PTC India Limited (PTC) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Ladies and gentlemen, good day, and welcome to the Q4 and FY 2024-'25 Post Earnings Call of PTC India Limited. [Operator Instructions] Please note that this conference is being recorded. I now hand the conference over to Dr. Manoj Kumar Jhawar, Chairman and Managing Director of PTC India Limited. Thank you, and over to you, sir.

Thank you. Good afternoon, everyone. I extend a warm welcome to all of you to our post earnings call following the announcement of our Q4 results and full year results for the year '24-'25. I'm joined today by core members of our management team, which includes Mr. Harish Saran, who is Director Marketing; then we have Mr. Pankaj Goel, who is ED and CFO; we have Mr. Rajiv Malhotra, who is ED and Chief Risk Officer. We also have with us Mr. Vikram Singh, who is ED Marketing; and Mr. H. Choudhary, who is Executive Vice President of Commercial Operations. We are also joined by Mr. Anand Kumar, who is looking after the Investor Relationships and strategic related affairs. So actually, this call gives us an opportunity to share the key insights into our company's performance and the long-term vision. We deeply value this engagement and with our stakeholders, we wish to take it forward. During the year '24-'25, we achieved a trading volume of 82.75 billion units, marking an 11% year-on-year growth, which is credible given that the power supply in the country has grown barely by around 5.21%. So trading has increased more in comparison to the power supply. Secondly, this was achieved while maintaining the trading margin of INR 3.37 per unit. So because of this, we were able to earn more from our trading operations business in comparison to previous year. The numbers will be shared by the finance. Notably, 51% of the trading volume came from exchange traded products, so which again confirms the broad trajectory wherein the market is slowly migrating towards the exchange of products from bilateral products. Improved margin realization has contributed to almost an 11% increase in the trading income. Nationally, electricity generation rose by 5.21% during the year to reach 1,829 million units. The renewable energy was a key driver, which grew about 13% over previous year and now accounts for nearly 14% of the total energy mix. This is very, very remarkable energy transition, which is taking place in the country. Within the renewable segment also, the solar energy contributed almost 56%, which was only 51% previous year. So this also indicates the clip at which -- the rate at which the solar energy installations are growing in the country. We anticipate that this share of solar energy and [ battery coupled ] supply will continue to grow and which is supported by declining cost of energy storage solution as well as the benign policy atmosphere. In alignment with this trend of shift to renewable energy, we have floated an invitation for expression of interest for 500 megawatts of renewable capacity. The response to this EOI has been encouraging, and our team is currently actively engaging with various project developers to finalize purchase and sale arrangements at competitive rates. In the cross-border markets, our operations continue across all the 3 grid-connected neighboring countries, which is Bhutan, Nepal and Bangladesh. Energy flows to Bangladesh remain stable under agreed contractual framework with a regular flow of payments also our accounts. Bhutan is experiencing rising year-round electricity demand, especially during the winter months when water availability declines. To address this, we have signed a fresh agreement for supply of 2,000 megawatt power -- export of power to Bhutan during winter season. This power shall be scheduled only as per the need indicated by them. Similarly, in Nepal also, we have commenced both import and export of electricity based on their supply-demand profiles. In Q4 '25, we successfully completed the divestment of our subsidiary, PTC Energy Limited, which has been held up since long, and we have been in the process of completing that transaction for almost 1.5 years. So on March 4, '25, PTC's stake in PEL was transferred to ONGC Green Limited for a total consideration of INR 1,175 crores. Our Board has declared a final dividend of INR 6.70 per share for the financial year, which brings the total dividend for the FY '24-'25 to INR 11.70 per share. This includes the interim dividend of INR 5 per share, which was declared previously. Looking ahead, we expect power demand to grow steadily at 6% to 8% annually, although short-term volatility may arise due to transient weather conditions. A favorable monsoon is expected to support this outlook. Government of India's ongoing emphasis on renewable energy, including draft REIA guidelines for inclusion of traders and new bidding schemes for battery energy storage systems and pump storage systems is expected to significantly shape the future supply landscape. The government of India has projected the need for 74 gigawatt of battery energy storage systems and pump storage projects to support the renewables integration into the grid. The guidelines for PSP-based power will further accelerate the adoption of storage in the energy basket. Regulatory bodies are also actively fostering the market reforms, including discussions on virtual power plants, standardization of power exchange products and also the futures market to enable a level playing field among exchanges, traders and OTC platforms. We are pleased to inform you that all the issues leading to qualification by the auditors in both the stand-alone and consolidated financial statements of the company have now been resolved. You may recall that the qualifications were related primarily to legacy matters in the PTC Financial Services Limited. We have put in adequate checks and balances in place to avoid recurrence of such issues. Additionally, the Board of company has approved business responsibility and sustainability reporting policies, which are now available on the company's website. I now invite our Executive Director and CFO, Mr. Pankaj Goel, to present the financial highlights for the quarter. Following his presentation, we will open the floor for question-and-answer session. Thank you once again for your continued trust and support. We appreciate your participation in today's call. Thank you.

