PT Lippo Karawaci Tbk (LPKR) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Good morning, everyone. Please welcome, equity investors, board investors, regulators and credit rating agency to PT Lippo Karawaci Tbk One Quarter 2024 Earnings Call. Today's moderator, I'm Randi as the Head of IR. With me today, we have Mr. John Riady as the Group CEO. And we have now Mr. Ketut Budi Wijaya, Group Deputy CEO; and also Mr. Daniel Phua Group CFO. Today, we will present our first quarter 2024 results, followed by the question and answers. During presentations, you may drop your questions on the chat box. Without further ado, please Daniel, to continue with the presentations. Thank you.

Thank you, Randi. I will take you through our 1Q '24 financial results and operational results. Welcome, everybody. I'm very excited to be here again to be able to present to you our performances for the first half -- first quarter of the year. As you can see, the result has already been presented. We have had a very strong start to the year. So, I think it is a very good start. All in all, underlying NPAT improved by 133% to close at IDR 200 billion. This is a record for us, and it shows a consistent pattern of quarter-on-quarter improvement started from the 2Q last year. And from this, we also see that revenue grew by 21% to close at IDR 4.61 trillion. Underlying EBITDA, you will see me referring to this word underlying EBITDA quite a few times with these presentations. The key differences in the underlying EBITDA here is that it excludes the one-off write-down that was performed by Siloam of about IDR 309 billion. Again, I will cover that further. But I think in all operational results, it's important to refer to the underlying EBITDA, which basically excludes the effect of the one-off right now because they reflect operational results. Now, if we were to look at the underlying EBITDA, it grew 35% year-on-year to close at IDR 1.19 trillion. If we were to look at all the segments, you will notice that basically all the segments have performed well during the first quarter as well. Starting with real estate. The real estate revenue was IDR 1.3 trillion. I mean, this is a 50% year-on-year increases. And basically, with the EBITDA both 96% year-on-year improvement. This is anchored by a very strong marketing sales. We've had a strong launch. As you would note I mentioned before in regards to Park Serpong towards the end of 2023. That was supported by actually just recently as recent as last weekend, where we launched the second phase of Park Serpong, which again have record tender and was a very successful event as well. So real estate has had a strong start of the year. We believe that will continue to anchor our performance for the rest of the year as we continue to focus on the affordable housing office homebuyers. Health care, again, coming back as sustained is improvement. Post-COVID, you will see that the underlying EBITDA and underlying NPAT will look at 386 billion, respectively, a 14% and 17% improvement, respectively. So, this is basically in line with Siloam strategy to continue to enhance on its revenue intensity and to continue to expand bit, and you see that as supported by improved throughput as well. One of the background that I do have to mention, as I mentioned that Siloam do a one-off. Again, I need to stress this is noncash. This is related to historical assets that were pre-2019. I will cover this in a bit more detail when I go to the detailed health care slides. But there's a one-off write-down that took NPAT down to net negative as a whole. But if we would exclude the one-off write-down from the Siloam, in fact, the NPAT for the group as a whole would have been a positive IDR 130 Billion. Lifestyle because we have the form well. All in all, the revenue is at IDR 285 billion, but revenue from Mass at IDR 141 billion with revenue from hotel at IDR 106 billion. Footfall and traffic and occupancy have generally remained stable and show steady improvement along with hotels, occupancies and average room rate. Now, going to financials. If you want to look at the 1Q '23 to 1Q '24 reach, real estate has improved by some contributing 11% improvement in revenue, with health care contributing a 10% improvement. Now, the EBITDA margins, underlying EBITDA margin, you could like have improved as well, which means that on top of a kind of 10%, 11% improvement in revenue, you see that EBITDA actually improved by 22% and 13%, respectively, for real estate and for health care. Other segment lifestyle has remained relatively more flat along with obviously, whole core expenses to allow us to close at a revenue of IDR 4.6 trillion and EBITDA of1.187 trillion for 1Q of 2024. The improvement, and then you can see revenue. If you were to look at it from a figure perspective, showing an 18% CAGR from 1Q '22, up to 24%. Underlying EBITDA showing at 40% CAGR, GP at 18% and NPAT obviously, is a lot more significant as well. And I think this CAGR improvement is important