Renaissance Services SAOG (RNSS) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Very good morning to everyone. Thank you very much for attending our quarterly Investors and Analyst Meeting for Renaissance Services SAOG. It's always good to have you on these calls. And I'm here with CFO, Raashid Ali and myself, Stephen Thomas, CEO, to answer your questions. For those of you who are regular to this, you know this is your meeting, not ours, so we're interested in your questions. One of the feedbacks we've had from some of you since the last meeting is that you'd like to at least get some sort of overview of the actual businesses and how they're doing at the start of this, so we're happy to provide that, that can inform the direction of your question. But remember, it's up to you so you can ask your questions on any subject at all. But we're happy to give that overview. You remember, last time we met, there were a number of issues that we were still waiting to close out, and we come into this year now with a lot of optimism and confidence because the predictability and certainty of what we can see ahead in terms of our revenues and profits for the year is now much clearer. So let me take you briefly through each of the business areas. The first area is our pure services side with our soft FM and hard FM contracts that we provide. You may recall last year, we had a large amount of our existing business coming up for retender, coming up for renegotiation or extension, and a number of those issues were still not closed out when we last met. Well, we're very happy to say that's all finished now, and we've had extremely successful results with that. And the important thing is this is not a case of looking at these as the same contract renewed so that we've stayed in the same place. These contracts have been completely renegotiated, retendered, including all the additional costs of doing business that has occurred over recent times, partly with reforms, partly with COVID and other issues that have influenced that. And it's not just that we've passed all the cost on to our clients. We've worked with clients in terms of ways of modifying scope and so on so that it's also bringing efficiencies for them. But these are new contracts at new prices that where we have had to absorb some of those costs and we were suffering in some of those contracts before, that is now behind us, and we have really a great new portfolio of relationships to operate over the contract periods in the services side. The second piece is always important is Renaissance Village Duqm. We spoke last time that we know that this year is going to be a transition year, a hiatus between the end of the construction phase of the Duqm refinery building and the start of any new projects coming forward. So what we've been working on in the gap is actually the cost base of that. We've got a major operational excellence exercise happening and what we're doing in terms of efficiencies and changes, investing in sustainability issues that drive down energy usage or water usage. All of our core value programs are driving efficiencies into the business. And so at Duqm what's very important is we've brought down the break-even levels in terms of at the PAT level, we break even at 6,000, and EBITDA is 5,000 now. So it's significant drops in both of those points where we keep the business profitable and we made, as a management team, that commitment to our Board. We are going to make profit in Duqm, however small or medium size that might be. We are going to make sure that we do not sustain losses in Duqm and this year has started well with these reductions. We can see that and the predictability and certainty of that is clear for us. What's important as well for Duqm is that during that transition year is what is coming down the line. Now we have a couple of small projects. There's a road building project bringing 350 people in shortly. We're currently at 7,000. You may remember this time last year, we were at 12,000. So that's reflecting the end of the refinery construction phase. You will all have heard of the new projects coming. Petchem is now back on with an Omani, Kuwaiti, Saudi shareholding. That's not going to impact us in '23, but it is going to impact us in '24. And again, we're working with the lead clients in that. We're working with OPAZ and SEZAD, the authorities, all of whom are right behind us in ensuring that this international labor organization minimum standard at affordable cost will be the requirement and people will be required for those projects to stay with us. So that is giving us a lot of -- we've got a lot of boost of confidence around Duqm, as we start to see things like Jindal Steel coming, cement projects, a little later, the green hydrogen projects. But we're in conversations with all of these parties. And although the hiatus, that transition year is going to be there, it's under control and we can see the improvements. We've got one cyclical client who comes for a couple of months at a time, who's going to give us a boost to 3,000 people at the end of the year. So there's some little joys and hopes around that as well that it's going to come. So Duqm, very much under control in terms of how it impacts 2023. The next piece, of course, is our PACs, the PDO villages, and there, we also have good news. We're working with clients. We hope to be making a formal announcement shortly, but there's an absolute requirement to increase our 7,500 beds by a further 2,000 beds, and this will be done in temporary accommodation. And so it's rapid builds and will start to impact during the year. And that will be for 5 years until it transitions into more permanent opportunities. So those are the 3 businesses. That's what's happening in those businesses and it allows us to start our conversation with you today in a spirit of confidence about the future. Thank you. Over to you for your questions.

I think, Sameer.

Sameer, yes.

Sameer, do you have any questions?

