized in certain sectors of that area?

Yes. So I'll kind of deconstruct the question a little bit. We have what I would consider a broad portfolio. Years ago, we really just were that kind of core employer-paid, life, disability, dental, vision, those core products that after you've made your medical decision, you make kind of those decisions. We have, in the last 5 to 6 years, really expanded our presence in more of a worksite or voluntary portfolio. So think of them as critical illness, hospital indemnity, accident. So that worksite product set has been a little bit newer for us. Our newest entrant is probably complementing some of our knowledge in the way we handle short-term disability by paid family medical leave. We're in 4 states now for paid family medical leave. It sits as a nice private component complement to meet the criteria for those states that's become a required coverage. So that's product breadth. So I'd say, we really like the product breadth that we have. Distribution is going to be wholesaler-driven. I would say our distribution is not necessarily differentiated except the fact that we really only work with distributors in that small and midsize market space. So you're not going to find the biggest relationship management push for us in some of the large national relationships. You're going to find them more in the regional relationships and people who have really served that small and midsize marketplace. We also get a little bit of nice complementary production from our own affiliated distribution. I just talked to you about our affiliated distribution. They have -- we have a nice little growing practice where we have group benefits expertise sitting in that channel as well. And then you asked about industry, maybe, geography concentration. I would say how we're different is that we aren't concentrated necessarily. If we're concentrated anywhere, it's not a particular industry, it's that we're capturing the knowledge worker content in any given industry. So we're not going to be probably exposed as greatly in manufacturing, in retail, some in the entertainment. We're not going to be in those quite as much as some of our competitors. And then we're not going to be really at all in any sort of federal government programs. And so our -- how we're a bit different is that we don't really have any concentration risk in any particular industry, in any particular geographic area or in any particular product. We like the product bundle and that's how we both go to market and then come back at renewals and gather up more of those.

Great. Maybe since we are sort of still somewhat fresh off of Jan 1 renewals, but between renewals and when you're winning new business, what would you say are the 1 or 2 key reasons that your customers are choosing to stay or to onboard with Principal?

Yes. So I mentioned that we're a wholesaler-led distribution, which means we work with brokers and advisers. We know there are intermediaries in the system and we appreciate the fact -- the work that they do in the system. So when we build capabilities, we build capabilities, we want the products to work great for the employers and the employees who end up using those products but we also want them to work really well for the brokers who recommended us. So I've seen different stats over time but one of the stats that captures my attention every time we talk about it is, if you're a smaller group, so think of it maybe as an employer who has less than 100 employees, your broker or adviser recommendation, they take that recommendation over 90% to 95% of the time. So that broker-adviser is an incredibly important part of our value chain and we've built technology for them. We've built data-sharing capabilities so that we could easily begin to upload and download information so that we can share with their broker systems as well so that things are efficient for them because a lot of the employers that we're working with don't have an HR department. They don't have a dedicated HR person working with benefits. Their only person with an HR title might be a payroll specialist in the company. And so they basically have asked the broker or the adviser to help them do some of the administrative tasks and they've agreed to do that. And then we're the company that ends up helping them get that done really well.

Great. So maybe sort of staying on the SMB sort of topic. But that portion of the economy, I'm curious how you're seeing demand tracking. How is business confidence and how do employers view their workforce today?

Yes. So one of the things, because we're very committed, obviously, to the small and midsize space and we're committed, again, across our portfolio. It's not just present in the Benefits and Protection world. It's also present in retirement as well. But one of the things we field on a regular basis is the employer Well-Being Index. And so we call that the WBI, but the Well-Being Index tracks over the course -- and we field that sometimes it varies but usually, on average, about 3x a year and we field that for employer sentiment as well as employee sentiment. And so one of the things we ask kind of each and every time, is basically how they would describe their businesses because the correlation between describing your business as a growing business and then their willingness or ability to have both the cash flow and the employee population demand for things like benefits is a really high correlation. In our last fielding of that survey, nearly 60%, 58% still described their businesses as growing. So you have the choice to kind of describe it as you're neutral, you're staying the same or you actually have a shrinking business. So that's a really good stat in terms of giving people an indication that there's still a lot of healthy demand out there in the marketplace. So what I see in the marketplace right now is the demand is pretty healthy. 2 or 3 years ago, there was a really, really keen attention to the labor market. No one could find talent. We couldn't get the things done we needed to, to support growth. I would say that balance has shifted a little bit more neutrally now. I would say the employer has a nice set of understanding of the capabilities they need and employees are speaking up for the things that they want and need for their benefits packages. So it's shifted back to kind of more of a neutral point.

