PT Lippo Karawaci Tbk (LPKR) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Okay. Probably we will start now. Okay. Good afternoon, everyone. Thank you for attending 9 months 2023 Lippo Karawaci Earnings Call Presentations on Monday, 30th of October 2023. Please welcome equity investors, bond investors, institutional and retail investors, regulators and rating agency. We are delighted to announce our results today. For introductions, I'm Randi Prathama, Head of Investor Relations. With me today are Mr. John Riady, Asset Group CEO of Lippo Karawaci; and Mr. Daniel Phua, Asset Group CFO of Lippo Karawaci. Without further ado, Mr. Daniel continue with the results presentation. [Operator Instructions] Daniel, let me start the slide.

Hi, good afternoon. Welcome, analysts and investors to the call today. I will take you through our 9 month '23 financial results firstly, before opening the floor to more Q&A. FY '23 so far has been a stable year for Lippo Karawaci. You see that the revenue has grown by 18% to IDR 12.4 trillion and EBITDA has grown by 41% to IDR 3.089 trillion. As a result, mainly, as you can see, of contributions from the healthcare segment of the business. Healthcare's EBITDA has grown by 29%, compared to real estate with a slight growth of 13% and lifestyle relatively flat compared to the year before. If we were to look at the revenue down to NPAT, you will notice that revenue has grown by 18%, EBITDA by 41% and NPAT, if we were to look at the underlying NPAT actually grew by 16%. So this reflects a stable operational environment, whereby we were able to realize improved performance year-on-year. The NPAT, as I alluded to previously, we split it into the underlying NPAT. The underlying NPAT basically excludes mainly the impact of the FX movements to get a better sense of the operational performance. As you can see, the underlying NPAT performance is a positive IDR 48 billion. The NPAT, obviously, is IDR 788 billion because of one-off events, such as the liability management exercise that was conducted earlier in the year. If we were to look at the breakdown -- sorry, the previous slide, please. If we were to look at the breakdown between the various segments, we will note that the healthcare EBITDA has grown from IDR 1.5 trillion in 9-month '22 to IDR 2.1 trillion. Similarly, we have seen a growth in quarterly results from IDR 681 billion to IDR 830 billion as well. Real estate similarly grew from IDR 420 billion to IDR 705 billion, whereas the quarter-on-quarter results dropped slightly compared to the quarter before. But as we all understand, the real estate's EBITDA is affected by the cyclical natures of the handover. So I would say that the 9-month result is probably more important as parameters of the company's performance. Lifestyle's EBITDA has remained relatively flat compared to the year before, whilst traffic in some of the first-tier cities have recovered. We have found that the traffic in some of the second-tier cities and the smaller malls have struggled to perform. And therefore, relatively speaking, we find that the performance this year compared to last year is relatively flat. Looking at operating cash flow. I'm happy to report that we now have a positive operating cash flow of IDR 662 billion from our operating activities and along with IDR 488 billion of investing cash flow, mainly as a result of investments into medical equipment and new hospitals from Siloam Hospitals. These 2 combined gives us a positive free cash flow and which is very different from what it was the year before. And again, I think this shows that the company is now in the stage whereby it is able to generate stable FCF year-on-year to be able to finance future growth or be it the dividends of the company going forward. Financing, as you can see, is a net negative, which means that we -- for a net basis, we have reduced our debt, which brings cash to IDR 2.3 trillion at the end of September 2023, compared to IDR 2.6 trillion at the beginning of the period. The debt profile remains healthy. You'll see that more than half of our debt is denominated in the IDR as a result of the liability management exercise that was conducted at the start of the year. The debt-to-equity ratios similarly has seen a decrease from 0.66 in 2022, down to 0.59 in 9 months of 2023. You would recall, we have a strong hedging positions on our bonds in terms of both the '25 and '26 bonds, it is hedged 100%. Whereas the 100% of the 2026 interest is also hedged. Now I'll take you through some of the segmental performance, starting with real estate. In real estate, in regard to property development, in 9 months of '23, we have achieved 68.5% of the FY '23 marketing sales targets that we have announced. So we do believe that we will be on track to achieve the full year marketing sales forecast. This is supported by the launch of 59 residential projects along with 1 low rise, 1 mid-rise, 7 high rise and 17 shophouses projects (sic) [ 14 shophouses projects ]. Some of the notable projects in 3Q '23 include Cendana Gard’'n Serene, The Hive @Essence and also at Lippo Cikarang, the Cendana Spark North, The Hive @COSMO and The Hive @Uptown. As you can see, these projects have been launched successfully with good take-up. And that helped the financial performance for real estate as well, driven by our timely handover to arrive at a result of IDR 3.3 trillion, driven by 18% year-on-year improvement. The key takeaways and going forward is that we would continue to focus on strategy, which is in delivering innovative products to the Indonesian community at a price point that will be affordable. But at the same time, a fourth chic and modern living at locations that are central. This is evidence, for example, in the launch of the Park Serpong project in Saturday, which has been a successful launch, supported by a good turnout in the launch event. The marketing sales momentum in the last 3 years provide a very strong foundation for our future growth going forward. As mentioned, our target of IDR 4.9 trillion marketing sales, we do believe will be achieved by the end of the year, supported by a number of successful launches, including the launch of Park Serpong during the weekend. The land bank in the Lippo Karawaci is also one of the strongest amongst peers with over 1,000 hectares of land bank in Jakarta, Greater Jakarta and the Makassar area, giving us 25-plus years of remaining land bank to develop. In regard to the split in marketing sales, you will see that 80% of the amount still coming mainly from landed housing, in line with our objective to be able to help young homeowners to be able to own their own homes. And the remainder is made up of shophouses, mid-rise and SOHO properties. The payment mode as a result, you will see that it's mainly by mortgages, 68% by mortgages and 16% by cash and 16% by installments. Following are some highlights of properties that have been developed during the year, as I mentioned earlier, including the Cendana Gard’'n and Cendana Spark, The Hive series. And we have also handed over a significant number of units during 9-month '23 as well, resulting in the increase in revenue and EBITDA in the real estate, as highlighted earlier. Some of the product focus, I'll probably let you go through and look through in further detail. I will not go through this in detail one by one. And perhaps I would end that and ask CEO, by John Riady for any further comments in regard to the real estate segment.

