Revenio Group Oyj (REG1V) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Good afternoon from snowy Finland, and welcome to Revenio Q4 and Full Year 2025 Earnings Call. My name is Jouni Tojlla. I'm the Group CEO for Revenio. And then with me, as always, we have Robin Pulkkinen here as a CFO. Plan for today is to go through the business highlights for Q4 2025 and then a couple of highlights also from the whole 2025. And then we are going to go through a recap regarding to the 3-year strategy period, focusing on the strategy execution during '25. And then Robin is going to take over and go through the financials for the Q4 2025 and then the whole year 2025. And then we'll finish up with the guidance for '26 and of course, the Q&A at the end. Q4 net sales grew to EUR 31.2 million. So reported growth, 2.2% currency adjusted growth, 8.6%. And if you think and go back for the Q4 from the region perspective, so Q4, U.S. sales grew strongly, and we received the all-time sales record in the U.S.A. during the December. Also strong growth in Europe, Middle East, Africa region. And if we look for the APAC, so a bit more similar trend during the Q4 for APAC as we had for Q3. So the sales was down year-on-year. But on the positive note, now the tide bit turned and APAC started to perform a bit more better during the Q4 compared to the Q3. On the profit side, quite a lot of down. I think it's good to understand a couple of things regarding to the EBIT development and comparing to the last year. So we had a couple of bigger buckets here, which had an impact to the EBIT performance for the Q4. So the first one was related to the delayed price increases. That cost on the bottom line about EUR 0.5 million, 2% on the GM level. Then we had roughly EUR 0.5 million nonrecurring costs and then a bit more increased costs on the FDA side. And then if you go back to the 2024 Q4, so we had roughly currency tailwind about EUR 860,000, which then passed through also to the bottom line. But Robin is going to cover this one in more detail. But I think this is -- these things are just good to keep in mind. Cash flow, extremely strong. So a bit shy on the EUR 16 million compared to the EUR 10 million on the comparable quarter. For full year, more or less in the middle of the guidance. So currency adjusted net sales growth, 9.1%, totaling to the EUR 109.7 million. Profitability in good level. And then perhaps a highlight from the 2025 links also to the cash flow. So strong cash flow, ending up to roughly EUR 30 million from the EUR 23 million. And perhaps this is the right time to say a big thanks for all our customers. So they have been trusting us during the 2025. And then, of course, for all our partners and especially for the team. So I think the year 2025 was a good year for us in this turbulent market environment. Then a bit doing the recap to the strategy and main drivers, which have been driving our growth for quite many years, and we don't see that tide changing at all. So even though that we have had turbulence in geopolitical environment also on the economical side, so the mega trends have been and they are going to support our growth also in the long run. So people are aging. There's more lifestyle-related diseases. So really the need for care is growing globally as we are going to have more and more patients every day. And then if we compare to the amount of the available resources, so the gap is going to be widening. And where we have been seeing this one, especially during 2025 is the pickup on our retina screening solution in general. So these trends have been driving our growth, and they are going to be there for sure for years to come. When we entered to the strategy period, -- we laid out 4 cornerstones. So the first one related to devices, which is here improve the quality of clinical diagnostics with targeted product innovations. Then we had the solution side as a second, then sales and operations and then the people part. So during 2025, we have been able to get the new products out in the market. First example is the MAIA microperimeter. Then also on the solution side, the data management solution, FDA cleared in the U.S.A. was launched during 2025 and now in first client installations. Then on the solutions side, we have been really successful on rolling out the screening solution. It has been driving already during the 2025, our hardware sales, especially on the new segments where we haven't been before. And a good example is -- and I think this is the first numbers what we are giving out. So even in the short period, we have now even now live sites more than 350 up and running and in this stage, even more. And also the reporting or report volumes, so we have been doubling them during the 2025. On the sales side, I think a good year for the sales. So all product categories grew. during 2025 in all regions, even in the APAC, if we take into account the strong Q1, which we had in APAC. And then, of course, ending up to all-time sales record during the December in the U.S.A. From the operations side, we were really well prepared to take the stock levels up because of the tariffs, so full on the money on that one. And then we have been able to increase also quality -- product quality across all product categories. On the people side, we have been putting a lot of effort regarding to the leadership team development -- sorry, leadership development in general. And then also, we laid out the new product operating model during the second half 2025. And I think these all have been contributing our ability to maintain profitable growth during 2025. So if looking at the priorities for the remaining part of 2026. So top 3 items here is, of course, to focus on the sales and marketing side. So we are going to put even more focus on that one in order to guarantee the sales growth also during 2026. Then we have been constantly investing to the R&D. So in our mind, we have a really compelling product portfolio also in the future on the tonometry side, also on fundus imaging and perimetry side and software solutions side. So the key is to focus on those areas and get the products -- new products out on time. And of course, the topic what we have been discussing in quite many earnings calls, and there always have been quite many questions around the M&A. So that's going to be high on our agenda also in the coming quarters. But I think, Robin, before giving speech to you, so we are starting a new strategy period early 2027. So we are planning to have a Capital Markets Day during the fall '26. So keep eye on the more detailed dates. So we'll come back to this one. Over to you, Robin.

