R. STAHL AG ($RSL2)

Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. Welcome to the R. STAHL earnings call for the fiscal year 2025. The results will be presented by the CEO, Dr. Claus Bischoff; and the Chief Commercial Officer, Tobias Popp. [Operator Instructions]. Please also note that the earnings call will be recorded, and you will find the recording later today on R. STAHL's web page in the IR section and on Research Hub. We are covering R. STAHL and our supplier linked to our comprehensive research in the chat box as well in a few moments. Please also pay attention to the disclaimer on Page 2 of this presentation. Thanks again for joining, everybody, and I will now hand it over to Claus and Tobias.

Gentlemen, the floor is yours. Good morning also from our side, ladies and gentlemen, and a warm welcome to our 2025 earnings and investor call. My colleague, Tobias Popp, and myself will quickly walk you through our 2025 results, so that we have sufficient time to talk about our new strategy in our future program, [ Nexus ]. So starting with an overview of 2025. We had a very good first quarter. But then over the year, it becomes more challenging, mainly caused by economic and geopolitical uncertainties, but also from challenges we had internally. Overall, we saw that to a strong finish in the fourth quarter, we could limit our drop in sales and order intake roughly by 9% to 10%. The EBITDA, we could even help on last year level due to temporary positive one-timers, especially in our fourth quarter. The free cash flow, nevertheless, dropped down deeply and came to the breakeven point, mainly caused by an increase of working capital and we could not adjust it to a sales stop. Net profit, we came out around EUR 3 million. Now going more in the details of our financials. First, top line KPI. We see overall high in our sales in 2024, and our results 2025, around EUR 313 million. This is roughly except the average if we are looking on all these 4 years. On order intake, we see, unfortunately, now third tier in a row a decrease on order intake and also on order backlog and especially, we see the deep decrease 2024, where we eaten up our order backlog for the 2024 sales. As I mentioned already, key reasons for the decrease in top line are externally driven, but also we need to take in consideration that we significantly have to work on our market position and competitiveness because we have to take also in consideration that the future markets might be even more challenging than today. Switching over to bottom line KPI. We see that since 2023, we have a really solid EBITDA premier. We could continue this also in 2025. As I mentioned already, this is around EUR 34 million, which is equal roughly to 11% margin. Also, if we are looking on the net debt side, we see an increase to roughly the EUR 35 million. But if we take this in consideration also in relation to EBITDA, we are still on a solid level. Where we definitely have to work is on our free cash flow performance. If we ignore the one-timer of 2024, where we had positive effects in reducing our working capital out of the [ corner ] time. We see that overall for years, we are not significantly positively, and this, of course, is not acceptable if we are looking into a solid way on the future. So this will be a key action point we need to work on in the future. Key data of income statement. We see that we are coming really from a good material ratio level. But we see also that we could not compensate the drop in sales, 100%, so we ended up by EUR 110 million in cost of materials. We need to take in consideration that this includes onetime effects, but anyhow, in terms of flexibilization of our costs in the future, we need to work. On the personnel cost, we are traditional on a high level. We see here that even in 2025, we increased -- we need to take in consideration here that the increase is mainly driven by severance, costs caused by our personnel cutoffs. But anyhow, this will be a working field for the future. On the other operating expenses, we see we could work -- we ended up at EUR 63.7 million. Also here, we need to take in consideration, we had onetime expenses of EUR 3.6 million. So if we balance this, then we can say on the other operating expenses, we were able to flexibilize our costs. Overall, the EBIT then decreases reasonably to the point I mentioned before, to EUR 6.6 million. We worked then very intensively on our duties so that we ended up on EBT on the breakeven point. Taking in consideration that deal taxes helps us a bit here on this point. We ended up on a net profit on EUR 3 million. And I mentioned already that if we, let's say, eliminate all the onetimers before, you see that the EBITDA level is very constant at 11%, what is, from my perspective, really good news from this income statement. Moving now over to the cash flow, key data, we see that the net profit, as I mentioned, already came down to EUR 3 million. So we have been a decrease also in the cash flow to EUR 90 million, what is not only used primarily by the net profit but also by the related noncash items. The changes in working capital I pointed already out. This is not an adjustment mainly on the material side. And we see then that the operating activities due to invest. We keep on the same level so that all in all, the free cash flow ended up and breakeven. To compensate the missing free cash flow, we need to use our debt so that the net debt increased to roughly EUR 35 million. Having this said, I'd like to hand over to my colleague to Tobias, who will now guide you through the regional aspects of our top line.