Thank you, Daniel, and good afternoon to all of you on this call. I think Daniel has highlighted a couple of important points. I generally share Daniel's views. I'll just add a couple of things, which is to say that I think overall, sales in the last quarter continue to be pretty much on plan. As I've consistently shared over the last couple of quarters, our strategy really is to continue to diversify our sales strategy and to come up with different products at different price points and different geographical areas to be able to reach out to the different pockets of demand across the country. And that has contributed to the steadily growing marketing sales that we've achieved over the last 6 to 8 quarters. And so generally, that will continue to be our focus and we'll continue to be disciplined and focus on the execution of that strategy. And so it looks like we're pretty much on track to deliver our full year numbers at this rate. At the same time, I think we also recognize the continued, I would say, subdued demand environment in Indonesia. And you add on to this, some additional uncertainties around increasingly higher for longer interest rates and what impact that might have on the demand environment. So over the next couple of quarters, we'll continue to monitor this very closely. My sense is the environment will be, at best, stable. Stable to slightly lower, especially as we get closer and closer to the election year -- elections next year. The first one in February, and it seems like a second one around May or June. So typically, leading up to events like that people tend to wait and see on larger ticket items. And so all these factors then contribute to a more uncertain operating environment over the next 3 to 4 quarters. So all them are reason for us to stay focused and disciplined under the strategy. But so far, I think the results are reasonably -- I'm reasonably pleased with the results, and we're pretty much on track to deliver our full year marketing sales guidance.