Thank you, Jouni. So let me run through the numbers a bit. So like I mentioned, we already covered the sales, 8.6% in the last quarter growth, FX adjusted and 9.1% for the whole year. Basically, the sales didn't include any of those larger deals we're discussing at the end of Q3. None of those are gone or have been lost. So they're all still in the works and kind of looking quite promising going into this year for the company and from the sales point of view. The margin has been a surprise for the market clearly. The price increases were not fully implemented in the U.S. during the last quarter. You can see it clearly visible here. So we kind of run out of the tariff-free inventory at the end of Q3. And the impact is here when you see that the price increases are not in, it really had an impact on the gross margin. Like we discussed earlier, though, we are increasing the prices to cover for the cost of the tariff. But basically, for example, if you add EUR 1,000 million in cost of goods sold as tariff and you add EUR 1,000 million of revenue, it will have a lowering impact on the percentage, but the kind of euros should be covered by the increases. So if you have the tariffs running through, it will have a lowering impact on the gross margin, but it shouldn't be this low. So we're working on getting all those fixed now in early this year. And then looking at the ASP reports, we're seeing now signals that -- or signs that the prices are going up in the U.S., and this will be hopefully fixed in the coming months. Basically, I don't think the price increases will maybe get us closer to 70%, but that's probably more realistic level for the coming quarters as long as the tariffs are at the level where they are today. I'll get back to the profitability a bit more later. Basically, our earnings per share is slightly down for the year from last year. Net gearing, minus 13.3%. So kind of in a very balance sheet in a very healthy situation. So I'll also have more slides on those to come. So the sales. So basically, some people have been wondering why the FX impact was so big and Jouni also mentioned that slightly there earlier. But the comparison period, we still -- some of you or hopefully remember that end of Q --'24, we made some adjustments to the balance sheet where we reallocated or restructured some of the foreign currency balances into different parts of the balance sheet to kind of avoid having a direct impact on the -- or kind of revaluations hit to our top line. Last Q4 '24 was the last quarter we still had those. And in that quarter, there was EUR 860,000 of kind of FX adjustment to the top line from the balance sheet items, which basically flows through the whole P&L. So the comparison number, if we take those out, we take it out from the top line for our reporting currency adjusted growth, but actually the same EUR 860 million also has a full role in the EBIT line. So mentioned no larger deals. So it's really business as usual for the quarter. We were kind of -- we left the guidance gap quite wide still at the end of Q3 with the assumption of the possibility to close some of those, but they didn't materialize yet, but we're still working on them and quite positive how things are looking. So the profitability. So basically, I explained the FX part. So looking at why the revenue profitability is down from the Q4 '24. The FX had the EUR 860,000, the impact. Then we had clinical trial costs, which are EUR 0.5 million higher, which is related to the FDA ILLUME clinic DRSplus, so the screening platform, FDA trials. Those are expected to continue into this year. We're still now in the pre-study phase based on the findings, then we'll kind of have a better understanding how the actual clinical trial is going to be done and what scope. So the full value or the cost is not fully clear yet at this point, but we're talking about above EUR 1 million, definitely most likely around EUR 1.5 million cost for this year. And those are hitting the P&L. So they are something we don't capitalize. So the price increase delays also had an impact on the profit. And then finally, we had the nonrecurring costs during the quarter, basically related to negotiations and also other one-off projects. Kind of going into '26, there's been kind of we've always been kind of seen as a scalable company. If you leave out the FDA clinical trial costs, which are some in one way, one-off costs, our assumption or our expectation is that we are going to target to grow the top line faster than the other operating expenses, so kind of getting scale back to the bottom line. The balance sheet remains strong. There hasn't been any major shift here for the last couple of years. We had over EUR 26 million in the bank at the end of the year versus a little bit more than EUR 20 million a year earlier. The interest-bearing debt was roughly EUR 11 million at the end of the year. And same picture you can see here. So basically, the interest -- the net gearing coming down fast, driven by the strong cash generation. So the interest-bearing debt basically breaks down -- so basically, we have EUR 5.8 million left of the bank loan we withdraw for acquiring Centervue. So basically 6 quarters -- so the down payment is roughly EUR 1 million a quarter. So next 6 quarters will be bank debt-free at least. And then the remaining part is the right-to-use liabilities, which are about EUR 5 million at the end of the year. Cash flow, very strong record high, almost EUR 16 million within Q4, basically driven by efficient working capital management and then lower payments in tax than we had earlier. And then the dividend. So we've had a long trend of more than 10 years of paying a growing dividend. Now reading today's analyst reports in media, seems like mostly people are under read it or maybe it's AI doing some of the parts, but it seems like the reports are stating that the dividend is EUR 0.44 that is payable just as normal. If you read carefully what the Board is proposing to the AGM, it is asking for authorization to decide separately on a dividend payment of up to EUR 0.44 during this year. So -- but the intention or how maybe the investors should read it is that there isn't a chance that we will pay the dividend as normally after the AGM. But I'd say there's just as good of a chance that the dividend is paid after summer. It's maybe smaller than EUR 0.44 or there could be no dividend this year. So that's just to kind of clarify. And hopefully, those are being -- I think those -- some of the articles have been fixed already during the day. Shareholder side, not really any major changes. Demand ownership slightly increased, not much. The foreign ownership is up less than 1%. So the Finnish down and foreign up. And then looking at the top 10 list, it's mostly the same. Swedbank and [ La Financière ] have fallen out. And we have Case Kapital and Handelsbanken that have come as owners on the top 10 list during the quarter. And the guidance, we expect the exchange rate adjusted net sales to grow 8% to 15% from the previous year and profitability, excluding nonrecurring items, is estimated to remain at a good level.