because it shows a consistent trend in regard to year-on-year and quarter-on-quarter improvement in regard to the LPKF performances. Now, we want to break down the again, underlying EBITDA down to underlying NPAT. As I've highlighted earlier, IDR 200 billion of underlying NPAT this is a significant improvement of about over 100%, almost more than doubled our performances in 1Q 2023. Some of the nonoperational matters, I will highlight them. The first one is, obviously, there was a fair value adjustment, again, in lens investment properties, Cibubur junction had the BOT renewed, and the valuations was adjusted as a result. So, this is kind of a nonoperational matters. Along with, as I mentioned, the impairment of launches 2 assets, the PSAK adjustment and Forex obviously had a negative impact as well due to the adverse movement. Apologies, just been power outage in my area. I have to continue via my phone. Randi, can I ask you to share the deck? Keep going, next. All right. So as a whole, you will see that NPAT is at negative IDR 179 billion. If we did not have the adjustment from Siloam, that would have been IDR 130 billion, that is actually quite a strong NPAT result. So that again, affirms the positive performances from the group. Let me now go into the individual performances in a bit more detail. And next, please, Randi. So, if you were to look at -- since fourth quarter of last year, we have performed this breakdown to break down the Holdco performances as opposed to the real estate performance so that you can have a better way of gauging how the real estate is performing as compared to other businesses as well. And I think we are very happy to report, if you were to look at, for example, both the underlying and underlying EBITDA. Underlying EBITDA underlying NPAT, those have basically more than doubled for the real estate to close at the underlying EBITDA of IDR 390 billion and underlying NPAT of IDR 368 billion for the real estate. As you can see from this, this actually closed very track break closely to the hospitals performances as well, especially on the underlying NPAT level due to the fact that real estate obviously has a lot less depreciation from its investments compared to hospital Holdco, obviously remains stable. The Holdco expenses, as most of you would know basically consist mainly of the interest expenses and rental payment for Siloam's properties. And next, please, Randi. Due to the strong performances, we're happy to say that the cash flow has been very strong as well. As you can see, the operating cash flow currently sits at IDR 1 trillion compared to IDR 154 billion the year before. Investing cash flow, again, will be mainly coming out from Siloam's continued investments in its CapEx and in these hospitals. Financings, we were able to pay down the net -- of some of our syndicated loan as a result of the improved cash flow. Again, that is supported by the strong performances from the businesses. Liability management, I won't spend too much time in here. I mean, most of you already understand the fact that we had a liability management exercise last year. But I think what is important to remind again to the investors is that the principles of our bonds are fully hedged. And that was very important, I think, especially in these junctures whereby the idea is depreciating against the USD. I think it's important from our perspective that we do have that gap in regard to the hedging that we have got. Next, Randi. And keep moving, I think we cover the hedging. All right. Now, I want to cover some of the segments in a bit more details same-basement. The first is in regard to real estate. Real estate, coming back, the result is not reflected in the 1Q '24 results because we just had the recent launch last weekend. So, this will be in 2Q, but we did have a very successful launch of Park Serpong Phase 2. And in addition to that, as you can see in 1Q of '24, we basically sold 48 landed projects along with a few other mid-and high rises. Marketing sales performances in 1Q '24, we were able to achieve 1.5 trillion. This is basically 28% of our FY '24 sales target. And obviously, landed and affordable housing continue to be a main focus, the kind of projects that we were launching is 2024, you will see that continue to be the innovative XYZ series that we have mentioned previously. So those continue to anchor our performances for 1Q 2024, and you'll probably see a lot of that coming in for 2Q of 2024 as well. In regard to some of the key takeaways, we do believe that the -- especially the XYZ series, for example, would have a lot of -- there's been a lot of interest from the market. So, we intend to launch a similar projects in both our GMTD in the Makassar and also LC in Jakarta. This one, again, is the same. I wouldn't spend too much time. There's over 1,000 hectares of land bank. So, we do have another 25-plus years of productive land that we can. Next. In terms of the marketing sales volume, as I alluded to before, most of the