Okay. So maybe that was one of my questions, is sort of the extent to which employers are using benefits as a way to recruit or retain. But I guess there's still opportunities to broaden your penetration within a certain group or -- but yes, so I guess we sort of covered that one. But maybe voluntary, it's certainly a hot topic. Maybe you could sort of comment on your successes and the work they've been doing across the voluntary space. But also, I was wondering if there's any evidence of employees, maybe just given the inflationary environment, like are they sort of reconsidering some voluntary products just because their expenses are so high? Or is that not really happening?

Yes. So probably the most interesting stats I've seen on that -- again, I rely a lot on our primary research that we do. So when I have a question like that and I feel like the data in our block of business is holding up really well but I want to know like what's the underpinning of that. When we ask employees because again, we don't just survey employers, we also survey employees. When we ask employees what are your top concerns, inflation is one of them. But also one of their top 3 concerns is personal finance and personal -- taking care of their own personal needs, making sure they've got the stability and the care that they need for themselves and their family. That means that the interest in voluntary has not flagged very much because they do see some of the costs rising but they also see their concern for their own personal and family welfare as very high in that value chain as well. So we are seeing -- again, it's against a relatively small base. But we're seeing the interest in our voluntary product set, those worksite product sets, hospital indemnity, accident, critical illness in as high a point as we've ever seen them. So when we look at things like coverage count growth, and I think you had actually noticed something about our coverage count growth, in that voluntary and worksite set in the last -- in the -- I think it was the '21 to '23 period, that grew by over 60%. So our growth in that area is stronger than it's ever been. And the continuation of interest in what I'd consider core voluntary products like voluntary life, voluntary disability. Again, we've offered those for a long time and there are often mirrors of the employer-paid product just paid for by the employee. The interest in that, I would say, is stable. I wouldn't say the interest in that is growing as much as the other ones, but it's nice and stable.

Yes. No. That's really strong growth, I would say. That coverage count that we are speaking to, are there any specific areas or where has that incremental growth come from? Is it sort of a change in the demand -- on the demand side from the employers wanting to add those? Are you emphasizing those to your distribution more?

Yes. So we are emphasizing them to our distribution. So one of the commitments we make to our own distribution and to the brokers and advisers and to the employers that we work with is we're not going to roll out a product until -- like one of the litmus tests for us is we won't roll it out until we can put it on 1 bill. That sounds super basic. But if you're a small employer, I can't count the number of solutions where your employer-paid products might come on one bill and then your voluntary products will show up in another bill. And if you happen to have a worksite-only-based cancer policy, it's going to show up in another bill. I just told you most of those don't have a HR department. So processing like multiple bills and one is billing forward and one is billing in arrears, that makes no sense at all for a small business. So we get it on the same cycles. We make it as simple as we possibly can and we waited to roll out all of those products that I just told you until we could have them on a single bill. So when I look at the types of things we've been emphasizing, we emphasize simplicity. We emphasize making sure that the broker and adviser who recommended us is going to feel really good about the fact that we not only do things the right way on the front end when we write the business and that we also take care of the servicing, that we pay the claims that we say we're going to pay and we are there for them paying those claims and that we make sure that all of the systems and technology and record-keeping in between keeps up with that. So when I think about what's allowed for that growth, what's allowed for that growth is that we've put the technology. We've put it on the same administrative platform. We've made it simple and we've informed both our distribution and our brokers that this is meeting a market need that sometimes even if it means they can simplify their life by not having to work with 2 or 3 carriers to get that same product set, they can just work with us. We have certainly tried to encourage that as well. So that's been pretty successful. I mean what Principal is known for, is they're known for their SMB footprint. They're also known for being an exceptional partner in terms of taking care of the administrative details, making sure they're there when the claims need to get paid and then helping those small employers and brokers with those things that don't happen nearly as often. So when you think about a disability claim for a group that only has 50 people or 100 people of employer group those aren't going to happen very often. They're actually going to have a claim that happens once every 5 years or 3 years or 10 years. And so helping them understand this is how you even file this. This is how you even look for an accommodation. Here's suggestions we have on how you could either return to work or have some sort of a fast path into getting an accommodation that we know this type of incident or injury could require. So those are the things that we do behind the scenes that allow for us to really make a difference for the small employer.