Thank you, Robin. I think it's time for the questions.

[Operator Instructions] The next question comes from Nikko Ruokangas from SEB.

This is Nikko Ruokangas from SEB. I have 3 questions, and I'll go one by one. And starting with your sales guidance. So could you discuss about different building blocks behind the sales guidance and maybe their importance, although not exactly quantifying them. I mean, for example, the big deals in your pipeline, microperimeter growth, price increases and kind of underlying market growth, how important are they?

So if you look at the drivers, so what we see for this year, so we see tonometry growing, we see fundus imaging growing, we see microperimetry growing. So -- so those are the drivers. And of course, if we think the U.S.A., so the plan is to offset the tariffs now, and we were slightly delayed on that part. So there, we have been discussing that for the U.S.A. in order to offset the tariffs for the U.S. part of the business, it's roughly 4% to 5% that we have to increase the prices. But I think that's more or less in a nutshell, anything to add on the driver side, Robin?

Yes. I think to get to the upper end, we hopefully are successful in some of the larger deals we're working on and kind of the base assumption, excluding those is somewhere hopefully in the middle. So those are kind of the swing factors.

All right. I understand. Then continuing on the price increases related to tariffs. So what is the reason for lagging in price increases compared to your tariff costs now as you already had kind of a pre shipped inventory for 6 months ahead of the price increasing due to tariffs?

