Rheinmetall AG (RHM) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Good morning, everybody. Welcome to the Capital Markets Day of Rheinmetall. I hope you enjoyed yesterday, not only the evening, but also the presentations. Today, we will walk through our technologies. Later, my colleague, Rene Gansauge, will give you an overview about the operations. And on the financial side, Klaus takes care. Then at the end of the presentation, I will give you an outlook about that, what we want to do. And during the lunch, I think we can go through and give you an overview about the vehicles and technology, if you're interested, what we have here inside this facility. So one thing which is very -- that is very important for Rheinmetall is that we have dramatic spendings, and you know this exactly, especially on the German side. And the beauty at the moment is that Germany really wants to invest. We see it. We see all the negotiation, but it's not only Germany, it's whole Europe. Germany is the main driver. Germany has to be the main driver because Germany has the money. And the NATO target that we have, 3.5% or in total, 5% spendings up to 2035. This is really a reality on the German side. What you see is on the budget side, what happens and the German budget will grow up to EUR 180 billion. A lot of that will be investments in materials because for sure, the personnel has to grow up. But at the end of the day, the personnel costs are not as high as the spendings are going north. There is a clear message from the German Chancellor and the Chancellor says, Germany wants or has to become the largest European fighting force. And it will be reality. I really trust in that because of all the investment programs that you see later, especially which is coming from Germany. And another point is that Germany is a lead nation now in Europe. A lead nation means that they really try to make a pooling. On the ammunition side, on the vehicle side, a pooling means that, for example, if we signed the Schakal, which is here also that you -- the vehicle that you can see. And the Chairman said, okay, Netherlands should come and should join the club to have bigger contracts to have a pooling, which is also very important. And we -- Rheinmetall is expanding now into space, into air, into naval and into the army. So these are -- we always were very strong on the army side, but this is a new message now because of the decision to step into NVL. If I speak about NVL, I speak about our company. But as you know, at the beginning, still closing is not done. So -- but we believe that in Christmas time or latest in January, it will be done. So that we have an expansion across the whole portfolio. And you see some of the products that were here, really some of the products. Rheinmetall in between has 2,000 different products that we can give to defence forces. We will not speak about civilian business today, and the reason is very clear. We will take it from the top line. Klaus will give you an information about that. And from January on, it is not longer on the top line, our civilian business, and we -- I think we are able to sell it in Q1 or Q2 next year. So in the circle is we had 30 years of underspending. Rheinmetall is building up the capabilities, not only on the land domain, but also on other areas. What's the scenario now? The scenario and that's very clear, the aggressor at the moment is coming from Russia, no doubt about it. And if I speak with the Prime Ministers of the eastern flank that we have, if you go to the Baltics, if you go to Poland, if you go to other areas, they said, on the eastern part, we are really afraid about that. And they must be afraid because they see nearly daily attacks. Attacks from the Russian Navy, attacks from drones, which are coming up, and we have to prepare ourselves. And there is no doubt at the moment, absolutely no doubt that especially the eastern flank countries are very, very convinced that they have to invest more and Germany is part of them. It's not the same in Spain, and this is also very easy. If you see Europe, it's far away from the area where we have problems. And it's at the end of the day, for sure, also a political decision, but also Spain wants to grow up to 2% of the GDP to do something because they are part of the NATO. And part of the NATO, and this is a differentiator that we had 5 years ago, the NATO at the moment is driving. Mark Rutte is the driver at the moment to give the different countries really clear tasks what they have to do. How many brigades they have to send into the NATO, what kind of equipment they need. That is very helpful for us because we know exactly how many vehicles they need. We know exactly how much ammunition they need, but in all other areas also, so we are very near to NATO. That's a differentiator to 5 years ago where NATO nearly played no role. And NATO states in Europe, playing a big role. 5 years ago, it was the United States of America. They were the driver. They drove everything. Now Europe wants to be a real partner of the United States of America. And we have a strong conflict in the Baltic Sea. You keen -- you seen not a lot into the newspapers about that. But if you speak with the German Navy and the German Navy is the main protector of the Baltic Sea, they see every day attacks from Russians, from submarines, not really attacks to fight against frigates or whatever, but to have, yes, let me say, a little bit of a cold war in that area. And that is the reason that Germany will invest a lot into the Navy. The Navy investments, which are coming up over the next 10 years is a level of more than EUR 80 billion only for the Navy. It's everything in. It's submarines, it's frigates, it's corvettes, et cetera, et cetera. So we have a neighbor, and this neighbor is dangerous, and we have to prepare ourselves. A small overview about the budget. From the budget side, you see the German spending underpins the aspiration that we have. And it's going up to EUR 180 billion, as I said before. And I really believe in that figures. If you speak at the moment with the politicians, if you speak with our Finance Minister, there is no discussion at the moment that we have to spend it in Germany. Absolutely no discussion. I personally thought that these numbers are too high because in our simulation, we have not numbers which are as high. But if you combine that also with other European states, what they are spending, it's for sure growing up and it's bigger. Coming back to a slide that we have shown you 2 years ago. That's also very important because a lot of people ask us, is it possible to hurry up to grow up all that things? And this is again what we have shown you 2 years ago. We need for ammunition from order intake to production 6 to 12 months. We need for logistic vehicles, 12 months, for medium-weight vehicles up to 18 months, for main battle tanks, 24 months and for soldier systems with all the electronics inside, we need also 12 months. So we are able to react in 1 year, mostly in 1 year. Very rare cases, we need 2 years. So at the end of the day, we are very fast. And you sit here at the moment, in a factory where 2 years ago, where Bush, we had Bush here 2 years ago. And it's possible to build in 12 months such factories that you have seen. The only thing is what we need is from the governmental side, we need, let me say, a safe base. And the safe base is to have long-term contracts. And we discuss a lot with our governments about that thing to get these long-term contracts now, and I think we will get it. What are now the budgets that Germany wants to spend over the next years. And this is what is in the planning. Sometimes a little bit -- it changed. If ammunition is going from EUR 80 billion to EUR 60 billion and next year, it again is going up, it doesn't matter. So this is -- the figures are so big. I'm absolutely not afraid that something happens in this area. But Germany wants to invest EUR 80 billion in ammunition. As I said before, a little bit more than EUR 80 billion in navy, EUR 10 billion on air defence, EUR 10 billion on drones, more than EUR 50 billion on vehicles, EUR 35 billion in satellites and also EUR 35 billion in digitization. The reason that we have shown you digitization yesterday is that we change at the moment really our company. Rheinmetall has changed, and we are getting more and more a digital company. And the reason is not that we are not convinced that vehicles or platforms are not important. We are convinced they are important. But we are convinced that the future is the connectivity. And without connectivity, you are not longer able to be a platform producer. And the platform is the base. The platform is the base for that. So that's the basic know-how that you need. And the digitization, what you have seen yesterday from satellites pictures to the drone pictures to the battle management system where the algorithms are coming from Rheinmetall. And for your understanding, and I really take time today about that. The starting point from Rheinmetall was not to say, okay, we are the kings of battle management systems. The starting point was 20 years ago that we are the digitization guys from the soldiers. The soldier system, which is a big digital system, was the starting point of Rheinmetall, and we started 20 years ago together with the German government. Now we have implemented in different countries, our soldier system, but this is the starting point. From the soldier system, we go to the vehicles. It was impossible to communicate from the soldiers with the vehicle side digital because the vehicles were not digital. So for your understanding is that is the reason that we have the D-LBO program. The digitization -- the land-based operations on the -- from the army side, the digitization from the Army is the second point. The soldier system is worthless if you don't have also the digitization on the vehicle side. So -- and with the digitization in the vehicle side, you can communicate because 24,000 vehicles over the next 2 years will be digitized. This is the second big contract that we have. There is multibillions for the soldier systems, multibillions for the vehicles. And now the next step is coming. If the vehicle are digitized, we have to go to navy and to air force. On the air force side, we are on the way with F-35 because F-35 will be the backbone for digitization for information flow from the air force to the army. And the frigates and corvettes will be the backbone for the digitization from the navy to the army. And that is the reason that we stepped in into the F-35 business because together with Lockheed and together with our digitization technology, we are able to be a good partner for the German Air Force or for the German forces in total. And now with the platform that we stepped in, in NVL, we are able to be a good partner for the whole German forces. That is the real thing behind NVL. It's not that we say super, we are able now to build a ship. The ship by themselves is 25% to 30% of the value. But the equipment on the ship, this is really that what is important, missile system, missile lounger, the combat management system on ships, et cetera, et cetera. And we do the same what we did on the army side. We make a vertical integration on the naval side. Nobody at the moment is doing that. That's a big differentiator. So what happens now in Ukraine and how important is Ukraine? And is Ukraine a game changer if the war stops? A lot of people always asking me, yes, but what happens if tomorrow, the war stops? The Ukrainian business, yes, it's EUR 1.3 billion. We want to grow up to be a company of EUR 50 billion in this area. It's a small piece, the whole arena that we have and the backlog is EUR 1.7 billion. We deliver a lot, and we could deliver much more, but it's a money issue. At the moment, the Ukrainians have no money about that. The Americans stopped spending. The Europeans not stopped spending. Today, there is another meeting, as you know, between the Chancellor and the Prime Ministers from U.K. and France in Berlin. This evening, they have a dinner there. And they discuss how much spendings are coming. But we see at the moment, the spendings are going down. We give them something. We give them always ammunitions, but it's absolutely not enough really to fight the Russians back. But what we want to show you, we have from vehicle services to the Lynx localization, everything in place. But at the moment, it's a small business if you compare it to the rest of the Rheinmetall business. What's the situation that we have at the moment? We have a significant progress on our growth path. And you see it, first of all, on the backlog, as you know, expectation is around EUR 80 billion end of '25. And I told you also during the -- all the conferences that we had, that we have a potential to grow up to EUR 120 billion mid of next year because of all the big contracts, which you will see later. So the sales on the defence side, we have a growth rate of 35% to 40% on the sales side. I think there are not a lot of companies also in defence who have a growth rate between 35% and 40% but we stay on that level. And the reason that we are able to do this is that we really reorganized our operation systems. Rene will give you an overview about that, what we did. And you have seen some of that, for example, yesterday, if you go here behind that wall, it's a fully automized production line. As I said, here, 40 people per shift are able to produce up to 500,000 shells and 350,000 full shots of ammunition. That's also a differentiator. You cannot see a production line like that on a second place in the world at the moment, not one. And I think a lot of your people had also a look into our partners or competitors, however you want to call them, to go in. And the operational margin will grow. And if you see, and we gave a lot of information, and I think there is one information missing here. The operating margin that we have on the defence side is going nearly to the 20%, which is our target because here is also the civilian business, which is a flat business and which makes no profit inside. So next year, the figures will, for sure, change if we take the civilian business from our top line. And what we're also doing is we believe in partnerships. We believe in partnerships and joint ventures. And we discussed it yesterday. 