Yes. Maybe just going off of that topic, I guess, of maybe go into recoveries a little bit but the -- your ability to get people back to work, I think, has been a function of maybe a return to office but also just the technical capabilities, right, that you have in order to get more insight on the claimants. Do you want to talk about that one?

Sure. We get a lot of questions about where we're using AI in some of our businesses. And I would say the disability claims experience has been a really critical part of where we've employed AI. Now the question for AI is, do you build it yourself or do you work with a best-in-class partner? In this particular case we are working with a best-in-class partner who's helped us extend not just for long-term disability but also to our short-term disability block. So when you're a carrier, you have access to really only your data and then the medical treatment data, think of it as certain codes. And so for certain injury codes or other codes, you have the ability to say this is a typical return back to work. This is a typical pattern for this type of injury, surgery analysis, those things. So you're working from really what your claims examiners know in their head and their experience and then what a medical booklet is basically telling you. What this has been able to do across the industry is allow us to see -- it's going to be de-identified certainly, but recoveries, capabilities across the industry for these same types. So if our block has only encountered these things 100 times, we're able to see the 1,000 times it has been. And we're able then to set up its ability then, we can kind of track the medical records that are happening along with a claimant to say, "Ooh, we're seeing something here". What we're seeing means we should probably give them a call and say, "Have you had a change in your medical condition?" We also know that return to work has been a boon for disability options to get people placed back into recovery. So there's a lot of a lot of talk about, well, when people go out on disability and they don't want to come back, that's not actually our experience. Our experience is most people who go out on disability want to come back and do something productive. They want to come back into a job or with the same employer and have an opportunity to do great work. So hybrid working, all the things they can do that's even 100% remote to partial hybrid remote to assistive technology. So if something has been -- their disability has caused a vision impairment or their disability has caused a motion impairment, some of the technology over the COVID era that has been built to address those remote capabilities has been life-changing. And so it also means that our recoveries are markedly better than they were during the period of time. What I would also say is our incidence is better than it was. So some of the things we do to educate, some of the things we do on the underwriting side to have the right risk moving into our portfolio, those are helping the entire industry but they're probably disproportionately helping Principal, helping our block because our block, again, if I have a concentration anywhere, it's in knowledge workers. So I don't tend to have as much concentration on the front line. I'm in a -- on a manufacturing floor, I'm on a retail shop floor. So the in-person work piece of my portfolio is a little bit less than some of our competitors.

Okay. Anyone in the room have any questions that we wanted to touch on? Yes, back there.

