Rebosis Property Fund Limited (REB) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Good morning, ladies and gentlemen, investors. I welcome you this morning, bankers and everyone. Thanks for joining us this morning on our annual results presentation. It's certainly been quite a tough operating environment. And certainly, I think the toughest in decades if not in a century. I won't hesitate on the macro picture. I'd like to get on the order of the day. Let's look at our key highlights. Starting from the top, walking clockwise on Page 2. Our revenue has been impacted by COVID lockdowns, more particularly in the retail space. We've given a lot of concessions to retailers, especially small retailers to ensure the continuity of the businesses during this period. We made no deferrals because we just don't know the uncertainty of the impact of COVID going forward. Hence, we didn't want to put strain on our small tenants in our shopping centers. Secondly, we had an asset disposal from Mdantsane for about ZAR 516 million, which reduced our debt and improved our LTVs. Our vacancy is slightly up at 9.1%. We make the point that if we exclude the NBC and 373 Pretorius, those buildings in Bloemfontein and Pretorius in Pretoria, which ended up conversion for student accommodation. That figure is 6.4%. The total renewed GLA during this period has been some 43,000 square meters. It's been business as usual. We've met all our obligations, debt obligations and all our commitments. We continue to spend CapEx on our business, about ZAR 70 million in this period. We've maintained surplus cash at year-end despite the high LTV that we have, as a company. We've had a clean audit. We've had to restate 2019 at the instance of our auditors, which meant that they signed off a clean audit. You'd recall that last year, we had a qualified audit on the back of disagreement on valuations. That now has been resolved with a clean audit for 2019 and for 2020. Our net property income on a like-for-like basis is down 7.6%, and that's largely due to reprieves passed on COVID and the lost income on the disposal of Mdantsane in that period. Our total assets, as we close the year, ZAR 13.7 billion, which includes intangibles. The WALE for the portfolio, 2.8 years. We'll talk about that later. These are really just our key highlights for the reporting year. We'll walk to Page 3. Again, clockwise. We've successfully rolled all our expiring debt in this period. We have had our valuations resolved, and we think we've rebased our valuations with the bottom end of the cycle. We have resolved the audit differences, which has resulted in a clean audit during this period. We have seen a quicker retail turnaround. Our expectations were much more conservative for our retail portfolio and retail in general. We've had new demand, much higher demand for new space, and we've signed quite a lot of new leases in this period. And we've had quite a good collection rate on retail of about 94%, which really proves the mettle of retail and resilience of our retail in the quick turnaround that we've seen. We completed the Mdantsane sale and transfer. We -- business continuity despite all these difficult challenges that we talk about. We've had progress on office sales. We are about to do -- to have a transfer from Medscheme. And SASSA Campus also nearing completion. We had just some differences, which we're trying to resolve with the buy of those 2 properties. We've made a lot of good progress on our office lease renewals. The 11,870 square meters of renewals that were completed in this period. We've had delays due to COVID lockdowns, but well on our way to renew the 70,959 square meters that are remaining. We make the points that those are just 2 buildings, which is the Diagonal building and the Salu Building in Pretoria. Those 2 buildings alone make up the 65%. They're single-tenanted buildings. So the 70,000 sounds a lot, but it's actually largely just 2 properties. And we've made a lot of progress in our retail letting. We've had 31,000 square meters of renewals that we've been able to achieve in this period. And we've had new lettings of about 20,650 on the back of higher demand for the new space. This is all on the backdrop of the macroeconomic challenges of a declining economy, negative outlook, a weaker currency, poor consumer and business confidence, declining disposable income and then the COVID lockdowns, which prevented businesses from operating and the higher job losses, unemployment we've seen from a macro picture in the country. Against -- the microeconomic challenges again of a declining economic activity and we've seen declining rentals on the retail side. We've seen -- at the same time, we've enjoyed good lease profile of 10-year leases in our office. And that unfortunately happened at the same time that we had the renewals coming up, and we've seen adjustments to office to market rentals because we're growing above inflation at between 8% and 9%. And they went beyond market average rents and that had to adjust at some point, and we've seen that adjusting this period, which had a negative impact on our valuations, and we'll talk about this later. We've seen that our valuations, more particularly the office space have bottomed out, and we've seen the valuations coming up despite the COVID period that we find ourselves. Again, a microeconomic challenge of rise in vacancy across the sector reduced spend by consumers, declining valuations, property rates increases and the COVID-19 loss revenue in an uncertain future, more particularly if there will be further lockdowns. We've seen the President announcing further restrictions in the Nelson Mandela Bay municipality last night. So these things continue to constrain business going forward. So it's really against the background that we're able to achieve all these achievements as a business. I'm now going to hand over to Asathi, our acting financial -- our Chief Financial Officer, who will take you through the financial highlights, and then I'll come back on the operational side of the business. To you, Asathi.