Okay. Thank you, John. Moving on to healthcare. Healthcare has successfully moved itself out of the shadow of COVID. As you can see, it has had 5 quarters of sustained quarter-on-quarter growth. The results comes in at a revenue of IDR 6.37 trillion for year-to-date 2023, EBITDA of close to IDR 2 trillion and a net profit of IDR 884 billion. You will see that the margins have similarly expanded over the period as well. The quarter-on-quarter growth between 2Q to 3Q is significant. EBITDA grew by 22% and net profit grew by 42%, supported by a growth of 12% in revenue. EBITDA margin, as you can see, is 30.6% in 9-month '23 versus 25.9% in 9-month '22. So this is basically a higher margins that what was being experienced during the COVID era as a result of successful executions of a number of efficiency programs in the Siloam. The reason that Siloam is able to drive its revenue growth is supported by industry-leading revenue intensity. This is driven by the Siloam 5.0 strategy of focusing on high complexity clinical programs. Siloam has a view to make sure that the Indonesians, who require complex services can get these services in Indonesia instead of having to travel to other countries such as Singapore and Malaysia. So we have continued even during the COVID time to invest in machines such as LINAC, Gamma Knife machines in order to ensure that Indonesians can get best healthcare services in Indonesia without having to travel abroad. As a result of this strategy, you will notice that our average revenue per bit and per patient base are significantly higher compared to the industry. And this is basically a direct reflection of the strategy that has been taken to focus on clinical complexity. Quarter-on-quarter, you will notice that the operational results have been stable as well. In-patient admissions is up 12%. Out-patient visits is up 15% and quarter-on-quarter, occupancy rate sits at a very healthy 68.2%, with a very healthy average length of state of around 3.1 days and the conversion ratio from outpatients to IPD of around 3%. The improve in margins for the healthcare business has been based on a number of strategies that management have taken in order to look at optimizing and improving the productivities of various cost items. For example, drugs and clinical supplies, as a percentage of revenue, have come down from 35.1% in 4Q '19, which was our last normal non-COVID quarter, down to 28.5% of revenue. Operating expenses, as you can see, similarly has come down from 36.1% pre-COVID, down to 28.8% in 3Q '23. This has helped the EBITDA margin improved from 18.4% in pre-COVID up to 32.4% today and a net profit margin of 16.1% versus 3.2% pre-COVID. We do believe that the journey that is still long. We still believe that there are room for us to further improve the management of drugs, supplies and OpExs. There has been various measures to consolidate volume to look at reducing the SKUs that has been used for drugs and for consumables, but we do believe that there's still further room to improve going forward. The shift in payee group in healthcare has similarly helped in terms of the shift in margins. You will notice that the private or the non BPJS segment now accounts for 82.2% of the revenue as opposed to 81.5% in 9 months of '22. You will note that the private, OPE, corporate and insurance business continue to grow quarter-on-quarter. In 3Q '23, it grew 13% compared to the quarter before. As mentioned, the clinical complexities is supported by what we now call CONGO. It stands for cardiac, oncology, neuro, gastro and orthopedics. These are the 5 key areas where we do believe that Indonesians are currently underserved in terms of the complexity and the range of services that are available and it represent areas that management have invested over the past. This graph basically gives you the sense that of these 5 key corp group, we have seen an increase quarter-on-quarter in regard to both the throughput and also the average revenue. We are also excited to talk about a few hospitals that we're currently working on. There's an extension we are building at the Lippo Village hospitals. We are working on an extension in the Makassar hospitals as well, along with the Bekasi hospitals. Our Surabaya hospitals has one of our flagship hospitals, but it is over 20 years old. So we do intend to build a brand-new hospital next to it with first state-of-the-art facilities. In addition to physical infrastructures and hospitals, we have also continued to invest in digital channel. Patients booking through digital channel for outpatients now accounted for about 500,000 annually. Patients can now basically submit feedback through the SOFAS platform that have been introduced. And currently, we track the complaints and there is a KPI around that. And we currently have a target, and we do resolve 80% of our complaints within 24 hours. There's continued growth in the digital channels, such as Whastapp, LiveChat, tele-chat, digital services, the ability to book appointment online, the ability to be able to deliver pharmaceutical drugs, I mean, through Grab or GoJek. And these are all services that Siloam have invested in, in order to make our patient experience more seamless. So in addition to expanding the range and complexity of services we provide. We do want to make sure that we provide the best-of-class experience for patients coming through to Siloam. Moving on to lifestyle. The 9-month '23 more revenue has increased 12% year-on-year to IDR 410 billion. And this is propelled, obviously, by better malls foot traffic during Lebaran and during school holiday. We do see more visitors increasing by 9% year-on-year to 69%, compared to 63% the year before, demonstrating a steady recovery. At this stage, we do expect a full recovery to pre-pandemic traffic by 2024. This will be supported by the few asset enhancement initiative that has been conducted. For example, Gajah Mada Plaza, which will fully open with its new look in 4Q '23. Hotel revenue have also improved by 23% year-on-year to IDR 317 billion. EBITDA grew by 28% year-on-year to IDR 119 billion. This, again, is supported by post-COVID recovery, various government and MICE events. Average room rate have improved 13% year-on-year and occupancy has also improved by 4% year-on-year. We are proud to say that Aryaduta Hotels was awarded one of the Top 10 Brands in Asia by the Asia Business Outlook for 2022. There are certain pockets of activities that haven't fully recovered. For example, the Chinese tourists Manado, is still not what it was pre-pandemic, but we do see that with the continued opening up of the economy and the greater travel opportunities being offered, we do see that trend improving next year going forward