3 years ago, Rheinmetall has no clue about satellites. But in a strategic meeting, we, the Board of Rheinmetall, yes, we asked our people what the hell is the reason that we are not going into space. The people told us, yes, because we have no clue about that. They said, can we find a way? Then he said, okay, I want to have in the next 2 weeks a statistics about all the satellite producers. And we found that ICEYE is a 100% good partner for us because it's a small company. They want to grow. They have good technologies. They have the best SAR technology at the moment in Europe, maybe worldwide in this area. So we contacted them. We made this joint venture and the production start will be now in Q2 '26 in Neuss. Maybe the next Capital Markets Day will be in Neuss because then you see a production line, which is similar to that, what you have here, but also on the electronics side, on the turret side. So with that joint ventures, with Auterion, where we bought shares now. Last week or 2 weeks ago, we had -- it's still not in the -- I think we have to give a press release now about that. We bought shares of them. Anduril, a good partner. You have seen it yesterday. On the Anduril side, we are -- we try to implement American technologies here to Europe. And we use everything also on Lockheed on joint venture base. We are the door opener. We open the door for U.S. companies, for technology companies. We cooperate and we create a win-win situation. And the win-win situation is that we said I want to have 60% of the profit. I have everything, let me say, on the top line, but you have 40% from the profitability from a market where you usually are not able to come in. And that is what the Americans love. The American -- President Trump loves that. I said, "Hey, you make America great if you do it in that way because you open market for us in different areas." We are a German cross-domain system house. And you see it in these areas. And we speak about ecosystem. What we build up is to build up an ecosystem for our governments. And this ecosystem is going from sea to air and space. And the center of all that, for sure, has to be digitization. This is what we tried to show you yesterday also. I'm coming always back to that point because a lot of people always telling us, Rheinmetall, yes, it's a gun producer and whatever. It's wrong. We are a gun producer, but we make 1.5% of our sales with guns. It's nearly nothing, and it's an important thing because with guns, you can sell ammunition because you have the combination between that. But at the end of the day, it's much, much more behind. And maybe that's boring for you, but it's important. Again, we have a worldwide ecosystem, and we created especially a European ecosystem. And if you see from Germany to Italy, from Italy to Great Britain, now Poland is one of our new partners because they want to make the support vehicles together with us. And you know that Poland is a very hard market to conquer. But I think we are on a good way now also. And with nearly every European country, we have -- in every European country, we have nearly production lines. But with every European country, we cooperate. And we have contracts. And we get year-by-year contracts from more than 120 different nations in the world. So a very, very international business. From January on, we will have a new organization. I think this is also a very important point for us. As you know, last year, we implemented a centralized operations. The divisions are still for sure, responsible for the P&L. But Rene is taking care about that they have the same operation processes. He takes care about automization. And he takes care about that we do not have 5 different strategies of our automization processes and our internal digitization processes. That's also very important. So to have a transparent IT system, et cetera, et cetera. Otherwise, it's impossible to have this growth rate. But now we said, okay, we have Vehicle Systems. And the biggest shop of automization over the next 1.5 years is in Vehicle Systems. Weapon and Ammunition is done. You see it more from the same. That's easy. You don't need experts about that to copy things what we have. But on the Vehicle Systems side, that's much more complicated, welding chassis, welding turrets automatically to have some robots to implement stuff, cabling technologies, all that things. And Rene is on the way together with his team and for sure, the divisions to make it happen. We have a new division, Air Defence. So we make it transparent to you also how successful air defence is. We speak a lot about that things, but air defence was part of the Electronic Solutions side. Air defence and digital will be 2 different divisions. And that division will be transparent for you how successful they are. In digital side, we invest at the moment more, but the profitability of Air defence, you will see is from the beginning on very, very high. And we will have, for sure, after closing, and we hope that we have this in January, naval. Rheinmetall naval systems is another new division that we have. So that's a new organization that we start in 2026. The NATO is telling us what we have to do. The NATO says very clear where are the gaps. And if you see the gaps that we have at the moment in NATO and including United States of America, you see air and missile defence, artillery systems, ammunition missiles, drones and drone defence systems, military mobility, strategic trailblazers or protection and infrastructure, cyber and electronic warfare. What is missing? The beauty is, if we got that from NATO, that we are in all areas, and we have business in all areas that was there. In some areas, we are the #1 in the world. And in some areas, we want to grow in. Military mobility, super. Ammunitions, really good. On the missile side, we have to grow in. You are here in the place in 1 year's time, that we will produce components here for missiles here in that factory. This is not the whole to make Capital Market Days for sure. So we want to produce here something, yes. Artillery systems, who is better? And air and missile defence, we are very strong on the canon-based, but you see a lot of new products also all in these areas where we step in. And this is the growth path in NATO. Here is where NATO creates growth. And in all domains, in all 7 domains, Rheinmetall is working and will expand the product portfolio. And this is nothing for 2 or 3 years. This is a strategy for the next 10, 15 years, which is perfect because of the contracts which will come up. And what are our internal targets? What is where we -- what we want to reach? What is our management target? The whole management team wants to reach this target. In 2030, we want to be on a sales around EUR 50 billion. This is what we want. The operating margin is, as I said, here is still on '25 with 15.5% the civilian business inside. We will be maybe on a level of 18%, 19% this year on the defence side. We want to be bigger. We want to have better figures than 20% on the operational margin. And the cash conversion rate and the investments are this year, next year and also, I think, a little bit the year after next year. But then everything is done. The investments that we have to do on the vehicle side is much smaller than the investment on the ammunition side. It's by far the biggest investments, powder plants to produce these chemical industry factories. This is a huge investment that we have to do, but then it's done. And after having done that investment, the investment rate is going down so that the cash conversion rate has to grow up to more than 50%. A very important part is for sure the down payments. And on the down payment side, we are working hard with our customers at the moment to get the money, and we are on a very good way. A lot of customers are very happy to give us 20% or 30% down payment. And if the -- really, really big contracts are coming, which I go now inside the discussions, you will see that we will be also in good shape. Like last year in Roma, I want to go into now into the segments and want to give you a detailed information about that. And we speak about 2030. We don't speak about the next year. We speak about that, what's really going on, what we expect and what is coming. Vehicle Systems has a potential of EUR 13 billion to EUR 15 billion in 2030. What's the way to that EUR 15 billion. You've seen other years, '25, '26, '27, et cetera. And you see, and that's very important on the bottom line. So the light blue to the dark blue. The dark blue, for example, here, if you see the Boxer, it's a contract between EUR 10 billion and EUR 20 billion, a single contract between EUR 10 billion and EUR 20 billion. And the light blue is up to EUR 2 billion. So these are the smaller ones. Sometimes -- I know this company very long. And sometimes it's -- for me, if I see all these figures, it's like a wonder world, yes, because we spoke 6, 7 years ago about contracts, EUR 200 million, EUR 500 million, maximum about that. Now nobody of you, nobody of you takes care if we said there is a EUR 200 million contract that Rheinmetall is booking. I get a call and then you say, hey, where are the billions? Here are the billions. Here are the billions. This is what will come. So -- and if you see the whole product portfolio that we have on the vehicle side, the whole product portfolio is in a good range. The biggest driver will be the Boxer and the German business and also the international business. Because there are also a lot of international contracts, which are coming in like Italian Panther, also like the Romanian deal that will come. It's on the Lynx side, there is a huge contract coming up. We signed it last week, the agreement, and we will sign -- when the SAFE money is coming, we will sign the real contract, hopefully, in end of Q1 or Q2, it depends a little bit when the SAFE money will come from Brussels. Now Europe, if you see all that things, it would be impossible to do all this international business without SAFE money. The SAFE money is the driver for that. And the EUR 150 billion that SAFE is giving the nations, the nations finance their programs. And we are with all European nations at the moment on the way to take the SAFE money and to give them partnership because in SAFE money, you need 2 countries. And the Lynx, for example, it's Hungary, it's Italy, it's Romania. So if you have one country, the second country, yes, is looking how can we combine it with SAFE money because SAFE money is a huge advantage, as you know. Up to 2029, you have to pay no interest. And after that, yes, you have to pay nearly nothing in this area. So it's free lunch. It's free lunch to bring the investments in the European Union to the right level. And this is exactly what happens now here. I don't go into the details, but you have a handout about that things. But what you can see is that -- and this is important, the Rheinmetall nomination potential, the potential of order intake is more than EUR 65 billion. And that's very near. It's not wishful thinking. It's real programs. It's programs where we are in negotiation and that will come. So that is the reason that Germany is a driver, but internationally is a bigger driver in that area. It's not only Germany, especially up to 2030. After 2030, Germany, by the way, is a bigger driver because a lot of more contracts are coming after 2030. And the plan that Germany has at the moment is up to '29, then from '29 to '35 and then from '35 to '40. These are the 3 areas inside the plan, rearmament program from Germany. So you see that we think very, very long term. It's a 15 years period that we are thinking. And here, you see, I think that's -- I love that picture because in that picture, you can see really what happens. So driver #1 is not the main battle tank. The main battle tank is here. Driver #1 is the Boxer. It's the 8x8 vehicle. And it's -- as you know, it's not longer allowed to speak about numbers because the Ministry of Defence don't like that, but it's easy to calculate. It's thousands of vehicles. Thousands of vehicles that we have to produce. And our operations team has now a clear job to say, okay, we have to start next year with the automization program, and we have to grow up. And we said at the end of the day, the Boxer fleet, together with our partners, we have to produce 1,000 Boxers. This is a clear target per year. If you see what happens at the moment, yes, we produce 50, maybe 100. So we really have to accelerate this area, and we have to do this with automization. So Boxer is #1. Medium wheel is a small thing. This is all the 4x 4 vehicles, which is -- but tracked vehicles, inventory fighting vehicles. The vehicles that you have seen here. So Boxer -- this Schakal is the #1 or heavy weapon carrier. Then next one is the Lynx and the Puma. Also the Puma is a multibillion business because Germany will have a second lot and a third lot of that. And this business, and that's also not bad for us, I would say, is without competition. And why is it without competition? Nobody else has such a vehicle. And if you have a qualified vehicle like the Schakal here, if you see here this Schakal, that -- we will produce thousand of them. Nobody is qualified because if you have it qualified in a country, you cannot qualify another vehicle. Usually, they don't do it because they said it's too expensive. It's not good for the logistics, et cetera, et cetera. So this is for the next -- and I said 15 years. This is a program for the next 15 years. And if you see 2030, I don't speak about 2035 because it's, let me say, unrealistic to do it. But this is not the end. because we are still in the ramp-up curve, you see. And if you see -- if you started mathematics and if you see that, you see this curve is not going that, like that. This curve is usually going into the right direction. It's going north. Is there an end? Yes. Some -- it will be an end. But I see at the moment that the story will continue up to between '35 and '40 because otherwise, we are not able to deliver as much as they want. And the other beauty on the vehicle side is that usually -- and I see that on the truck side -- [Foreign Language]. Is this boring for you? Okay. It's not boring. So we have time, hopefully. The other thing is that the numbers which are here is they are huge, the Lynx, this vehicle that you see here is -- it will be a new star. If everything is running well, we have to produce 3,800 in the U.S., 209 in Hungary, 300, the Ukrainians are looking for, 298 in Romania. This is what we signed last week. Poland is looking for that. Greece is looking for that, et cetera, et cetera, 1,050 in Italy. So this is a new star, and we don't speak about small numbers. We speak about very, very high numbers. That's the reason that it's really going up. And we want to make a successful transformation of the United States on this business side to be also a powerhouse in the States. Is that in our plan? No. We have EUR 2 billion per year in our plan in the United States. If we win these contracts, for sure, we have to grow. We are much bigger than in the United States, but we don't have it in our plan for 2030. Weapon and Ammunition, EUR 14 billion to EUR 16 billion. I tried to hurry up a little bit, otherwise, Dirk is so nervous. So this is -- the -- in 2030, we have a sustainable demand from different countries in Europe, from everywhere. And what is the driver? And it's the same you can see later about in your documents. So we have good operational margins. We have a good growth rate. And the margin on the ammunition side will be really around 30%. We discussed several times the reason for that. And it's the vertical integration and it's a leverage effect that we have. And here again, I like -- as I said, these pictures are really impressive. Artillery will be the driver #1. But after artillery, this -- on the rocket side, will be #2, then medium caliber. And if you see, it's not so important, tank ammunition is very small in comparison to the rest. 10 years ago, Rheinmetall was a tank ammunition producer. We changed everything also on the ammunition side. It's not that this is given. We were not a big artillery house years ago. Now we are. And these are the numbers. And this -- nothing changed here. We want to grow up to 1.5 million rounds on the artillery side, which is the biggest driver and 4 million rounds on the medium caliber side. The expansion in that is also very clear. So rocket is what you see here nearby 200 meters away, we build up that factory, and that factory will be the rocket motor production and the rocket assembly. It's a part of Roman Köhne's business that you have to build up here, which has a huge potential, as you have seen. Air defence. On the air defence side, we have EUR 3 billion to EUR 4 billion. On the EUR 3 billion to EUR 4 billion side, again, and let's go to the real pictures. I think this is also a point which is not bad. Growth rate is 30% to 35%. You have seen the growth on the ammunition, it's the same. And we have still now in '25, 16% to 17% EBIT. Next year you see it first. I think that we are able to reach next year nearly 20% EBIT growth. And the -- especially the drone attacks that we see is the driver for the business that we have. And the capability gap that all the nations have in Europe are huge, so that we have a massive business. And for sure, we have lessons learned from the war in Ukraine. And exactly that is it. And we have videos where you see several shutdowns of Shahed drones. And what you see here is -- and that's also, I think, a very interesting business up to 4-kilometer protection radius. We have it gun-based because it's much cheaper, much, much cheaper than the missiles are. And the turret is platform agnostic. So we can use trucks, we can use every vehicle to implement that turret. We have different ammunitions and these ammunitions are cheap in comparison to missiles. The price of 1 round is about $1,000. And we shoot usually 3 to 5 rounds. If you want to be safe, shoot 7 rounds, then you have EUR 7,000 mission kill in comparison to 100,000 on the missile side. And if you see what is coming in on the Ukrainian side, 90% of the attacks are coming from Class 1 and Class II drones. Class 1 are the quadcopters, the small things and Class II are the Shahed drones. And 90% of the attacks are coming from them. The heat probability that we have at the moment on these drones is more than 90%. So we shoot down more than 90% of that drones. So at the end of the day, if we shoot down them much cheaper than the drones are coming in economically, it's nonsense what they are doing. The only thing what you see in the newspapers is and in the television shows is, the 2 drones who are coming through and hit it, let me say, a building and sometimes unfortunately, they hit the wrong target and then people die. But the ballistic missiles and all the other things which is there are in the cruise missiles. It's very rare. It's very small numbers. And the reason is price. [Presentation]

