PT Bank CIMB Niaga Tbk (BNGA) Q4 FY2025 Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Okay. [Foreign Language] Good afternoon, everyone, and welcome to CIMB Niaga Full Year 2025 Earnings Conference Call. My name is Teguh Sunyoto, Investor Relations here at CIMB Niaga, and I will be moderating today's session. Joining with us today are Ibu Lani Darmawan, our President Director and CEO; Bapak Lee Kai Kwong, Strategy and Finance Director. Also present for the Q&A session are Bapak John Simon, Treasury and Capital Market Director; Bapak Rusly Johannes, Business Banking Director; and Bapak Henky Sulistyo, Risk Management Director. Before we begin, please note that today's presentation may contain forward-looking statements reflecting management's current expectations. These statements are subject to risks and uncertainties, and the actual results may differ materially from the projected or implied. Without further ado, I'm pleased to hand over the call to our CEO, Ibu Lani Darmawan. Over to you, Ibu Lani.

Yes. Thank you, Teguh. Good afternoon, everyone, and thank you for joining us today. [Foreign Language] Indonesia as well. As this is our first opportunity to meet you in 2026 and following the recent celebrations of Chinese New Year, may I begin by wishing you all healthy, prosperous and successful year in this year, of course. And for all friends, Muslim friends, [Foreign Language]. Again, I think it is a pleasure for us to reconnect again to you and to share our bank's performance and progress last year in 2025. We go through the next page. I will not go through this page. I think you can read it through. This is about overall our footprint in Indonesia. And we all know, I think more on macro highlights as well. So I'll just go through directly to the next page on our 2025 highlights. The next page. Yes. So moving to 2025 highlights, as you can see from this page, we managed to deliver a resilient CASA growth of 10.1%, reaching IDR 189.5 trillion, which maintained our funding stability, while loan growth was -- we kept it mild by design at 4.5%, which is in line with our risk appetite and as well as the market conditions to ensure the asset quality is good and good return for all our shareholders. So despite the challenging macro environment last year, we achieved a record revenue of IDR 19.4 trillion and PBT or Profit Before Tax of IDR 8.8 trillion, reflecting the resilience of our core franchise and business diversification. Our asset quality remains good. And our gross NPL stood at 1.81%, continue to do better performance versus the industry. And COC also declined to 0.74%, which being supported by our prudent underwriting as well as proactive portfolio management. We also continue to deliver a good return for shareholders while further strengthening our capital base, our CAR increasing to 24.8%. So overall, 2025 show our ability to balance the growth, but still profitable as well as being prudent. So this page illustrates our consistent value creation over the 5 -- over the past 5 years. So if we compare using a CAGR from 2021 to 2025, our earnings per share grew around 13.1%, you can see from this chart, reaching IDR 273.5 per share in 2025. At the same time, our book value per share increased by CAGR almost 13%, reaching IDR 2,802 per share, reflecting a discipline on our capital management as well as retaining our earnings growth. So this trend underlying that we are not only generating profit, but also building our long-term intrinsic value for all our shareholders. We go to the next page. Okay. So this chart shows CIMB Niaga positions versus our peers in terms of our ROE and Tier 1 capital growth. So majority of the [indiscernible] are actually here. We are positioned in a quadrant that reflects a balanced combination of profit and capital growth. So while some peers may show higher ROE or higher capital growth individually, we believe our positioning demonstrate a sustainable business model that prioritize our resilience and consistency rather than short-term optimization. And if we are looking at the capital ratio, we are also ready for further investment, whether it's an organic or inorganic when the time is actually right. So if we see the next page, yes, this is -- this chart shows our operational efficiency continue to improve. Domestic-wise, we are looking at our BOPO, which is reduced from around 79% in 2021, and we end up 2025 BOPO with 71%, placing us among the best-in-class within the industry in parallel for efficiency and gross NPL improved from 3.5% in 2021 to last year, we ended up with 1.8%. This also reflects our robust risk control and also better portfolio management and portfolio quality. So the combination of better efficiency and stronger asset quality, which actually supporting our sustainable profitability going forward, which I think this is complementing during a challenging economic conditions for almost the last 2 years. And this will prep us also to be ready for growth when the opportunity is actually available. The next page, this is about customer franchise, which actually remain our key growth engine. We continue to add new customers consistently and reaching around 1.8 million gross new customers in 2025. More importantly, the engagement continue to deepen. You can see from the right side, the digital transaction per customer is doubling versus 2021 and branchless transactions, so transaction outside of the branch per customer also increasing 1.5x. This indicates that the customer increasingly put their preference to CIMB Niaga at their primary transactions, which is critical for our CASA growth and also going forward for cross-sell opportunities. The next page, again, it sounds repetitive, but I should say that digital is actually the central of our strategy. In 2025, last year, we launched about 208 new features for OCTO and 11 new features for OCTO Biz for nonretail, enhancing functionality across payment, lending, wealth management as well as the overall servicing and customer experience. OCTO users last year reached almost 6 million customers, while transaction grew nearly 48% year-on-year to 515 million transactions. On the business side, the nonretail, OCTO business users grew 10,800 with our current account balances increased 18%, reaching IDR 106 trillion last year. So digital is actually a game changer as the cost per transaction is significantly cheaper compared to normal branch transactions. So it's 102x for OCTO and 70x for OCTO Biz cheaper. So digital channel now account for around 65% of our saving accounts opening coming from digital channels. And even for mortgages, 39% coming from acquisition from digital, demonstrating a strong monetization of our digital investment. But I think it's -- again, it sounds repetitive, but I just want to state that digital capabilities is important for us, which has contributed and proven to be contributing to our efficiency and will further contribute to our growth and profitability as this is part of our movement in SBF simpler, better and faster. We go to this page. So we remain committed to delivering attractive and sustainable shareholder returns. Cash dividend increased steadily over the last 5 years, reaching IDR 156 per share in 2025. So our fourth quarter rolling average share price has also appreciated significantly over time. So this translates into a 5-year cumulative shareholder return of 128%, reflecting our consistent performance and discipline on our capital allocation, again for shareholder returns. The next page. I think you know about this as we presented last year as well, but just as a reminder, so forward is our long-term strategy framework anchored on our purpose, advancing customers and society, meaning that we are assisting our customers and society, especially [Foreign Language] Indonesia to fulfill their aspirations and their dreams through our SBF services a simpler, better and faster service, which I can also see that for us is actually also cheaper. With the 4 C’s that we put consistently here, the Capital, CASA, Cross-sell and capabilities as our pillars to guide us on how we allocate resources and make our decisions. So all of these are underpinned by our ethics and values consistently and our way of work which is actually [indiscernible]. Next page. So our 2025 result is progressing toward our 2030, our F30 aspirations, although some metrics are on point or close to our aspirations. We recognize that there is still work needs to be done, especially in weathering a very challenging conditions, but we are particularly encouraged by the current trajectory and remain positive in our ability to close this gap over time. So I think I will just hand over to Pak KK, our CFO. [Foreign Language]