as well. As a result, you will see that 9 month '23 results have generally improved. Malls revenue have improved by 14% (sic) [ 12%], yes. EBITDA did decrease by 26% as a result of a certain change in the rental structures, which we do believe that in the long term, we'll have more significant benefits. There were also certain one-off events that was booked in the 9 month of '22 that once normalized, you will see that EBITDA is right to be flat compared to the year before. Hotel revenue and EBITDA have improved by 23% and 28%, respectively, based on what I mentioned earlier in regard to continued post-COVID recovery. On traffic, mall visitors business have improved by 11% year-on-year. We have a stable occupancy rate. Hotel occupancy rate is currently still about 7% below the pre-COVID level, whereas the average room rate being charged, as you can see, are already surpassing the pre-COVID level and represent a 13% improvement year-on-year. Lippo remain -- Karawaci remains firmly committed to a sustainability strategies. We believe that in all our business segments, sustainability cannot be an afterthought. It has to be a key driver in all that we do. As a result, we have focused heavily in terms of management attentions, in terms of reporting framework, in order to ensure that we are fully committed to deliver an integrated sustainable business. We have set priorities in environmental area to look at decarbonization, to look at improving water circulatory, improving waste recycling. We have implemented various social engagement framework and community health program. At the governance level, there has been significant improvement in the government processes in both internal financials governance and also climate risk governance and mandatory ESG training and integrations of ESG KPIs and monitoring throughout all our business reportings. The reporting standards and commitments that we have worked on are aligned with the GRI TCFD standards and so forth. We do want to make sure that Lippo Karawaci is seen as a leader in pushing forward our ESG initiative. In regard to governance, we have set up an ESG committee, along with the ESG Steering Group and this group has the key functions of coordinating the ESG activities in all our business units. We are in the process of implementing automated solutions to improve the gathering of ESG data. We do have a vision of being able to enhance the quality of life, being able to care for our environment, invest in our people and always championing the best practices. We have set rigorous KPI for ourselves in regards to our sustainability agenda, looking at -- making sure that we are able to deliver affordable housing, accessible healthcare, committed engagements, how do we reduce water consumption, water treatment, waste disposal, ensuring continued focus on health and safety, training development, along with championing best practices in business ethics and compliance. As you can see from this dashboard here, we have set rigorous target. And in most instances, we have been achieved or outperformed the targets that we have set for ourselves. Internally, there are rigorous framework that have been set up to monitor the achievement of these targets and to take appropriate corrective actions when we noticed certain targets are not being achieved. Some of the sustainability highlights. Again, I will not read this one by one, but we are proud of some of the achievement that was possible through what has been launched, especially the social engagement framework of PASTI in regard to education environment, social, health and economic. Siloam, for example, had various SELANGKAH events, focusing on promoting the awareness of cancer and breast cancers. That's culminated in the Run for Hope event MRCCC that was attended by over 3,000 attendees and it helped to also provide, for example, free mammography to underprivileged groups in order to ensure that all have access to quality healthcare and early cancer treatment and detections. We are proud to announce also that 2 of our biggest malls, Sun Plaza Medan and Lippo Mall Puri has been awarded the much covered EDGE green building certifications. The EDGE green building certifications does go through a robust number of metrics and assessments. It's not an easy certification to get, and we are very proud of the 2 malls achievements, and we are also focusing these efforts on other malls as well in order to looking at achieving similar certifications. As a final slide, looking forward, as John has highlighted earlier, there are certainly various economic uncertainty in regard to the macroeconomic environment with U.S. interest rate, with the war in Ukraine and potentially Middle East and with the real estate, with the elections of next year's and inflation and interest environments. We remain cautiously optimistic, yes. At the moment, we do still see a strong domestic demand for owner-occupied housing. And it is a segment that we continue to excel in. We are excited by the launch of our Park Serpong projects that were well attended last weekend. We will continue, as John mentioned, to look at very products at different price points to be able to appeal to the consumers need and demand going forward. Healthcare, we believe, will remain a cornerstone of Lippo Karawaci's business going forward. Post-COVID, we do believe that there is a greater awareness in the need for quality health care. And we have seen an increased demand for even the basic services like the medical checkup and so forth. But more importantly, we do see that by being able to focus on high complexity clinical programs, we are able to attract a lot of patients that otherwise would have gone overseas for their medical treatments. And this allows us to establish a long-term relationship with our patients as we progress and build a partnership with them to improve the healthcare. The lifestyle businesses have continued its recovery. We see the quarter-on-quarter results have improved as a result of post-COVID recovery. There are certain pockets whereby performance is still below pre-COVID level, but by and large, as I mentioned, in top-tier cities, both our hotels and malls are performing above the pre-COVID level. And we do believe that domestic demand remain key to drive occupations. We have seen some downsizing of key tenants, which would affect the performance for malls, but this basically propels the most to invest and focus more on the boutique and smaller tenants, which actually has a better average revenue rate compared to the anchor tenants. And this is all for me in regard to the financial performance for 9 months of 2023. I'll maybe pass the time to John for any closing remarks before I open the floor for Q&A.