I think we were just perhaps too optimistic to get everything through the chain, so meaning through the -- up to the proposals up to the customers. So I think it was as simple as that.

All right. But you are now seeing that is progressing.

Yes.

Did you say, yes?

Yes. Sorry. Yes, yes. Sorry, we said yes. Sorry, Nikko, Yes. So the answer is yes.

Yes. Good. Then final one from me. You mentioned that your fixed cost should scale now in 2026 is excluding the FDA costs. But if you also include the FDA costs and gross margin headwinds from tariffs, should we expect kind of improving adjusted EBIT margin this year still?

It depends a bit how where we hit on the guidance. So it's maybe challenging on the lower end. If we're in the upper end, it is a very scalable model. So basically, we can grow 12% or 3% more, say, 5% more than -- EUR 5 million more than that, and it's still kind of making the 70% margin on the additional sales. So I think it depends a bit where we hit on the guidance level. But I think the FDA is a bit tricky because we don't even know ourselves how much it's exactly going to be, and it's kind of something that is -- it's kind of a onetime. But basically, the operating engine, so the clinical trial costs are not really generated by any of our people. It's kind of outside service that we pay for. So basically, the kind of our internal OpEx, that should be kind of now quite well under control in regards to growth and how the top line is growing versus cost is growing.

The next question comes from Jack Reynolds-Clark from RBC Capital Markets.

Three for me also, please. The first was on screening. Could you talk through how much growth in Q4 and 2025 was driven by screening kind of both in the hardware sales that kind of the system generated, but then also the reports that come out and then what your expectations are for 2026? And then I've got 2 more questions as well that I'll ask that.

Jack, so -- on the screening side, so here, I have to slightly disappoint you on the detailed numbers. So we don't disclose the kind of subgroup numbers. But I would perhaps frame it so that if we think the Europe, Middle East, Africa region, and we think the imaging sales, especially the DRSplus sales. So during the 2025, we saw a strong growth on the hardware side of the business in EMEA region, driven by the screening cases. So the amount of the report, so we have doubled that one. I think we have tripled the amount of the live sites. And quite many of those also take the hardware. So on that front, it's scaling up quite nicely. But sorry to disappoint you slightly, Jack, so we are not able to give the sub breakdowns per product group in terms of the revenue. Anything to add Robin on this?

Basically, the model is that we do recognize actually the whole hardware when we make a new deal for the screening centers. So in a way, upfront, it's very hardware weighted the revenue. But once the customer base and installed base increases, we will start to see a bigger part of the revenue coming from the software and AI side as well. But now it's actually -- yes, you will have the hardware in day 1 and then the software like the following X years. So in a way, it's very front hardware weighted.

And here, just to remind everybody about the business model. So we sell the hardware, then we sell the ILLUME yearly recurring software license, which scales up based on the reports based on the DRSpluses, which we have been attached to the system. And then the third component is the AI reports. And there, the logic is a bit like the prepaid SIM card. So when you run out of the minutes, so you have to top up to be able to speak and hear if you want to run the reports and you are out of the report, so you just have to buy the new set.

That's super helpful. That's actually more than I'm expecting. thanks for the color. The next question is on sales and marketing. So you talked about this being a strategic focus for you for 2026. Can you just tell us kind of exactly what you're doing here and kind of what the changes are and how that will feed through to revenue growth?

So I think it's good to go back to the 2025 end of first half 2025 when we were wondering that what kind of approach we should have, especially in the U.S.A. So should we wait and sit still to see how the tariffs or what kind of impact the tariffs are going to have for the U.S. business, but we took the other approach. So we were more aggressive on the sales side. So we hired really good salespeople. So more really good salespeople for the U.S.A. We bump up the marketing expense regarding the digital marketing in the U.S.A. and in other parts of the world to create more leads. And I think that explains and outlines also this year strategic focus, so if only talking about the sales and marketing. So more rentless attention to the distribution cooperation and more endless focus on really closing the sales in the U.S.A. via direct rep network. And then as you saw, so we also recruited a top-notch Global Head for our sales and -- sorry, for our marketing department, Jussi Nevanlinna. So strong background on the marketing, product marketing and marketing in general across the globe. A couple of examples, Jack, on that front.