Yes. Thank you, Claus. Talking about the regions. The sales decrease by an average 9.1% is in a nutshell mainly driven by significant less global investments over the year. When we look about the different regions in Germany, where we had a decline of 10.2%, that was, for instance, nearly no investment behavior in the chemical industry. When you look at the central region, which was declining by 6.3%, basically okay, but the major projects have been missing completely. When we look at Americas with minus 13.9%. That was mainly driven by the pressure on oil price over 2025, which has significantly slowed down the investments in oil and gas there. When we look at Asia Pacific, it's a slightly different situation there. It's a heterogeneous scenario, while India, for instance, I'm talking about a pharmaceutical behavior, was performing quite good. We had, for instance, in Korea, nearly no relevant export business in place. Talking about coming slightly over to the strategy, I would like first to discuss about the market potential in general. When we look at our scope of electrical explosion protection, we are facing that against the potential in the market of roughly USD 10 billion. This USD 10 billion contains the IC, the [ NEC ] and of course, the harsh portion we are facing. And of course, it's segmentated in Asia, Americas and Europe. And when we now scale it up in the direction of 2030, we foreseen there a development of EUR 13 million to EUR 15 million what lands in an average growth rate of 6% -- 6% to 9%, but we will be faced there as well with extended global competition. That means it will be much more defragmented as it is today. Nevertheless, we see us quite good position in that environment and look really forward to get more out of this potential. Talking about our outperforming market position, you see at the right bottom where STAHL is as of today. At the left, we positioned some of the competition there, what we see mainly positioned on the quadrant one. While you have on the X axis, the customization on the Y axis, the solution and technology capability, our journey will be on the way to get a bit of complexity out and in parallel, driving our technology and solution business forward, and that will give us a unique position at the end of the strategic journey.