A couple of questions all really follow-up from what Steve has mentioned. Since you mentioned that the RSVD also in your report, so you have mentioned that this year the RSVD occupancy would be around 42%. So what I -- from my calculation, you made some losses in the fourth quarter in your Duqm operations, right? That's what I got from my calculation. And what kind of cost cutting are you planning at this segment? And are you expecting that this segment to be profitable in 2023? That's my first question. Second question is on -- you mentioned about Saudi expansion plan. Could you give me some more clarity on that? And yes, these are the 2 questions I have.

Thank you, Sameer. So on Renaissance Village Duqm, Raashid, you can confirm this, we'd no losses in the last quarter of last year, it remained profitable. In terms of cost cutting, this is not about reducing standards. This is about rolling out sustainability issues, rolling out operational excellence program. Of course, when the occupancy falls, there's also head count numbers that are not required. We've got things like the automation program in the laundry has brought back cost savings in energy, water and people. So these are very real cost savings. And just as each year, we've managed to bring down that break-even level, there's a significant shift in that this year. So I'll let Raashid, if you want to expand on that, and then I'll come back on Saudi in a moment, Sameer.

Sameer, what we're doing in Duqm, we realize that this is a timing issue where our occupancies are running slightly low and they will pick up towards quarter 3. What we are running is a 6-point program, which is around operational excellence and thinking about efficiencies in our Duqm operations. So essentially, we've done building consolidation, smart metering and monitoring our utility costs and other costs, rationalizing our manpower more to reflect what the actual occupancy is and in order to bring more efficiencies around our ops excellence. We've actually gone ahead and taken a loan related to Duqm in order to bring our finance cost down for 2023 because we were sitting on a large amount of cash at that point of time. We're managing our wastage around raw, cooked, bank related. We are negotiating with our suppliers in order to get better rebates and progressive rebates. We have tried to consolidate some of our suppliers in order to leverage those rebates more. Essentially, what we're trying to do is we're rightsizing across own parameters to run really slick and agile operation even as our occupancy moves up.

Yes. No, thanks, Raashid, and as a point we made earlier, these initiatives don't just apply in Duqm. We often use Duqm as a proof of concept on some issues and then roll it out across the entire organization. If I can turn to your question on Saudi, Sameer, Saudi Arabia offers tremendous opportunity going forward. There's a lot of mega projects. Whichever camp you're in, that they will all happen or they won't all happen, there are a number of them already starting and being rolled out. The Neon project is a very good example. On Neon, we're actually being through the prequalification process and we're prequalified. What's very important to do business in Saudi is to actually be registered there and have boots on the ground. And so that we have to do. The RFQ for that is coming out in July. You want to know the scope of it? They need to house 215,000 people in units of 10,000 and 5,000. So if we were to win 1 of those 10,000, it's bigger than our PDO. PACs, even with the extension we're getting now. If we win 2 of them, it becomes another Duqm, et cetera. And what's interesting is that area is in one of our USP areas because Saudi is very, very keen to implement United Nations, International Labor Organization Standards at affordable costs. That's core to business. It's core to what we do in Duqm. So we see a real opportunity there. We've got to -- of course, there are other companies in Saudi. What Saudi is actually seeing is that its existing services base cannot meet the demand of the growth that is coming in that market. So we have to be swift afoot to get in there. And importantly, our low debt and our healthy capital structure that you see in our balance sheet means that we're able to invest and get behind these opportunities if we are successful, although we will, of course, be open to collaboration, looking at co-investors. We're already talking along those lines as well, the same as we did in Duqm. So whilst we have many other growth opportunities, I'm happy to talk about if you want, but Saudi is one of them, and we're already actively entering it in the manner I just described. Thank you.

I think Bishen has a question. Hi, Bishen.

Hello?

Is that Bishen? Hi?

Yes. This is Bishen Bhalla from Vision Capital. A couple of questions to start with. We've looked at Q4 and whilst the revenue was up about 11% Y-o-Y, I noticed a big jump in the operating cost and primarily driven by raw materials and staff costs. If you could just touch upon that to start with?

Yes. The main thing Q4 increase in operating cost is we did a one-off project that was high volume. It wasn't high profit. It's higher revenue and costs affected. But that's what's given this peak in actual operating costs in that quarter. I think what's important to look at is other things that have grown like our earnings per share is north of 20% growth. So that cost spike is a specific project, not about our overall costs increasing. Raashid, do you have anything to add to that?