That's great. And then my last question, Robin, you talked through one of the swing factors for guidance -- for top line guidance for next year, obviously being the contracts. Could you give any color on any other swing factors that we should be thinking about? Any risk to the downside or any other kind of big things that might swing?

Well, our kind of internal plan is somewhere in the middle. then, of course, we leave some room for movement regarding to any changes in the U.S. economic environment or the tariffs or sudden change in the demand. Our visibility is quite limited. So our backlog, we've sold almost nothing for March even yet.

So that's normal.

That's normal. So in a way, the -- also we don't see it that far in the future. So the kind of baseline assumption is somewhere in the middle and then the larger deals are the kind of the swing factor there.

But we see, so Jack is the – Of course, we see the pipeline. And so the pipeline is strong. So that's a good thing. And then also the year has started so that we are well on the track for the first couple of weeks.

Like APAC, for example, has been a bit problematic now for 2 quarters. So hopefully, we can turn that around during this year.

The next question comes from Daniel Lepisto from Danske Bank.

It's Daniel Lepisto from Danske Bank. I have also a couple of questions. Maybe still starting -- continuing with the ILLUME and the 350 sites you have in operation. So can you give us any indication what kind of revenue potential there could be for one of these sites? Are we talking about thousands or, for example, hundreds of thousands? Any help here?

Sorry, Daniel. Sorry, not too much. So not too much, but it just shows the pace of getting the sites operational. And then, of course, if you think of Germany, so then we have the unique Connect feature, which then also combines the ophthalmologist to being part of the network. So that's also picking up nicely, and it's a unique feature compared to the others. So we are bit by bit starting to build the ecosystem around the retina screen.

There's a message that audio stopped. Do you see? I guess kind of saying that the audio cut off.

Do you guys hear us on the line?

Are you hearing us, Daniel?

Yes, I can hear you.

Okay. Well, maybe there was some…

Okay.

Okay, let's view…

We got a WhatsApp that the audio cut off.

Okay, okay, I think we are in there.

Okay. Maybe if I then ask, is there any estimation how many such sites are there for you to address, if I put it this way? So you have 350, what's the universe that you are targeting? Any insight on this?

Yes, but not willing to comment too much. So sorry for that one, Daniel.

Okay. Maybe on the -- then on the capital expenditure. So if we look at '24, '25, there has been a bit of a small uplift what comes to maybe historical level. It's like 4% to 5% of sales over the past few years. So is this the new normal level? Or could there be a bit of a moderation looking forward?

It depends a bit on the road map. So there's -- once products start to come out, that always kind of changes the CapEx run rate. But it's probably something similar you could expect for this year.

All right. That's clear. Then my final question still on the clinical trial costs. Can you give any sort of indication on the phasing of these costs? Like will this run from Q1 onwards? Or will this start from the summer? Or any sense on the phasing, how do you see costs?

Yes. Maybe I take that one. So the biggest variable is that how we are able to recruit the patients into the clinic. So the current assumption is that it's reasonably evenly split, but I mean it depends on the pace of recruiting the patients in. Okay, so that's logic.

And then the next phase then is still a bit open.

Yes. And here, one thing -- that's a good point, Robin. So if we think the structure of the clinical studies, so where we have had a challenge and why we are late is that we have to now run the so-called pre-study because of the good quality of DRSplus images. And then we see and compare that one to the reference implementation or reference setup. And then most probably, we have to fine-tune the algorithm so that it matches the worser quality imaging device, which is used as a reference. And then we have to then start running the kind of official clinical study. So that's -- those are the variables on this one.

Okay. And can you clarify what's the latest time line on you to secure the FDA approval in the end? So, what's the time line?

Yes. So the latest on that one is towards the end of first half 2027. So that time line hasn't changed.

The next question comes from Pia Rosqvist-Heinsalmi from DNB Carnegie.

It's Pia from DNB Carnegie. I start by looking back at Q4 and your FX-neutral growth of roughly 9%. Can you split up that anyway in how much came from volume, how much from price increases given your comments on delayed price increases in the U.S.?