Just on the AI part. I guess you're in Benefits and Protection. But throughout Principal is it only used in the -- looking at the disability part or is it [indiscernible]

Yes -- not at all. No, there's AI-assisted technologies across the enterprise being used. There's generative technologies being used and then there's regular predictive and other AI. So let me give you a couple more examples. What I would say is, we're probably using the approach that any AI that we use tends to be human-assisted. So we don't tend to use underwriting that is full scale -- anything in underwriting, anything in risk assessment that is full-scale AI-driven. We are always going to have human assist. So just like I explained on the claim example, we're going to have a human assist claim examiner deciding if that's the action we want to take. If we're using anything to begin to scan or understand the records we're seeing on underwriting, we would always have human assist. When I look at the things happening around some of our ability on the portfolio management side in asset management, some of the things we can use AI capabilities for -- on our retirement business, I would characterize a lot of that work as doing away with the things that were the quick scan, the quick read, the sentiment analysis across voice to tech. And then putting more information in the hands of the operators, whether that's an agent, a portfolio manager, whether that's a claims examiner, an underwriter or whether that's simply someone who has a series of administrative tasks that they need to do that we're trying to take away 80% of the time they spent on either recovering, transferring or reading records and turn it into knowledge working time for them. So those are -- there would be capabilities across the spectrum there.

Any others? All right. Maybe on the greenfield opportunity that's out there or the addressable greenfield opportunity. How does that look today versus several years ago? And if you could maybe sort of talk about the level of competition today versus a couple of years ago. I have to imagine it's somewhat less than large case but competitive.

Yes. So let's kind of start deconstructing the -- I'm going to call it, workplace or employee benefits marketplace. When you look at an employer who has, call it, 5,000 or 10,000 people that they employ, they have an HR professional. They probably have a team of people who are experts in benefits. And so that is going to be -- it is their job to get great benefits in the hands of their employees and to make sure all the things, that they're customized basically to that employer's needs. That's what everyone is competing on, is sort of that customization, that white glove service. Those are going to be 100% saturated in terms of there's disability, they're going to have disability, they're going to have vision, they're going to have the things they want to do for the life insurance. So those are about 100%. So everything happening in that space is truly either the growth that happens through their employee base or its takeover business. We're just taking things over from one another. That's not a space where Principal competes. It's 100% saturated. There's not a lot of new business being created. When you head down into the mid-markets, so think of it as maybe an employer who has 2,000 lives or 1,000 lives or even 750 lives. Those are going to be a little bit more of that mid-market. And that mid-market is going to have variability on whether they have some sort of an enterprise HR system. It's going to have variability on if they have a dedicated set of benefit professionals and it's going to have some variability on how much coverage they've put in place for their employee or their executive key employee population. So that mid-market is not fully penetrated but it's -- a lot of people are interested in that marketplace. What I would say is, we are selectively interested in that marketplace. We're probably going to have capabilities that line up really well for an employer who has 200 or 300 or 400 lives, maybe a little less on the things where they've got 2,000 folks that are already working for them but the ones that are growing into that mid-market. That is probably, I'd call it, 80% saturated at this point. They've got a lot of solutions that they want to have. So a lot of that's takeover but some of that is truly a greenfield opportunity as well. When you get below 200 or 100 lives, those small business -- and again, a ton of the business growth, the -- ton of the hiring in the last few years has been happening in that segment and a whole bunch of the development of the growth in their ability to drive to the GDP for the U.S. has been coming from those size companies. And so we really like growing with them. We like finding some of them when they're maybe a little bit smaller and then moving up with them over time. But that is going to be probably under 200 lives, you're going to look at a saturation of more like 50% or 60% of them have benefits in play. For some of them, down under 50 lives, that goes way down to like 40% or 30% of them have the types of benefits at play. Some people would ask, is that because they'd never want to offer these? Most of the time, it's because they've actually never been talked to about how to offer these. So the question for us has always been, and we've been at this for over a decade, is how do you do that in a way that is -- you're able to replicate in sort of a scalable cost-manageable way? And so what we've done in that marketplace is we've just slowly built capabilities and some of them are we got to have the employer help us do some of the work. We have to have the broker-adviser help us do some of the work and then it's all got to actually be streamlined. So when we look at something like new business onboarding, even 3 or 4 years ago, we would have a timing set that was probably measured in multiple weeks. For small cases, with the streamlining we've done and the investments in technology and data sharing we've done, we've cut that time off by 90%. So we can get those cases installed, sometimes they're measured in a day or hours but usually measured in a couple of days. So that's industry-leading for kind of that small market footprint. And so where we've built capabilities, where we like the greenfield is where we can streamline, where we can have what we know is going to be a loss ratio that's appropriate and an expense ratio that's appropriate so that we can still continue to have the type of margins that allow us to have shareholder value, have economic value coming out but gives us the ability to actually retain some of that at a given time and actually reinvest in the future as well. So greenfield opportunities are great in this marketplace but you've got to be able to figure out that magic formula of being local, getting to the right work with the right brokers and advisers and still doing it in a cost-effective enough way that you can meet those needs, which has proven to be a formula that is hard to replicate. So you talked about new entrants or how is the competitive environment. There's a lot of interest in being in that small market. There aren't as many true capabilities that have been built yet in that small market. Principal leads the pack on that.