The system you see here, exactly that system will be next week on the way to Ukraine. This is the first Leopard 1 chassis, which is going to Ukraine. So now a very interesting calculation, and we did that calculation also with the Ministry of Economics about the critical infrastructure and how many facilities we have as a critical infrastructure, especially in Germany. The definition is we have nearly 2,000 critical infrastructure facilities. And you see what is critical from finance system to Bundeswehr areas to information and telecommunications, et cetera, et cetera, but also transportation hubs and also medical on the health side. If you see that, there is a concept at the moment, what is -- how can we protect it. Critical infrastructure because we have a range of 4x4 kilometer to protect. Usually, you protect with 2 Skyrangers, an area with critical infrastructures, which has what is easy, yes, 8 kilometers or 16 kilometers because it's 4 and 4 (sic) [ 4x4 ] in both directions and then you need to see a second one. So you can cover a small city with that stuff. Maybe you need a little bit more. So what we have a concept with the Skyspotter, and this is an acoustic system and a radar system, you detect all the drones who are coming in. By the way, the Skyspotter, the acoustic system is the biggest system at the moment in Ukraine also. On the border line on every house, yes, they have noise detectors and these noise detectors show if drones are coming and detect them. And then you have Skyrangers and Skynex systems, so a mobile system and a station -- system on the Skynex side. These systems, 4 of that systems, which have 4 guns are in the Ukraine at the moment to protect the power plants on the -- in the western border in Ukraine. And we calculate it. So the cost of drone protection of all the critical infrastructures would be a cost of EUR 81 billion. It's only a calculation. It's not that we said, okay, what is possible with the calculation. You can implement drones, you can implement other things, but this calculation has to be done and will be done also with the ministry. The second point is a lot of people speak about the drone wall to protect the border. And if you have an area of 100 kilometer that you want to protect here, this is 100 kilometer. This is -- a cost of securing 100 kilometer is EUR 1.9 billion. In comparison, if the missiles are coming in and destroying infrastructure, it's nothing. So this is a concept at the moment where we speak with the government. This is not only defence. This is Ministry of Economics. This is a lot of other ministries, and this is also for other countries. So it's the first time that we said to secure the German eastern border, the eastern flank of Germany of 1,286 kilometers will have a price of nearly EUR 24 billion. Then you are very safe. I think it's an interesting calculation, what infrastructure at the end of the day brings. Digitization, EUR 8 billion to EUR 10 billion. I tried to hurry up a little bit. Again, you see the different points that -- where we are in. Simulation sensors like Leopard upgrade, simulation sensors like the F-35, IdZ, D-LBO, satellites. So a wide bunch of digital components that we are producing. And that is part of the ecosystem that we have. Together with that, we are able to grow up to EUR 8 billion to EUR 10 billion. At the moment, we are still on a level of -- because of the investments of 15%, we invest a lot, as you know, in F-35. We invest a lot in the algorithms now for the new systems, but that's important. But we are still very profitable. We are not like a start-up who says in the next 5 years, we make a loss. And then [Foreign Language], we will come. And so we have this 15% profitability. And we have 40% growth rate. And with that growth rate in digitization because software is easier to copy than hardware. So it's easy at the end of the day for your understanding how the profitability will go on digitization. It goes north, 100%. So we want to make nearly 20%. And I think maybe that's conservative about that thing, if software is more software is inside, we can be a little bit also a software house. As I said, on contracts like TaWAN, we are the defense telecom, Deutsche Telekom of defense because we give the net. And here in these areas on the digital side, we are a little bit the defense Microsoft for Germany because we give them the software. And here, you see what are the big drivers. And the big drivers are really the digital solutions. Here, the dark blue one, digital solution is one, but we do also a lot on the sensor side and aerospace services is coming very slowly. Space is also very -- is coming slowly, but every billion counts, and we want to grow in these areas. But the growth rate in that area is coming later. It's coming after 2030. It's not possible to do it in 2030. And there is a clear credo from different NATO leaders in these areas, and I only want to take one. Double the firepower within 3 years and triple it by end of the decade. And to do this, it's not only to have warheads, you need warheads. Without warheads, you have no firepower, but it's only possible with digitization, what you have seen yesterday. Otherwise, you don't bring it into the target. Otherwise, you miss the target. Otherwise, you cannot find the target, and this is exactly what we have to do. So this is now, in a nutshell, what really happens? As I said, Vehicle Systems, 13 to 15; Weapon and Ammunition, 14 to 16; 3 to 4, air defence; 8 to 10, digitization; 5 is naval -- on the naval side. Later, I come more also to the naval side. And then for sure, we have a target to say, okay, we want to make M&A. We are able to invest about EUR 1 billion to EUR 2 billion per year in M&A in that area. That's the way forward. That's the way of Rheinmetall. Any questions? If not -- yes.