portion is in the landed housing and the volume may start about 80% of the landed housing volume. The payment mode continue to be anchored by the mortgages. You will see that currently 78% of the payments through mortgages with residential homes dominating, as usual, making up over 73% of the products sold in 2024. So, here is an illustration of some of the projects that have been successfully handed over. The improved revenue and EBITDA obviously, also reflects the fact that properties have been handed over on a timely basis. Again, these are just some units for your reference. We'll move on. Lippo Cikarang launched the Lippo Cikarang Cosmopolis. As mentioned, some of the key units that is being launched in the Cosmopolis includes XYZ Livin, which have had a very successful launch in Park Serpong, and we continue to bring the same concept over to Lippo Cikarang. Park Serpong, as you go -- I've highlighted in previous quarters, had a very success turn up, and this is supported by the launch in the previous weekend, whereby we had a close to 81% take-up as well from the people who attended. The feedback that we have received have been positive. And I think you will see that the retail pricing has been kind of moving up as well as a result of improved interest from the public in regard to the Park Serpong, both in regards to the areas and also the sort of units that we are launching in Park Serpong. So some of this, I have covered previously. Probably we won't spend too much time on in regard to Park Serpong. All right. So XYZ series, as I mentioned, these are the innovative products that we are launching in the Park Serpong area. And I also want to explain about the Q series that we have been launched in the last weekend. The Q series, the key differences is that it is centered by a court yard, and we do believe that it brings more vibrancy and more light, and more sense of space to the houses that we're selling. Again, that the Q Series is another example of Lippo Cikarang continue to look for innovative products that is unique to the market. And again, similar to the XYZ series, we have seen a very strong response from the market as well. All right. Next, I want to move into health care. Healthcare's performances had continued its strong Q-on-Q year-on-year improvement as well. As you can see, revenue is booked at IDR 2.34 trillion, a 14.4% improvement compared to last year. Underlying EBITDA, again, I stress this is basically the operational EBITDA without including the one-off adjustment is IDR 706 billion. This is a 17.2% improvement upon last year. EBITDA margin has similarly improved from 29.5% in 1Q '23 to 30.2% in 1Q of '24. Our underlying net profit is a very strong IDR 334 billion. This is an almost 30% improvement compared to the year before, with NPAT margins that is strong at 14.3%. Again, as you can see, the CAGR growth is stable as well quarter-on-quarter. Revenue saw a 3.7% CAGR Q-on-Q with underlying EBITDA growing 7.1% quarter-on-quarter, and net profit growing 16% quarter-on-quarter. You will note that the 4Q '23 to 1Q '24 underlying EBITDA fell slightly. I think that is more due to a one-off insurance payment that we received in 4Q '23 of about IDR 33 billion. If you were to exclude that, you will see that, in fact, the underlying EBITDA and underlying NPAT for that math, I mean, both improved compared to the year before. Sorry. Randi? Okay. So next, I want to talk a bit more about the write-down that has been performed. So, some of you may recall, in 2019, Siloam started its first 5-year plan, which has cost around 5.0. As part of that, we review all the pipeline hospitals, basically, all the hospitals that were in various stages of being built and decided to stop a lot of them. There were about 21 Park hospitals. And I think back then, we actually stopped most of them. That is in line with management strategy to focus on consolidation instead of expansions. And as you can see, that strategy has been very effective, for Siloam, anchored by the performances that I've shown you earlier in regard to its performances in 2019 up to now. Now, Siloam 5.0 as the 5-year plan basically finishes in 2023. So, management has started planning for its next 5-year plan called the next-generation Siloam. There are various initiatives being discussed, for example, by focusing more on our different segment and archetype to look at, for example, growing adjacent businesses, including diagnostics, IT and so forth. One of the key decisions that management came to was that there was still a number of hospitals actually about 4 of them. From the pre-2019 lease that up till now have not been opened, and there's also no construction being made on these hospitals. Now, are there possibilities that these hospitals may be open in the medium to long-term? We think it's possible. And there's also the possibility that we may dispose of these properties as well. But management has decided to say, look, since up until now, these are pre-2019 properties, and