As Tobias pointed out, we have a growing market in front of us, and this is really the good news. The key question is how we, as R. STAHL can participate from this market group. Taking in consideration that we have significant knowledge in explosion protection, we need to find a way how we cash this out in a broader way and to bring us in a position that we can participate on the global growth. Overall, this will end up in a position as a global leader for solutions in explosion protection and harsh environment. That's a huge step for us as R. STAHL and the key question is what do we need for this step. Of course, as Tobias as shown, there will be significant competition. Therefore, the key element for us is really to have a solid, outperforming market position. This market position must be fueled by a technology-driven portfolio. We need a structure that helps us as a midsized company to act really [indiscernible] and to handle this portfolio. At the end, we need capabilities and innovative work styles to shape it as a company. All what I had said need a solid fundament. It means before we are talking about our way into the future, we need to ensure that our foundation today is solid. And therefore, before we go into the future, we need to work on our financial stability and on our operative performance. All the actions and elements I pointed out will be framed until 2030 with our future program NEXUS. Taking in consideration the sophisticated elements in the broad context we are talking about, we decided not to have a big bank transformation. We will address this in a step-wise approach. And for Tobias and myself, it's important that is an inside-out activity so that this transformation is really driven by our employees. Of course, we will tie in certain experts to the porters. Let us dig together a bit deeper into future program NEXUS. As I pointed out already, we have a stepwise approach. We see 3 main phases. Phase #1 is foundation and stabilization, more or less setting the stage. The key phase is Phase 2 transformation in building. It will start already in 2026, but fully results will be available around 2027, '28. Here, we establish and enable our market position as a solution provider. The third phase will be then the further growth and scaling phase where we especially globally further grow and fully execute a scalable value stream. In this today's call, I only want to go shortly in Phase #1, which is already in execution. We work here together with our external partner, [ Alvares Marsal ], and our social partners to reduce the personnel costs, we saw already in this call that we have here a high level still. And thus, we need to structurally bring down. Second point is that we will streamline the organization and the structure of the company and establishing here in the company capabilities to act future-orientated and to handle this transformation from the company inside organization. All of this will be executed in a, let's say, unfriendly world outside. I pointed out already the challenges from the market. So we are quite [indiscernible] in our sales planning here to keep it stable. But definitely, this first phase will address our net debt ratio and EBITDA pre margin. Phase number two, transforming and building. As I mentioned, this is already the key element of the transformation and -- the North Star of transformation is our outperforming market positioning. This market positioning follows the mega trends that drive the market growth that Tobias pointed out. Overall, we see 4 megatrends. Megatrends #1 is that the needs and the requirements for safe and secure operation increase dramatically all over the world. Secondly, we see a high requirement for efficiency, the value of digital data and the cost pressures being also a lot of challenges to the OEMs and the operators of our industries. And here, we have a significant chance to grow. The third point is we see all over the world that the goodness to work is reducing. And especially if we talk about half environmental and unsecured environmental, this is even more dramatic. So we see in all our industry a strong move into automatic and autonomous operation, which is a third megatrend and is a megatrend that will fuel our market position. Last but not least, we have the need for resilience and sustainability. If we sum all these 4 megatrends, the question is how we can build our market position in this frame of mega trends and here, from my perspective, this is important that we start at the core of our capabilities. So you see here already on this slide, if we move forward in the outperforming market position. We start with our existing corporate tool. And we are already working intensively in streaming lining it and adding innovation on this portfolio. Two key areas I put here with us, these are new materials and functional integration of the components because if we can integrate the function, reduce interfaces, which are always challenges for quality, resilience and costs. Based on this extended core portfolio, we will then at extended automation portfolio. One key element in this sustained portfolio is the smart data. Smart data means we are getting more and more in the digital world. and the mass of data overwhelms our customers. We are at connecting area between, let's say, the operational product and the control level, I come to this later, which gives us really a pole position to enter the smart data functionality to address new products and digital features. Based on that, we will then move forward to connect different products to connect different functionalities to solutions. This will be for our customers and for the operators. There's a significant benefit because he can then come directly to us as a one-shop provider for solutions in harsh environment and explosion protection. This will be very important in the growing market because I mentioned with the megatrends, complexity of safety secure needs will increase. And for our customers and the operator, this area is not the key competence, but it's an area that is of high risk to his business. And therefore, we see here a major cornerstone for our growth that we can support end customers and operators here with a one-shop stop. The fourth step will be then the internal international scaling of our product, but also our competence. A significant point will hear be that we are working intensively on growing a global partnership network. I'll come to this later. And this partner network will help us to enter new markets and will help us also to extend our competencies and our portfolio. The fifth and last cornerstone in our new market position will be independent service company. Already today, we offer with our product service and support, but what we mean here is a complete different approach. It means really supporting the customer over the life cycle, it's a complete life cycle with capabilities and with a dedicated overall service from [indiscernible]. That means from planning over ordering over components to execution and also, let's say, maintaining and replacing. These are the 5 cornerstones of our new market position. And one key element of this new market position is that this high level give us a chance to multiple cashing out our expert knowledge. It is coming from the core portfolio, but now it's really, let's say, stretched over the entire life cycle through extended automation portfolio, a solution providing internationalization and service companies that is rounding up all over the life cycle. As you see here, this will be a market position that is very sophisticated, especially taking into consideration that we are acting here in a global content. This is a huge challenge for a company like us because we are a midsized company with, let's say, its limitations in, let's say, core structures and core capabilities. Therefore, one very important cornerstone for this success is that we established a structure that helps us with our, let's say, midsized structures to expand globally and to handle the sophisticated portfolio. The structure will be a decentralized network. In this decentralized network, the headquarter, which is here in the center, dark blue, is moving in a direction of the governance fund. It means here, we are giving the strategy guidance, and we are ensuring by governance set scaling of synergies and accidents are implemented and executed. Based on this frame, and acting fully free in this frame, we then establishing independent local to local hubs. Independent means they really handle their P&L responsibility independently, and they are independently also responsible for business execution as long as they stay in the governance frame. And then you see here, we have, let's say, modularization on the hubs. We have a full-blown organization with value stream with manufacturing with sales, we call local to local full-size hub. And we have also reduced variance we call [ Sales Hub ] where we most likely have on a P&L responsible sales execution. But also here, completely independent responsibility for execution and customer interfaces. As I mentioned already, we are going for a full-sized digital service company, and this decentralized structure gives us also the freedom that we can integrate a fully independent company in our ecosystem here by defined interfaces. Beyond these interfaces, the digital service company will have the freedom to act on own governance, on own structures, own processes and capabilities. So that 100% is ensured that we have a dedicated execution to service from our understanding is a key matter of success. Last but not least, this decentralized organization with us also enable to integrate global partners. As I pointed out, a key element of our new market position. And the key element is that we are here really global that we tie in all over the world, key competencies, key capabilities to fuel our market position. As you see here on the dark blue arrows, a decentralized organization like this needs a very strong communication backbone that enables to handle this globally as a midsized company. And here, we developed our already established digital processes like SAP like PLM to a full-sized digital operating model. So that worldwide, the scaling and the government is deployed not by people talking to each other. It will be employed by a PLM system, where the governance is 100% digital and intrinsic and in SAP, it ensures that worldwide cash to order execution is 100% in line. I hand now over to Tobias, who will give us more insight about this digital operating model.