Let's leave the mill to speed up things. Just a quick question. The only thing that really puzzled me was your statement about the 120-millimeter ammunition because when I look at plans to grow the MPT fleet, you would think that as a knock-on effect, demand for that would also increase.

Yes. But it's -- look, the main battle tank is a direct firing. On the direct firing, yes, you usually need -- and that is the bad thing. The precision of our ammunition is very high. You usually don't -- you need only 1 round to destroy the tanks. And if you see that we are able to produce 240,000 rounds, it will not grow. It will not grow much more. So it's fine to make EUR 1 billion or a little bit more than EUR 1 billion, but this is -- at the end of the day, we are able to produce tank ammunition for the whole world. We need no second factory.

Alessandro Pozzi, Mediobanca. During your remarks, you talked about the SAFE money, the SAFE facility. How much of that is a driver of revenues into 2030? And do you think it's sufficient to get to the 3.5% target? Probably not. Do you expect the safe facility to be expanded? Or do you expect new tools to be approved at the European level, such as defence Eurobonds? Second question is on 2026 guidance, probably in terms of profile to 2030, your revenues, are they more back-end loaded? And any indication of what could be the growth in 2026, if it's possible?

Yes, we want to stay in a good double-digit growth rate. And usually, I said to be conservative between 25% and 40%. This is exactly now what we said, it can be this year, let me say, it's a very good growth rate. But I be conservative and said more than 25% per year growth is absolutely in. If you calculate that, if you grow 25%, 30% per year, you come to this figure. And this is what we have to grow. And the backlog is there. So I'm very optimistic because now the production lines are running. We have more production lines, so we can hurry up also on the sales side. On the vehicle side, we are at the beginning. We need -- I think we have -- the ramp-up curve is really starting in '27. So '28, we are fully loaded with the automization that Rene will tell you later. And so the real trigger point is coming then in '28 on the vehicle side. Digitization sometimes is going much faster. I see the satellite -- on the satellite side, I see the first sales this year. Because if we sign the contract now, and we -- I think we will sign it over the next weeks, we can immediately sell pictures. And what we do is we -- on the satellite side, this is maybe also important. The satellites are our satellites. We only sell the pictures. We are the owner of the satellites, yes. It's a small Musk effect that we are doing. We get the contracts. With that contract, we are able to build the satellites, to bring the satellites into the orbit. We have a contract for 3 or 4 years. The satellites usually work for 5, 6, 7 years. And every picture that we sell later, is pure profit because there is no maintenance in the space. So this is, I think, a very also clever concept. Elon Musk did it, and we do it in a small scale. 40 satellites are the first contract that we have to bring 40 satellites, but Germany is planning to go up to 400. It's not the 6,000 that Musk has, but it's a good starting point for us if we come into this area. So satellites can grow earlier. Digitization, at the moment, we have a lot of programs like TaWAN, D-LBO, other systems to complete the soldier systems that this is a linear growth that is going up. So back-end loaded is very strong the vehicle side. Ammunitions is going linear and digitization is going linear. The -- as you have seen, the air defence is ramping up now and the air defence is really starting in '27, '28 also to go to higher value. SAFE money. On the SAFE money, I believe that there are 2 initiatives from the European Union, which are really helpful. This is the ASAP program. This was the first program where they have a small amount of money, EUR 500 million. They want to have an ASAP 2 program, which is a direct investment to the industry. This is very positive. This is a very positive thing. And the reason for that is because the industry is investing. You get a co-investment of 20%, sometimes more than 20% from the European as a donation. The European Union is giving you a donation. It's a free lunch. The ASAP program -- the SAFE program, without the SAFE program, countries like Bulgaria, like Romania, they would not be able to invest such a lot of money. Romania gets EUR 17 billion from SAFE. They would not have the money. So they need it and the terms and condition that you have, and you know exactly as a banker in this area, yes, are great for the [ count ]. Is it -- at the end of the day, it's debt, yes, but it's -- they do not feel it. And are the EUR 150 billion enough? I think, no, it's not enough because every country at the moment is looking for that. Even Italy is looking for that money now. And to say, okay, we want to combine it. The Lynx that we have, they want to finance via SAFE money and also the Panther. And I understand that. And -- but at the end of the day, if the European Union wants to give another package, a second package, there must be an agreement with governments who pay the bills. We say, okay, okay, I protect the European Union because as you know, the European Union has no money by themselves. The countries have to give the money. At the end of the day, it's a point if Germany says, okay, you can give more and I protect it in the back. I don't know if that works.

Just a quick follow-up, if I may. And you also said that 2030 is not the end of the road. Potentially, we could see further growth into beyond that, basically.

Yes. Absolutely. And the point is that maybe European Union has to do something in this area. But in 2030, NATO will be not 100% ready with all the things that NATO wants. And especially on the European side, they are not ready. And if I see the planning, especially from the German side, they are looking not for SAFE money. Germany is a little bit independent in this area. But German's plan -- the plan of Germany is going up to 2040. And the other European countries have this plan also, but they only can communicate if they have money backing. And the money backing at the moment is missing, and therefore, maybe SAFE 2 has to come.

I think I'm next. So it's Sebastian from BNP. Just quickly on M&A because you have in your EUR 50 billion sales target by 2030, also about EUR 5 billion from M&A. So if you could help us understand how well filled the pipeline is. And as you have also now said that you will put the Power Systems business as discontinued. Can you just share the latest developments in terms of interest and what gives you the confidence to really put it as discontinued and to deconsolidate at the end of the day?

Of interest rate?

Not the interest rate, but the interest by parties that are looking into the business, if you could just share the latest around Power Systems on the exit?

Yes. So we have 7 investors who are interested to buy the business. We have 3 at the moment where we continue. The rest is out. So we gave last week information to the guys who are out who didn't pay enough. That's very normal. What you do with the 3, we want to go -- to have a solution up to Christmas, end of the year. And if we have a solution, so it's binding offers. If we have a real solution, then we will have the final negotiation in Q1. And hopefully, in Q1 or Q2, we have a final solution and we can sell the business.

Pipeline?

The pipeline for M&A?

Because you put to targeted [indiscernible].

Yes. As you know, we always speak about M&A if we are very near to this area. This is always the same sentence that I'm telling you. And I think that's a fair thing. We -- what I can say is that we scan year-by-year 200 companies. And I think we did over the last 5, 6 years, a really great job on the M&A side. We always found a target which really fits to Rheinmetall and which fits into the ecosystem. I cannot say more about that thing, and we will inform you if we are nearby. And you see on the label side, how it works. So we started 3 months before signing that we are interested in some areas. We didn't tell the target. But at the end of the day, out of the breath, you can usually read it. But we are not so near at the moment with other M&A activities. So thank you very much because I have a second point and a second slot. And now I think Rene takes over and gives you an overview about all the operations. Thank you.