Thank you, sir. Good evening to all. Now I will go through the financial performance of PTC India Limited for the quarter ended March '25 and year-ended March '25 on a stand-alone and consolidated basis. First, I will go through the stand-alone results of PTC India for the quarter March '25. Volume has increased by 5% to 19 billion unit from 18 billion unit. Volume has mainly increased due to our short-term trade and exchange. And the margin has also increased to INR 3.17 per unit in comparison to INR 2.94 per unit during the last quarter on the -- mainly on the exchange and long-term transactions. Total operational income has also -- total operational income has decreased by 22% to INR 151 crores from INR 193 crores. The operational income has -- although the trading margin has increased, but the total operational income has gone down primarily because of the reduction in the surcharge income. However, the surcharge income has increased by 50% during the last year. Profit before tax has increased by 439% to INR 608 crores from INR 113 crores. As you are all aware that there is an exceptional item in our results in this quarter because we have booked the profit of -- profit on PTC Energy disinvestment of around INR 521 crores during the quarter. So even if we take out this exceptional item of INR 521 crores, the profit before tax is INR 86 crores as against INR 113 crores during the last quarter. Profit after tax has increased by 529% to INR 521 crores from INR 83 crores. After taking out the PTC Energy disinvestment, our profit after tax has been INR 64 crores as against INR 83 crores during the last quarter. Total likewise, total comprehensive income has increased by 1,716% to INR 516 crores from INR 28 crores. This phenomenal increase is because of this, that there will be last quarter we have taken reduction in value of our fair value in Teesta by INR 55 crores and during the current quarter, only INR 6 crores taken as reduction only. So because of this comprehensive income has gone up substantially. The earnings per share for the quarter stood at INR 17.61 in comparison to INR 2.8 during the last quarter. If we take out the profit from PEL disinvestment, our EPS stand at INR 2.16 in comparison to INR 2.8 during the last quarter. Now I will go through the annual results for the stand-alone basis. The volume has increased by 11% to 82.8 billion unit from 74.8 billion units. Total operational income has increased by 17% to INR 718 crores from INR 616 crores. The total operational income has mainly increased because of the increase in our surcharge income and trading margin also and plus the -- as I've already explained, the profit on PEL disinvestment. Profit before tax has also increased by 118% to INR 1,056 crores from INR 484 crores. If we take out this profit on PEL disinvestment, so our profit before tax has increased by 10% to INR 535 crores as against INR 484 crores during the last year. Profit after tax has increased by 132% to INR 855 crores from INR 369 crores. If we take PEL disinvestment, our profit after tax has increased by 8% to INR 397 crores as against INR 369 crores. Total comprehensive income has increased by 245% to INR 850 crores from INR 247 crores. So with this I have already explained that this is because of the reduction in our fair value during the last year wherein we have taken a reduction of INR 122 crores in our fair valuation of Teesta Urja, so because of this comprehensive income has increased. Earnings per share for the year stood at INR 28.88 as compared to INR 12.47 in comparison to last year. If we take out PEL disinvestment, our EPS stand at INR 13.42 in comparison to INR 12.47 during the last year. Now I'll go through the quarterly consolidated results. Volume has increased by 5% to 19.1 billion unit from 18.1 billion units. Profit before tax has increased by 255% to INR 467 crores from INR 132 crores. If you take out the PEL disinvestment, so our profit before tax on a consolidated basis has increased by 23% to INR 161 crores from INR 132 crores. Profit after tax on a totality basis has increased by 308% to INR 372 crores from INR 91 crores. If you take out PEL disinvestment, our profit after tax has increased by 43% to INR 130 crores from INR 91 crores. Total other comprehensive income has increased by 900% to INR 366 crores from INR 37 crores, the reason of increase in comprehensive income, I have already explained due to reduction in the fair value during the last year. Our earnings per share for the quarter stood at INR 11.88 in comparison to INR 2.9 during the last quarter. Now I will go through the annual results on a consolidated basis. Volume has increased by 10% to 83.3 billion units from 75.4 billion units. Profit before tax has increased by 71% to INR 1,117 crores from INR 654 crores. If we take out the PEL disinvestment, it has increased by 24% to INR 811 crores from INR 654 crores. Profit after tax has increased by 83% to INR 976 crores from INR 533 crores. Profit after tax, excluding the PEL disinvestment has increased by 38% to INR 735 crores from INR 533 crores. Total other comprehensive income has increased by 137% to INR 969 crores from INR 410 crores. Earnings per share for the year stood at INR 30.4 in comparison to INR 16.11. If we take out the PEL disinvestment, our EPS stands at INR 2.24 in comparison to INR 16.11.