Thank you, Claus. You already set the scene for the digital operating model. I would like to share some insights with you. What -- I would say we already achieved a quite good level of end-to-end digitalization in the main value stream. So the one task will be, of course, to bring that to the next level of operations by doing some well-selected extensions. So for instance, bringing SAP from [ R3 to S/4HANA ] and stuff like that, for instance, to bring the web shop with [indiscernible] to enrich the web shop with additional functionalities like having an online configurator as part of it, but there will be as well some more elements, some new elements in that landscape. So you see at the left, for instance, the AI-driven part, which is mainly foreseen in the first wave at the front end that will allow us to really [indiscernible] closer to the customer needs in matter of providing their much better performance, much better reaction times and much better prequalification on demands from the market. On the top, you see what Claus already mentioned, the PLM, that means the product life cycle management which is then the chance that we can really couple our basic R&D activities to things like local to local hubs that we mentioned before. So that will be really a huge enabler in order to support our internationalization. That will be our journey with the first wave. And of course, this is not the end. There will be much more of such models. There will be much more AI in the future but we will start with that scenario first. We heard a lot about the [ organizatorical ] things, and we heard a lot about the local to local hubs. You see here the 2 main ones, which will be enlarged accordingly. So first of all, at the left Americas. And secondly, at the right, this is then our Asian hub in India. And they will have all the functionalities needed in order to provide a proper backup for the, let's say, front end, mean sales, in order to fulfill the promises we make there and in order to provide a second level when it goes then deeper in technology as we heard before. In addition to those hubs, which will be enriched and empowered accordingly, we will build up as well a business service center and that business service center, which is foreseen in tune will provide us then different options in order to be quicker at the one or the other task we need to drive on our digital journey and on our performance journey. So it will definitely start with the digital side. That means software-based activities there in order to really speed up our AI activities and fulfill our application store with the necessary content. That's to say about the internationalization, the hub structure. So Claus, I would like to go back to you.

Thank you, Tobias. After the journey of Tobias around the digital operating model and the organization. I invite you to have a stop buy with us on, let's say, 3 highlights of the technology-driven portfolio. In last year's call, we introduced to you our automation portfolio, which is exactly the interface between control center, production operations and which handles the communication between the utility and analog. The company was really successful to implement, let's say, infrastructure on a communication side with our field switches and [indiscernible]. And exactly this product line brings us in a [indiscernible] position because as you see here, we are in the center of the communication. That means we are in the center of data. The challenge is only we need now application competence left or right, so that we can work with the data. And this is exactly the way we are now started to work on to extend our automation that with partners we extend our knowledge left and right with the application and competencies. And by doing so, we can then build on the base of communication new electric products that ensure safe operation, respective functions dedicated to hazard areas. As you see here, we are already in there, but we will extend this with our partners also to the field level and what is very important in the new world in a feedback level, that will, let's say, in a digital world, given status of the processes so that they can be optimized. The max level will be the smart operations in the processes. That means with this feedback loop, now our customers and the operators has a chance in real time, optimizing the process. You remember what I mentioned, mega trend of efficiency and effectivity, this is exactly the cornerstone, which stresses this needs because now we can even complex systems like ships like chemical facilities can be optimized overall with this feedback. The Asset Management brings this on the next level, because with knowing the data, smart data. That means not raw data, smart data means raw data that is connected with the knowledge of the application, give us a chance, especially with AI tools to learn. So if we see a certain behavior of the data, in the past, we can predict what will be the future and also ensure that maintenance and diagnostics helps our customers. There will be a significant benefit to reduce downtimes and very important to avoid risks that might cause it damage. At the highest level, we talk about [ AutomaSolutions ]. That means execution operation, all autonomous without human beings, and this will be a very important stage that sums up all and this comes also along with the functional integration. Let me show you one example for this solution integration. The next generation we are working on is a control cube. Control [ group ] is, let's say, extension of our existing UPS that we have in our portfolio that we also deliver to offer applications where you integrate, you can say, all control, all key components that you can buy [indiscernible]. But now we are adding in all this world, you see it on the left side, the new features of automization and extended uses of smart data. What's important is all these controls will be implemented in critical and half environmental. So there will be also the question, how can we ensure a continuous operation even if we have uncertainties in power supply. And therefore, we are working with partners on new better technologies, resilient per air and sustainable battery technologies. And we will integrate also here infrastructure and products from our partner. So that is really then for the application you see in the top one shop stop. One last comment, the harsh environment, we see a huge potential in critical infrastructure. You all see from news that with a crisis from Iran, the critical infrastructure becomes more and more focused and this will be a significant good field for us. To make this happen, and this is something I really like to point out this passion in this call. We need to have in mind we need smart manufacturing. And having smart manufacturing, smart value is on the same importance level as a competence on the product side to bring it to a market success. Last cornerstone, only short, the service company. Here, I'm happy to share with you, we are working already very intensively on setting up this new company, and we are bringing here together best of 3 words. Number one, we are bringing in knowledge and experts from R. STAHL also including the reputation of the brand. Second, we are working here really on a complete new company with a dedicated service structure. And third, I'm happy that we are working with a start-up company out of [indiscernible] that has a lot of knowledge of digitalization and scaling dedicated service in industry. I'm absolutely convinced that this will be really a big step forward for the company. And what's also important, out of this service providing, we will learn a lot about environmental and the use cases of the end user. And this will also then fuel again our product components because -- as I mentioned, we learned about application about environmental and can fuel our product. This would be for today an overview about, let's say, Phase 2. Phase 3 will start in 2028. This will be the further growth in scaling. Very important is here that we expand the footprint, especially in Asia and America. And increase our market penetration. Key element for this is that we work on a fully automated value stream based on the digital operating model, but also, let's say, with a higher automation degree on the manufacturing. The chance we are always looking on is inorganic growth. It's here, let's say, a [indiscernible] 2030, might become also earlier. Let's see what opportunities out there. Overall, the first -- the third step will lead us in to the level I announced, we assume that we can come here in the level of EUR 500 million above and honestly saying, this is also my perspective, we will need this size so that we can work really on a proper global level. With having this said, I'd like to come back at the end of today's presentation, again from 2030 to the outlook of 2026. Talking back in the coordinating system of NEXUS 2026 is a time of stabilization and foundation. Since you see also on the guidance for 2026, so we are quite conservative on the sales forecast. We see around EUR 285 million to EUR 300 million, also taking into consideration here the challenging geopolitical situation out there. What I mentioned already, EBITDA pre, but even more the free cash flow will be something we have targeted, and we are working on. The key point is, as I mentioned, this will be something we need to work on also with the social partners. So this is nothing where we expect that we have a big impact already in solutions in 2026, but we will see the impact more upcoming in 2027. So let me summarize today's call. We started with an overview about our financial performance. We then guided you through our future program NEXUS that and Tobias and myself are absolutely sure will bring us on the next level, especially because it's a program we set up to be executed from us to us. And hopefully, we could also share with you and bring you in the picture today that is a program that will address all elements that's needed for success, including the outperforming marketing position, technology-driven portfolio organization, decentralized network this digital operating model and key competencies, including also a full-blown service company that ensures that we can participate the market growth that is in front of us. But I also like to say all this content we shared is nothing than an investor call presentation. If not, we succeed that the key shareholders of the company, the Board of Directors, we as Managing Board, the leadership team, employees and our key partners work together, stronger and more successful than our competitors. Because this working together, staying together and let's say, executing together with and these capabilities is in Tobias and my picture, the only way how we can ensure that all the slides that had been shown today could be brought to life. I'm more than happy that we can continue our conversation that started I came out or Tobias and I came out on directors, meeting Board of Director meetings this week and also a good conversation with share stakeholders last week. They were very promising. And I'm looking forward together with Tobias to continue this journey. And now I stop talking and hand over to the Q&A session.