Okay. [Foreign Language] Ibu Lani, and a very good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. Welcome once again to our results briefing. I shall begin as usual with our balance sheet, starting with loans and really with a quite late push, total loans grew 4.2% quarter-on-quarter and ended the year 4.5% higher. In the fourth quarter, we also were able to crystallize some profits from our AFS bonds, and that brought down our total bonds portfolio by 8.6% quarter-on-quarter and for the year, 8.9%. Some of the proceeds from this bond sell-down, you can see now sitting in cash, right? It's gone up by 13.2% for the year, up 32 -- 37.2%, just sitting there, waiting for the right opportunity to reenter the bond market. Overall, total assets were up about 0.9% or 1% quarter-on-quarter, ending the year higher by 3.5%. On our liabilities, CASA momentum cooled off a little bit in the fourth quarter, but still closed the year very good, higher by 10.1% with current account up a very impressive 13.3% and savings account delivering a 7.6% year-on-year growth. In the fourth quarter also, we continue and decided not to compete aggressively for time deposit, allowing some expensive time deposits to attract, and that brought our balance down by 9.1% in the quarter and for the year ended 8.5% lower. Our capital position strengthened further with shareholders' equity gaining another 3.3% in the quarter and 9.3% throughout 2025. Over to the next page, let's walk through the P&L, starting with interest income. Interest income was down 2.1% quarter-on-quarter, as you will see in the subsequent pages also, we saw loans and bond yield started contracting settling in. This is also after 5 rate cuts that we saw -- that we saw last year, right? For the year, interest income did manage to improve 1.8%. Interest expense eased by 2.7%, which is a good news for us in the fourth quarter, but yet for the year, it was still higher by 2.1%. On NOII, it was down 29.4%. I just want to highlight that there's some bit of noise in this with some loan reclassification, which I'll explain in Page 20. A normalized comparison would be looking at the year-on-year numbers, which show a growth of 5.5% on noninterest income. Operating expenses was higher by 7.2% quarter-on-quarter, bringing the year-on-year expense growth to 6.5%, which I'll also go through where it all went through. Loan loss provision or ECL was lower by 71% quarter-on-quarter. Again, this is the flip side of the impact of the loan recovery reclassification. The year-on-year number, again, would be a comparable measure where we lower credit cost by 6.6%. So bottom line, PBT improved 1.1% year-on-year in a year where I feel we show earnings resiliency as we navigate through an operating environment that may not really be conducive for growth. So over to Page 19. So on the profitability metrics, we saw a slight decline. ROA down 10 basis points year-on-year from 2.5% to 2.4%, still a good result in our opinion. Result -- return on equity was lower by 1.3%, 130 basis points to 13% as we saw the accumulation of retained earnings growing much faster than our PAT. NIM was also lower by 12 basis points year-on-year as we continue to drive lower deposit cost to offset the declining asset yield, which we saw in the 2025. Also, we like what we are seeing here on our liquidity with CASA ratio improving to 70%, LDR moving up to a more ideal position of 86.8%. Most of all the asset quality metrics remained strong as we closed the year with NPL below 2%, LAR now below 7%, coverage on impairments are 110%. Cost of credit as a consequence of the much stronger asset quality came down by another 10 basis points to 74 basis points. Okay. Next page on NIMs. So maybe I'll share some insight on NIMs. Year-on-year NIMs experienced a decline of 12 basis points where in the fourth quarter, we saw loan yields really beginning to come off 18 basis points. Again, this was 5 -- after 5 rate cuts in 2025, the last one in September 2025. For the year, loan yields were down a total of 32 basis points. So in the same period, we also saw a deliberate one to bring down the cost of deposit. We saw the cost of deposit down 30 basis points, not as fast as how the loan yield has fallen. But the encouraging news is the fourth quarter, we saw the cost of deposits down 19 basis points. So very quickly, it's falling off through some very tough pricing discipline for deposits. Okay. Over to the next page. Now here, maybe I'll start by explaining the loan recovery numbers first. The quarter-on-quarter NOII number was down 29.4% is largely due to listing. So the attribution is really the reclassification of a loan recovery that were recorded as NOII in the third quarter and then subsequently reversed in the fourth quarter NOII line to be record -- and then recorded into the ECL release line on the advice of our auditors when they close the books. So on a normalized basis, NOII have shown a decline of 2.1% quarter-on-quarter or 5.5% year-on-year growth. So on the other NOII lines, fees and commissions were lower by 7.3% weaker -- on weaker sales in the fourth quarter. But for the year, it still ended up delivering an 8.9% growth. Our Treasury and Markets business posted another strong quarter. This is in spite of a decline of 7.6% versus the previous quarter. But overall, for the year, it grew 30% with sales up 8.8% and the risk-taking side of the treasury business up 86%. Next page, please. For operating expense, I'll focus on the year-on-year comparison. Overall, cost was up 6.5% year-on-year. People costs, personnel costs, which represented -- which represents 60% of our expenses was up 3.1%, very much in line with our personnel cost control measures. PAT cost was also about a manageable 4.4%. Other expenses, which includes establishment costs, marketing, admin and general services costs was up 17%. Now most of these increases were attributed to expenses in preparation for Sharia spin-off later this year, which includes infrastructure build as well. We continue our pursuit for more structural cost takeouts, optimizing branch, ATMs, EDCs while at the same time, increase our efforts to direct traffic to digital channel, ultimately to drive the lower cost to serve. Next page, please. Okay. On to loans. Loans ended 4.5% higher. And really, the push came from the corporate banking side in the fourth quarter. So for the year, all 4 segments experienced growth with consumer banking gaining 3.4%, led by auto loans, while SME was up 2%. And in the same period, commercial bank and corporate bank both ended higher 3.2% and 6.7%, respectively. Over to deposits now. Total deposits declined 2.7%, but end up delivering a 3.8% growth year-on-year. As you can see here, we are still very much focused on CASA. We closed the quarter with CASA higher by 0.4%, taking the year-on-year growth to 10.1%. I mentioned about the time deposit earlier, the decline was deliberate as we saw a lot of liquidity coming in already. Over to the next page on asset quality. Yes. Okay. Three measures right on the LAR, Loan At Risk. All these components shows quarter-to-quarter improvement with NPL lowered to 1.8%. Special mention also improved from 3.7% to 3.3%. Total restructured loans down from 2% to 1.8%. You also noticed on the bar chart below that the cost of credit has come down to 0.4%. This is because of the reclassification of that NOII to ECL release. On a normalized basis, the cost of credit would have been almost 0.7% for the previous quarter and 0.7% for the fourth quarter. So on the coverage side, still very healthy, 198% NPL coverage ratio, impairment ratio above 110% and LAR maintained its coverage over 50%. And on to the last page on the strength of our franchise, really looking at the liquidity position and the capital position. LCR maintained above the 200% level, NSFR above 110%. And LDR, we would like it to inch a little bit higher, but it did improve from the 81.6% to 86.8%. CAR, I think at 24.8% is perhaps a historic high together with the CET1 of 23.7%, right, in spite of RWA consumption increasing in the fourth quarter. Okay. That's it from me. I'll hand the session back to Ibu Lani for her closing remarks and then take questions thereafter. Thank you.