No. Nothing. So essentially, the increase, there has been an increase in revenue and cost and it's all related to a one-off project, which was executed by the company in a certain geography. And it's -- that is it. Anything else that you want to know, ask.

Yes. Sort of seeing what you have about 2023 and the outlook for Duqm and all these initiatives that you put in place for cost rationalization as you scale up occupancy going into '24, what kind of margins are you looking at for the company for 2023 and then on to '24, when you actually see the occupancy added as a kicker?

So Bishen, I'm skating on thin ice here because as you know, we don't give forward-looking statements in terms of profitability. But I have already made that statement. If you're asking about Duqm specifically, we're very clear with our Board and because we see a clear path to being profitable in this year, whereas, you will note from prior years at these levels of occupancy, we would have been talking about losses in Duqm. So we're not expecting any losses in Duqm, and then when you look at the enhanced issues that we're describing happening in the services business with the retender that we won, recalibrated rates and what is happening in the oil and gas field in terms of expansion and increased occupancy expected there, then those will be the growth areas in this year. There are other growth opportunities that we're looking at, but these are tenders that are happening in the year. If I think in Oman, we've got opportunities in waste management, we've got opportunities in utilities, which if they happen, in the case of the utility market, would start in this year and would have an effect. But in terms of the existing businesses, we are expecting to deliver as good or better profitability than the previous year from the combination of reasons that we've described. I can't give an actual margin that you're asking for. Thank you.

I understand and I respect that. Steve, you had -- if I'm not mistaken, a while ago, you had mentioned that EBITDA break-even occupancy levels should be around 6,000 after putting all the initiatives that you have. Is that correct?

Sorry. I think Steve mentioned that EBITDA breakeven would be at 5,000 levels and PAT breakeven would be at 6,000 levels.

Great. My apologies. Now before you put in all these initiatives or let's say, a year ago, what was PAT and EBITDA breakeven just to sort of have an idea of what impact it's had. If you could just give us some color?

If you remember before, we said that we would break even at 6,500. So we've completely changed that. Now they're down to 5,000 for EBITDA. So it is significant here.

Noted. Okay, that's great. Last question is regards to the expansion plan for this upcoming project in Saudi. If Renaissance were to win this bid, when would we see the revenues coming in? What is the buildup phase, et cetera? If you could just give us some details on that?

So the RFP has to come out. We're just done the RFQ. So we don't have visibility until the RFP comes out as to what the actual mobilization date will be. What we are aware of is that it is a very clear and present need. They're looking at temporary accommodation, so it's rapid build again. So whether it would in terms of the length of time for decision and then actual award and whether would it affect in this year is not clear at this point in time. But the sense of it is there's that kind of urgency around it. We will -- as soon as the RFP document comes out in July, we'll have clarity around that.

All right. Noted. Thank you so much, Steve. Wish you all the best. Take care.

Thank you very much, Bishen.

Thank you.

Yes. So we've got a question that's come in from Deepak, who is asking us about our Qatar operation. Well, in a sense we've touched on it without mentioning it by name. Because again, there's disclosure issues around clients and what you're allowed to say and not to say. We did a very large project, a short-term project in Qatar at the end of last year. And our objective for that was to establish our operational capability on the ground. You remember we told you we've already formed our joint venture there with our partners, that was already done. We had the platform to bid and win. We did bid and we did win, and it was great to have an Omani company as this was for a major sporting event and there were 8 stadia here involved and one or the other winners were given one stadium and one company got the 3 largest stadium and that was our own company. And I'd like to actually say your company too because of your interest and investors as well. So operationally, it went extremely well. We didn't make money. We had planned to make bank margin because we really wanted to win. We didn't. We had some losses there. But all those losses are fully recorded in the 2022 accounts, although we're still talking with the client about final account, et cetera, and things so that, that could alter slightly. But it was a successful project in relation to establishing great reputation and demonstrating operational capability. Thank you. So that was Deepak's with a written question. We've got another hand up there which is…

Mr. Thomas.

Yes.

Mr. Thomas, can you hear us.

Yes. This is [ Joyce ] from United Securities.

[ Joyce ], how are you?

How are you? Hiding behind a different name.

I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I don't know if it's a different name.

No apologies. No apologies required. It's good to hear you. Go ahead, [ Joy ].

Yes. So we have discussed about Duqm. And see, the demand side, we understand that, but what I understand is we had some exclusivity period in Duqm for quite some time. And can you touch upon those exclusivity period when is it going to expire? Or is it expired already? And can you touch upon the supply, the additional supply that is coming in Duqm and the regulations in terms of what I understand is some companies are allowed to provide their own worker accommodation facilities. So on those aspects, if you can give us an overview of what was happening there, then that would be much appreciated.

