Restore plc (RST) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Great. Good morning, everybody, and welcome to Restore's half year results. Dan and I will give our presentations. And then we'll have questions from the room and then some questions online. So looking at the highlights of just to say -- well, you'll see the last point. Somebody has pointed out to me, this is probably my last analyst presentation, but I did say that over 7 years ago. And so I'm not taking -- I'm assuming, and I'm very glad that this will be my last presentation given the strength of the management team across the group. So we're very -- I think we're very pleased with these results. It's everything that the business is about recurring revenues, strong cash Clearly, the box business as part of the information management continues to be quite obese in terms of profitability and cash flow. And also, we look at Datashred as really fitting into quite a similar model where despite the movements in the paper price, actually, it is a very, very stable business. And working on this bedrock, that gives us the flexibility to look at other things, both in terms of bolt-on acquisitions, but also value accretive acquisitions, which we've done and looking at how we can achieve significant capital returns. So if we think about it in terms of an information management with the box business with Datashred, we've got very strong businesses and that's enabled us and what I think we're very pleased with in these results is that in the digital services space, the outbound communications space, which is our Synertec business and also in a very strongly performing technology business. We've actually got some real organic growth coming through alongside the growth, which we've been seeing from acquisitions. So we feel really well set up. It's been quite a major project on the property consolidation, which has cost is smaller than slightly more than we were expecting. On the other hand, it's made sure we remain incredibly competitive in that -- in the box business. And that's been I think I tend to forget about it is going on in the background. But actually, if you look at Dan will take us through the scale of what's been happening and moving 4.5 million carbadox, sort of our people do it, and it's just been going on, but it's quite a sort of stressy major project. And it's been nice that that's a sort of thing which 2 or 3 years ago, we said -- we have to do this. We've got on with it. We've done it, and we're seeing the benefits of it. Clearly, in particular, the particular benefit is while rents and rates have been going up. It's enabled us to keep our costs pretty flat -- and then so far this year, we've had some bolt-on acquisitions, 3 of those in Datashred continuing the consolidation of that market. And I think quite excitingly beginning to the Synertec brand, which is becoming Restore outbound communications that doing a bolt-on there suggests we can really move that one forward. The share buyback program is underway. I think we spent GBP 4.6 million in the first half. And I think things are in really good shape, all the divisions are pretty much where we want them to be and look very comfortable with the full year market expectations. It's also -- the other point is that I came back just sort of about 3 years ago. It's been a really fun time being really enjoyable that we've achieved everything that I wanted to achieve, really comfortable with the senior management team and the management across all of the businesses. And it feels now that we're going to enter a new phase. And so it's a time that we had a sort of changing of the guard. And I'm delighted that although slightly unconventional the Board has asked me to become Nonexecutive Chair making room for Dan, who he and I have worked very closely together over the last 3 years. He's got excellent support in our divisional MDs Nigel -- does is a force in our business naturally and Ian are very strong. So I feel we've got a really good team. Dan will do a brilliant job. Jamie has held the reins as Chairman for the last 3 years and he will remain on the Board. He's extremely valuable, particularly for his property knowledge. So I feel that we've sort of rejigged things, and it's a really exciting time for the business to be in really good shape, looking at growth, looking at the next phase as to where we go. So very exciting around that. And I think most of you know, no down. And he, in conjunction with our divisional MDs it will be a really powerful force and it's an exciting time to be involved in this business. And I'm sure that we will be recruiting a very strong CFO to replace down. So I was talking about growth. So the areas where we're really -- the -- our digital services business, so that used to be called Restore Digital, it's been completely changed. Overhead completely different. We're now winning decent contracts in our bulk scanning, we've got some of -- we had some very, very difficult contracts in there, which we've steadily been. We had big loss-making contracts, which we weren't on top of. We're in a really, really good space here. Now a lot of big contracts, the DWP, HML, the HMRC Corporate Protection, these aren't easy contracts. And I think if I look around the market and think who else could be doing these, it's a bit like the exam contract. I can't really see anybody out there who is -- who has the scale or the capability that we've got. And we're now really well set up for that, whereas if I look at where we were 2 or 3 years ago after we bought EDM, failed to integrate it, costs all over the place, rubbish relationships, particularly with some of our big public sector that has all changed. And although we haven't really seen the digital activity delivering on the scale that I'd like to see it. We're pretty well poised in a really good place. Clearly, we're benefiting from the fact that last year, we only had a few months of the DWP contract. So the DWP contract is a scale and generates a lot of organic growth. But also, I think where we're sitting in this digital space has a lot of talk about access to people -- the sort of concept of a lot of stuff being scanned is very much out there, and we feel that we're the go-to in this space, which could be very exciting. We're not quite sure exactly how it's going to develop, but we're definitely in the right place at the right time with a really good offering. Again, we've been very pleased with the Synertec acquisition managed which was put together by Dan and he and Nigel have been managing -- they have been letting the - it's a very good business. We're letting it go its some way. But actually, probably now, we're beginning to say let's go in a certain direction here. We want to see growth. We want to see the opportunities taking full advantage of clearly, that the Synertec business is very land on the NHS. We still see a lot of huge opportunity there and also in related areas. And as I said, we're pleased to have made this recent acquisition last week and then the other area of growth is the technology business. So that's the sort of IT asset life cycle management, where we've built these strong relationships with -- this is really satisfactory. It was a bit of a -- it was a basket case 2 or 3 years ago. And now we've got a business making double-digit margins, high growth. As I say, the market is helpful. We've all seen people like computer centers results. But it's really about what we've achieved in that business in organizing it, and we feel really comfortable about the next phase of that business. Now it's making really good money. Well, it's making decent money. We think that can go a lot further. And it's interesting that much as we love the box business, and we also love the shredding business. I think we'll see that as the other businesses grow, they'll be much more in kilter than they have been historically in terms of our sort of cash cows versus our growth areas. And then I'll just touch on the sort of acquisitions we've made. We've information management, a couple of box businesses acquired digital services, we bought NEC software, which has been a decent acquisition. I think we prefer looking at physical and outbound communications, obviously, Synertec has been a really good deal. MPS will be encouraging and the consolidation within the data shred within the trading business, which is as predicted. And it's been helpful that we've done those. And Dan will touch on the impact of the paper price, which we've hedged, but it's been good that the additional acquisitions we've done there have covered off the short -- the significant shortfall related to the fall in the paper price, which we'd hedged, which defends -- which gives us -- means we know how much money we're going to make. But when you're hedging at GBP 30 a tonne lower than you were the previous year, and you're doing 60,000 tonnes, there is an impact, but that's been offset by the acquisitions. But so let me hand over to the man who will be CEO at the end of the year, Dan.