Got it. Maybe jumping down to -- because that conversation reminds me kind of, of what you've been speaking to regarding dental and vision and maybe disability but dental and vision certainly is sort of a hotter topic. How are you seeing utilization trending? It sounds like you're a lot more confident on sort of some of the remediation that you've done and you're just more comfortable in that product currently, right?

Yes. So I've been involved at -- I can measure my involvement in these businesses in decades now. So I would say in a couple of decades, I probably hadn't seen some of the swings after COVID that I had seen with dental. It tends to be -- it's a highly utilized product. It's an inflationary product. So we know we need to have trend built into that. But some of the utilization and some of the severity that showed up in the practices after COVID have been interesting to watch. So we know that our pricing has to take into account those things that happen on a utilization -- have to take into account the utilization of severity but they also have to take into account the inflationary trend. So you're hesitant, at least in my history, you're hesitant to move all those levers at one time. So what we've slowly been doing is making sure that our trend actually reflects the inflationary trends that we continue to see or had continued to see in the last 2 years in the business. What we're also reflecting is that increased utilization is moving into our pricing now for the whole block of business because it really is a whole block phenomenon now. So 2024, even in 2023, we started to make what I would consider smaller changes. We've moved those into 2024. Persistency is looking good, which is one of the key points that we have to keep an eye on. But where we've slowed down just a little bit is in that new sale. So some of those new sale pieces for dental have slowed down a little bit. It does tend to be a lead product for us on the bundle. But what we don't want to do is price something at the point of introduction and 1 year later or 2 years later, introduce a shock renewal. One of the things small businesses can't do is they can't afford shock high renewals. So we know that smaller, more moderated renewals when we have to take them is our strategy. We want to stick to our strategy. So we've slowed a little bit of the front end down on dental. It does come with a little bit of other product impact when we do that. But we've also moved our expectations for the margin and the loss ratio over time. So we're very comfortable, especially given that we now know what some of our January business looks like and it's a big month for everyone in the industry. I'm very comfortable that the things we communicated, which is a tighter and slightly -- a tighter range with a bit higher midpoint for our margin, coupled with the types of things we need to do for our premium and fee growth are the right formula for us. I would contrast that, though, you mentioned life and disability. We're having great experience for our life and disability block and we have been for the period of the last couple of years. So we've actually returned some of that pricing back to our employer customers. And so our new sale rates are less than they were 2 years ago and some of the things we've done through renewals have made that more attractive for them. So again, the average customer with us is going to have at least 3 coverages, 3 different products with us. And so some of them move up and some of them move down and the bundle tends to work together at a fairly neutral point.

Great. Any new questions in the room or online? Maybe -- we've covered a lot of the different product lines across your offering suite. Are there any specific ones that you're more or less excited about? Any areas that you would like to see deeper, wider penetration, whether it's organically or inorganically?