Of course. So the original exclusivity period was to be from when we first registered the business and started the design and construction in 2014 to 2024. Because of some of the issues that we've had, we've renegotiated with SEZAD, with the authority, who recognized in terms of fairness to us that, that should be extended. So it was taken back to the SEZAD Board who will prove that the 10-year exclusivity should run from when we first did the soft opening of the facility, which was in 2017. And so it now runs as an exclusivity period to 2027. Now let's understand what that exclusivity is because that's the second part of your question, [ Joy ], which is also some of the problems we've had in earlier projects where a mission -- well, there were various things happening. Some contractors, some employers were against the SEZAD rules electing to put their workforce into extremely poor, very low standard accommodation, including cramming them 100 people into 4-bedroom villas and these sort of practices. We're aware it happens elsewhere. It's not supposed to happen in Duqm and it's not supposed to happen around projects. We've got international financing. So this was alarming to the authorities and alarming to us as well in terms of our business. It was also the fact that permission was granted for what we call approved camps. So these are camps that the client and the authority have approved that are supposed to meet the standard. So the problem that we had with those going into what were frankly conditions of modern slavery, has been dealt with by the authorities and it took time, took a lot of effort to get a coalition of all the authorities together because everyone agreed it had to be stopped, but getting that authority done. That has happened. There will still be some examples, particularly in villas, but those camps have gone, they've been taken away. What hasn't been taken away yet are the approved camps. Now our problem with approved camps was that whilst these were fairly decent camps in terms of passing muster if you want somebody to have a bed and a meal, and go to work and back again. They did not meet any of the standards in relation to the medical care and backup that's required by ILO in terms of the recreation and lifestyle and dignity, in terms of free WiFi and connections home, et cetera. These are basic requirements. The ILO standard is not that it's so high and so costly. That's why our model gives it on an economy of scale basis that makes it affordable. But what we can't compete with are if facilities are approved that are not at the competitive standard. It is a fact, and we're very happy to go into direct competition with this, if you apply the standard and require that camp to be built on a temporary basis and removed at the end of the project, it cannot compete with our rents. The EPC contracts has recognized that and all stayed with us. I think we've also taken bids that we won for camps outside that were a higher cost than staying with us. So that has been an issue. And that issue and the unfairness of that in relation to the commitment to us is recognized by the authorities. And for that reason, they've extended our exclusivity period because they realize we missed out an element -- there's significant elements of occupancy that should have been ours by right. So going forward, what we're getting absolute assurances from Minister level, as well as the executive of OPAZ and SEZAD that this will not be allowed to happen. There's been a clear decision along with Ministry of Housing. No one working inside the zone will be allowed to stay in camps, in Ministry of Housing land, on the periphery of the zone. That is now clear and will not be allowed to happen going forward. The issue with the approved camps, what happened before the major projects were starting, we were building and their tenders were going out. So until they know that our facility is there, until they know that we've got the capacity for them, there was always an option to build your own camp as long as it met the standard. And that's a piece that didn't happen. People did build, they get approved, but it wasn't to the standard. And so that, the authorities don't want to go through that again. They don't -- neither the authorities nor the main project developers and project owners don't have the capacity to police and monitor the standards in multiple camps. Everybody wants, including the security of the rule around police, everyone wants those workforces to stay where they are safe and cared for at Renaissance Village Duqm. Yes, our company owns that facility, but it's actually the country. It's the whole SEZAD project in Duqm that really owns it too. And it's a great enabler for that. And so what went wrong in the previous period, people from authorities to major developers don't want to make those mistakes again. And they're coming in behind us in requiring those workforces to stay in our accommodation. It's essential. The international financing requires it. They come and audit the facilities. The big tick in the box came after Renaissance Village Duqm was built. So I hope that answers your question. Sorry to take a little long on it, [ Joyce ], but it's a really important part of why our confidence in what's coming down the track at Duqm has increased. Thank you.

I think Sameer has a question.

Yes. Just one follow-up question. On your UAE operations, you mentioned about the reorganization of that business last year. So what does that mean in 2023 in terms of financials? Because that's been a drag for the last few years, right? And the second question is on the Saudi.

What's your second question?

Yes, on the Saudi project you mentioned because I know Saudi Government is very keen on the local content and how you're going for it. Like are you going alone? Or is there any local partner for you? That's it.