Thank you, Daniel. I think let's jump right into the Q&A.

Okay.

Happy to take a couple of the questions here on the chat box. Randi, a quick question. Is everyone able to see these questions?

No, you need to read it again.

Okay. I'll sort of repeat some of the questions. The first bucket of questions that I'll respond to is with regard to our bonds. There seems to be 2 or 3 questions here on LPKR and [ Lamira ] bonds. We have no plans to refinance our LPKR bonds. So I hope that answers the questions related to the LPKR bonds. All the exercises we've done earlier this year have been completed. And so at the moment, there are no further plans related to the LPKR bonds. With regard to the [ Lamira ] bonds, this is an issue that we have been following closely over the last couple of quarters. As you may have seen, I believe, in the middle of October, October 16, [ Lamira ] announced that it had successfully refinanced approximately SGD 245 million of its bank loans. Of the SGD 245 million, [ Lamira ] paid off about, I think you have about SGD 50 million, and the remainder was refinanced. And so I'm pleased to share that all the bank loans that were coming due over the next, I think, couple of months up until the beginning of next year have been successfully refinanced by [ Lamira ]. With regard to [ Lamira ] '24 and '26 bonds, as all of you know, we have continued to lend our full support to [ Lamira ] and its refinancing efforts. Up until today, unfortunately, we have not been able to secure any lines to refinance these bonds. I think a lot of the banks are still watching the gradual improvement in [ Lamira ] traffic and financials. And also at the same time, the more recent developments around real estate in China and the broader concerns around commercial real estate globally, and also what impact higher interest rates will have on commercial real estate. All these different factors is weighing upon the market. And it has been -- it has proven a little bit more challenging to secure this. And -- so up until today, that is the progress. We continue to work on it and work closely with [ Lamira ] we continue to be optimistic that we'll be able to find a solution. But I did want to share with all of you the most recent update on this process. So those are the questions -- those are my responses on the bonds. There is one question from [ Abraham Iyer ], book value of [ Lamira ] at USD 1.2 billion, is there a potential write-down? Not at the moment, not that I'm aware of, but I think this is a question that's more appropriately addressed to Lamira Management. With banks supporting [ Lamira ], how is LPKR thinking about supporting the REIT moving forward? I've shared with you how Lippo Karawaci is supporting the REIT with regard to its refinancing efforts. Beyond the refinancing efforts, Lippo Karawaci, obviously, as a sponsor of the REIT continues to see a lot of growth opportunities for [ Lamira ], Indonesia in the medium term. So as soon as we're able to move beyond the short-term refinancing issues of the mirror. And also the market gains more clarity on the revival of its business post code. We're quite excited about all the different growth opportunities that [ Lamira ] will have in Indonesia and not only in the retail mall area, but also more broadly in the Indonesian commercial real estate opportunities beyond just retail malls. But I think all these things are probably better discussed once the overhang around the refinancing efforts and hopefully can be resolved. There's a question about the Siloam, given that Silo is a growth engine for LPKR, how does management think about acquiring a greater stake in Siloam. This is something that management continues to evaluate as -- some of you may know, over the last 2 years, we have consistently increased our ownership in Siloam. I think we've started off at about 50% or 50 -- just over 50%, 50.2% or so. Today, we're about 58%. And so I think our decision over the last 2 years to increase our stake in Siloam has been a good decision. At the moment, we continue to evaluate whether it makes sense for us to continue to increase our stake, and we'll continue to report and share with you should there be any movements in our ownership in Siloam. Yes, I think that's a good question on the VAT reduction. Two weeks ago, the government announced an incentive program where houses, landed houses that are below IDR 2 billion, will receive a 100% discount in VAT up until, I believe, in May of next year. And then following that, for a time period, it's going to reduce to about 50% discount on the VAT. I think it will certainly benefit from this VAT reduction. This is a similar program to what the government had announced in the middle of COVID. At that time, the threshold was at IDR 5 billion. The program that they announced last week was at IDR 2 billion. But yes, I think Lippo Karawaci will benefit from it because as you can see, the vast majority of our home sales, Atlanta home sales is below IDR 2 billion. So I think it sort of hits the sweet spot of where we are. Having said that, we are still waiting for the details on the regulation. And to the extent that this incentive is implemented in the same way that the previous incentive plan was implemented. I think the benefit will be rather limited, because it will only apply to homes that are handed over within this time period. So it doesn't apply to any newly launched homes or houses. So we'll see -- we'll study the details once the implementing regulations are out. But that's what I think will happen. Main reason for property sales, sequential decline in 3Q, I believe if you may be referring to revenues here. Daniel, would that be consistent?