Thank you, Charles. That was all on script. Right. So another good set of results, really pleased with the numbers, as Charles said. So really, really, really positive that revenue is growing and growing, thanks to both organic growth and from acquisitions, so up 21%. Profit following. And it's also really pleasing that the margin is following as well because if you remember, we did have a margin target of hitting 20%, we said medium term, a bit earlier than we thought we might do to last year, and we've held that now and in fact up a little bit. PBT and EPS all tracking as well, which is really, really pleasing. -- good cash flow. We've talked a lot about cash flow before the business does just throw cash off Kamran or shine. So that continues. Cash flow -- free cash flow of just over GBP 21 million and cash conversion of 95%. So very pleasing. And despite us doing our share buyback and doing some bolt-ons leverage has dropped a little bit to 1.7x. So that's all really, really pleasing. And then just countering through the divisions. So just a reminder, information management has 3 businesses in it. It's got the boxes business, which we're now calling physical. It's got the digital services, so scanning and it's got outbound communications, otherwise on a Synertec, which we're rebranding as Charles touched on. Property consolidation, we're now entering the last leg. And there's a slide or 2 on that later on, which I'll talk to in a bit more detail. And we completed 2 weeks ago, I think, a first acquisition in outbound communications. We did trail this a little bit, so hopefully not surprised. We're excited by this because we think there could be a really good market opportunity for more of these, it's similar in concept to the Datashred acquisitions where you're effectively buying the customer book. but able to reduce the costs through running on our facilities. The extra thing about this could be that we can sell in additional services because there are lots of printing companies out there and they don't have the system that we have, Prism, which can manage the migration from physical to digital. So that's really exciting. I'm pleased we got that one done. And in Datashred, lower paper prices Charles touched on, and I'll cover it a bit later, but really well-run business. team are doing a fantastic job. Lawrence in the room is standing in his FD at the moment from my team. She's enjoying it, I think. So yes, the team is doing really well. But we've talked about industry-leading KPIs before, so collections per vehicle per day. It's 12th, which is we think is good, and we've got a pretty good view on the market given we're buying lots of companies in that space. So they're doing really well. And in technology, absolutely fantastic first half. We talked about revenue growth previously and moving towards double-digit margins, while they've hit double-digit margins and really, really good revenue growth. So pleased about that. There are some market tailwinds, no doubt. So chip prices are high, which means the secondary market is good for us. We're continuing to see people using -- and obviously, we've spent quite a long time to try and get that business in better shape. It was loss making when Charles came back and I joined. So really pleased with technology. So this is a slide that you're hopefully familiar with now, just walking through how the profit before tax has moved and this is half on half, so last half versus this half. So getting from GBP 18 million to GBP 22.3 million, first box, the biggest 1 on there is growth in Information Management. Now a chunk of that is pricing in boxes. We've talked about this before. So we've index-linked to almost all the storage to RPI or CPI. So that just comes through first of January for the commercial customers and they've started a tax year for the public sector customers. So that's doing well. We've got good growth in digitization helped by the annualization of the DWP contract, and we've got growth in outbound communication. So Synertec that's really pleasing. Acquisitions, the next bar, that's essentially Synertec -- so that's the year-on-year acquisition impact on the growth. And then we've got cost inflation. A chunk of this is people costs. People obviously have very different cost for us. Another chunk is property and net property, we are saving, but we've obviously got business rates coming against us and some rent increases. Then on Datashred, talked about the paper price, and I'll cover that in a bit more detail. But effectively, the paper price has offset the benefit from the acquisition. So broadly the same profit. And then technology, doing really well and head office interest, broadly flat. So then we're walking through division by division, starting with Information Management, the biggest one so stable number of boxes, 22 million boxes last year and at the end of the year and now, and that's just inflation-linked pricing coming through. Digital business. We've obviously done quite a lot of work there over the last couple of years, taking out a lot of cost. It's benefiting from that. We're starting to win decent-sized contracts. One of them in the year was the MOD scanning. And the interesting thing about that business is we've got so many boxes and people are increasingly looking to digitize them. So just having the boxes in our estate places as well for if the customer wants them digitizing. And then Synertec or out bank Communications doing well, Notify the NHS body is providing some revenue there, and there's lots of opportunity still to go for. And we hope that the small acquisition we did brings us into -- that has 16 councils. So it does annual council billings and sort of been collection, garden bins that sort of thing. But that's a nice sticky revenue and gets us into