Well, I'll answer the UAE question to you first, Sameer. The UAE continues to be a very important market for Renaissance across solutions that we have to offer. As we grow our footprint across services in the UAE and better equip ourself to understand the market dynamic, our performance continues to improve as we understand the market better. Last year was a decent year. We expect this year to be a much, much better year as far as UAE operations grow.

And the second question, Sameer, on Saudi, you're absolutely right. Local content is critical through our success in that market. And one thing I'd like to make clear from what I said before, it's not just this project. We're looking at that at the whole market. This project offers us a great opportunity and a real demand for something that we're very good at, so we're very keen to get that going. Now, yes, on paper, we could be a foreign branch there and we could own it 100%. I agree with the premise of your question. We're not going to win from that point of view. We must have local content. We're going to register a legal entity on the ground in Saudi as a matter of urgency. We are exploring JV options and other options. There are options that can look at just a partner for a particular project, like Neon, that we've decided, and then more general partnership and ownership for the larger market. These are on the agenda, need to be resolved urgently. And so we will have the decision and it will be finalized before the RFP comes in July.

That's very clear. I wish you all the best. You guys have handled much larger challenges before. So I'm quite sure it should be a much easy walk for you guys. All the best. Thank you.

Thank you, Sameer.

Thank you. Mr. Thomas?

I think it's [ Joyce ]. It's [ Joyce ] again.

Ah. It's [ Joyce ].

Yes. This is [ Joyce ] again. And see, for last year, you've been giving us the occupancy levels for PAC and Duqm separately, but this year, I'm not seeing the PAC numbers anymore. Can you give us some overview of what's happening in the PAC? And also on the PAC-to-PAC conversion which is happening right now. So what I understand is PDO is giving the existing PAC or their managed PAC to the existing contractors, the 3 contractors, and what's the kind of expansion are we looking at? And what's the number of bricks that will be added? How long will it take? And what's the revenue profile that we are looking at? If you can give us some details on that, that would be much appreciated.

Sure. Sure. So let's start with your question on occupancy. So occupancy last year averaged 90%. Occupancy for the first two months of this year is 87%. Now don't get alarmed because it is a hiatus, a transition of contractor at Garn Alam, that has turned that down and not these percentage points of them. That is being replenished as we speak. So we'll see those numbers coming back up north of 90%. Now the -- you are able to speak of what I've been talking critically about because we still have to sort of sign on the dotted line, but you're clearly very well informed. And so assuming that you are correct, that PDO is getting all the PACs, what we know for certain already, the decision has been taken post the Manazil tender that we were participating in, that the PACs, the permanent buildings, are going to be part of PDO's accommodation solution at least until 2044. This is great news for all of us. So because we are, by far, the largest PAC operator. We've always won 100% of the maximum amount you're allowed to win when tenders get shared. And so we've got our 5 permanent PACs set. Those PACs accommodate 7,500. The first thing that we're going to see is PDOs starting to shut down in areas where there are PACs, where they have allowed PACs temporary accommodation for contractors. They want the PAC operators to put in more robust PDO spec temporary accommodation that will be there for the next 5 years as the rest of the Manazil project is then thought through and brought back to market. That will mean for us an additional 2,000 beds. Now the difference being those are existing beds, so that 87%, call it 90% to simplicity, of the 7,500, we'll fill. After that, we have 2,000 new beds coming in, which will also fill. We are predicting around 95%. Could be more than that, won't be less than that. And so that's the nature. You're asking about the timing of it. Now there are issues, I don't want to go into too much detail of individual areas. There are sort of issues with connectivity, water supply, energy supply and so on, that makes some of the sites take a little longer, but we are expecting to have some of this operational within 2 to 3 months of the final sign off, which is 2 to 3 days away. And you'll see that. We'll announce as soon as that's allowed -- allowing time for getting the announcement approved as well. We need a couple of days for that. But -- so this is really good news it's happening now. The client is absolutely clear that they want everyone to live in PACs or adjacent to the PACs and this expansion accommodation. Why? Because the PACs then offer the full suite of solutions around medical, recreational, lifestyle, worker welfare, mental health issues, safety issues, productivity issue. The PACs are proven for this. And they've lost patience now with people keeping their workforce in less than that. Thank you.

So what's the kind of investment that we are looking at? And will it be -- can this be recouped with profit within a 5 years' time that is allowed for us?