Well, I think either from a revenue or marketing sales perspective, I think it's important to understand that, again, the launch timing and handover timing is going to be different from quarter to quarter. So you always see different movement from quarter-to-quarter. So I think that's probably the main answer for that. And the question is about the cash flow at the [ holdco ] level. We are currently sitting above IDR trillion, and we do -- based on our forecast, I don't think this will change significantly by the end of the year. So it will be above IDR 1 trillion.

Yes. And I'll just add to, Daniel, like I said, I think we are on track to deliver our full year marketing sales guidance. There has been a lot of variability from one quarter to another. But I think that's just the nature of the business and when we actually do launches causing sort of bumps throughout the year. But I don't see anything particularly significant or material there. What would be your following -- what would be your capital structure plans? I think that's what you mean it's very strong. EG turned to domestic bank loan or bond market rather than USD. Yes, I think we continue to be very practical and commercial about this. In the past, we've been heavily reliant on the bond market today or in the last couple of years, the domestic banking market has changed a lot. And as you've seen in the last 12 months, we've been able to capitalize on that and convert about half of our bonds -- what was previously our U.S. dollar bonds have been converted into IDR. Lower interest rate, no ForEx mismatch, no withholding tax, no hedging. So certainly, whenever there are opportunities to do that, we would love to do that. Having said that, at the moment, the market has been challenging for the reasons that I've shared in this call previously. But yes, I think all else equal, if we're able to be financed with all IDR-denominated debt that would be our preference. Would LPKR support an equity raise at Lamira? Yes, we would be open to that. As you've seen in the history of Lamira, we've continued to be supportive whenever there's an equity raise -- and so we don't see -- I don't see any reason why we wouldn't be going forward, especially where Lamira is trading at today. There's a question about Lamira's collateral package. I would, I think, talk to Lamira about this, I believe, they'd be able to show the info the on this. Why is there no refinancing plans on LPKR '25? As I've mentioned before, I think the market is, at the moment, pretty challenging. So the market is just not open for that. I think that's it. Share-based lending on Siloam, I don't understand what the question is. No, Siloam shares are pledged. Any margin call for currency hedge? No. We're in the money on our hedges. We're hedged all the way to 17,500. We're fully covered on all our USD bonds. I think you referred to some of the earlier slides in Daniel's presentation. How are domestic banks thinking about extending secured loans against real estate? I think that's case by case. It's a case by case on that. There are a couple of hands that are raised.

Yes, I think we can open for Robin Sutanto.

Let's take the 4 questions, Randi, on the -- raise hands and then maybe we can.

Can you hear me?

Yes, I can hear you.

Yes, thank you for the updates. Just a quick one for me. So Park Serpong was launched yesterday. Do we have the numbers yet in regards to the number of units offered, the number of units sold and the total number of proceeds from that first launch? And basically subsequent to that, is there a next phase plan for that? And when there's -- when the next phase happens, will it be a different ASPs? I'll perhaps stop here first.