an adjacent market. Then just a couple of slides just on the property consolidation, and that's because it's coming to an end, and I'm conscious we've been talking about it since I joined, so I thought we'd just cover through what's happened. So we're in the final phase. It's the second biggest cost after people. We filled Mark and veil, now some of you in the room have been to Mark and Veil. So that's just over 100,000 for about 1 million boxes up beyond 1 near Sheffield. And we have pretty much filled up the second big warehouse, which is up near Durham. Last year, or maybe at the beginning of this year, we entered into new leases for Strad and Rainham. The Rainham is around the corner from our large site in Rainham. And that means we've now got a plan to complete the program. cost story each box. So that's a really key metric for us, has fallen despite the increase in business rates. So I'm really, really glad we started this. And the last bullet, this will be the end of the program when we when we finish things that we know about. But as and when smaller properties come up at the end of the lease, we'll obviously keep looking at opportunities to improve the property portfolio. And just on a page. I'm sorry, it's quite a lot of detail, but as Charles alluded to, a lot has happened. I just wanted to set out kind of what we've done over time. So you can see it's a little bit over 4 million is how many have been moved each year. The 2026 and 2027, that's a bit of an estimate, but broadly, that would be about right. And then we've got which properties we've come out of Mark and Veil from the Southeast exits in '24, that was largely there. And then second lot in 2025, that's largely going into Durham. Then you can see the costs, so just under GBP 12 million, and we think it will end up being and the annualized savings, GBP 6 million. So about a 2-year payback. I think we said at the beginning it will be 18 months. So it has maybe taking a bit longer and cost us a bit more, but a 2-year payback, we're still really, really pleased with that and really pleased and grateful for the team for doing all of that work. And in Datashred, so as I said, well run business, but they have had a tough time in the paper. The paper is about GBP 40 less this half versus last half. So GBP 40 less on 30,000 tonnes, that's a GBP 1.2 million headwind. Now if you look at what the market prices are, our average is about GBP 140 for the first half. The market averages between GBP 100 and GBP 130. So we're doing better than the market, and that is largely thanks to both the quality of our payback and the hedging. So very glad we did the hedging, and we anticipate that will get better during the second half of the year. And we've had lots of acquisitions in that space, 3 so far this year. So that's offset the paper, so broadly flat profits. And -- it's had a tough half, but even in a tough half, it's had double-digit operating margin. So that shows how resilient now how dependable that business is. Then technology, as I said, really pleased. I hope Ian isn't listening to this too much. Otherwise, you'll be asking for a bonus, but doing really well. The business is exactly where we want it to be. More growth to do, but double-digit this half margin into double digits, and that should continue for the rest of the year. So really pleased with that. And that was loss-making not that long ago. So I've done a fantastic job that team. And then adjusting items, again, a familiar slide, it's the usual suspects in here. Just a couple of things to point out. We've obviously got amortization coming through, which is a little bit bigger as a result of the acquisitions we've done. The Synertec earn-out still frustrates me as an accountant the way this is accounted for, but that comes through as a charge each year, it's classified as remuneration. And then we've got the property costs coming through, as I just covered. And in cash, really strong business throws off cash, no matter what. So again, despite the acquisitions, despite the buyback deleveraged and we spent -- I think we said we'd spend about GBP 5 million a quarter, and this buyback started in -- towards the end of March. So we're tracking there or thereabouts, it might well drag on to possibly March, April next year, but that's broadly going as planned. And we've got lots of headroom in the facilities, and we've got some of our friends from the banks in the room, although I'm sure they'll be pleased about the acquisitions we've been doing. And then my last slide familiar to this hasn't changed, but I wanted to put it up because it takes how we allocate our capital. So I think it's important. We're grounded by this. First off, we'll invest for growth, and that's either in our business or value-accretive acquisitions. And all the acquisitions that we've done are accretive from day one. We obviously try to kind of make them even more accretive, but they're all accretive from day one. And then second priority will deliver shareholder returns. Keep going on the dividend with consistent cover and then the buyback with surplus capital. And then maintain underpinning all of that, maintain the strong balance sheet with a target range of leverage net debt to EBITDA of 1.5x to 2x. So that's my last slide. But before I pass to Charles, I will just digress a second, it was me that said to Charles who's going to be his last presentation. And he said, I asked him if he might be emotional about it. And I won't do my impression because I might go a huge grant. But he said, "No, no, no. I've done 20 of these. achon 26 Charles, this is your 26th, if I got my math right, which I hope -- so on behalf of me, the advisers in the room, shareholders listening, and I would like to thank you very much for all your contributions to Restore.