[Operator Instructions] We have one text question from Lipika Kundu. As per dividend policy, 50% of stand-alone EPS is to be distributed, which works out to be INR 14.42 per share. Why only INR 11.70 was declared? Please clarify.

The dividend policy also, I mean, clearly mentions an exception. We must understand that this year's exceptional profit was because of one exceptional item, which was like disinvestment of the PEL. Now definitely, more dividend can always be declared, but management believes that retaining this capital and investing it into the profitable ventures for future growth of the company is equally important. So currently, management after discussing and debating the issue proposed this dividend, which was accepted by the Board of Directors also.

We have one more text question from Rahul K, an individual investor. How do we calculate the trading margin? Also, what is the reason for reduction in core operating revenue, excluding surcharge income?

If we exclude the surcharge income, then our core margin has not gone down and our core operating income has also not gone down if you look at the results and the numbers which were shared by Pankaj currently. Now as to the methodology, calculation of the margin is a simple thing because it is always mentioned in the contract and it varies from contract to contract. So whenever we are entering into a contract, we based on the risk profile and the tenure and other considerations and the market situation decide as to what kind of margins we should be taking, and that is how it is decided. So the number which are finally reported into the accounts is the aggregation and amalgamation of all numbers put together.

[Operator Instructions] We have few text questions, I will read those. We have a question from Sachin Gamre from Iden Investment. What is the contribution of PFS in the total consolidated profit of the company?

I will ask Pankaj to respond to that.

Profit after tax from PFS for the quarter is INR 58 crores as against INR 13 crores during the last quarter. And on a yearly basis, the PFS contribution was INR 217 crores as comparison to INR 160 crores during the last year.

The second question is why PFS has not declared the dividend in spite of this being reported in exchange filing?

I think this question should be addressed to the PFS management himself, which is a listed entity. The board of directors of the PFS decided that it will be in the best interest of the company not to declare the dividend at this point of time.

The next question is where in the value chain PFS fits in the company's overall strategy.

When we started PFS the reason was that it will as a collaborating unit, let us say, because we were into the power trading business and we were seeing that the sector is [ capitally carved ]. So that was the idea at that point of time, people were not really willing and forthcoming to extend credit to long duration and long-gestation power sector projects. So there was a market and there was an opportunity. That was the idea of creation of the PFS at that point of time. Now the PFS has gone through ups and downs and that story is well known. At a later stage, what is to be done about the PFS and whether it continues to remain a good fit for our overall marketing strategy. These issues are the issues of strategy and policy. We keep on discussing these issues within the Board. But whenever we take any call, we shall be definitely informing the investing public and all our stakeholders.