So good morning from my side, ladies and gentlemen. Thank you very much, Armin, for giving the outlook of what is ahead of us from a revenue point of view. And I would like to start my presentation with the last sentence on your slide, unfold the next chapter of growth. So to unfold the next chapter of growth, I think my goal for the next 30, 35 minutes is to tell you where are we in executing that goal. And I will not just focus on 2030. I would basically like to start to look shortly into the rear mirror. And if we look into the rear mirror, then we can see that Rheinmetall over the last 3 years has already more than doubled its revenue. And if we focus for the future on the defence revenue, then we have been able just in 2 years to double already the revenue just on the defence side. And I will go deeper into the different divisions to give you not just an outlook of what has been executed, but as I mean Papperger already mentioned, what we have been already in execution in terms of additional capacity increase so that we are able to deliver the products, which are ultimately are going to help us to generate the revenue. So I will focus mainly on 2026 forward, and I will try to give you in 2 steps, the outlook, how do we reach the 2027 goals, which is again a 2-year time span and what are we already executing so that we reach the target of roughly EUR 50 billion in 2030. So we are here in a brand-new facility, and I had the opportunity over yesterday to talk with some of you about what is actually possible in Germany and how were we able to pull it off. And there were 2 attributes in Armin Papperger's presentation, which I will as well refer to various times in my presentation. And that is an ecosystem and that is vertical integration. And if you look at the pictures in February -- end of February last year, the groundbreaking took place here with the German Chancellor. And I remember many discussions because the goal for us was to build up this facility where you walked through yesterday, the lab facility and the shell facility in 15 months. And I think, I mean it's fair to say many people said that's going to be impossible. That's something we are not able to achieve, particularly not in a country like Germany. Now 15 months later, we had the groundbreaking of -- not the groundbreaking, we had the opening ceremony of our location here. And to give you some figures which are beyond revenue, so we have established here 2 facilities with a size of 35,000 square meter production place. If we add the rocket artillery plant, which has roughly another 15,000 square meter, then we have been able to establish production space of 50,000 square meters here in Unterlüß. I think we can be proud that this is the most modern and largest artillery plant in the world. And we went a complete different route than what we have in other locations because you know that we produce already artillery in Spain. We produce artillery already in our location in South Africa. We decided here that we want to use the sheer size of the facility to follow different processes and different concepts. So automization right from the beginning, particularly driven by the higher labor costs we have in Germany compared to South Africa was the overall goal. And I'm glad that you had yesterday the possibility to walk through the facility and see that we have been in the process of executing this all. We are ramping up the production. And for next year, we are already expecting a substantial impact on our bottom line and top line by the revenue we produce here out of this facility. The good thing is the ecosystem we are having from a manufacturing point of view helps us to exchange with our existing production capabilities, as I mentioned, in South Africa as well as in Spain, so that we implement a network, a global network, which is constantly in the exchange of what we can do better. And I think this is as well unique. If you look at the competitor landscape, there aren't too many other Western manufacturers for artillery ammunition, which have a capacity globally, which goes up to over 1 million rounds by 2027. With this facility, we have been able to establish a blueprint and not just with this facility, but if we look in Spain, if we look in South Africa, where we produce slightly different rounds than what we will produce here, we have now a blueprint, which helps us to expand in Ukraine, in Lithuania and in other countries where we have signed the contracts to establish capacity. And since we were able to do this here with the strong support, as Armin Papperger mentioned earlier, of the government, and I think this is one of the key drivers you need in order to be able to execute in that short period of time, such a big industrialization project. You need the support of the governments. You need strong partners on the supplier side, and I will later elaborate what competence, what vertical integration we have as Rheinmetall, which helps us to really be able to pull something like that off in such a short period of time. One of the big growth drivers, as Armin Papperger said, is going to be the rocket motor plant. So this is not completed yet. But yesterday during the tour, I think you saw already that we are in the process of building that facility up. As I mentioned, roughly 15,000 square meter of production space. We will have 27 curing chambers. We will have 2 big mixers with a size of 2,500 liters. So if you imagine, they are double the size of what I am. We have here as well the benefit that we are in Spain in our location are currently establishing as well a mixer, which has the capacity of 1,000 liter. We have in South Africa already a production of rocket motors. So it's nothing which is completely new for us. It's nothing where we wouldn't understand from a production and manufacturing point of view how to pull that off. Pretty much all machines are ordered. The real estate and the production hall build is on its way. And we are on track that by next year, we will have the equipment established and we'll then be able to start to mix the first rocket motors. The rocket motor itself is a very important part. And in this lovely facility here, we will then be able, as you saw in the video, to introduce the additional manufacturing requirements to build up the complete rocket and be then able to sell up to 10,000 missiles per year. We had yesterday as well the opportunity to walk through our large caliber gun hall. And we have invested in the last 24 months substantially in new machines. So you saw there many machines which are brand new. In total, almost a dozen new machine centers, roughly EUR 15 million in investment was put into our capacity there. And we have been able to reach already more than double the amount of weapons we are able to build. Weapons is one important thing, but particularly in the Ukraine, we need to make sure that we are able to support with barrels. So if a barrel will need to be exchanged, we are already at 280 barrels, roughly 300 barrels capacity as of today. And the groundbreaking of a new large caliber gun hall took place at DSEI this year, where Armin Papperger, together with the Secretary of Defence, did the groundbreaking for our facility, which is in Telford. Why in Telford? Because we have there already a manufacturing facility for infantry fighting vehicles. So here, again, we try to use the infrastructure, the production network of Rheinmetall to make sure that experts are available and we don't have to start completely of scratch in a greenfield project. An additional topic I very often get asked is, so how do you cope with the growth in terms of supplier? So if I take just the steel we need in order to manufacture the large caliber guns here, then in the past, maybe 5, 6 years ago, our supplier base was rather limited. And it didn't need to be that we have multi-suppliers because if you produce 20, 30 guns per year, then you are fine with the capacity a single supplier is offering you. We have now already multi-suppliers just for our location here in Unterlüß. As soon as we start in the U.K., we will expand here as well the supply base so that we have then there a direct link, a direct supply of steel and whatever we need in order to be able to manufacture on-site large caliber guns. The big driver of future growth are the infantry fighting vehicles. So Armin mentioned that the 30, the 35-millimeter guns, but as well -- when we go into the Eurofighter, 27-millimeter guns and even for the Marder, the 20-millimeter guns. This is something where we see a huge demand to make sure that we are not just producing the vehicles, but that we are able to equip these vehicles with the respective guns and the ammunition. Same as the large caliber, we have started already, and I think that's as well an important message to pass on. We started to invest even before we had contracts. In many areas, we went ahead. We said we are going to invest in capacity because we believe that the customer is going to take the capacity from us. And we started in 2022. And by today, we have already capacity on the barrel side, which is more than double what we had 2 years ago. And we have just kicked off expansion -- further expansion program into our center in Oberndorf to come up to close to 1,000 barrels, which we are able to produce that per year. Essentially, if you take a 30-millimeter gun, if you take a 35-millimeter gun, which you saw yesterday on the Skyranger, we have here, again, a network where we make sure that the different production locations are exchanging processes that we continuously try to improve, reduce cycle times, put automization in. Some of the machines you saw in the large caliber gun hall, they are rather ancient if you want so. But everything we are going to put in new helps us to digitalize to connect the machines with each other and to apply continuous improvement to drive as well efficiency down. So all the guns, all the ammunition I've shown you at the end are not really worth too much if you do not have the propellant to make sure that you are able to shoot, for example, the artillery around 30, 40 or even more kilometers. And we kicked off as well in 2022, 2023, our first capacity increase project. It was called KBA 25 plus. And we have been able in our locations in Bavaria, Switzerland, in South Africa as well as in Spain. So here, again, the ecosystem of propellant and combustible cartridge cases, and we have established an additional capacity of 2,000 tonnes. So we have now a capacity of 7,500 tonnes. We have just released an investment project to boost at these locations the capacity even further to debottleneck so that by year-end of '27, we have already 12,000 tonnes of capacity. Vertical integration, if I take again that topic, we not just went ahead and increased the capacity in our locations, we did as well do execute strategic acquisitions. And the company Hagedorn, which on the defence side might have not been a very prominent one. The company Hagedorn helps us to increase our nitrocellulose production significantly. Up till now, they have produced civil-grade nitrocellulose. So we know what to do in order to bring it up to a military grade. And that military-grade nitrocellulose is going to be available for us by next year and helps us to eliminate a significant debottleneck. I would like here to just briefly address again supply. And I had yesterday at my table, significant discussions in terms of what are material threats to Rheinmetall. And the example I used yesterday are linters. So linters are a little cotton balls, if you want, so which predominantly are currently produced in China. So here, we took as well a strategic decision. We pumped up our inventory so that we have now for more than 3 years' linter in our stock. On top of it, we went ahead from the development side and try to find an alternative so that we are not just depending on cotton linters, but that we are going now as well to qualify wood linters. We are going with different countries who are producing cotton so that we are actively managing that potential risk to boost up inventory and on top of it, then find technical alternatives. I think you know Armin was quite busy over the last few weeks to sign additional contracts with Bulgaria, with Romania for additional capacity. And if we now look towards 2030 and the continuation of growth, then these additional facilities, which, again, are blueprints of what we are executing already from a manufacturing point of view in Germany, in Switzerland, in Spain as well as in South Africa. So these locations are then closing the gap till 2030 for 20,000 tonnes of propellant and the respective modular charges for the future. So how are we actually able to pull these things off? And ecosystem is, once again, from my point of view, the exact aspects where Rheinmetall has invested in the past, not just in an ecosystem from an engineering and a product point of view, but we have as well an ecosystem, which helps us to pull off projects much faster than other companies might be able to do that. How are we executing this? We have a plant engineering team. And here, you know as well that we have just recently acquired a company in South Africa, Resonant, which are the experts in chemical plants. So we have boosted up their resources and capabilities from the plant engineering side. From the industrial engineering side, I think here, we can fairly say that the benefit of having an auto business in the Rheinmetall Group has helped us to scale up production to something which is normal in the automotive side. So here, we were able to make sure that we get the colleagues with the expertise to support us on the industrial engineering and the automization time. And I don't know if that's something which is really present to you. We have a big department which is coping with real estate and not just real estate at its general terms. We have architects there. We have people who are calculating the statics and they are the ones who are having the blueprints of the plants we want to expand as well in the future. So vertical integration for us means not just on the product side, but as well on the expansion side, we are deeply integrated. We have blueprints for the different aspects, let it be a chemical plant, that it be a gun hall, let it be an artillery production plant, and I will show you later as well something about the vehicle side. So the vertical integration on the engineering side in combination with the know-how we have as well on the product side because as well on the product side, I think it's fair to say we are the most vertically integrated. If I use the example of artillery, then I think the only thing we really purchase on the shell is the steel. The rest, we are forming it, we are machining it, we are painting it, we are heat treating it. We are producing fuses. We are producing the explosives, and we are producing as well the whole value chain of the propellants. So the understanding of the product in combination with the vertical integration, plus governments giving us permissions helps us to be able to pull such projects off like you just know it, let's say, out of China. And we have proven that we are able to execute that and feel, therefore, confident that we will be able to execute that as well with the projects just acquired. And that helps us as well on the vehicle side to execute our growth. Coming to the vehicle side. So Armin mentioned as well earlier, Boxer. So what is the road we see to up to 1,000 Boxers per year. And here, again, coming or going back maybe 2 years, 2 years ago, we did not produce a single Boxer in the U.K. We did not produce a Boxer in Australia. We did not produce a Lynx in Hungary. So here as well, we established capacity. And this year is the first year where we are getting serial quantities or serious quantities out of these locations. We are in the process of building up new locations. Armin just said the contract in Italy with over 1,000 Lynx. So here, we know already how a blueprint, how a footprint for a manufacturing site would look like because we have just established the site in Hungary. And important is every time we do build up a new production capacity, the network makes sure that we apply afterwards a lessons learned. Because there are certain things at the end of a project where you, in retrospective, would say, I would do it differently, and we want to use this know-how then for all future projects so that we don't make the one or the other mistake twice. So our footprint today, I think I've mentioned that already. We have today in total, roughly 170,000 square meters of production locations or production space for infantry fighting vehicles. If we want to grow up to the 1,000-plus vehicles, and I think that's a very important message. All we need is roughly 20% to 25% more in production space than what we have today. And why is that? Because what we do today, and I use the example of our biggest infantry fighting vehicle production in Kassel, what we do there today is we have a combination of different products we are building there. We have service business. We have Büffel. We have Panzerhaubitze and we have as well the Boxer. So we are not at volumes which would allow us to switch to a manufacturing concept as we know it, for example, out of our plant in Vienna. And you see at the little video there in Vienna, which is our -- from the pure volume, biggest manufacturing site with 2,400 vehicles we are producing there per year. We have established in-line manufacturing process with lean aspects, which we are now implementing as well in Kassel. So we are a little bit compared to the ammunition side, we are a little bit more at the start of executing this. But the general concept for Kassel will be focus on the Boxer, put there a manufacturing concept in place together with the colleagues out of the network where the blueprint in Vienna is there, apply automization concepts. Here for me, important to mention as well, we will not end up in something similar like you would see at Volkswagen because we are producing not millions of vehicles, we produce hundreds and thousands of vehicles. But I will show you later as well some concrete processes, which we are already executing to automize. So we're going from producing a whole bunch of different vehicles in one location to focus much, much more to get processes in line to have production footprint, which goes step by step, [ tucked ]. And therefore, in Kassel, we will grow up to over 500 Boxer per year production capacity. Automizing. So I think it's easy to understand when you just walk over into the other hall and you see what we do here on the artillery side. So how do we address the whole topic of increased volume and the opportunity to decrease our manufacturing cost on the vehicle side? So you saw yesterday already the first robots at the cabin build, which we have already in production. We are automizing the measurements. We will have a paint shop, which is partial automized. We have logistic concepts where today, people are moving much of the material from A to B, which afterwards, we are going to have little robots driving from A to B. We are taking subcomponents out of the manufacturing, have them assembled in different stations where optimization can take place so that we just take modules and assemble them into the vehicle to become much more efficient. And one of the big topics we are addressing, and this is as well something on the naval side, where we see already a crossover to what we need to do is welding. You saw at the beginning, if you have low-volume production, then you have an individual who is taking the bowls, who is fixing them, who is welding them, and that was all good in the past. So what we do now is we not just go into 2-dimensional weldings, we go into 3-dimensional weldings, and we do this with all different materials. We do this with aluminum. We do this with armored steel, and we are executing this now in all the locations where we do welding. Shifting from the vehicle side now to the whole topic of air defence. So how are we managing to ensure that the growth of the air defence system is going to be executed? We have invested as well substantially in our air defence production centers in Switzerland as well as in Italy. And the air defence systems, you need for sure, a gun. So we have now put a substantial increase of machine centers similar to what I've showed you already in Oberndorf into Zurich as well as Rome, where our production locations are. And we have established there a lean manufacturing concept where we assemble turrets. And we have the capacity in Switzerland for 140 turrets to assemble by the beginning of next year. We have already as well the same assembly line. So it's the same concept. It's again a blueprint. It's a network which we have put in, in Italy. And as Armin mentioned earlier, we are in the process in our today civil plant in Neuss to put there as well, again, a blueprint, the exact same processes for air defence turret production into Germany. So that we come up by 2027 already to have a capacity of over 400 units per year. How long would it take if we want to increase the capacity here? We would need additional machining capacity, which we could. And today, it's not that many machining companies are fully utilized, which we could get partially as well externally. And the assembly and the manufacturing process is something where we will be able to establish additional capacity in a time horizon of 6 to 9 months. So I think the air defence, the turret production itself is a perfect example of how quick we can be able to establish capacity here. Going into Italy, going into Germany, here again, from a supplier point of view, we are talking all the sudden about volumes, which are much, much higher than what we ever had. So we are diversifying our supply base. We are categorizing our suppliers into A, B and C suppliers based on technical criticality. Some of the very critical stuff we are doing basically as well in-house. So here, again, vertical integration rather high. And that is the strategy we are executing to ensure that we will not struggle with the ramp-up on the supplier side. So we saw yesterday the demonstration of the radar as well of the HERO. So both of these products you see here on the slide. We have already a production line in Italy ready. But if I look again at the vertical integration of a radar, Rheinmetall knows how to produce explosive. We know how to produce a warhead. So we have that already in-house. We know how to produce electric motors because we have already a plant which is producing over 10 million electrical motors per year. We have the capability to design and to manufacture a flight vehicle like you have seen here already in our location in Italy. Capacity today, as you can see there, over -- or almost 40 per day. Again, if we want to increase that, we will be able to do that again in a time span of 6 to 9 months by copying what we do in Italy, using the blueprint, using the vertical integration to execute that in different locations. So I've mentioned already quite a lot about the resilience of our supply chain. The growth clearly allows us now to diversify much, much more than we were able to do that 5, 6 years ago. And the interest of the supply base to work together with Rheinmetall to participate in the growth is huge. We get a lot, a lot of interest. We get as well a lot of interest from companies who were in the past working in the automotive industry. So we are -- if you also benefiting from the downturn there. These companies are, in general, used to produce mass production. They understand quality systems much, much different than it was maybe common in the defence industries. And that helps us to have a resilient and a strong supply base. And it helps us as well to be competitive in terms of pricing because it's always much more fun to have alternatives when you go out and negotiate prices than to just depend on a single source. So the question I got asked the most, particularly after Armin Papperger is presenting the numbers, the revenue numbers, and that was yesterday as well, the discussion. It was -- the question I got asked was, do you feel that you will be able with your team to manage that growth? Do you feel confident? And I have to say, yes, I feel totally confident because I do not see any real struggle we would have that we are not able to manage that growth. Does that mean that everything goes without any setback, everything goes perfect? No. But in no industry, that is the case. But with the blueprint we have in place, with the network we have in place, with the experience we have in place, I am absolutely confident that we are able to manage the growth and that we are able -- and I hope I was able to give you already in all the different divisions, the measures we are executing and we have executed. And therefore, I feel confident that we will be able to manage that. That brings me to the end of my presentation. So what are the key takeaways I want to leave you with? I hope I was able to demonstrate to you that the major capacity increases in all different areas are either executed or they are in execution so that the 2027 as well as the 2030 growth is not just fantasy, but backed up already with the required capacities. We have the opportunity, and that's something we are executing now. More of the same was what Armin Papperger said earlier, more of the same allows then to go into completely different manufacturing concepts compared to having hundreds of different varieties. So that allows us to drive automization and supplier diversification, the deep vertical integration and the know-how of the product, of the processes allows us together with the network. Together with having on the industrialization time, this experience to execute projects in record time, which we need to ensure that the growth is becoming reality. And we are as well executing on our risk product diversification, which ultimately then with the right supply base ensures that the growth becomes reality. So that brings me to the end of my presentation. Thank you very much.