[indiscernible] back, but especially for the look forward that is supplied as within the insights you shared. We do have a lot of questions, so I will jump right into it. The first question is regarding the international expansion. And the question is regarding the past and the future because it says that International expansion is such as nothing new as a topic for you. You've mentioned that previously in the previous years. What things have changed now that makes it different from the growth that you had supposedly envisioned in the past in the internationalization versus the growth that you can show now? And what structural changes are in place that ensure that the execution will be sustainable going forward? You've touched on that partially during your presentation, but maybe you can wrap it up in a few sentences.

A really good one. Let me start with the people and the first thing that Tobias and I changed that we brought international colleagues on the first leadership there. So that we really can ensure that thinking and acting in this company begins to be international. This is the first big change. The second point is that with the new structure and the new government, we really ensure that responsibility is on the shareholders on the local organizations, yes. In my opinion, and this is a question in all the industry, we need to learn and let's say, to accept that the world is not longer following German rules of following, let's say, German perspective. We need to be more humble also as a company here and [ relay ] on our international colleagues, support our international colleagues that we really come to a local to local. This is, in my opinion, really important cornerstone is local import for responsibility, but also execution. And last point, we will establish a global partnership network that ensures that we are connected globally and smart network is on the competent side, but also on the execution.

Thank you very much. A big almost pivotal point of your strategy going forward are partners that you are looking for or maybe already have some of them secured. The question is regarding, can you give a few examples for a potential partner that you are looking for or maybe already have on your radar screen? And are you currently working with partners in certain areas? And what are your experiences with those partners? And the other question, which kind of ties in with that, what -- describe what kind of partners you're looking for on a global scale?

Let me point out 2 examples for a partnership. We are working on the service side, with a startup company coming out of the ecosystem of [indiscernible], it's called my technical service. This is a very young company that is focusing on service, dedicated 100% to industrial applications. And what I feel very important is that we succeeded to connect this company via this network concept with key experts for a long time as the key experts of the company. So we could, as I mentioned, bring here together, let's say, the 2 good things of different worlds. This is one good example. Second good example is a company [ high tech ]. [ Hi-tech ] is a company, solution provider, more focused on automation on a fabric automation perspective. But they have really good ideas for retrofitting established processes and facilities. And our teams are working in a moment together on a solution to transfer with competence or to combine better saying competencies with the competencies of R. STAHL in explosive protection so that we can support, especially in Europe, our customers with a retrofit of analog facilities into the digital world. I'm happy that we can also, let's say, smaller at this point of time that we go for having the solution to be shown together on the SPS this year in [indiscernible].