We have a live question from Chanamallu Halagodi, an individual investor.

I'm holding 1100 shares in PTC India, sir. And I invested in this company only because the company will concentrate on core business. Many times, I ask the same question repeatedly. And you had given the answer about the divestment of PFS. You had given the answer that after the divestment of PTC India Energy Limited, we will take initiative of the divestment of the PTC India Financial Services. And now the divestment of PTC Energy Limited is completed, sir. And what initiative will start? I want the genuine answer for this because I'm the serious investor in PTC India sir.

Sir, number one, I really appreciate you being associated with us and you -- I mean, being a serious investor into this company. I expect that this relationship will continue and grow, number one. Number 2, regarding the divestment of PFS. Again, I'll have to say that this matter has to be considered by the Board considering all aspects. You must understand also that PEL disinvestment was comparatively simple procedure because no other regulator except the market regulator, which is SEBI was actually are the ROC. We had to, I mean, take into consideration as to whatever guidelines are there from these 2 institutions. But in case of PFS also, this is a nonbanking finance company. So there are many other guidelines which are also applicable and RBI approvals, et cetera, are also required. Whatever kind of decision is taken regarding investment, disinvestment, increasing the stakes, decreasing the stakes and so many, so on and so forth. So I think this is going to be a process in which multiple levels of consultations with so many stakeholders are required. So straightforward answer as to when it will be done, will it be done, not done. All those things are under consideration. Whenever we have something really to declare to the market, we shall be coming out. But yes, we will also look at whether it is a good strategic fit or PTC's core business or not. So those things are being considered by the Board. And hopefully, we will have more clarity as we go forward.

Sir, divestment of PFS is on your line of -- on your line of [ were not sir ].

Earlier, the PTC Board had expressed a desire that we should be divesting our stake in PFS. At a later stage, that decision was put on hold. Now again, this decision has to be considered by the PTC Board. This is what I can give as of now.

No, sir. Since 4, 5 quarters, you are answering the same, sir, when we will start to discuss about this sir.

Sir, 4, 5 quarters earlier also, I had said that at that point of time, PLE disinvestment was our prime goal. I think after a lot of efforts, we were successfully able to close that deal. And now again, we are discussing various strategic options. So I really cannot give you a straightforward yes or no in this forum at this point of time.

We'll take our next question from Suresh Kamath, an individual investor.

I just want to ask you one thing that after the sell-off to ONGC, your -- has the debt equity will be drastically improved? And second thing is -- second question is that -- having sold this unit, again, you are entering the same with Bhutan. So what is the strategy if you can explain this particular aspect?

Right, sir. There are 2 issues. Number one, regarding the debt-to-equity ratio. So let me assure you, practically, our company is already a debt-free company. So whatever little debt we take, it is in the due course of normal business, whenever we have made certain investment in the FDs and all of sudden some payments are required to be made. So we will draw overdraft facilities from the bank and they might be reported as loan. But other than that, there is no medium-term or long-term loan on the books of PTC. So our company is already debt-free company, and that answers your question regarding debt equity ratio. That is one thing. Second thing, I mean, you are asking me as to why we have divested and if we have divested our renewable assets, then why I mean, again, think about going into the same market. So I mean, look at this. This is how trade happens. This is how business is done. When you see a good value in a deal, you conclude it. When you see another good value in a deal which may create long-term good cash flows, again, we will consider. So if we are trying to look at some renewable assets, again, so it does not mean that I mean once we have sold a renewable asset, we will never acquire another renewable asset. We'll continue to do so. And again, after acquisition, if we see a good deal that it can be sold. So we will do that also. So that is part of the strategy. Having said that, Bhutan is a very, very stable and administratively, culturally very friendly geography to put some investments into it. And they have got a great potential in hydro assets. They are also looking at some investments in the solar assets. So we keep on discussing with them because we have an ongoing business relationship with them. So I hope that explains.