Well, thank you, KK. So next page. Let me close by highlighting 5 key takeaways from -- key takeaways that we put for 2026 moving forward this year. So first, I think we have officially kick started our Forward30, which is actually 2030 long-term strategy, starting last year 2025. And despite the challenging environment, we were able to close the year with quite a resilient outcome. Second, we recognize that the external environment remains uncertain in 2026. Volatility in global markets, geopolitical developments and domestic macro conditions require us to remain agile, remain focused as well as disciplined. Number three, we will pursue prudent loan growth continue 2026, while continuing to place a strong emphasis on asset quality as well as operational efficiency. Number four, we also expect margins to gradually stabilize, supported by further improvement in our CASA ratio and more balanced funding mix. We can see from the last 2 months, for example, cost of fund is actually trending down. And finally, we remain committed to delivering sustainable long-term value through a consistent and disciplined execution for our F2030 strategy. So we understand that despite the macroeconomic challenge, our domestic opportunity is still quite high which is actually going forward, this is one of the areas that we will be focusing without going down into the credit curve. So I actually still have one more page in terms of the guidance. Do we have it? Yes. Okay, here. This is the guidance for 2026 from us. So loan growth, we are guiding -- our guidance is actually within the range of still 3% to 5%, consistent with our focus on quality, more to quality growth. So for Net Interest Margin, for NIM, we expect a range between 3.9% to 4.1%, reflecting a gradual stabilization of CASA improvement. On COC, our guideline is actually between 0.9% to 1.1% which incorporate more normalized credit cost environment while still reflecting our prudent approach on risk. For cost-to-income ratio, CIR, we expect to maintain discipline between 45% to 46% broadly for 2026. And finally, on ROE, our guidelines is actually between 12.5% to 13.5% for 2026, reflecting our continued focus on just balancing the profitability resilience and the strength of our capital. So I think in overall, the target reflects a more measured and responsible outlook for 2026. So we continue progressing toward our medium and long-term aspirations. So I think that will conclude our presentations today. Back to Teguh. Thank you.