Thanks, Dan. Hey, unnecessary. But it's been a lot of -- we've been a lot of fun the last 3 years, and it's -- I think -- our sort of job is to sort of in this context is to tell everybody what we're going to do, do it and then tell them we've done it. And I think that's been achieved. So that's really good. Now it's Dan's job to tell us what he and the team are going to do, do it and tell us he's done it. So all good. So this is really just a pretty quick summary. So as a business, we really like -- we're very keen on operating margins. All of our people think of in terms of how we're going to drive the operating margin. I think that's a really key thing. And working with operating margins of 20% makes everything an awful lot easier, particularly as one can grow the business. And although it will be difficult to maintain it up there because the mix will be growing lower-margin activities that will very much be a key driver of our business. As mentioned, the information in the -- what was a records management division, that's just -- it's had its day in terms of growth, but that's just a wonderful bedrock from which to spring everything else in so many different ways. It's not just the cash flow. It's actually having the box that's being plugged into the information management market. We see increasingly the boundaries blurring between those sort of boxes and the digital, et cetera. It's just such a good base from which to work and the customer list is pretty extraordinary and the opportunity to leverage it is wonderful. We're excited about the growth areas and Datashred, I've never -- nobody has ever seen the paper price as low as it is. So the idea that we can continue to make double-digit margins in this environment is testimony to the team there. And then -- so the sort of slogan for this year has been -- it's about growth and it's also about the opportunity, which is available to us. The -- we're very comfortable with how our businesses are being managed. We think they're a really good platform for moving things forward. And it's a useful time to be generating cash debt coming down. We think that there will be opportunities over the next year or 2, and we're really well placed both in terms of balance sheet, but just operationally to grab these things, which are all the key metrics of where we wanted to be strong financial operational performance. Operating margins, if we can -- it won't be -- we're not expecting the operating margins overall to go much further up just because of the mix of where we see growth. But we've -- it will always remain a sort of key driver of this business to ensure that operating margins are there. Once you've got those in place, then doing more -- it's about doing more business and pushing more through a successful model. This is -- and so yes, so recurring revenues, strong operating margins, predictable cash generation. This is -- we hope that we've got a really good platform here moving to go forward. And yes, it's all about shareholder value. We're conscious of we need to drive the share price. We've got to create more shareholder value. But we do think we're in the right place to be able to do that. And on the back of that, we're very comfortable with where we are in terms of market expectations for the full year. And that's been pretty rapid growth in EPS over the last 3 years, and we can see more of that happening in the current year. Brilliant. So that's that, and we'll take appendices. We don't really want that, do we. Very good. So thanks, everybody.