Thank you, Sisa. Good morning, everyone. I'm going through the first slide, which is the distributable income statement. Our property income, excluding straight lining for the current year, is ZAR 1.7 billion. This is a ZAR 211 million decrease from last year's numbers. This is as a result of COVID rental relief given to tenants, as Sisa has alluded to, as well as disposed -- income on our disposed properties where we saw a benefit of 3 months in the current year versus a full year in the prior year. We have also seen a decrease as a result of rent reversions from the renewal of some of our leases. Our corporate and admin costs have gone up and are currently ZAR 175 million in the current year. This is because of transactional costs as well as professional fees, especially legal fees. Our finance costs for the current year are down by ZAR 101 million, and this is because of the proceeds from the sale of Mdantsane that we used to settle the debt. Other interest expenses are as a result of interest accrued on the deferred liability. This results in a total distributable earnings number of ZAR 40 million. Please note that the Board has resolved not to declare dividends in the current year, which means that we have tax payable in our current numbers. Moving on to the next slide. This slide depicts a similar position to the previous slide. However, it excludes once-off items as well as items not in the ordinary course of business. So starting from the top, you will see we started off with a property income of ZAR 1.7 billion. In that number, we have rent concessions given to our tenants as well as income from disposed properties. If you exclude those items, you end up with an adjusted property income number of ZAR 1.773 billion. Similarly, our property expenses started off at ZAR 621 million. From that number, if you exclude once-off items and the provision for bad debts, which is also called a provision for estimated credit losses, you exclude write-offs as well as expenses on the disposed properties, you have an adjusted figure of ZAR 526 million. Our like-for-like net property income, therefore, becomes ZAR 1.2 billion. Carrying forward our normal property of business expenses, we get to a normalized distributable earnings number of ZAR 184 million. Looking at our group balance sheet. At this point, you will notice that our net debt for the current year has come down. This is mainly due to the sale of Mdantsane. If I take you through the previous 2 columns, you will see that for 2019 we have 2 columns: one is our previously reported numbers and the middle column is our restated figures. We have had to restate our 2019 numbers to align them to our audited numbers from the previous year. The main differences in the 2019 columns is on our property valuations. We had previously reported our property values to be ZAR 15.6 billion in the previous financial year. We have now readjusted that number to ZAR 13.2 billion. As a result of that, you will see that our loan-to-value has now increased from 64.5% in the prior year to the restated figure of 75.7%. Looking at the current year, this has also resulted in LTV coming down to 72.4%, mainly due to the disposal of Mdantsane. Our fixed debt is now 38.6%. We have seen an expiry of ZAR 1 billion interest rate cap, and we have seen -- we are now left in our books with a ZAR 2.7 billion cap, which is expiring in October 2021. Net cost of debt is 8.5%, and our interest cover ratio is 1.2%. It is important to note that both the net cost of debt and the interest cover ratio, we are likely to benefit from the reductions in the interest rate, which we'll see the full benefit of in the coming financial year. Please move on to the next slide. I will now take you through our group's tangible NAV bridge per the REB shares. We are starting off with a restated 2019 figure of ZAR 3.15. From that, you will see that our A shares -- share price in the A shares has come down, which has now resulted in a benefit on the B shares, hence the increase of ZAR 1.13. Further to that, the reduction of our debt as a result of the disposal of Mdantsane and settling of that debt has resulted in a further increase in our NAV value. You'll notice that the rest of the other items remain fairly flat. And maybe I'd like to highlight that our current tax payable position is because of the fact that we did not distribute a dividend in the current year, which makes us liable for tax. Derivative instruments has caused a decline in our NAV, clearly because of the decrease in the interest rates. And we can then see that our investment property number has shown a decline of ZAR 0.18 to our NAV, and this is coming through from the disposal of Mdantsane. Our closing NAV for the REB shares then becomes ZAR 4.54. I'll hand it back to Sisa.