Thank you, Ibu Lani and Pak KK for the presentation. So let's move on to the Q&A session.

[Operator Instructions] I think we can go to the first question. Our first question comes from us Harsh Modi from JP. Harsh, please proceed.

I had a couple of questions. First on the provision guidance. Why 1%? Is there any risk that it is higher than 1% credit costs? And I have a follow-up on cost of funds. Any segment like any more details that you can share as to which segments are driving this possibility of higher provisions?

I think I'll take that one by one, Harsh.

Yes.

So I think, again, just like what KK mentioned earlier, the guidelines on COC is particularly -- this is more like stabilization because there is still a little bit of one-off that we have from 2025. That's one thing. And the second is actually, we can see some light that retail loan on auto and mortgage is actually going a little bit stronger. So we are actually setting some composition a little bit more in that area, which -- but particularly in terms of overall, the healthiness of portfolio is still very, very good in overall return.

Right. So is there any particular segment which is a normalization, I understand, but growth seems to be a bit -- so is there any segment where you have grown faster or you are seeing some early signs of weakness? Or it is just that normalization and nothing to read into?

Yes. No, I don't think there's some deteriorations of each of segments or businesses. This is number one. The biggest impact is actually on normalization. But the second, there is some -- a little bit of a composition coming from retail, not deterioration, but compositions of the loans, because we also see that a little balancing between consumer and EBB. If you see the market info and market actual data, EBB loans will not be having high trajectory as usual. So we mild it down a little bit. And while we can -- we start to see November, December pick up a good pickup without downgrading the customer segment on mortgages because the way we look at it in the market is that several banks who are actually aggressive in mortgage start to reduce the target on mortgage because majority, they are coming in with low rate, but we can come in with good processes actually. And it shows the trajectory in November and December.