We'll take our next question from Krishna Kumar, retail investor.

You said that you are retaining some of the cash for future growth. What exactly are your plans for future growth? How much you will be investing into the Bhutan deal or other deals, which is -- are you going to create the new subsidiaries? Or what are the plans for that cash utilization?

Right now, I mean discussions are going on with many counterparties on many different initiatives. So definitely, I cannot give you as to how this capital allocation is going to look like. But yes, we are trying to do multiple things. And one of those things is acquisition of some renewable energy assets, either within the country or in some friendly geographies. But right now, unless and until we have concluded the deal, it will not be right for me to speak more on this at this point of time.

So will you be taking debt or it will be only within the cash because you will also need money for the working capital?

No, no. What -- I'm sorry, I could not follow you.

No, like will you be taking loans to invest into this because you will also need money for the working capital. So...

Yes, yes. Actually, you see there are 2 things. The investment size would decide many things. If we are able to, I mean, fund it from the internal resources, so if we are able to find a partner who is equally keen equity investor in those projects, then maybe we'll not need. If we need, then also we'll look into it. We are exploring the opportunities. And at this point of time, it is difficult to say how much will be going to be loan, how much will be going to be equity. But it will be a prudent call. Let me assure you that. We'll be very, very careful about the investments.

Okay. And one question about the consultancy. And earlier, you have been saying that consultancy will be a good part of business. You are planning to grow to INR 100 crores. So where are we on that objective?

There has been a little bit setback on the growth of the consultancy division. Let me be very honest. There have been 2 adverse developments. Number one, though, we have been trying to close the contracts with the [ ESL ] in which the payments are stuck up and we are in discussions with them as to how to realize whatever bills we have already raised. So because of that, we have scaled down that segment of the consultancy business. Secondly, because a lot of consultancy work was being funded directly or indirectly through U.S. aid. Now that funding has dried up because of that a lot many projects, people are looking to short close those projects. So because of that also, it has had some impact on the consultancy business. But at the same time, there are many new areas where we really can grow. One of them is maybe smart metering, EV. So basically, we are looking at the opportunities, the evolving landscape. And definitely, we'll try to grow this segment. Of course, our results this year have not been to our liking.

Okay. And finally, what is the status on the receivable from Bangladesh? I mean the business is as usual, we're getting...

Very, very comfortable, sir. Very, very comfortable. Earlier, we were a little bit worried, but now there is no reason to be worried. The receivable portion from Bangladesh is very, very comfortable, not more than 2 months outstanding. Earlier it was almost 6 months. Pankaj, can you give the numbers?

Yes. So the receivable from Bangladesh is presently only INR 577 crores.

We'll take our next question from Suyash Bhave from Wealth Guardian.

Sir, I wanted a performance update on HPX regarding volumes, revenues and profits for Q4 as well as FY '25 and additionally more from a strategic perspective we are a 5% plus holder, 22% holder in HPX. Are we looking at bringing in any strategic investment? Maybe reduce our stake below 5% so maybe we might be able to trade on HPX as well? How are we looking at it from that perspective?

You are right that we cannot trade on that exchange unless and until we have brought down our equity to the 5%. So basically, we have started discussions as to can there be a guided and gradual road map for reduction of our equity provided that we are allowed trading. So we have started discussions along those lines with regulators, I mean when we will divest would be a call to be taken considering the evolving market situation. But as of now, we are holding this equity and we wish that we be allowed trading. If need arises, we can give a gradual road map for reduction of our equity holding. But can there be a working arrangement in which the ownership and the trading are compartmentalized to the liking of the regulators. Can it be done is the discussion.

Okay, sir. And maybe the revenue and profit numbers for Q4 as well as full year.

Of HPX?

Yes, of HPX.

Please Pankaj.

The revenue number for the quarter for HPX is INR 7.69 crores vis-a-vis INR 8.99 crores during the quarter. It has gone down actually. And the profit after tax for the quarter -- current quarter is INR 2.28 crores in comparison to INR 5.01 crores during the last quarter. And on a yearly basis, the revenue from operation has come down from INR 36.46 crores to INR 31.44 crores. And the profit after tax has come down from INR 14.93 crores to INR 10.67 crores.