Thank you, Asathi, for that. So we'll walk through the overview of our property portfolio and then we'll then walk through to our outlook thereafter. So starting on Page 10. Starting at the top, again, going clockwise. Our WALE, we mentioned, it's 2.8 years. There's another slide later that breaks it down. Total GLA that was renewed operationally was 43,000 square meters. And the new escalations on the new lettings, which is quite important, on the retail is 6.4% and office 7.8%. So that's been quite a nice escalation of new lettings in office space. We do make the point that those were smaller tenants in our office space, mostly our [ office box ] down south of Jo'burg and so on. The government lettings, which are really on renewals is dealt with later, and that's generally about 6.5%. The office WALE is about 2.3 years that we have on the back of continuing renewals that we're seeing in the office space, which gives rise to the total vacancy of 9.5%. Again, retail at 9.1% and office at 9.2%, very similar. But office does go down if you take into account the 373 Pretorius and NBC buildings which are under conversion. The retail WALE is about 3.7 years, again on the back of renewals -- continued renewals that we're seeing on the retail. COVID casualties. We're proud to say we've had none. That's naturally on the back of the concessions that we made to ensure sustainability of our tenants across the board on the retail space. We'd like to mention that, that excludes Edgars and Dion Wired, which, in our view, would have occurred regardless of COVID-19 lockdowns. Then the retail trading density, I think this is an important point. We've had a growth of 0.5% despite the lockdowns which restricted or constrained retail from trading in this period. Moving to Page 11. So what we're doing here is to really just illustrate the impact of what these lockdowns have done on the back of COVID-19. We enjoyed -- starting from the left, September, October, November, December, we enjoyed a very good growth from a trading density perspective right through to the month of March. And then when the lockdowns were announced the last week of -- sorry, to the end of February. When the lockdowns were announced from the month of March, you could see we were down 7.8% on trading density; month of April, 16.2% down. Month of May really represents the peak that happened when the fashion was allowed to trade. I think there are a lot of markdowns from retailers for summer stock, the introduction of winter stock. And there was a frenzy people tied up in home. And so we saw a growth on those retail figures, which then not just stabilized but went backwards in the month of June because people had acquired what they wanted to do, and that continued in the month of July. And then we started seeing growth again from the month of August. We take you through on the next page, Page 12, on a similar trajectory on turnover growth. We thought we'll just show these for you. So what you see here is really just what the lockdowns have done to both turnover and the rental sales during that period. Again, starting from September to February, you've seen a growth on turnover across the sector despite the poor economic background in all the factors we mentioned from the macro and the micro picture. And then we get to March, we see a decline of 7.8% in turnover, 16.2% in April and a slight tick up in May on the back of that fashion coming off. And then again, a decline in June and July and then pick in August. This is very much in line with the joint density as well. And on the next page, we then go to the granularity of the trading performance in this reporting period. This includes the rent concession months. So it's just a full 12 months of the reporting period. And we've seen the highest growth in electronics, interestingly, followed by health and beauty, followed by the food. Food has always been quite a big performer, and they contribute quite a big turnover. And then we're seeing the sporting. I think sport has always been quite a big contributor, and it's seen quite a lot of good growth, if you consider that you've had those months where turnover and trading density was down. And then you've got the food, largely neutral, but a big contributor to turnover. I believe the category is below, for more detail for anyone interested to look into that detail. But if you look at the apparel unisex, that's around minus 7% during that period. It's really just the -- those turnover months that you saw the decline in -- during the lockdowns that contributed to that largely. So that's really been quite interesting. I think food service given that the food and entertainment and restaurants kicked off much later, you see that as a negative 20-odd right at the end. That's really just the impact of lockdowns on that category. Then we go to Page 14. Page 