Thank you. Let me continue with NEXUS. And you've elaborated on that in quite some depth looking at the EUR 500 million that you might potentially have in revenues in 2030. There were a lot of initiatives that you were talking about things that you need to change within your organization and new things that you have to form. Do you think that you might need additional funding for that? And the question reads, do you need fresh money for the NEXUS transformation? And also in that same context, maybe you could give us an overview of what measures you've already implemented so far as part of the NEXUS program.

That was quite a broad question, complex. Yes, let me start with your last part first. I'm happy that we are already on a good execution status in the foundation and stabilization perspective. We're working here with the partner [ IRS Marsal ] and the [ social ] partners. We shared today this week with the Board of Directors that we are now through, let's say, with the concept of a streamlined structure that will make us more agile that make us faster. And we will be happy that we can implement this fully within this year. Secondly, I can say that we implemented, especially here in the company, 2 key elements, we call business and governance board. These are, let's say, market places where we insured past and cross-functional global decisions. You can just make your perspective Tobias and myself once a week, we are sitting or 3 hours in a meeting, and we are there just to make decisions or to listen to escalations. So that we, let's say, ensure that globally, decisions are made fast and diseases are made fast in a way that we do in sophisticated decisions, connecting all perspectives of the company. The last example is, I point this already out. We have introduced global leaders with certain key positions. For example, the global response portfolio is already, let's say, a non-German, [ no reason ] colleague, from the market side, we have for market management, the global leader, it's an Indian person. And the last point, for example, global commodity management for mechanics, global, the full global responsibility already enhanced to the [indiscernible] and it shows also, let's say, that we significantly make steps forward in the international. To the point of investment, of course, you can imagine with the point I made in building up a fully digital operating model, bringing our portfolio on the next level to be really technology-driven, be 100% automatic and autonomous ready. This will be a significant step that, of course, will especially also on the manufacturing side will meet investments. It's too early to talk about because it's important that we have a clear picture what we are talking about in terms of volume, but also on timing. But this will be a next step that we need to finalize around, let's say, today this year annual meeting.

Thank you for that. Looking at the market overall and your key asset to customers, the question is regarding customer loyalty and steps that you have undertaken to secure and expand on that. And it reads unfavorable market conditions are only one side of the coin. What specific steps has management taken to strengthen customer focus and customer loyalty, thereby laying the groundwork for future profitable growth?

Yes. Thank you for that question. I can -- we already raised it up mentioning the so-called business Board because the business Board will be then, let's say, the center where we bring the business means the customer in the company. So that will have, of course, 2 directions: the outside in, which is then, let's say, what the market needs from the company. And the inside out is then things like technology push and so on. That means what is where we can differentiate what is the things we would like to talk with the markets about? And this business board will be then the point where we bring the business together with the company in a structured, organized way and that will help a lot in order to bring as well markets in the company, which are not seen on the surface right now.

I have a follow-up question regarding the capital raise in relation with the NEXUS growth initiative. It focuses on leasing obligations and cash flow. It says leasing obligations have increased by roughly 22%, while the cash flow has dropped from EUR 50 million to roughly breakeven. What consequences does the company need to draw from this? And what is your view on the long-standing demand from external shareholders that R. STAHL must strengthen its equity base?

As I pointed out when we talked about the cash flow, and it's not only the cash flow, it's the entire bottom line, we need to adjust structures that we are better in working on drops or peaks in the market scenario because we all learned from the past that, let's say, the uncertainty and the instability in the market is the new normal. And what you can see in our 2025 results, there was a lot the company did. It was really good performance in adjusting, but the structures of the company were not allowing the employees to do the work we need to flexibilize in the extension and in the time that we needed to bring the cost down. And this is definitely something we need to work on. I mentioned already, with [ IRS Marsal ], we made significant work to streamline the organization, to streamline also the decision processes so that we, first of all, become more agility. So the capability to [indiscernible]. Any things that will be in discussion also with the social partners that we find a way that we can also more flexibilize our costs.

Okay. Another follow-up question to the rights. Potential rights issue would be looking at sales beyond EUR 500 million or at EUR 500 million in 2030 and talking about inorganic growth on the one hand and lowering net debt, on the other hand, that seems to be slightly contradicting on the one hand, dishing cash out to acquire something externally and on the other hand, having net debt being lowered. Do you think that you can convince the main shareholder to accept a reduction in the shareholding, which probably means also a dilution if you do a rights issue?