And questions. Tom, let's start at the front.

Tom Callan from Investec. I've got 2. So just on that shed performance. I just wondered, is there anything structural here that we need to think about that's impacting the space? And if so, what could that potentially mean for multiples and pricing of further bolt-ons moving forward? And then just within technology, I just wondered if you could expand further on what you believe your current market share is within the VAR space, specifically in therefore, what that looks, means in terms of future opportunities for growth, inorganic or organic.

Dan can pick up the technology point. I think we're seeing it's marginally depressing given the rating of our shares, which obviously impacts on what we can afford to pay for acquisitions. Having said that, there is a lot of realism out there in terms of pricing expectations, not just in the trading space. There are a lot of half decent businesses who are sort of going, "Do I really want to compete with the likes of Restore?" So I think -- yes, I wish we had a sort of bigger bag of money. We've been selective in terms of what we've done. But I think there is there is realism in the fact that U.K. vendors are pretty realistic about their opportunities and their valuations now, which should make for a very interesting market in terms of bolt-ons over the next few years. And as I said, it would be nice to think that our multiple would go up, which would make those deals more earnings enhancing. And we like -- clearly, how we've built the business how historically, we built the business was on the back of issuing shares to move things forward and clearly issuing shares at the moment is we're buying them in rather than putting them out is where we are.

And on the technology question, Tom, so the VARs, value-added retailers. We've done some mapping in this space and our largest customer -- but we know that CDW is by far and away the largest global VAR. So it's not surprising that that's our largest customer. In terms of market share, we're pretty confident we are #1 in the U.K. it's a nascent market though. So there's a surprise in the long tail of small operators. What we can be confident of is that people are continuing to outsource to VARs and that we are in the mix with the tenders, both with CDW and the other VARs. So it's -- there certainly has been and continues to be a market shift towards moving away from in-house and your IT function to using VAR.

Great -- sorry, Yes, Sorry, Chris.

Samuel from Stifel. Two questions from me, please. Firstly, on M&A with the acquisition of MPS in the outbound communications space. Can you give us a sense of how fragmented that market is? And are there other opportunities to add sort of customer sets through there, that would be interesting? And then secondly, a very good organic growth in the first half. Could you give a sense of what organic growth of this business Restore could do over the medium term, what sort of a sensible level.

Dan I think there's a base for you.

Okay. Thank you, Sam. So on NPS. So MPS is a business. It's based in Bristol. It's got -- customers are effectively 16 local authorities, is this 400, 500 local authorities across the U.K. We asked Tom that the end of the outbound communications business about a year ago, said to him relatively into acquiring them. We're interested in M&A in this space. can you get some potential targets? And he gave us quite a long list quite quickly. So we know there's a lot of operators out there. They tend to be localized. So the customers that this company has are all relatively close by geographically. We've taken this one as a trial because we wanted to make sure we can do it, but there are lots and lots of other operators out there that have got very similar customer base. So the opportunity for future bolt-ons, we think could be quite large. In terms of organic growth, so this half or just over 10% organic growth. So half the group growth was organic. It's flattered by -- a little bit by the DWP annualization of that contract. But even if you strip that out, you've obviously got the bedrock that is the boxes coming through inflation. And on top of that, you've got additional growth from technology and outbound communications and scanning. So mid- to high digit -- single digits is a longer-term possibility.