14 really just breaks down the granularity of our properties, retail, 5 shopping planters; office, 36 properties; and industrial, 1 property; 42 properties with our ZAR 13.2 billion of value. And then we give the square meterage below that and how we arrive at the weighted average lease profile of 2.8 and the average rent that we have. Again, if you look at the office, given the reverted rentals, we still have a healthy ZAR 128 a square meter. The average contractual escalation we spoke about earlier is about 6.6%, which is 6.4% on retail, 6.8%. I think now you're seeing more correlation of these kind of escalations on the back of a low inflation environment, and hence, the average of 6.6%. If we go to Page 15. Page 15 really just to run you through our reversions on both office and retail have been about 17%. The impact on the portfolio of those reversions has been about negative 1.2%. Just to go back on that negative 17%, it's -- the retail is really just on the back of the poor economic background, the pressure from retailers, who can't pass product inflation into the consumer. And landlord, obviously, is the one always on the face of this. And we've seen these reversions across the sector. We've incurred on all our renewals about 17.2%. I think you've seen the retailers now moving manufacturing locally. We've seen Foschini, Woolworths all announcing that they will be sponsoring and procuring locally because the product inflation that is factored through imports which are dollar affected and we've seen the slide of the rand against the dollar. We've had a recent strength, but it's very hard for them to push that into product inflation because once you hike up your prices on -- and inflate your goods, you just simply lose sales. And then on the office, it really just reversions we spoke about that had pressure on that minus 17.4%. But the impact on the portfolio on those renewals has been subdued to minus 1.2%. We have outstanding GLA that has been delayed by the lockdowns, more particularly in the office. That 70,000 made up of largely the 2 buildings that we spoke about. And the nonrenewals, we've had 13,000 of nonrenewals in the retail space and only 1,600 in office space. That's on the backdrop of new vacancy -- sorry, yes, new vacancy that's been filled up of about 20,000 that we spoke about earlier. We'll talk about it later. And the new contracted escalations on renewals of about 6%. I made a point about this earlier. So the retail is about 5.9% on the back of low inflation rates and 6.3% on the office, yes. So we also give you this breakdown of the number of leases that the team has been busy with. Then if we move on to Page 16. So this is really just for noting, the lease expiry profile. Starting again with the retail, 13% of the retail came up, in the following year 16% and so on in 2. So it's a very nice spread of those renewal cycle on the retail. The office 34%, which includes what is outstanding on that 70,000 that we spoke about. Then after you go to 19% and then very minor, I think a lot of it now has -- is beyond 2025 on the back of renewals that we've seen -- that we've achieved. And then on Page 17. Page 17 really just illustrates how managed vacancy during the period. We've had 55,000 square meters of vacancy as of the end of last reporting period, which was 7.4% in retail and 6.5%. We then had lease terminations which increased that vacancy of 25,000 retail and 21,000 office. We then had new vacancy lets in the retail space of 20,600, which I spoke about earlier, which has been quite good to lower our vacancy. So much as we lost on lease terminations and nonrenewals, we gained a lot on the vacancies in the retail space with new contracted escalations at 6.4%, giving rise to a vacancy of 26,000 on the retail side. Likewise on the office side, new vacancy lets of 7,400, with new contracted escalations and the ultimate vacancy of 47,000 square meters, which gives us the overall 73,000, 9.1%. Again, I make the point that we've got the NBC and the Pretorius buildings under conversion to student accommodation. We'll be spending that money shortly to convert those buildings. And excluding those 2, that vacancy is actually 6.4%. Then moving on to Page 18. So this is really just, again, for noting. vacancy schedule per shopping mall. So we always just strip out the shopping malls, Baywest, Forest Hill. Forest Hill really increased on the back of the closing of Edgars in this period. And then Hemingways, again, it's the banks. We've got [ Vincent ] with the regional offices of the bank space in Vincent which is about 1 kilometer away from the mall, and that just shot up the vacancy in that center. And then Bloed Street. Bloed Street, we've had Absa Bank that downsize from 1,500 to a different location. We're busy converting that to food court and that's the reason behind that