Let me phrase my answer in that way. The first thing in today's call is only the starting point. We need to work intensively and this is, first of all, the job of Tobias and myself, but then also more as all the other stakeholders that we let's say, aligned together on this NEXUS program, so that we all have a common picture, what is it? And we have a buy-in that this is the right way for A. And this is in place, then the next step is how we bring it on the road. And these are, let's say, all the questions that you wrote in after that is then falling in place. That is in the question, how do we finance it? And how can we align with shareholders? Let's say, on the same page in terms of content, but also on the same page on the port.

Thank you. Talking about one-offs in 2025, you mentioned, if I recall correctly, EUR 5 million for severance and million other operating expenses. Can you be a little bit more specific as to how these are composed? What part goes in there?

There's no good English transformation for this word. This is an employee capital program that was decided and executed in 2025. This was addressing roughly 80 people, and we have costs in the onetime for, let's say, transfer [indiscernible] itself, but also for the several let's say, one example.

Thank you. Talking about 2030 and NEXUS and EUR 500 million in revenues. Do you already have an idea of what your margin expectation on the EBITDA level would be EBITDA pre for 2030?

Let me talk about, let's say, the EBITDA level and margin level, let's say, a bit easier, let's say, also recalibrate this with the entire, let's say, point I think on 2030, when we have the portfolio in place when we have the new organization in place, and we have been really a fully digital operating model our target must be clear to come to a double-digit margin based on EBITDA.

Thank you. Let's stay with EBITDA for a second and look at the EBITDA outlook. Which cost category or cost categories do you see as having the greatest potential for savings? And how do you expect personnel costs to develop now that you have a reduced head count and without onetime expenses in 2026 such as [indiscernible] payments?

When we talk about, let's say, the financial figures, we saw that still our biggest portion is personnel costs. And this is something we need to work structural-wise on this. We placed already last year cutoff program, and we are now at a point where you where we need to work on this on a structural means it's not a question of, let's say, pure cutoff. Head count is something where we need to streamline the structure of the company to improve our operated performance, to use digital tools. And one thing that we also need to use more it is a global footprint. And Tobias [indiscernible] internationalization landscape, you saw already, we are working now on [ Best-Cost Country ] locations. We have started to build a new factory in India. As I mentioned, we are moving over the global responsibility for commodity buying mechanicals into the India area, and we are working to build a service center internal service center, so for administrative services, Indonesia. Now this is our approach where we work in the most important point that is, let's say, reducing the personnel costs, but allow me here also to add -- and to make clear, if Tobias and I, we are talking about reducing the personnel costs, it's not a matter of exclusively laying off people. This aspect of personnel costs is quite a soft one. And the situation we are in Germany, we need to work on the entire aspects. That means we need to work on a flexibilization of the cost that we are becoming here better and one point is also on flexibilization of payments so that if things are challenging, we can also participate in, let's say, reducing salary level. On the other side, if things are going good, of course, we can also ensure that employees participate in the probable. And this is something overall, where I can say we are in good discussions with the old partners, but still they are ongoing, so we cannot share more on today's call.

Let's stay with that topic just a little more. You already talked about the tariff partner shaft. And the question is reading how did employees react to the companies withdraw from the investment of the tarriff partner shaft?

Change process. We do a lot of communications these days. We try to bring a lot of people in the strategy framework, what we explained before in order to explain why we are doing what and that turns off more and more that we get multiplicators in the team as well.

I don't even know if you separate this out, but one question is regarding the harsh environment market segment, and it reads what potential in terms of revenues and earnings do you see in the harsh environment market segment?

The magic thing is to keep focused. So we did a lot of pilots in the last couple of months. We presented the one or the other in that format. For instance, the UPS we did, for instance, the nuclear power plant we did and those things will pay significantly in that future basket. But as said, it's -- we need to keep focused because we cannot be everything for everybody because there is a huge commodity market in the harsh environment but there is as well a nice niche for us where we can do a lot of business with. If it's things like those ones or others talking about offshore wind parks and stuff like that, there's a lot of -- there's a lot of nice things where the capability of STAHL can provide an added value to.

Looking at NEXUS in one of your slides, you actually showed the market growth on the one hand, but you said that competition within that market is most likely going to increase. And the viewer is asking what will you do to differentiate R. STAHL in the market to guarantee increased profitability and growth in a market that is increasingly competitive. You've addressed that during your presentation, but maybe in a few sentences as a wrap-up for that question.