So the coffee is now a little bit colder that we can speed up the process here. We have coffee and some snacks in the back. I'm really sorry. Yes. Any questions?

[indiscernible] from [ Alpha Value ]. So you seem very confident and I would say, prepared. But as you nearly aims to quintuple revenue by 2030, scaling ammunition, air defence, naval simultaneously, what do you see as the most critical execution challenges? And quickly on automatization, to what extent automatization will come from retrofitting legacy facility versus new production facilities? And how should we think about the impact on CapEx timing and margins of this automatization process?

Okay. So maybe I start with the CapEx. And I think -- I mean Papperger mentioned it already, a huge amount of CapEx comes with the chemical plants, and it's much, much less when we go towards the vehicle side. Legacy, you saw yesterday that we are able to mix legacy equipment with brand-new equipment because when you walk through the large caliber gun hall, then we still have a lot of equipment, which might be 10, 15 or even 20 years old, but it still does a job. So we're not just going ahead then and we are trying to scrap it. We are continuing to use it because it does a great job. And that ultimately means as well that we are very cautious with the investments we are basically doing. So what are the biggest challenges we are having? I tried to point that out. I think we are working actively in making sure that we have the workforce in place that we have as well the material which we see today, critical that we have them in place. We did acquisitions. So the capabilities are going to be something which are available to us. So Resonant is one of the example. Hagedorn with the nitrocellulose is another one. So therefore, I think we have many things addressed, and we will see if there are any other challenges are going to thrown at us in the upcoming years, but that's how we are addressing all these things.

Christoph Laskawi from Deutsche Bank. One question just on -- you elaborated on finding alternatives to linters. You highlighted rare earth as well, working to find alternatives or even exclude them from the product. At what point can you be 100% European product? Or is that impossible with all the input factors? Is that a 3- to 5-year time horizon or...

I think that at the end, depends as well on what product we are talking about. If I take the linters, so the goal is really in a time span of 3 to 5 years because we have the inventory for 3 years to, a, have alternatives ramped up. So we are in discussions, for example, with Turkey because they are producing cotton with the United States. So we have already alternatives, which we are starting to mix in. On top of it, I mentioned yesterday evening already that we take now the wood linters to mix that as well in. But that is the process we are executing it.

Mike Raab, Kepler Cheuvreux. Considering your ammunition production capacities, what stocking level by NATO does it take into account? 30 days or 60 days at a current level?

Our capacity?

We are prepared for 30 or 60 days stock keeping by NATO forces.

It's 30 days as of now. So we know if NATO with the non-U.S. gun systems wants to stock up to 30 days, then roughly 10 million to 12 million rounds are required to basically put into stock.

Does that mean on the reverse, if the new requirement was 60 days, you would have to invest additional CapEx?

I think if we would get the orders, then we would invest into additional capacity. But I think the capacity we have right now, let's get it ramped up and then we see what NATO is going to decide in order to increase the stock levels.

It's Sven from UBS. It's just on how you prepare yourself for redundancy and making maybe the factories more autonomous against asymmetric threats like power failure, sabotage. I mean we all have to take these things into account that they could happen. Do you plan to make the plants more autonomous? Because I think here, you're connected to the power grid, the usual power grid. I mean do you plan this also for the coming years?

Yes, for sure. We have -- we are very thoroughly assessing what threats would have an impact on our production locations. And then we prepare accordingly to backup solutions or for backup solutions. But that's nothing we would share in public because then we would have to immediately think about the next backup solution. So -- but that's something we do location by location.

Chloe Lemarie from Jefferies. I have first a clarification on Slide 47. When you put your 2x revenue from '25 to '27, is that on the base of '25, including the civil business? Or is that excluding the civil business? And my second question is actually on the defence electronics supply chain. We've seen obviously quite a lot of the peers having to move in-house some circuit printing capacity. Are you also doing this? Do you see any kind of potential risks to your sourcing in that area? And how do you reply to that?

Okay. So it's excluding the civil business. And we have already capacity for PCBAs for the circuit printing. But I would like to take the question as well because not too long ago, there was a lot of discussion in terms of what happens if there is a shortage. And if you look at the biggest vehicle manufacturing plant we have, it's 2,400 vehicles. So if I take now, for example, Volkswagen, they produce roughly 8 million, 9 million vehicles per year. So the 2,400 is roughly 2 hours of the production capacity of Volkswagen. So if we then need maybe a few hundred PCBs from one of our suppliers, then due to the fact that what we produce maybe has a much higher national interest than getting 200 or 300 more Volkswagen out is something where we get as well from the supply base preferred treatment to get maybe critical components.

Sam Burgess, Goldman Sachs. I think maybe the skeptics would say it's -- you're dealing with governments and things are never quick and there's always impediments. Maybe you could just talk to how you have managed to build a plant in such a small amount of time and the kind of special accommodation maybe you're getting at the moment and the support from government and some specifics around that. So we can help to understand why in this instance, government will be moving so quickly.

So if I take the example of the plant here in Unterlüß, as a matter of fact, when the groundbreaking took place or when you saw the picture with the German Chancellor, we had already an arrangement with the local body, with the regional body, with the state body as well as with the Chancellor. And that allowed us, as a matter of fact, at the next day to start already with our project. So we had the full support from all of that different players on the legal side, on the governmental side. And we got, therefore, in a record time, the required licenses, the required permits to move on. Then we had suppliers which were highly interested and highly motivated to make that project of their highest interest. I gave you yesterday already an example. If we would call Deckel Maho Gildemeister, so the manufacturer of machine centers. So I have the number of Mr. Mori himself. And if we say we need a machine, then he is ensuring that we get the machine before anybody else would get it. And that combination of everything allows to move at that speed.

Adrien from Bernstein. Can I follow up on your presentation about Weapon and Ammunition? Clearly, there's a lot going on with utilization rates and everything. You have a target to increase margins -- EBIT margins by 2 points by 2030 in the division. Does that include an assumption that prices are coming down? And I guess my question is on a net cost basis, where do you think margins could go with higher utilization rates, vertical integration? Yes.

Yes. So there is a pressure to reduce as well prices. We are the biggest, if you want to -- artillery manufacturer in the world that allows us as well to apply economy of scale. Economy of scales, we have here in the manufacturing process, but as well in terms of the material costs. And that's what we apply at the end of the day and is the road map for the profitability we have shown earlier on the chart.