high vacancy of 6.7% because it's really just a commuter center that does very well for us. The Sunnypark is the office space above the retail, 3 levels. That is at 5%. We -- plans are foods to actually convert that to virtual space, breaking it down for smaller tenants and small offices for people to be able to rent on a virtual basis and common boardrooms and things like that. All right. Then we move on to Page 20 -- sorry, page 19. Page 19 is really just for noting. This is a breakdown of our exposure, segmented exposure by rental income overall. So I won't go into too much detail on the top 10 national retailers except to say Edgars has really become a very small part of our business at 1.1%, following the close of Forest Hill and the reletting of some of that space and the downsizing 2 years ago at Baywest of the Edgars. The local government making 4.3%. I think the national government makes about 25.5% and the provincial 24%. We do have more detail of the breakdown of each of office and each of retail on the annexures to our presentation. We then move on to Page 20. So we thought this is quite important. So this is the decrease overall of our valuation. This is valuation cycle. This illustrates how our valuations have dropped and in the office have started now to go up on the back of the new renewals that we've done. So you've seen a 3% increase in value like-for-like in August on the back of that office uptick. This is based on the restated numbers that we've had where we've taken full valuation, impact devaluation in 2019. The retail has seen overall devaluation of 20% over a 3-year period -- or 3-year cycle from the high of 28,000 to 20,000. And in this reporting period at 5.9% on the back of COVID lockdowns, et cetera. And the office, an overall 21.4% over the last 3 years from a high of 18,000 square meter to the current 14,000 square meter. It's pleasing to see that it's really bottomed out from 2019 and 2020. We've now seen an uptick on the back of the new leases that we signed that are now starting to enjoy escalations going forward. The small regionals have had an impact of 12.3% over the last 3 years from the highs of 27,900 square meter value to the current 23,000. And in this reporting period, an impact of 3.7% negative percentage on the back of the COVID lockdowns. The industrial property, really just 1 property that reverted to market and its rentals and hence the impact that you see there. And then if we move on to Page 21. This is really just a CapEx breakdown. We take the large CapEx spends per property. And overall, ZAR 70 million is broken down with the highest money having been spent on Hemingways. Hemingways is now some 11 years, and it's a center that we've paid more attention to in terms of the upgrades that we put to it to keep it attractive for our consumer and relevant. And then the next one was Baywest Mall, followed by VWL Building, followed by Diagonal Street and Grand Central in Capetown, et cetera. It's quite straightforward in the script well described for you. ZAR 4 million of that was income yielding and ZAR 66 million of that was really just defensive CapEx that we spend. Again, despite constrained environment, concessions that we've seen on lockdowns which all diminish your revenue and cash, we continue to spend good money on our properties to keep them attractive for not only our tenants but our consumers in the market. We then move on to Page 22. 22 is really just a breakdown per month of our rental concessions, what makes up that ZAR 70 million before bad debt write-offs for our tenants to keep them trading and we've seen all our tenants now have come back. They're trading well. And again, as I said, retail comeback has been a lot faster than -- and more pleasing than we assumed at the start. So these rental concessions are stated as the actual rental reprieve for each month. We opted, again, as I said at the start, to provide full concessions instead of any deferral to safeguard the long-term sustainability of these tenants. And as a result of these, we've had no casualties in the retail space. So that's really just -- I won't go through each month, but the month of April was certainly the highest, ZAR 37 million. And then we move on to Page 23. Again, Page 23 is a breakdown per month of the impact on rental collections. You've seen again, the month of April being the lowest at 73%. I think we did give the market more granularity at our pre-close of the retail in particular as opposed to overall. These are overall figures because retail was around 22% because only grocers and pharmacies were trading in the month of April. But overall, because of the defensive nature of our office, our government certainly being at 100% in those periods working and hence paying our rent, assisted us to achieve those averages at 73% despite the low retail because that