Yes. So we've been -- no surprise to anyone, we've been an organic growth shop. That is who we've been and what we are. What I would say, though, is that we talked a bit at Investor Day -- at our last Investor Day in November about the growth platforms for Principal. So one of those growth platforms for us is SMB growth across the company. So when I look at inorganically, there could be some things that make some sense for us to keep a sharp eye looking at related to how that growth platform works across the industry. So we are open to inorganic. It's got to have a great fit for us in terms of cultural fit, it's got to have a great strategy fit and it's got to have the financial fit. So those pieces have to be there. But I think people have tended to look and ask us about acquisition, just business line by business line. And what I would say is, we are thinking of it a bit more as the opportunities that might emerge for those platforms for growth. So I think of that work as more of our -- where probably more of our mindset is going in terms of inorganic thoughts but the organic growth continues to be attractive for us. We like the products that we have. What I would say is, we like a bundled product. The most common employer customer for us today has been and still is having one or more totally employer-paid coverages and then one or more voluntary coverages together. So they don't have just voluntary business and they don't have just employer-paid business. So I like the bundle where a portion of it is employer-paid. And again, one of the great things that comes with employer-paid business is, if they employed 38 people and the next time we gather the census, they employ 42 people, that benefit goes to all those 42 people without the new acquisition costs associated with them. So that in-group growth, that natural growth piece is a critical piece of how we think of the business over time. So that's very attractive to keep a bundle in play. It also manages that usually one product or another is performing -- we balance each other out. So if one product -- we need to do a little bit sharpening in terms of pricing and another product, we can reduce that a little bit, then those tend to balance each other out. So I like the bundle. I don't necessarily think we have to be in this product or that product. I do know those worksite or voluntary products that I mentioned before, critical illness, hospital indemnity, accident, they are a really nice, fast-growing complement to our total block of business.

Great. That's very helpful. Let's see. Maybe on sort of your view on the changes that some people are expecting on life expectancies, right, and influence on overall mortality but also morbidity, right? You mentioned cancer. It seems like there's a trend of -- at least on the stop-loss side, which I know is separate but just hospitalizations. But do you -- there's a lot of new science and drugs, of course, that are exciting. Maybe sort of like a higher level view that you guys are taking on mortality trends and morbidity.

Sure. So there's certainly a lot of press. I'm not going to go replay all the new class of drugs that we see and some of the obesity-fighting drugs and things like that. Those classes, I think, are likely going to show up first in a morbidity. I keep getting the question about mortality. I'm not sure I see that as the first place it's going to show up. So if you have like a disability business like we do, I think some of those changes are going to happen first in those blocks. Again, our disability block that we talked about earlier has really been the recipient of some nice market practice changes with some of the hybrid working, some of the knowledge worker base. We are pretty keenly watching how the employer groups are funding or not funding some of these classes of weight-loss drugs because that's going to really be telling in terms of the working population. Keep in mind that total population stats and working population stats tend to be completely different. So when I think of disability, our biggest exposures really are in that working population stat. So we're going to watch what the employers are doing, what they're funding or not funding related to some of those drug classes. What I would see on a preliminary basis is that there is some emerging evidence that those can be helpful on a more -- on a morbidity basis. But we also know that some of those younger age populations, some of the things that have happened, we would consider them -- we would put them on the category of like poisoning, but that would be like an opioid overdose, fentanyl, opioid, sort of deaths of despair, those are going to be in a broad category of business with us that we would say we have both seen and participated in kind of the uptick on some of those. So right now, net-net, with all the things happening, we're pretty neutral in terms of what we're seeing on mortality or morbidity basis over long periods of time. So over 5-year blocks of time or 10-year blocks of time, we haven't seen anything substantially move. We'll keep watching for that. We'll keep -- if we can get great wellness practices in the workplace, those tend to be a benefit for us. When we see that there's things like if people get great dental care and get -- go to their preventive visits and we have, for 5 or 10 years, had the disability product with them, we see some interesting trends on if people utilize their dental benefit, what happens with that same block of business with disability. So we're watching those trends on our own block pretty keenly over time. And right now, I would say too early to call anything.

Got it. Well, thank you so much, Amy, for joining us today. Thanks for everyone in the room. And hope you have a great day.

You bet. Thanks. Mike.

Thank you.