So if there are no further questions, I then would suggest that we move to the back of the plant and have a little snack and a coffee to refresh before we then go into the final presentation of the CFO and the closing remarks of Mr. Papperger. [Break]

So I would kindly ask everybody to take a seat. We are now getting ready for the second round of presentations. And we will start with some outlook on the financials by the CFO, Klaus Neumann. Klaus?

So also a very warm welcome from my side to our Capital Markets Day 2025. In my presentation, I will not so much talk about operations and basically the capital development but focus on some of the issues that are missing to get a full picture of our financial situation. So let me start with a brief look at our Q3 numbers for the 9 months up to September 2025. Those numbers as of today still includes the civil business. As Armin mentioned, towards the end of this year, when we decide on the future of the civil business, we will take the civil business out of the top line and also out of the operating result numbers. But as of today, those are the numbers for the whole group. We increased sales by 20% to EUR 7.5 billion in 2025. We reached an operating margin of 11.1%, so almost the level of 2024, and we increased our earnings per share to EUR 8.34 per share. We talked about the development in the different divisions, and we explained how this will develop and some words on the non-divisional side and how this impacts the overall picture. We know that we will have a more integrated working together as part of the downward integration and the supply chains that we have in-house. So the consolidation line will also grow over time to roughly 6% of total sales, but that will be of roughly EUR 50 billion in 2030. And we will also have an opposite effect on the operating results, consolidation impact. At the moment, the operating result and the consolidation of other businesses is impacted strongly by our IT transformation, as we mentioned in several occasions, and we have some impact from group-wide R&D, both impacts will diminish over time. So we expect that the impact from consolidation on operating results will be roughly 1% of operating results in 2030. So as at the moment, in significant impact on our profitability, we expect it to be a really small effect going forward in those numbers. And as you know, in our operating result, it's EBIT adjusted for PPA impacts and other special impacts, just to give you an idea where we are at the moment with our PPA, and all those numbers is mainly driven by our acquisition of Expal in 2023 and of the acquisition of Loc Performance last year. Those numbers are driving these numbers. They will diminish going forward and will we have an impact in 2026 again through the acquisition of our -- the naval business. As of today, we don't really know how much it will be. We have a rough estimate but will increase again in the coming years, and we will update you about these numbers once we have completed the acquisition. As Armin mentioned, we expect to do so early in 2026. Some words on the minority impact. As you know, we have an impact on EBIT, on the profitability for our investors on the minorities. We expect that in the short term, the profitability of our wholly owned subsidiaries will outperform profitability of our joint ventures. But as we are setting up new joint ventures, Armin mentioned several in terms of satellites, in terms of services and digitization but also in terms of the joint ventures for the production of powder and propellants. We will expect that minorities again will have an impact and growth impact going forward towards 2030. At the moment, it's very difficult to predict exactly how this will turn out. But roughly, it will be in line with our profitability growth. Armin mentioned that we have a cash conversion rate target of 50% or above 50% for 2030. And one of the key drivers is basically what are we doing with the cash and how we are managing by -- our liquidity. One big focus, and I will walk a bit more later on is CapEx. We need to invest in the increase of our capacities, and we need to invest also in new facilities also to increase our potential and make the growth on the sales side possible. One other factor, and that's also something we talked about several times is our working capital at the moment is binding lots of additional cash basically to ensure that going forward, we can increase sales, we increase production. And one factor that Rene mentioned is that we are in a transition, especially in the vehicle business from a more -- from kind of local manufacturing concept to a more production line concept. And once we have converted to this new concept, we expect that working capital levels for the vehicle business will go down in the ratio of sales. And in order to finance this whole transition, we need advanced payments. And that is the key driver to make sure that we have enough funds available to make all of this possible. And then the other thing that will kind of -- we need to manage going forward is the demand of some of our suppliers to also increase their capacity. We have the suppliers that have enough capacity. They don't need initial investment, but for some specialized or some production, we need also to support our suppliers to make growth happen. In addition, another area where we want to invest is M&A. We have invested strongly in the last 2 years. We are in the process of acquiring the naval business. And all these businesses contribute in the short term roughly EUR 1 billion of sales per year, and this is also what we anticipate going forward. This is what we're aiming for so -- on a more or less annual basis to add about EUR 1 billion of sales through acquisition. And if you look at the target of EUR 50 billion in 2030, that is some contribution, but it's not the driver for our growth. This dividend is now another source where we want to basically spend our money, we want to stay with the level of payout ratio that we have had over the last years, a stable 35% to 40% of our net income before PPA. So it's basically looking at the operating result as a kind of the benchmark for the determination of our payout. And based on EUR 8.10 per share for 2024, we expect to continue to increase dividends going forward in line with our profitability growth. As mentioned on other occasion, share buybacks would be the last option, if basically, based on our liquidity profile, we have additional funds available that we cannot use for focused investment or M&A and would be available in excess of dividends that we have to pay. CapEx, as I mentioned, will be a major area of investment in the coming years in addition to what we've already done in 2024 and what we're currently doing in 2025. As mentioned, the investment, especially in energetics plants requires significant amount of cash. We mentioned in our press statement that the facility in Bulgaria will cost about EUR 1 billion. The facility in Romania, about EUR 0.5 billion. We need to invest in higher degree of automization. So going forward, for '26 and '27, we anticipate a significant level or increase of CapEx in absolute terms. But we are making sure that we are not the only people investing it. We ask our joint venture partners, especially on the investment for the propulsion and energetics plants to support the investment in our facilities. And we anticipate, based on the improvements that we have made that will make up about 5% to -- or 4% of the total sales will go into CapEx from funds coming from our partners. So overall, if you deduct this from the sales -- from the CapEx numbers, we anticipate roughly 10% of sales of CapEx in the years '26 and '27. After that, we anticipate a decrease in investment and target a CapEx level of around 5% as an ongoing basis of sales. Especially the last -- next 2, 3 years are strongly driven by growth and additional CapEx in addition to our capacities. Working capital, another area where we really buy a lot of funds. As you have seen in our numbers, we increased working capital or inventory around to almost EUR 1 billion in the first 9 months this year. That is always driven by the need to make sure that we have enough inventory available to support the growth and also to hedge against the risk of disruption in the supply chain. Rene already mentored that we have stock for cotton linters for 3 years on stock. We have some additional stock in the area of electronics, especially where there are rare earth involved, and we are looking at other areas to just make sure that we have enough stock available to grow. Going forward, at the moment, the production will also turn into a more industrialized concept. In ammunition, we already have it. But in terms of the vehicles, we are in kind of a transition here. Inventory levels in relation to sales will decrease and then support basically the cash flow target that we have for 2030 of above 50%. One important part where the money will come from is the area of down payments. We're aiming at 20% to 30% for large contracts of prepayments, and we are working hard and negotiating hard with our customers to make this possible. It is very difficult to predict going forward because it really depends on the timing on the signature of the contract and the award of the contracts as we explained at the conference for the Q3 results. There is some delay at the moment, but we expect that the award of contracts will strongly increase and accelerate in the coming months towards the end of the year and the first half 2026. One other factor in the working capital management area is suppliers. As mentioned, we need to manage this carefully with our suppliers. We need to make sure that they are stable and adequately financed to support us in our growth story. For M&A, I mentioned that we want to invest in additional companies that are anticipated to contribute about EUR 1 billion of sales on an annual basis. And we are looking at entities that complement the portfolio that we already have and diversify also our regional presentation and access us to new technologies and enable us to grow in some certain faster or access new markets. One area, just in part of the financial housekeeping. So our hedging strategy as we are strongly based in Europe, a lot of the growth at the moment is in Europe and also the production is strongly based in Europe. Currency hedging is not such a big issue for us at the moment. Now we have some -- we hedged the resulting transactional risk that you have, and we are moving to looking a little bit more closely at translational risks. We use FX contracts that are relatively straightforward. So we are relatively stable. It is, at the moment, not a big area of concern for Rheinmetall because of the way our currency flows are arranged. Commodity hedging is also under control. We have pricing escalations for those areas where hedging is possible. So we are matching by the purchase price of some raw materials with our selling price. With the disposal of our anticipated -- disposal of our Power Systems business, we anticipate that hedging for commodities will decrease. So that is at the moment, not a big area of concern. We talked about -- a lot about growth, and I want to give you a little bit of context of where Rheinmetall is standing at the moment in comparison to our peers in the industry. When you look at our CAGR for operating profit, in relation to our sales CAGR from 2025 to 2030, we strongly outperform all our peers, with the exception of one technology company in the U.S. But that just demonstrates that we are really well positioned and are really working hard to increase our sales line, while also increasing strongly our operating profit with a strong growth also on margins. Now we looked at all the different segments. And just to summarize again the situation for the group. Our target for 2030 is about EUR 50 billion in sales at an operating margin of above 20%. We are at the moment in the defense business around 18% already. But given all the different drivers in the different industries on the market, on the cost side, we anticipate that we will be able to increase sales beyond 20% in 2030. And our cash conversion rate target is 50% over a running 3-year average. Below, you see the contributions of the different divisions. And with a very strong margin in weapons and ammunition, all the other divisions as well will contribute more than 13% gross margin to our overall profitability, which is a very strong performance given what -- where we currently are for some of the businesses, but also in comparison to our peers or other competitors in the industry. And that is also a result of our strategy to downward integrate and basically to create an ecosystem in the way we produce our products and access the market. So from my point, just to summarize, our new guidance targets confirm our commitment to long-term value creation. We have an industry-leading sales and profitability growth. And importantly as well, our strong balance sheet at the moment allows us to basically finance this growth and also leaves room for additional complementary M&A going forward to reach the target of EUR 50 billion by 2030. So these are my final comments. And thank you very much. If there are any questions, I'm happy to answer them.

Sam Burgess, Goldman Sachs. Just focusing in on the EUR 50 billion and the contribution from M&A. When I take the upper end of the individual segment guides, I get to EUR 50 billion irrespective. You talked about EUR 1 billion annual contribution from M&A. So is this outside of the NVL acquisition? And is there upside to the EUR 50 billion, if I take the top end? Or are you baking those in?

No, if you add all the divisions, you are right, but there is a consolidation. So basically, there is some reduction when you put all the divisions together through the integration and the collaboration between the divisions. So the additional revenue is not fully complementary to the EUR 50 billion. It's part of this estimate or target for 2030. And we don't know whether it will be EUR 1 billion exactly every year or will be EUR 3 billion in total for the next 4 to 5 years.