there has been no activities done to them to date. It is important to be prudent and make a write-down down to its latest appraisal value. Which is why this reflects this 209 billion adjustment that management has decided to take. There were some questions previously on why did we decide to do this in the first quarter. I think it's because we did the review. We started reviewing the Siloam 5-year plan in the first quarter of 2024. And I think management has reached a decision that basically in the next 1 to 2 years, these hospitals will not be opened. And therefore, I think it's prudent to make the adjustment when we, I guess, have made that decision instead of waiting until the end of the year so as to avoid the prices by year-end. We do believe that the investors' trust in that respect is very important. Again, I need to stress, this has no cash implications. These are all related to expenditures that were made pre-2019 into various hospitals that were in various spaces on constructions. And it does not require any additional outlay. In fact, if we were to dispose of these hospitals at a later stage, there would likely be positive cash proceeds as a result. But as I mentioned, the management has decided to be prudent and take a write-down of these assets. Now beyond that, if I can come back to operational matters. I mean what are some of the key matters elements that are anchoring Siloam's performances. The first is obviously the industry-leading revenue intensities. Our revenue intensity measures through metrics such as the average revenue per occupied bids and average revenue per patient day, as you can see, is close to double what other hospitals are doing in Indonesia. And you will see that that has remained stable for 1Q '23 to 1Q '24 in regard to average revenue per occupied bid. It dropped slightly for average revenue per patient day, largely as a result of shift in mix in 1Q '23 versus 1Q '24, there were basically a bit more BBGS patients in comparison to 1Q '23. Again, some of this is as part of the course of business as the shift in payer mix from one quarter to the next. But I think if you were to look at it from a CAGR basis as a whole, the growth in the non-BBGS patients have been most -- has been higher compared to the growth in the BBGS patients. The operational results have been strong as well. As you can see in regard to the best metrics that we have in here, inpatient admissions grew by 16.2%. inpatient days grew by 15.9%. You see that the occupancy rate has improved as well by 8.6% to clot 70.8%. And the outpatient visits has similarly improved from by 13.8%. The quarter-on-quarter results, we have spent a lot of effort on managing margin as well. You will note that the Siloam's margin has steadily expanded since 2019. That's due to various initiatives that management has been taking. I mean, one of them is, for example, the review on the material costs in regard to the drugs and clinical supplies. Drugs and clinical supplies currently made up about 28.4% of revenue as opposed to 30.2% in 2022 and 35.1% in 2019. Operating expenses similarly have decreased. I mean, compared to 4Q '23. In fact, that has dropped from 31.9% of revenue down to 28% of revenue. Compared to 2019 of 36.1%, you can see that, that is a significant drop. This has allowed us to grow EBITDA margin from 18.4% in 2019 all the way up to 30%. In fact, we've been able to maintain EBITDA margins consistently for the last 3 quarters at above 30%, and we do believe that this should be the steady state moving forward. Net profit margins currently sits at 14.3%. Again, as I mentioned, the slight dip is due to the fact that there was a one-off insurance payment in 4Q of '23. Otherwise, you will see that net profit and correspondingly, the net profit margin has actually improved compared to before. Next. Payer group mix, I have alluded to this earlier on. 1Q '23 to 1Q '24, you do see a slight shift in BBGS, whereby BBGS actually went up from 17% to 18%. Again, these are seasonal in nature. Over the course of time, you will see that the growth is actually coming more from the non BBGS. I mentioned before that we have industry-leading revenue intensity. That is due to the focus on the high complexity cases. In this case, there is a strong focus on what we call CONGO, Cardiology, Oncology, Neurology, Gastro-enterology, and Orthopedics. Again, as you can see here, that the throughput and the average revenue from those disciplines have been steadily growing over time as well. Next. These are some of the improvement that Siloam has conducted in for example, the Carbon Europe, there have been new facilities being renovated. This is in line with Siloam's strategy to focus on more of the premium customers. Next. And you will see that similarly MRCCC have had the new lobby design. And the VIP room in MRCCC has been revamped as well. Some of the new projects that Siloam is currently working on, I'll be excited to share with you is, for example, we are building a new