was the hardest lockdown month. And that improved in May to 78%, June 88% and so on, leading to August of 95% and currently at -- as of October 96%. The total collections expressed as a percentage of total billings here per month, and the collection rates are stated after rent concessions. So that's really the picture there. And we'll move on then to Page 24. We, again, make the point that in the retail portfolio, there were 3 stores of -- 3 Edgars stores and 5 Jet stores and 1 Dion-wired store. As we all know that Edcon entered into business rescue during the lockdown. Of the 9 stores, 1 Edgars was lost at Forest Hill. We're pleased to say all the other stores continue to trade at Hemingways and Baywest. And 1 Dion-wired was also closed at Baywest on the back of all Dion-wired stores closure by March month. All the remaining 7 stores of Edcon have been retained in our portfolio by the new owners. Then I move to the exciting part, the overview and the outlook for the business. And just starting on the overview. Our observations really in our business is that we continue to operate a sound business, and we continue to fulfill our obligations. We've retained over 90% of tenants in a worst cycle. This is the renewal cycle. And we continue to attract new tenants as we've seen renewed demand for space on the retail side in particular. Two, we are maintaining the ability to generate surplus cash reserves after spending money on CapEx. We still have Boxwood historical. We sold Boxwood a while ago. We had some ZAR 45 million to spend. I will continue to spend that from our cash in the business, which is the historic DD CapEx that we still have. We've got about ZAR 12 million remaining on that. We, thirdly, have seen that the reduction in interest rates impacted us positively. It was a portion of the reporting period, and the full benefit will be seen in 2021. Again, we still have a swap that is out of money for about ZAR 2.7 billion. And this lower interest rate, we'll see through 2021 and it will improve our ICR as a business. And we've seen an upswing from the restated valuations, which implies bottoming out of our values. That's the ZAR 391 million upswing we've seen on the back of what we spoke about earlier. The COVID-19 impact continues to affect retail negatively, although the retail turnaround is ahead of our expectation and we've seen an improvement in food and beverage and services and entertainment sectors. Further lockdowns would certainly adversely affect the retail turnaround that we've seen. From an outlook perspective, the interest rate decrease, as I said, will continue to have material positive impacts in our business and our debt levels. The interest rates benefit will improve the interest rate cover ratio and returns in turn for shareholders. The defensive nature of our office portfolio will continue to mitigate the risk of low growth and the COVID-19 on retail portfolio. As I said, unless really there's more lockdowns on the retail side, the numbers should improve on the back of the low interest rates. The lease renewal process in the office sector, we see that picking up momentum post lockdowns. Government couldn't work properly during lockdowns, and we've seen renewed improvement on office renewals post lockdown. We'll have a continued focus on deleveraging the funds to achieve optimal capital structure. That's the elephant in the room, the LTV levels. And we'll do that focusing on bulk disposals which have been delayed by the lockdowns, and we've had positive interest, more particularly in the office space, given the defensive nature of it in a downward cycle like this and lockdowns. We have the opportunity looking forward to advance and accelerate the office disposal negotiations that were delayed by COVID-19. And we'll assess opportunities that have progressed, leading to either take private or a substantial disposal process staying on as we are that would lead to low LTV, and we're quite confident on those. Lastly, I want to say we have a lot of slides that have more detail on our presentation that we haven't gone through. We do encourage everyone to go through while they're still fresh in their minds. And I want to say a word of thanks to our Board that's been quite supportive of management and held our hands. We appreciate all the input that they have on us as the executives and the management to all the staff and the team, more particularly in this tough environment and to Asathi having taken over recently leading up to a clean audit, which has been achieved under most tough circumstances on the back of a qualified report we had -- audit report we had last year. I want to say a word of thanks to our funders who have continued to support our business and as well as all our investors and fund managers. Thank you very much. We now move to questions and answers. Thank you.