That's more on volume based. We did have a record sale in the U.S. in December, so clearly better than ever before. So the volumes grew actually quite nicely in Q4. We didn't actually have much price increases during that quarter.

All right. Then if I continue regarding these larger than typical orders. Do I understand correctly that these relate to imaging devices for screening purposes?

Actually, no, generally, in imaging and tonometers might be part of the picture as well and specifically in the U.S.A.

All right. Clear. And with regards to your comment on really strong sales in the U.S., particularly in December, are there any new client groups kind of becoming more active? Or is this just a reflection of a broad demand?

I think the sales was good also on the broader terms, but we have been now getting also into the different tables around the different tables, if I may use that phrase, where we haven't been before, thanks to the investments to the sales team during the end of first half. I think that's the logic.

All right. And still on your gross margin, can you repeat, Robin, your comment on your indication of the gross margin for 2026? I missed that. Did you say...

We have a…

…to remain below 70%.

We have an internal magical 70% that we kind of try to reach with the gross margin. with the tariffs is, of course, a bit more challenging, but we definitely should be higher than what we now saw in Q4, so closer to the 70% mark.

So closer, but still below?

It could be above also. It depends a bit on the mix and everything.

All right. Okay. And then 2 final short questions. Regarding the cash flow, you referred to it as an exceptionally strong cash flow. Were there any exceptional items in that strong cash flow?

No, no, it wasn't really. There was basically a small tax return that hit the Q4 numbers, but basically, it's clearly less than EUR 1 million. So other than that, it's business as usual.

All right. That's good. And then finally, can you remind us regarding Centervue and you allocated some of that purchase price, I presume, to be kind of depreciated. When are those depreciations coming to an end?

If I remember right, the technology bucket was the biggest, and I think it's 10 years. So we have still some time to go. It could be 7 years or 8 years or 10 years. I don't remember right on top of my head what the depreciation period is. But I think we still have some -- I can check and come back to you separately, if you want.

The next question comes from Joni Sandvall from Nordea.

Maybe starting with the new product pipeline, noticing that the R&D costs were somewhat elevated in Q4. So could you give any more color on the new product pipeline for this year?

So perhaps a couple of viewpoints. And Robin, you please correct me if I'm wrong. So we have been doing a bit of an allocation, right? So certain like FDA costs are now visible on the R&D bucket.

And clinical trials.

Yes, clinical trials are also in the R&D bucket. So that might be the reason. I think otherwise, we have been running quite steadily, roughly 10% per year out of the revenue. Am I correct, Robin?

Yes.

So perhaps if you see elevated numbers, so the FDA costs are now coming as a part of the R&D cost bucket. I think that partly explains the lift up on the R&D cost side.

And then we do have use outsourced for R&D outsourced service providers. So those also go project-wise, not necessarily evenly month after month. So there's some swings in those as well.

Okay. And so we should expect something new also this year?

Unfortunately, I cannot comment that one too much, but that one I can comment that we -- in our mind, we have a good road map for the products on the tonometry, fundus imaging and perimetry side in the forthcoming years and then timing to be decided and communicated when they come out.

Okay. Then maybe a second question on the sales mix. Robin mentioned that depends a bit where you will end with the gross margin in '26, but were there any specific in the gross sales mix in Q4?

No, it was actually -- all the main product groups were doing quite well. So nothing kind of out of normal over there. Also kind of depends how the APAC currencies, for example, are or the APAC sales. So they are struggling with sell in euros. So a bit hands tied of regards at least what comes to price increases there. And then kind of U.S., of course, direct sales has a very good gross margin. So it depends on the geography as well slightly.

[Operator Instructions].

It's Erik Karlsson from CapeView Capital. Three questions, please. Maybe on the gross margin in a bit longer perspective, not so much 2026, but over the next 2 years, 3 years, when you look at your product road map and where the business is heading, do you think gross margins will go up or down in the next 2, 3 years?

Yes.

Yes, maybe we take them one by one, it's easier.