oncology center using the same MRCCC name that you see in our Semanggi hospitals. We do believe that MRCCC is not a location but a brand name and it stands for excellence in the oncology treatment and services. And MRCCC in the Siloam Semanggi has been doing very well. And we do want to replicate that by building a dedicated oncology center in the Lippo Village as well, and the Siloam want to be seen as the leader in being able to treat the increasing prevalence of oncology cases in Indonesia. Our Bali hospitals have all of you might know, have always been doing very well, especially post-COVID. We continue to invest in renovating our Bali hospitals. So, this is an example of the polyclinic executive, polyclinic that were developing in the Denpasar. The digital transformations have continued as well. We now see that over 25% of our outpatient bookings now comes through the digital channels. We do believe that this provides a seamless experience to our customers, and allowed easier access to various patient services and the functionality in the MySiloam app, if you haven't tried it, you really should because we have enabled health care services along with the deployment of AI to improve service delivery. All right. On to malls and hotels. Malls have had a stable quarter. If you look at more EBITDA, that's improved by 22% and with EBITDA drop, a slight drop of 10%. Occupancies and visitors have remained stable as well. We do see that our flagship malls continue to perform well. Managements continue to spend effort to revitalize some of the older stratas. And we do believe that some of the AI efforts that is currently ongoing in the malls such as Plaza Semanggi and the Gajah Mada that's recently been completed, would continue to see revenue and EBITDA growth along with the support in the occupancy and average rental rate. Next. Here are some of the activities. Obviously, we do believe that it's important to focus on events in order to draw crowds through our malls, and the planning of events have always been a key focus. And so these are some of the events that have been held during 1Q '24. Thanks. Hotels. If we will look at performances, hotels similarly have anchored themselves with a strong 8% improvement in revenue and 11% improvement in EBITDA as well. We do see gradually the tourist market continue to improve at bases, for example, Manado. Even last year, we do see tourist traffic being very low, and we do see that, that has gradually recovered this year as well. The leisure services, we've continued to optimize the target audiences to focus more on the bleachers markets. So, this has resulted in an improvement in the average room rate. As you can see, that's improved by 7% compared to 1Q '23. So, despite the fact that there's a slight negative in hotel occupancies, revenue and EBITDA is still up due to the overall improvement in room rates, which again, will be something that is sustainable compared to quarter-on-quarter performances, which again is largely seasonal. Here are some of the events that have been launched in regard to Ramadan and breaking for us. Next. So, looking forward. In regard to real estate, we continue to see positive headwind. We were very pleased with the launch of Park Serpong 2 last weekend and the record now that we had. And this has supported our belief that affordable housing continued to be a strong driver of growth in the real estate market and that the market is also looking for products that are different to what has been offered in the existing market. And I think we have been a leader in offering products such as XYZ series and now the Q Livin series. These products as always, we've always been the first in the market. And after we launched this sort of products, we find that there are similar products have been launched by our competitors to address a similar segment as well. So, we are very glad that we always are at the forefront and being able to anticipate the market's demand and adopt the solution accordingly to meet what is required. We have achieved 1.5 trillion marketing sales, and this is 28% of our guidance. And based on the launch that we've had recently as well, I think that we should fully expect to be able to meet the target that we have communicated to the market. Health care continued to be a leader in Indonesia. And I think the strategy from Siloam to focus on high complexity programs, including the focus on CONGO has really paid off. And the after the expansion has been planned with 5 hospitals and constructions in highly populated -- high-density area, and that will continue to anchor the growth of Siloam. Lifestyle, again, both for hotel and malls, we have seen a stable quarter-on-quarter and year-on-year improvements. And we do believe that domestic demand will continue to be strong, especially after the elections, and this would definitely be a positive for our lifestyle market. And this is all for me. Again, I apologize for the disruptions. I'll hand the time back to Randi for Q&A.