So what would be the reason for this drop.

Basically only [ 10 ] segment business is coming to the HPX. The collective segment, which is the DAM and the RTM and which is the dominant segment in power exchange. So those volumes are not coming either to HPX or to PXI because of the obvious reasons of network effect. So the collective segment volumes are the real key driver of the growth. Other than that, it is a very small market, a fringe market. So unless and until we trade on HPX and there is market coupling so that anyone can choose an exchange of his own choice. Unless these 2 things happen, the collective segment is difficult to grow because of that, you are seeing these numbers.

Okay, one more question. In the last call, you had said something about the government of India not allowing power traders into the long-term PPA contracts and there not being a domestic opportunity in the long term. So can you explain this a bit what as in how this policy has come about to be? And is there any chance of this getting reversed? What probably could be the considerations -- policy considerations for this to be the policy of the government of India? Some maybe insight on that?

As a trader, our perspective will be that traders should be allowed in all products, and there should not be any policy-related prohibition, but that is our view. What is the view of the government of India when they came out with the guidelines for long-term procurement of the power. So when they prescribe those standard bidding documents, the trader was specifically prohibited from bidding so whenever there is a discount which is following the [ SBD ] and seeking long-term sourcing of power, they have to utilize that SBD and in that SBD, the trader is not allowed, only generators are allowed to bid. So that is how the situation has come across that trader cannot participate in the future biddings for the long-term contracts. There is only one exception, and that exception is the RE projects. The RE project, the security one guidelines provide for INR 0.7 per unit trading margin to the intermediary procurer. But then again, that intermediary procurer is designated by the government and that designation has been given to only for government-owned CPSUs. So in effect, no private trader currently can bid for any long-term contract. That is the situation.

Understood sir. Are there any industry efforts as and if you would be aware of or maybe industry efforts regarding lobbying for this or is the industry taking any stance on this?

See, actually, long-term power market still is far from being a competition driven market. The original guidelines and the tariff policy, if you study them, it would say that gradually, we should move for procurement of power on Section 63, that is the competitive -- tariff-based competitive bidding basis. But still whatever thermal capacity is being added by at least CPSUs. So it is on the nomination basis under Section 62 so I think it is an interplay of many things, the capacity, the availability of capital, the overall dynamics of the power market, the goals of the government, what kind of capacity addition they want, what kind of assurances they want to give to the investors. I think it is a combination of so many things. But particularly speaking, I do not know of any traders, I mean body forcefully taking up this issue with the government in the industry meeting, et cetera, these points are raised. But I do not see a convergence of views.

We'll take our next live question from Vipul Kumar Shah from Sumangal Investments.

So my question is since majority of the trading is happening through exchanges. So why would a buyer come to us? They can trade through exchanges. So what is the rationale for a buyer to do trading through PTC? Would you please explain it?

There are 2 things which a trader provides. Number one, 24/7 operational support because if a trader wants to do the trading by himself and if he requires electricity to be traded during 24 hours a day. So either he would himself have to set up a trading desk and then do the trading by himself or he can avail the services of a trader like us who are running a 24/7 operations control room to assist the trading partners. That is one reason that people want to avoid that hassle and that expenditure. Second thing, we also looking to the credit profile of the buyer or the seller, the counterparty, we can provide them credit support also. In a manner of speaking, it would be called trade financing. So if some Discom wants to schedule the power and buy the power from the exchange, but currently facing some liquidity issues. So they will come to us. We'll fund that trade for a while at a later stage, we will recover that money from concerned counterparty. So that is the second service which we provide. Of course, we also assist with the market intelligence. So that is the third service which a trader can provide. Politically speaking, everything can be done by a buyer or a seller. But I think these are difficult skills and acquisition of these skills and continuously maintaining that capability is not easy.

So 5 years down the line, do you expect 80%, 90% of the volume to move -- to be routed to exchanges?