Maybe it's easier to remember. So no, I think the software is starting to play in the recurring revenue is starting to play a bigger part in the coming years, and that will have an increasing impact on the gross margin. So the AI reports, for example, are more or less almost 100% gross margin and the software in general. So definitely, we hope to see that actually increasing going forward. But the software part is still like the screening, like we discussed earlier, that's very hardware heavy in the front. So once the installed base and the user base grows, then that kind of starts to have a bigger impact on the gross margin. And then I don't know what happens with the tariffs, but that's a separate problem that if it increases, it will probably have a lowering percent impact and vice versa.

Got it. And on [ microspectry ], what's your ambition there roughly? How much sales can you generate? Or would you target to generate this year?

Microperimetry, was it?

Yes...

So historically, we've sold before the new latest MAIA and the latest developments in geographic atrophy drug development. We used to sell EUR 2 million to EUR 3 million a year. I think our kind of message has been that we expect it to be clearly more than that. And then there's maybe do want Jouni open the clinical potential on the MAIA side.

Yes. So of course, clearly, I think we would be disappointed if it's not way higher than the previous years when we had the product. So I think that's a silver clear. Then during 2026, so we are putting quite a lot of effort to trying to push MAIA out from the research also to the clinical use in order to be able to measure the efficacy of the geographic atrophy-related drugs. And if we are able to be successful on that one, so that's going to have a major impact also to the MAIA sales in years to come, but that's shortly the logic.

That's helpful. And one last one. I think on M&A, you talked about it and then you mentioned that you're proposing to postpone the dividend and even lower it. It's a bit unusual, I think. It seems to me to signal that you might do that in the event of M&A. What are you specifically looking at? What type of product categories or type of acquisitions would be most of interest to you?

Perhaps just to be silver clear on this one so that we keep the 2 buckets perhaps separately. So first commenting the dividend. So I think it was ex-Volvo CEO that said 1980s that the cash is king when there's a turbulent times. So now the logic why the Board is proposing the setup is that we have a bit more freedom in this bit more, let's say, non-forecastable times that we maintain a bit more freedom to allocate the capital into the best places. So I think that's just good to keep in mind. Then the second topic is your comment related to the M&A, and that has been on the table for quite a long time. So we would have been able to close already the deals on the M&A side, but we haven't closed them. And the reason simply is that they wouldn't have been good for our existing shareholders. So growth potential profitability hasn't had a match to the overall valuation. So we have been working now with Robin quite heavily during the last quarters, during the last years to fill the gap. So if you think the market where we operate, so it's ophthalmic diagnostic device market, roughly EUR 3.5 billion. Here also we cover only 1/3. So we have a EUR 1 billion market coverage, and it would be great if in the coming years, coming quarters, we would be able to expand our product portfolio. on the hardware side, and that would enable us to go directly also in the big countries and of course, bring scale to the top line, bring scale to the bottom line. So I think that has been the logic on the inorganic growth side as a driver. But Robin, anything you would like to add on this one?

No, no, that's exactly. So kind of -- we've been working on that quite a bit for a long time with Jouni and still it remains on the agenda as we go into the new year.

It's very much appreciated. Maybe a follow-up, but it's very much appreciated by shareholders that you so disciplined on price. It seems to me, at least the public market valuations have come down. Just look at the share price of Carl Zeiss Meditec or most names in Alcon, et cetera, in the space. Do you also feel that in your M&A discussions that they are more realistic price expectations now? Or it hasn't yet filtered down to slightly smaller companies?

I think it's now becoming more reasonable in the -- also in the non-listed companies. At least like a couple of years, it's been -- they were sticking to the corona high pricing.

And quite often, they were looking at our multiples and not growing as much and not making profit as much, but the multiples are more or less.

Expect to be the same. Expect to be the same. Yes.

There are no more questions at this time. So I hand the conference back to the speakers for any closing comments.

Thank you all. Thank you for your time. Thank you for the very good questions. And I think next time, we are back on April with the Q1 earnings call. So thank you very much, and have a nice spring when it comes, at least here in Finland. It's not in too short time seems to be. So thank you, and have a good end of the week and good spring. Bye.

Bye.