Yes. Thank you, Daniel, and good morning to all of you. While those of you who have questions can prepare, let me add a couple of remarks. Some of these remarks will also address some of the questions that's been addressed in the chat box. I'd like to make 4 comments, generally. The first is a general comment and one that echoes Daniel's remarks that overall, I am pleased with the continuing improvement in the operations across all of the different segments of our business. I think all the positive results that we're seeing operationally is a result of the strategies that we have consistently pursued over the last 2 to 3 years, whether it's in health care or also in real estate and across the other businesses. So, looking forward, I think we'll continue to do that. There were a number of questions on marketing sales. I think we stand by our full year marketing sales numbers, and we've seen generally a very strong first quarter performance as Daniel shared. The second comment I wanted to make was something more pace. A number of you asked about the impact of Bank Indonesia's decision to increase its benchmark interest rate by 25 basis points earlier this month. Generally, I see the 3 ways in which this will impact our business. The first is from a demand point of view. And generally, I think over time, higher interest rates will dampen demand and will slow down the general economy. This is, I think, a headwind for us, although I believe that this headwind is, by and large, manageable, but all else equal, it is a net negative for the demand environment. The second way, which interest rates affect our business and also still related to demand is on mortgage rates. Over time, we do expect that banks will at least to some extent, pass on the cost -- the increase in the cost of interest to the buyers and the mortgage buyers. At the moment, we haven't seen that yet. In our launch last Saturday, we saw banks continue to be pretty aggressive on their mortgage offerings, mortgage programs. And so, hopefully, the banks will continue to be constructive on this. But as the Bank of Indonesia has indicated, there is a risk or there is a possibility of further interest rate increases this year. And so, I do believe that as if and when that accumulates, this could have an increasingly material impact on the demand environment. The third impact of this on our business is on the interest cost side. As you know, our syndicated loan, our peer syndicated loan is a floating interest rate, pegged to a benchmark industry. So, there is a direct correlation from the interest rate increases to our interest expense. Another macro trend again, something that somebody asked, an anonymous participant asked is what impact will the government's increase of its value out of tax at PPM. The last 3 was 10%. This year, it increased to 11%. Next year in 2025, it will be increased further to 12%. Again, I think generally, this will dampen -- either gain demand or reduce our margins. A 1% increase in PPM is quite significant. So, we'll keep you posted on that. I think it's a pretty straightforward answer. Having said that, I think, generally, the demand we're seeing is quite structural. And we're seeing a lot of buyers who are first-time homebuyers, buyers who are buying with the intention to live in. And so, I think the demand is not so sensitive. But yes, it does impact the consumer psychology. The last one I'll make before I'll open it up to other questions is on our bonds. A number of you asked what plans we have for the upcoming 2025 Lippo Karawaci bonds. At the moment, we don't yet have concrete plans. It is something that we've been preparing and also thinking about at this moment, we've got nothing compared to update you yet, but we will do so by July of this year. So, we'll keep you all closed on that. And then finally, on LMIR's number you asked about LMIR's maturities this year in a couple of months. I can comment on this. I understand LMIR had a call, had an earnings call, I think, yesterday or earlier this week. So, questions with regard to LMIR should be addressed to AC and the management team there. The only thing I'll say, which I've continued to share in the previous earnings calls is that we will continue to be our supportive as we can, and as constructive as we can as we have been in the last 1 year and providing the assistance that LMIR requires. Thank you. I'll open it up to questions.