Absolutely not. Actually, you see the overall power market in the country, if we say it is 250,000 megawatt, almost 85% is the long-term contracts, which never go to any exchange or any intermediary whatsoever, except the previously allotted long-term contracts. So gradually, when they expire also, there will be direct bilateral contracts, and there will be no role for exchanges for management update. Unless and until some policy initiative comes like [ capacity ] market or some big policy announcement comes from the government, I don't see that long-term volume is going to be done through the exchanges. In any case, exchanges do not have a product for giving supply for more than 3 months currently. So anything above 3 months is not going to come through the exchanges. Now if you ask me from a buyer's perspective, even though his requirement will be long term, can I manage his operations by going for the shorter duration contracts of 3 months and continuously do it over a very, very long period of time. I think no one would like to take that kind of risk. So people who are having a long-term need for power would want to have a long-term source also. So both things will coexist. But yes, the short-term bilateral market is definitely migrating towards the exchanges. That is the truth.

We'll take our next question from Anuj Jaiswal from Tijori Finance.

Okay. So the question was regarding Bangladesh, which sir has already answered it. So can you reiterate the number that outstanding dues from Bangladesh?

INR 577 crores.

Okay. So as the dues are getting reduced from INR 559 crores, which was last year.

Yes. I'll tell you the last year number also. Last year, the Bangladesh outstanding was INR 700 crores. So from INR 700 crores, it has gone down to INR 577 crores. And the current situation is still better. We have further reduced the liabilities after 31st March.

So our business is in same intact with the Bangladesh...

Business has grown. The volume has grown.

We'll take our next question from Rahul K, an individual investor. Since there is no response, we'll take the next question from Vipul Kumar Shah from Sumangal Investments.

Bangladesh are covered under bilateral government agreement or how it works?

It is a commercial contract, but it is guaranteed by -- I mean guaranteed by sovereign guarantee of government of Bangladesh.

We have a few text questions. There's a question from Darshika Khemka from AV Fincorp. Could you give the number of net rebate for the quarter and the year?

Net rebate for the quarter is INR 20.46 crores and for the year, it is INR 120 crores.

Next question is from Dheeraj Kripalani from Avendus Spark. What are the margins for short-term trades, medium-term trades and long-term trades separately for the fourth quarter and full year FY '25?

Yes. For short-term trade, the margin per unit was INR 1.03 for the quarter. And for medium-term trade, it is INR 1.63. For long-term trade, it is INR 7.99 per unit.

Next question is from Paresh Shah, a shareholder. Can we plan for buyback of PTC India and we received money from Bangladesh?

I could not follow this Bangladesh connection.

There are 2 questions. First is can we plan for a buyback of PTC India?

Okay. So I think buyback of the shares is currently not tax friendly. So no one is now going for a buyback. So I hope that answers because there is a very, very unfriendly tax treatment of that transaction in the hands of the recipient, which is the shareholder. So buyback is definitely not planned as of now, no. What is your second question?

And the second question sir. Have we received the money from Bangladesh?

That has already been answered.

I'll take the next text question from Amit Kumar. The core biz continues to do well, but FY '25 financials were strongly supported by surcharge income. So what is the outlook for the surcharge income in FY '26? Is the FY '25 level of surcharge income sustainable in FY '26?

There would be a little bit volatility, a little bit cyclicity. But given the -- I mean, problems of the discount, many of them really find it hard to make payment when they really need the power. And when they need the power, I mean, there is always a cyclicity as to when they put in the money to buy more power to meet the growing demand during a particular season and when they will receive that money through their operations and realize that cash and that cash will accrue to them for making the payment of that power. So there is definitely a need to finance that particular portion of the short-term liquidity issues, and we are well poised to meet that demand. So overall speaking, I hope this to continue.

We'll take a live question from Rajiv Agrawal from Sterling Capital.

Sir, I want to understand why the revenue from operations have declined this quarter in stand-alone results.