Yes. Thank you, Robin. Yes, as Daniel has alluded to, we did do the launch of Park Serpong on Saturday and Sunday, so this past weekend. We are still consolidating the numbers. But generally, it was a successful launch, and we are pleased with the results. And in the next earnings call when we cover the fourth quarter results, we'll share a little bit more detail on the results of the launch. But just to give you a little bit of flavor, Park Serpong is located approximately 3, 4 kilometers south of Karawaci, along the main provincial road -- provincial Le Coq road. And it is right adjacent to a number of other very mature developments, including Garden Serpong, BSD Paramount, et cetera. And so our strategy really was to introduce to the market a price point that is generally not available and the other developers. Having said that, the unit sizes are smaller. And so from a unit economics point of view, it's reasonably attractive for Karawaci. And so I think that was the right strategy. I think we hit the right price points allowing us to gain the right momentum that we need as we open up this new 400-hectare development. And yes, I think in the coming quarters, we do have planned further launches at prices that will be gradually increasing over time. So the ASPs will continue to be higher and higher for the same products. And we'll also be launching new products that are larger and at higher price points as well. So generally, good progress there. But I think it's a little too early to say. I want to let the numbers settle down. As you know, when you have a big launch like that, you've got buyers on 0% down payment, things like that. So I want to see the numbers consolidate and to see what the real numbers are before sharing further information to all of you.

Can I follow up with that? Basically, for this first space, is there a maximum number of units that Lippo Karawaci is prepared to offer? I mean, I understand the numbers, month side is still progressing, but what about the supply side?

Well, the good thing is in a place like Serpong, which I would say that today, in the entire Indonesia, the most -- the hottest demand market is Serpong. And that's the demand pool feeling BSD, getting Serpong, Paramount and to some lesser extent, Alam Sutera and all these. This is all the Serpong market. So it's a very strong demand pool. The way I look at it is, as we're opening up this township, we need to have some critical mass of homes. And so we're looking at selling a couple of thousand homes in this first phase and then gradually we'll be lifting up the prices as time goes. So we'll share more info, Robin, once we have a little bit more clarity around the actual numbers and results of the launch.

Maybe next is [indiscernible] Vikash.

Randi, can you hear me?

Yes. Yes, please, Vikash.

John, Daniel, thanks for all the updates. A couple of questions from my side. One is you talked about the overall outlook slightly challenging. While at the same time, you are saying that you are confident of achieving the full-year marketing sales, which would imply about IDR 1.5 trillion of marketing sales in 4Q. So if you can walk us through what are the major pockets that you expect a contribution for the marketing sales? So that's one question. And the second question, John, is on refinancing. I appreciate what you've just mentioned about refinancing with bonds. But given that the Jan '25 will be within the 1 year of maturity in 2 months' time, this I'm sure there would be rating agencies looking for plan and potential actions in case that's not in place. So how are you looking to address that?

Yes. Like I said, Vikash, I'll answer your second question first and then your first question. We'd love to be able to refinance. I think the market is just not there yet at the moment. We continue to monitor the market. We continue to do what we can. I think the rating agencies will have to do what they have to do. We'll focus on hopefully getting something in place and we'll continue to keep you posted on any developments on that front. With regard to marketing sales, you're right, I think it's approximately IDR 1.5 trillion till the end of the year. The breakdown of that IDR 1.5 trillion will generally mirror the breakdown of our marketing sales over the last 3 quarters, where approximately 60%, 70% of that sales will be contributed by landed-housing products, approximately 20% by industrial land sales and then the remainder by various high-rise and commercial products. So no surprises on that front. Let's take the last question, Randi, from Jason.

Jason, please. Jason? Robin, do you have any more questions? No, I think that's all, John, for today. All the question has been answered. So I think do you have any maybe some closing remarks, John, before I close?

No. I think I appreciate everyone dialing in. I think all the main issues and questions have been asked. We'll continue to keep you all posted. And if you're in town, let us know, happy to take you around and also take a look at Park Serpong, I know there were a couple of questions around that on the chat box as well. Thank you very much. I wish you all a good day.

Thank you very much all, and this is the end of the session. Goodbye, everyone. Bye-bye.