Yes. If I can add a little bit Ibu Lani to Harsh. I mean -- because relatively, I mean, on consumer, especially like the unsecured credit card, we have like auto write-off policy, right? So of course, we want to grow, keep the growth still prudently. But relatively, we need a higher COC than in non-retail.

Yes. Harsh, also, we've been in some conservatism here also our provisioning models have MEF impact in that. We've also built in deteriorating macro factors that will also give us a little bit of increase also in overall provisions.

Is there any coverage ratio number or LLR loans number that we should look at or not really?

Can you repeat your question, Harsh?

Is there any coverage number or LLR to loans number that we should look at or not really to anchor our expectations?

Even the segment that you want to focus.

No, no. In terms of provisions, is there a coverage ratio that you are looking at which -- where you would be comfortable loan loss -- NPL coverage ratio or any loan loss reserves as a percentage of loans that number you would be looking at?

Yes. The one that we observed more dearly is really the loan loss coverage on impairment. Above 100% is where we want to be at. Now we are quite comfortably at the 112% number.

And sorry, the second question on cost of funds, if I may. There seems to be an improvement and your NIM guidance is for -- looks like slight improvement if I take the median versus 2025. Is that driven primarily on this cost of fund that is sustaining? Or is it the mix shift and you are able to get better pricing power on lending?

Yes. I think it's a combination of many things. As we can see that the cost of fund is actually declining for the past 2 to 3 months. But of course, in the other part as well, across the BU, customers, we also expect lower loan yield. So that's why we also weather that with a little bit of a change of composition, looking at the good sign that we can see from retail coming in, right? So they are coming from several particularly. But one of the biggest part is actually the cost of fund.

Yes. So there have been still quite a bit of pricing discipline on deposits because with this easing of liquidity, we feel that we did not have to really go out and compete for expensive deposits unlike maybe 6 months ago, right, when the yield curve started to come down, right, we did see an opportunity for us to sell some of our bonds that ease our liquidity position as well. So really, because of that, we are able to just shed some of the expensive ones and maintain our focus on CASA, which is a much more cheaper deposits.

That makes sense. You have invested a lot here.

Right. If you are looking at month-on-month, for example, Harsh, there is a very definite data that we can say that cost of fund is actually trending down. Say, for example, if you're looking at the September, 3.43; November, 3.3; December, 3:08 which actually includes all the marketing money inside it. And then we also cut the OE and yet CASA especially continue to grow. I think it's quite healthy with 10.1%, where actually we're pairing it with LDR, how much that we can swallow in terms of assets and loans versus our liquidity.

Thank you, Harsh. Yes. At the moment, we don't have any questions from the attendees. Let's wait for -- okay. We have a question actually from Kresna, yes. Kresna Hutabarat from Mandiri Sekuritas.

I just have 2 questions. My first question is actually on the -- would you be able to comment on the progress of the bank's expansion in Tier 2 and Tier 3 cities, especially in terms of CASA and loan growth? And should we be able to expect strong growth from these regions considering the stronger fiscal push into these areas in 2026? So to understand the degree of success on the expansion there? I'll give my first question. I'll move on to the second question later on.

Thank you, Pak Kresna. Well, [ Foreign Language ] which we call focus and curious. So we are focusing on starting with 18 cities 1.5 years ago and now to 30 cities. And for actual data showing is that the CASA growth, the loan growth within those cities, secondary and tertiary cities is actually much higher, much larger. So it's proven. Now the point for us, we understand since the beginning, this strategy will not straight away giving result within 1 year, even 1.5 years. But it's definite within the 30 cities that we are in is actually much higher. So currently, we are putting on some fixing and enhancing in some of the areas because we are not only focusing on CASA now including retail and SME loans. In some points, secondary cities, there are also commercial banking loans. And asset quality-wise, it is also very good. So it's not only CASA gains, but in overall revenue per customer gains. The way that we look at it, we will start to see the result within the next 6 months to 12 months because that will be the full implementation after we fix and enhance during 1.5 years of our project on F30. And we also plan to expand the F30 further.

Okay. That's very encouraging to hear. My next question is actually on the government's potential plan to increase the free float minimum requirement. Would you have any view on how it would impact CIMB Niaga in terms of the free float rate going forward? What's the plan there? And what is the management thinking or going to do about it?