I'd like to pick up also what Tobias said. I think the most important thing is that we develop outperforming market position. But we developed this coming from our core competence and core capability that we are not, let's say, screwup because there might be significant potentials outside, but we need step-by-step working along our key competencies and core capabilities. This is the first thing. Second thing is we really need to be open-minded for new technology. I'd like to say, was the technology we today not even know the self problems, we think they are unfavorable today. And this is really something that is a [indiscernible] that the, especially for R. STAHL, but also from my understanding in the global German society that we are more positive and more risk open to use new technology to be open, maybe one or the other time it will fail, but the end, I'm absolutely convinced that the sum will make us successful. And the third point is that we are open for partnerships because I'm absolutely convinced that this one shop stop solution that we are one partner for our customers, but also for the operators, will be a major hereto of success. And therefore, we need to be the one with strongest global network, and this would be the third point I like to highlight here.

Thank you. Let's look at 2026, 2027. The market environment remains challenging -- do you have any additional cost reduction measures planned over the next 2 years to, on the one hand, secure profitability and stabilize the results?

First phase is mostly dedicated to, let's say, manage costs and to set a stable foundation. So answer is yes. This is the entire first phase. And as we've shown, the elemental phase will be highlights in 2026, we will see the effect fully in 2027. This will be a starting book. But looking forward, I think, and we had a good conversation about this also in the Board of Directors is that we need in this company a culture in mindset, let's say, being cost effective with a continuous way of working to daily business is always to challenge ourselves. Are we cost effective? What can we do? And I'd like to share with you, I had really good meetings even when I was here at lunch in the casino that conversation started with some of the employees were just asked, "Hey, guys, do you have ideas how you could improve your cost efficiency?" And I thought now they stopped talking, but the opposite also was the case. We started one conversation and ended up that we were sitting together and I got 2 word papers full written with ideas of these colleagues. And I was deeply impressed that the company has such broad ideas and it's up now to us within NEXUS to bring it on the road. So again, to sum up, managing the cost will be focused on Phase 1 and then continue in our daily work.

Thank you so much, which brings me to the last question for today. And that is, once again, circling around the capital structure of R. STAHL. It reads, you mentioned that you were in good or in good talks with the main shareholders. Will the shareholders support R. STAHL financing future growth? How much invest is necessary to achieve sales of EUR 500 million in 2030, you think.

As I mentioned, this is a good and right question, there will also be the right time to answer this. To answer the numbers what [ invest are ] needed, today is not the right time. But I could say we are at the starting point to discuss with already established shareholders and investors but we are also in a broad conversation with new kids on the block, so saying. We are still in the initial phase but what I'm really happy is that, let's say, the genes and the main ideas both the program ex that I shared with you today where on [indiscernible], we are falling on a fruitful base. So I see a good potential, I'm quite optimistic that we will find partners also on the investor side to make it happen. And as one of the question are already pointed out, it will be also needed. So this is definitely -- if you see our cash flow situation, it's quite clear, and it's not a silicated answer, but we cannot, let's say, fuel invest that we need out of our operating performance, investors from outside of the company. We published on a new one will be needed, and it's a need on a significant level. This is absolutely clear that there's nothing on that.

Thank you. Thank you, Claus. Thank you, Tobias. We are out of questions. If you have any closing remarks from your end before I do my closing remarks. This is your floor.

First of all, Tobias and myself, thanks all of the attendees for today's call. It was a pleasure for us to present the financial results, but also give first insights about NEXUS. As we pointed out, it's the starting point. So we are looking forward to a broad conversation and it should be an open conversation because NEXUS is nothing that is, let's say, written in stone. That is something that should be our teams is question how we bring it to life and all feedback or input will help to make it a broader success today's call, please understand also as an invite for a further conversation. And good possibilities for follow-up is the next upcoming earnings call on end of May. And of course, also, let's say, mid of June than the annual meeting. We enjoyed today's call Tobias and myself, especially because there was really a broad number of questions, really good questions. Thanks for that because I gave also a feedback that today's content was really something that was, let's say, well taken by all people dialed in, thanks for that. All to you, have a good week. And for all of us, hopefully, day by day, we are looking in a more safe world. Thanks.

Thank you so much, Klaus. Thank you so much to be us. Thank you so much for everybody who joined this call. Thanks for your great questions. I have a few slides that I just want to show while I'm doing my wrap-up on my end. A couple of things. If you have any additional questions in the aftermath of this call, please feel free to reach out to the IR of R. STAHL. Or also, of course, you can talk to our analysts, if you have any more questions. In addition, we will send out or already have sent out a small questionnaire, a feedback form for this call. We very much appreciate if you take the time to just fill it out so that we can supply the company with feedback about this call. And then, of course, last but not least, this call was recorded, and you will find it a little later today on the R. STAHL web page in the IR section and on Research Hub. I wish you all a great afternoon, and thanks again for joining. See you all on May 7. Bye.