Chris Bamberry Plc. I've got 3 questions. as a very strong performance in terms of profit from technology, improving gross margin, maintaining overheads where they were before flat. How should we think about both the gross margin and the overhead going forward in that business? Secondly, once the property consolidation program is complete, are there any other further actions you can take to help to deliver efficiencies to partially offset inflation. And finally, you got a healthy M&A pipeline. Can you just give us a bit more flavor on the debt of pricing, the competition, what you think you might spend this year? And has there been anything you've looked at need walking away from?

Why don't I take the profit in technology, including the gross margin. Dan, are you happy to do the property consolidation and the M&A pipeline Yes, that's -- we've clearly benefited in technology from the increase in the value of the equipment, which we're selling. So that's -- so when we talk about it's a very curious business to look at to try and find the gross margin. And in fact, Ian, who runs it, sets me the pass-through that you're doing on the -- pass-through in the return to the postal charges, why don't you do that for us? Because you should really be judging us on the margin we make on the kit, which we resell anyway, you didn't get very far with that one, but he's still not as a both -- so how you look at the gross margin in that business is difficult. What we've done a lot of work on is on the pricing model and what we've bought has been remarkable, is that we -- I think we might be the only people in the industry who know how much money we make on individual on the slugs of -- we've got hundred of these, how much money did we make on it. And we've done a lot of work on working that out. And one of the upsides from that has been to go to certain customers and saying, we've been doing this for you for a very long time. We're now putting up our rates. And the price elasticity in that market is very, very high. Pricing is very opaque. If I said to you, if you give me 500 laptops what -- who pays who, all those sort of questions, you wouldn't really have a clear and it hasn't been a market which, the IT hardware industry has been very slow at really understanding what the recycling stuff is worth. We think there might be a shift. We think that there may be a shift in people's behaviors rather than in the old days, it breaks you replace it, then you move to -- it's going to break, so I'll replace it. And now we're probably getting more diagnostic tools in this industry where people will be saying let's -- which I think is -- that's how engineering has always worked. You get to the point where people go how much life is left in this and et cetera. But I think we're really ahead of the curve on this. But we've been incredibly successful in saying to our customers, no sorry, that doesn't work mate, we're going to charge you to collect the stuff. We're going to charge you to process it. That's the deal, do gone right now. So that's been a real driver of where this is, coupled with the fact that generally, the SLAs in this industry haven't really been met. People will say, right, I'm giving you my kit and it's got to be off your floor within a month. It's got to be fully repaired and out and actually just wasn't happening. I know it wasn't happening with -- for us, and I'm pretty sure what something to anybody else. Whereas I think now we've set up our product production, et cetera, in such a way that when somebody says, we want this off the floor in a month or whatever. We're doing all of that. So I think we're in a really good space. I'm not -- so that's where the margin is going to come through, and that will be driven and just understanding that we don't get out of bed for gross margins of less than 45%. And if people were on 15%, given the choice, you know us, you know it's all sorted. Sorry, that's what it's going to be. So that's been really helpful. So whilst there's clearly a following wind in terms of what we're selling tectorquite often, we share that with the customer, but it's higher. Really, I think the real driver is being really good at what we do and understanding where we're making our money and not being afraid to say to the customer, sorry, we were Moxa few years ago, we're not anymore. That's what it is and people sort of gone fine. Sorry, Dan, has that given you enough time to...

Absolutely. So on the property, Chris, so -- and there's still about maybe just under 1 million boxes to move of the program that we've got. -- in that business, we try to match people cost to the cost of servicing the clients. So you've got storage revenue and service revenue and people broadly match into service revenue. We'll still be if a lease comes up, we'll still look to do something about it. But once we've done that property consolidation, that's the big bang stuff done. And then hopefully, structurally, we've got that business in such a position that you've got revenues that are inflation-linked costs matched to your service, your people cost much to your service and then property also tends to be inflation linked, obviously proportionately lower, so we should protect the margins in that way. And then in terms of the third question on M&A pricing and have we walked away. I wouldn't say we'd walked away, but we are on hold with some people, and that's because we're very rigid about the returns that we have to have -- we have done some post-acquisition reviews a lot percent things we've done, and I'm happy to say that they all meet our return criteria. But where the sellers' expectations and our expectations differ them, we're just on hold. We've obviously done quite a lot, but we won't -- we determined not to overpay. So sometimes it might be a bit of a waiting game. And that's true certainly in the boxes business and in trading outbound communications were still on a bit of a discovery, but kind of I'm happy with the MPS structure. So let's see how that goes.