Yes. Well, we definitely will comply to that. But I think the latest information that I have as well that this will be gradual. So far, it's been stated that the 15% will need to be achieved within 3 years. So currently, we are waiting for the real regulations and [Foreign Language] to be able to do it. So there are several that we discuss with the shareholders, with our group office as well on this.

So our next question is from Andrey Wijaya from RHB, Andrey, go ahead.

I have one or two questions on the loan growth. I want to give color on the loan demand right now and especially in terms of the loan yield. Do you see there is declining on the loan yield or maybe the -- would you give color on the loan yield right now? It is my first question.

Okay, Andrey [Foreign Language]. So I think from banking industry, I think everybody should really see the cost of funds trending down and then liquidity in the market is not as high. So customers are also looking at it and the demand from customers is actually also lower yield. We understand that. If we don't really move in competitions, there is a risk that we will not get the business. But one of the things is that the loan demand are not really increasing, so the way we look at it is CIMB Niaga is actually the market for loan is still high because, again, we are not #1 players in loans in the market. Market shares vary. Mortgage, for example, market share is about 7% to 8%. But then in certain cities, again, we reach 15%. But then the other part, the other business in corporate and et cetera, usually our market share is actually still less than 5%. So we are not go crazy about those. But I think the loan yield will also come down. But in the other hand, cost of funds also come down. But the challenge, just like what you're asking, the challenge for us is actually, again, the wait and see from the players on the investors, the real sectors. So demand will also be depending on those.

Okay. My second question more on the spin-off in the Sharia unit. We know that last year, there is increased operational cost because of the Sharia unit spin-off OpEx. Is the cost will be still exist for this year? And then the second question, what is the long-term strategy for the Sharia unit after the spin-off?

Maybe I'll take the question on cost first, right? Yes, the Sharia spin-off is a very expensive exercise, right? Just for consultants alone, it cost us in the region of $2 million to $3 million. That's almost $45 million to $50 million over the next -- from last year until this year, just for operational readiness, ensuring that we have the right target operating model for legal day 1. So that will continue into 2026, but will be a little lesser because most of the costs we have already built in or accrued in 2025. There will also be this year, if we spin-off this year, a lot of rebranding, refitting of a lot of our branches and moving assets from one entity to another that we attract tax and stuff like that. Yes, all in all, we expect additional, right? [indiscernible] spin-off, we don’t want to spend another [indiscernible] is what we're going to spend this year as a result of the spin-off. So that's for the operational readiness. But maybe on the strategy side, maybe Lani can shed some light.

Thank you, KK. Again, cost practically it's not only on cost. I think the even more expensive is actually is more on, say, for example, system IT and operational readiness because there is some compulsory to separate some here and there, including reporting agreement that we need to really enhance and separate. So tax related and et cetera, so majority of those. It's not only the pre-cost. I think the pre-cost is actually less compared to those preparation costs that we need to provide is like what KK mentioning. Now long-term strategy, we are looking at it as an opportunity in the long run. But we don't portray this in 2026 because this is of preparations as well. So in overall, we are looking at least starting 2028 to 2030. This is an uplift for us looking ahead, but not until 2027, the way we look at it because of the preparations. Again, if you're looking at our portfolio right now, so half of the Sharia portfolio is actually the non-Muslim community because we are implementing a strategy of Sharia first. So whoever talking to us is actually -- the default product is Sharia. But once that -- this is a spin-off, even though that will still continue, but Sharia will have a different target segment, which apparently not really that much in our portfolio right now, but quite sufficient in the market, which currently is still being taken by the big brother, which is actually big [indiscernible]. So this is for us for our strategy is actually we go to the Islamic community. And we are looking at the performance from our [indiscernible] Sharia 2025. We did some testing in 2025. So Sharia such as having a different target market, the whole 2025, and we can see the difference and the difference of opportunity, which is not in our old Sharia first portfolio. And to us, there's an opportunity. But of course, we need time to be able to grab all the opportunities. So it's a new frontier, I should say.

Okay. I think that will be our final question, Ibu Lani. There is no more question in the queue. I know probably we can conclude the call. I will now hand the call back to you Ibu Lani.

Yes. Well, thank you so much, Ibu and Bapak for attending our 2025 performance today. Again, thank you, and thank you also for your support. Stay healthy and happy. Bye-bye.

Thank you, Ibu Lani.