Actually, this decline was because of reduction of surcharge income for the quarter. So Pankaj would have the number, but the operating margin, we have increased. But as I said, there would always be a cyclicity regarding the surcharge income. Sometimes depending on the liquidity of the counterparty discounts, they are making lump sum payments, which in current case, it had happened that Jammu and Kashmir government had made a payment of significant sum. So because of that, the surcharge income, which had accrued in the previous year, same quarter previous year did not materialize this quarter.

But the surcharge income -- but the the surcharge income is showing other operating revenue as per Note 6 of your stand-alone results.

The Chairman has replied regarding the other operating revenue. As your question is regarding, I suppose, it's for the top line actually. So first of all, the top line does not matter to us because what top line consists of let's say, we have told -- I'm giving you an example, let us say we have sold 100 million units and the price per unit is, let's say, INR 3 during the last year. But now suppose, for example, the price reduced to INR 2.5 during this year. And even though we have sold 100 units during both the years, but if there is a variation in sale and purchase price in the market, which do not affect us actually we have taken the power at INR 3. We will add our margin into it and then we will sell it to that INR 3.05 or something like this. So the talk of the revenue is basically related to sale and purchase price discovered in the market. So it does not affect our profit and loss account. But if you are saying so that, let's say our, the total revenue from operation has gone down. So it means the price of the electricity has gone down on an average basis during the last year.

So why has the price of electricity has gone down this quarter? I'm asking just to understand the operations of the company.

Yes, yes. So there is always a cyclicity and weather-affected phenomena. If you look at the weather, I mean, extreme heat or extreme cold those kind of events would lead to higher consumption of electricity, higher demand for electricity. And if the rains are equally spread out, there are no long duration heat wave days or there are no long duration cold wave days and rains are equally spread out, then definitely, it affects demand. So number one is the demand part of it, which is affected by the weather patterns as well as the growing nature of the economy, which leads to overall increase in the consumption of electricity. Second thing is the supply side. So from the supply side, what has been happening that the capacity addition in the renewable segment has been very, very fast. Because of that, I mean the demand has been benign and the supply side has been very good. So the demand supply equation equilibrium in the market plays out and that leads to pressure on the [ discount prices trade ] from the exchange. Long-term trades are not affected by them and which is almost 85% of the overall market. But the remaining trade, which are the short-term trade and the exchange-based trade, that effect is reflected.

And sir, what was the volume traded last quarter and this quarter? Can you share the figures?

Yes, yes. So this quarter, we have traded 19 billion unit. And during the last quarter, we have traded around 18 billion unit.

Okay. Okay. And this surcharge income, you show surcharge income whenever you realize entirely show it in other operating lines.

Yes. I'm sorry, actually, I misread your question. Pankaj will clarify.

We'll take the last 3 questions. There's a question from Suyash Bhave from Wealth Guardian. What are quarterly and annual numbers for net surcharge?

Yes. So the net surcharge for the quarter is INR 54 crores and for the year, it is INR 267 crores.

Next question is from Vipul Kumar Shah from Sumangal Investments. Since majority of trading is routed through exchanges, why buyers will route transaction through you? They can trade directly through exchanges.

We have already answered the question.

Next question is from Rahul K. What is the logic of reentering renewable space just after the PEL sale given valuations are elevated in this sector. Also with discoms seeing better financial health, will our working capital reduce?

Two things. Regarding the investment and the disinvestment, I think that question is already answered. And regarding the discoms overall health, it is a mixed bag. Some are improving, some are not.

That was the last question for today. I now hand the conference over to Dr. Manoj Kumar Jhawar for closing comments. Over to you, sir.

Thank you very much shareholders. Your questions were really, I mean, insightful, and I really appreciate your engagement with the company. I look forward that you remain with the company for a very long duration. I think by remaining invested in this company up till now, you must have been happy investor. Our overall returns have been in the range of 18% CAGR if you look at the growth in the share prices as well as the dividend, which we have been paying. So we hope to do well in coming years also, and we hope that you remain associated with us. Thank you so much.

Thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, on behalf of PTC India Limited, that concludes today's session. Thank you for your participation. You may now click on the exit meeting to disconnect. Thank you all.