There's a question on Park Serpong, how many years can Park Serpong sustain? Probably between 10 to 15 years. So, there is a pretty long pipeline there, probably around 10 to 15 years. Note also that the prices of our launches for a similarly sized product we treat today and when we first launched in October of 2023, has increased already by about 15%. I don't believe that we're going to increase prices by 15% every 6 months. That's not sustainable. But I do expect that -- and it's always been part of our strategy to continue to increase prices. And so, based on some reasonable trend of increase, I think we probably have anywhere from 12 to 15 to 17 years of pipeline at Park Serpong. Any further retention write-downs at Siloam? No. The last time we did a similar spring cleaning was in 2019. Correct if I'm wrong, in 2019.

Yes, that's great.

When myself and the team was first appointed to Karawaci. And so, it's been 5 years since then, and that's what triggered a review earlier this year and resulting in the outcome that Daniel has shared. So no, I think this is very much a one-off at them. And a number of these items that we decided to write down today, we were aware of in 2019. But at that time, we thought that it was a liking to do not to take those right-offs yet, but not the fabrics have transpired, having done another review and knowing what we know today, we think that this is some conservative approach to managing our balance sheet. And so, we've decided to make this decision. But it is very much a one-off, and I don't expect any further write-downs of this nature. That's about it. There's one question about why operating margins decreased ahead of gross projects at GPM, what drove OpEx decreases. Again, I don't know what you're referring to. If you're referring to sort of the consolidated financials, generally, we focus a lot on cost. And so, whether it's on our real estate business, you would have seen that our costs to complete, our cost of construction as a percentage of revenues have decreased, and you'll see that cure as well in Siloam with our margins having expanded. And the same thing with our hotels business. So generally, that's been something that we've been working on very high over the last 12 months. And I think there's still room for more. So, that's something we continue to be focused on. Okay. Are there any further questions from the audience? Any further questions, please feel free to type in the Chat box. Daniel, any remarks on you?

I'm just taking through some of the recent questions that is asked. So, obviously, over 90% of our assets are still unencumbered from our perspective. As John has alluded to, I mean in regard to '25, I think there are various options being discussed. We are analyst optimistic that we would be able to refinance through the various channels that are available. There is no immediate plan for the bond tenders. Siloam, we've always said that it's an important and core assets for management. What is the view of sustainable debt. Well, over time, I think we are -- again, I don't think the strategy has changed. Over time, we do intend to reduce our debt level. The liability management exercise that was conducted last year, I think is an evidence of that, whereby we all in all that exposure is reduced by the overall treatment. And I think the strategy is to continue to reduce it based on a better strategy that we implemented, including the improvement in operational cash flow, I think that we certainly support that. Well, the hotel business as a whole is providing positive EBITDA. There's a question about whether we should dispose a hotel, but in this regard, I think it's important to recognize the fact that it is generating positive returns for the shareholders. In regard to what assets will we look at disposing and how we look at it, again, those are basically decisions that management continue to evaluate depending on, I guess, the market conditions. Banks so far, the refinancing advertised banks have generally been very supportive. From our discussions, we've done on liquidity, this generally is still strong within the Indonesian banks. There's some comment on Holdco balances as well. Yes, Holdco balances in fact, have increased, but those of you who are again working back when we calculated -- and I think a lot of the drivers in improving the Holdco cash balances is due to improvement from operationals. The marketing sales performances, as I mentioned before, the Park Serpong sales has been doing very well. And due to that, that has basically been the main driver in the improvement in the Holdco cash balances. Omar, you're asking about the 309 million impairment. I think Randi can give you the breakdown. The impairment appears in different parts of the financial statements. But I think Randi can give you a breakdown after this so that you can tie numbers in terms of where the 309 million write-down appears. Holdco cash flows, again, we have mentioned we started disclosing operational cash flow, but as always, you can work back with calculated. As some of you may have noted, once you calculated, Holdco cash flow has impact improved compared to 4Q '24. And I think that basically answers all the outstanding questions here that I see on this list here.

Okay. Thank you, Daniel, for the answers. So, everyone, thank you for attending our first quarter 2024 earnings call results for PT Lippo Karawaci Tbk. And see you again on the next call. Thank you very much, and bye-bye.

Thank you all.