Thank you very much. So the first question is from Kundayi Munzara at Sesfikile. He asks, please could you take us through the significant increase in corporate and admin expenses of 23%. Could you highlight the items that drove this?

Morne, do you prefer to just narrate the questions, then we can just go through. Are there too many or it's just one?

There's quite a number of questions, quite a number of follow-up questions as well.

Okay. All right. Okay. It's up to you.

Sure. Thank you, Morne. The biggest item on our corporate and admin costs remains our legal fees. And that's the majority of it. The transactional costs are not that big. We are talking -- if I may just get to the slide, corporate and admin costs have increased by ZAR 33 million and of that about ZAR 13 million related to our legal fees.

I think given the current environment we find ourselves in, we've had to end the disposals and the process, I mean that whole process where we went through possible measure with delta and so on. So we had a lot of consultants and lawyers going through that and the disposal process.

Thanks. Thank you very much, Sisa. And then Suren Naidoo from Moneyweb asks, with a relatively high retail exposure of the fund to the Eastern Cape, please comment on the possible impact of further COVID-19 restrictions in Port Elizabeth, how much the fund is big or small?

Thanks. That's an important question. Thank you. Yes. So if there's further lockdown, certainly, that will be impacted. Baywest will be negatively impacted. We've seen what April has done. Overall, with all the lockdowns throughout the entire retail space, we had the defensive office that assisted that, and we came out at 73%, as I mentioned. So if Nelson Mandela is affected on its own, that would still drop the 96% collection rates currently to -- I can't give you a precise figure, but I think it certainly wouldn't be as low as what we've seen in the month of April, which is 73%.

Thank you. Then 2 questions around LTV. The first from Suren again. What is the group's total debt? And that's the latest LTV of around 72%, I mean it has bridged its covenants or have the banks increased the covenant level, like it's done for others in the sector? And then [ Harun Jina, ] a private investor is asking the LTV, how is this going to be reduced to 40%? And what is the ROI on Forest Hill? How long before the banks call in facilities?

So I think -- I mean, I mentioned that, that's the elephant in the room from our perspective. This is on the back of what we've seen as bottoming out of our valuations. Going forward, we've seen our valuations now starting to tick up on the back of new leases and escalations going forward, which is very good for the future. The covenants, obviously, were breached a while ago. We had waiver from the banks to accommodate us and on the back of what would be a progress on disposals and leading to a cure of that LTV. I think hypothetically speaking, if you took our office portfolio and had a bulk sale of that, it would fall below 40% with our retail and it will channel us into the retail fund we always want it to be. So that's really where we're focusing.

Thanks. Thank you very much. Then [ Nazeem from Ninety One ] asks, can you provide more color on the debt expiry profile on Slide 31, how much is expected to be paid in FY '21? And if not, what will margin be on the new debt?

So if you look at, say -- you can -- if you look at Slide 31 on the annexures, you'll see that's covered there on the debt expiry profile. So we have a big portion of that into the short term, but Asathi can comment on that. Currently, as long as the LTVs are where they are, we are at prime. Asathi, I don't know if you want to add anything?