Yes. So the total spend is about AED 19.8 million. Correct?

Yes. So the CapEx for the expansion will be in the range of AED 8 million. The payback is expected to be -- those are things we actually don't disclose due to client confidentiality, but AED 8 million is the CapEx that will go into this particular expansion.

Yes. So sorry, not 19 -- I think it was AED 1.98 million we're spending on upgrading the existing PACs as well.

Yes.

Excuse me. The -- which will drive down cost, a lot of sustainability issues going in that. We can -- we don't want to say things in terms of client confidentiality and profitability. But this will all be taken care of, that everything that we need to deal with through this contract period will happen in the contract period.

Just to add, [ Joyce ], that, I know we keep talking about client confidentiality, but to give you some confidence, we are robustly profitable across all our segments.

Just a clarification. I missed that part, which you mentioned about the CapEx budget that we have. Was it AED 8 million or AED 18 million? I didn't hear well.

Yes, AED 8 million.

AED 8 million for the expansion. AED 1.98 million for the upgrade.

Okay. So total AED 10 million we are expecting, and that will be spread over this year? Or will it extend to next year as well?

The expenditure will be this year.

Okay. Got it.

And on some of it, on some of the upgrade issues, this is because we now know that we will be there 'til 2024, we're able to now invest in different air conditioning, different LED lighting, et cetera, whole range of our solar project and so on, all of which will drive down costs and some of the recovery on that is less than 5 years. 3 years, 2 years and so on.

Understood. Understood. Very clear. The next question is that I have is can you give us your revenue breakup by segment? Probably let's look at it from Duqm to PAC to the contract services that we have?

I think I answered that differently, [ Joyce ]. Due to client confidentiality and other sensitivity related to the market, we are not allowed to disclose that particular segmental information. However, to give you comfort, I said that we are profitable across each and every segment including Duqm.

I understand that, Raashid. But I was looking at the revenue side, how much is contributed from different sides. It used to -- we used to get that information. But if it is, of course, something away from my purview, it's okay, I perfectly appreciate that. You've shared a lot of information here.

Any further questions? Anyone? No? There's a Q&A there. [ Joyce ]?

At the…

Sorry. Sorry, [ Joyce ]. We lost you there.

The Qatar operations, we have a tie-up with a holding, that is what I understand. So what's happening there? Is there any further advancement other than the event which we had last year? Are we participating in any of the contracts? Or what's the projection for Qatar going forward?

So we -- as I mentioned earlier, [ Joyce ], we are actively bidding in Qatar for new opportunities. We've established our operation capability there. So we've established reputational capability there. So that is now generating much more interest as we participate in tender opportunities as they come up because we're better known in terms of capability on the ground. So we are hopeful that those tendering efforts will deal with us some contract wins that we'll be able to report.

Fine. Perfect. Thank you, gentlemen. Thank you for the answers and the outlook. Wish you all the best.

Thanks, [ Joyce ]. Anyone else? Any further questions? Right, I'll call it.

It looks as if that is sort of bringing us to the end. Thank you all for your interest. I think the opportunities that some of those last questions asking about in terms of geographical in Qatar and Saudi are real. And we've got the base in Qatar. We've got to quickly get the base sorted in Saudi. And so we'll be really competing seriously in those markets for the opportunities that we've described. We've got some great opportunities close to home. The cyclical tendering of the waste collection contracts in be'ah are coming out again. If we say at the moment, we collect 474,000 tonnes of municipal solid waste, if we were successful in some of the opportunities we're looking at, this could be 1,400 tonnes, not 474,000 tonnes. So there's real opportunity there. In the utility side, we've been rolling out our smart lead program having been successful last year. That is now coming as an opportunity on a massive scale countrywide. So we're using our technical skill relationship and training relationship with Tata Power to deliver. We own the operation 100% and so competing there as well. So we believe there's some real opportunity on the horizon. We're ramping up our hard FM side, so that we become larger and more competitive there. We've always discussed before this large share we have of the soft services, the large share we have of the accommodation solution. We really need to move forward now and increase our shares in the waste management opportunity side, in the utility side and in hard FM side as well as the geographies we've talked about. So a lot of work going on, on that basis as well, and we hope to bring you news of our progress in all those areas as we meet each quarter. Still no hands up, so we will draw it to a close. As always, thank you very much for your interest in us and your participation in these quarterly sessions. We always enjoy them, spending this time with you, and we look forward to doing so again after the first quarter results come out. Thank you very much.

Thank you, everyone.