It's Afonso Osorio from Barclays. Just going back to the Slide 78 on your margin summary and delving deep into that weapon and ammunition margin for 2030. Is that -- 29% to 31%, is that the new normal? How do you see the margin profile of this division going beyond 2030?

Yes. So we are already almost at 30% at the moment in that business. And yes, as Rene explained earlier, all the different aspects together, the pressure to some extent on pricing, but also the cost benefit through automization and basically increased scale will contribute to achieving overall profitability of 29% to 31%. So in a way, you could say that based on the current pricing levels, we share some of the benefit from automization and cost optimization with our customers.

So you feel comfortable protecting that margin beyond 2030?

Yes.

Thanks very much for your transparent presentation and for all of the numbers that you gave us. In terms of integrating or swallowing and integrating larger acquisitions, we all know that they don't come in slices of EUR 1 billion to EUR 2 billion year-over-year. Would you then be -- or would you consider to give us milestones to integrate a bigger acquisition in terms of, let's say, return on invested capital going forward? That's question number one. Question number 2, if I may. What's your stance on potentially financing suppliers?

Yes. On M&A, yes, you're absolutely right. There are a limited number of 1 billion companies that we could acquire. It's meant to be a guide of the size and the scope that we are aiming for. It's roughly in line what basically the contribution was or is from Expal, Loc and as you know, naval would be somewhat higher. So it's an average number. In terms of the return on investment, I think our past performance on acquisition shows that we are -- we achieved very good return on investment. And that is not just by expanding the business that we acquire, but the benefit comes from the integration and the interaction with the business we already have. So that's question number one. And the second question, sorry?

What's your stance on potentially financing your suppliers?

Yes, we don't like giving suppliers money, yes. It's -- first of all, we want to keep it for ourselves and invest it in -- where we need it and not use it for prepayment. But in terms of making sure to have a stable supply chain and to ensure that they also can grow as quickly as possible and to the extent that we need, we are prepared to do so. We are also looking at options where basically the supplier might be financed externally, but the agreement that the supplier may have with us is basically the additional guarantee for the financing party to support the supplier. So we are looking at all the different options. But we are looking carefully at prepayments. We're not just giving it away because we have managed to negotiate a prepayment with our customer.

George Mcwhirter from Berenberg. Two questions, please. Firstly, on revenue. Can you just give us an idea of what share of revenue you expect Germany and Ukraine to account for in 2030? And the second question is on digitization. Can you just give us an idea of some of the big ticket orders you expect between now and 2030 to get to the EUR 8 billion to EUR 10 billion?

In terms of sales in 2030, so Germany will be a big contributor to our sales line, given the numbers that Germany is able to expand. I'm not entirely sure, but I would -- because we -- for 2030, we have not planned it exactly. We have big tickets. So it's substantiated by planning. But not all of the things from Germany might come. Some others might come from other countries or vice versa. So it's roughly, I would say 50% in 2030. And in terms of the big tickets for digitization, we already have big contracts in place with TaWAN, which has already fixed order of roughly EUR 1 billion, but a commitment for up to EUR 10 billion. And there were other areas to substitute it. But for what exactly it is, I think Armin is much better placed to elaborate it for 2030 than I am. And I think we explained quite in detail what the strategy is in the Digital division.

Joe Orchard from Rothschild & Co Redburn. What needs to happen for you to change your stance regarding share buybacks? What sort of time line might those be a more appealing way of returning capital to shareholders?

There are 2 elements. The first thing would be -- I would need much more stable situation than at the moment because at the moment, it's extremely dynamic. And it's driven by large order intake and the need to finance growth. So in the near term, I don't see it as an option that we will look into closely. It might, going forward, change. So that would be beyond 2030 from my current assessment.

It's Sven again from UBS. I just had a follow-up question on 2026 because Mr. Papperger said that the 25% growth also applies to '26. But now next year, you have almost 20% contribution from NVL. So I was just wondering if you also feel confident to grow 25% organically.

Definitely. Yes. So we -- I joined Rheinmetall in -- yes, 13 years ago, 2012. At that time, Rheinmetall was doing EUR 2 billion in defense business. So we have a track record of growth in the defense business that gives us the confidence that we can grow somewhat faster going forward. And as Rene showed, we have accelerated our growth path in recent years, and we are prepared to further grow even faster in the coming years.

But specifically also in '26?

Yes.

Sebastian again from BNP. Sitting here to your left. I waved my head. Just quickly on the EBIT margin trajectory and especially when squaring that with the CapEx step-up, the EUR 8 billion or more than EUR 8 billion that you mentioned over the next 5 years. How should we think about the D&A phasing? So how should we think then with that also about the EBIT margin? Should we expect really every year an increase? Or might there even be a year like '26, where this is a bit more front-loaded? If you could just help us on that front. And the other question I have is around free cash flow, and I appreciate that the uncertainty to time the down payment received is difficult at this juncture, but you are currently forecasting more than a 50% cash conversion by 2030. And my question is simply, do you have also a guide for us what the sort of average cash conversion might be through 2030?

Yes. In terms of CapEx and the impact on amortization and depreciation, yes, the large part of this investment will go into energetic plants and chemical plants. They will take 2 to 3 years to set up. So amortization and depreciation will only start in -- towards the end of '27 or in 2028. And also, these are long-term assets that we are setting up. So the impact will not be like a PPA for -- that you have a very strong increase and jump once you started, it will be more gradual increase towards the [Technical Difficulty] from 2027 onwards. The other -- in terms of margin, can you just repeat the question? Sorry.

The question on the margin was just if we really have sort of a step-by-step every year improvement, but from your earlier answer, I would take the answer is yes because of this back-end-loaded pattern of the D&A. And the other question was on the free cash flow conversion from operating profit as a sort of average eventually over the 5 years period.

Yes. We have given the 50% -- the cash conversion rate for -- on average for the target in 2030. Last year, we had a very -- in 2024, we had a very strong cash conversion rate. As you know, the first 9 months this year were not yet as -- not that strong. We're working on getting -- achieving 40% for 2025, primarily through prepayments. And the next 2 years will really depend on the pattern of what kind of prepayments we can negotiate. I don't want to give a specific guidance for 2026 because that we will do in March next year. But we are working hard so that it's not -- yes, that we still will be positive in the next years, but not necessarily at the same level as plus 50% given the investment, but it might be better. It really depends on the timing and on the lots of factors that we are at the moment, not fully in control of.

Yes, Marie-Thérèse Grübner from Cantor Fitzgerald. It has to do with M&A. So when you are entering bidding processes for your targets, are you oftentimes the only game in town, do you compete against any other European players or is Germany [Foreign Language] for you in a way, that would be the most likely winner?

It's different acquisitions. Some of the acquisitions were done in very close contest with -- or negotiation with our targets. It's also the case with some other negotiations. But as you know, the -- for [Technical Difficulty] and overall, we presented the best prospect for the business and also for -- yes, from overall German industry strategy perspective. It's not a given that we will get everything that we would like to acquire.

Conor Dwyer from Citibank. A very quick question on the CapEx ramp up. It's quite helpful over the next few years, but I think it excludes IFRS 16. But I'm just wondering, basically, on that, how substantial basically right-of-use asset financing will be in that.

It's not -- yes, we looked at the cash impact from it, there is an IFRS 16 impact, but that won't be substantial.

It's Stefan from [ Baden-Wurttemberg ]. You have quantified your 2030 operating margin target at a group level and then individual ones. What makes you confident that your one customer will allow you to make such solid margins? And can you quantify a little bit what's in it for them? So how is it advantageous for them as you scale? How will their prices go down?

Yes. For some of the products and especially the vehicle business and I mean, Rene mentioned that Boxer will be one of the big products going forward. We do get the same price as our competitor. It goes through a joint venture with KNDS. So it's not that we are getting different prices than our competitors. And that's also the case for some of the other products, especially on ammunition, we are getting similar prices to other producers of similar products. Sometimes we are even cheaper. But because of our scale and all the vertical integration, we are able to basically attract higher margins. And that is also what is important for the customer. He is looking not at margins. In pricing law, I know that there are some rules on margins. But the key focus is that they get good value for money. And based on our product portfolio and our pricing, we are convinced that we are doing exactly that. We give our customer good value for money. And that's not going to change to 2030.

Saima Hussain from AlphaValue. So I have 2 questions. So on CapEx. So NATO-driven demand is expected to run through 2035. So is 2027, genuinely, the last CapEx peak or simply the last year where you have this visibility? And since most of your growth relies on German programs and on prepayments, will -- so how confident are you that this prepayment will materialize on time in terms of cash and in terms of revenue as well?

Yes. In terms of 2027, the CapEx target and the profile, yes, it's true that the programs will run longer, yes. But we are now building the capacity to be able to produce the quantities that are required to 2035 or as Armin mentioned to 2040. This is basically an initial push to get basically the whole system to a totally new level. So as of today, we don't anticipate that beyond 2027 there will be another peak or anything. We really see it as now kind of a push to bring the whole industry and in our case, Rheinmetall to a new level. But then the revenues and the production will come and increase to 2030. And you have a question -- second question?

Yes. I was wondering, since most of the growth relies in government programs like Germany programs, and we've already seen some timing slippage, how much timing risk is implicitly embedded in your guidance in terms of revenues, but also in terms of cash conversion on prepayments?

The prepay -- our sales targets are independent on the profile of our prepayments. We -- as we have shown, we need funds to basically invest in the growth and to make sure that the growth is going to happen. We're working hard with the customer to negotiate appropriate and adequate payments terms so that the customer is helping us to fund this growth. From our discussions, we know that the customer is fully aware of our -- of the situation and has also shown in the past that he is willing to support us. The examples for the facilities in Bulgaria and Romania show that, that is also done on a large scale, not necessarily through prepayments, but also through capital injections. We are very confident that we will manage. But to get the timing of large payments coming from inflows from prepayments fully synchronized with large out payments for investments that will be the challenge. But that's what we also say we get an average over time to -- because we think it will balance out over time.

One final question on cash conversion, if I may. At some point in the mid-2030s or towards late 2030s when growth is slowing potentially below the 20% level. What do you think the cash conversion this business can generate would look like? Closer to 70%? Or any estimation you could give?

Yes, 70% is what you can achieve in a stable mode if there are no big additional investments. We anticipate that it will -- once growth and basically investment into growth will reduce that we will get to that number. But we anticipate -- we plan to grow quite fast until 2030 at least. So it will be a challenge to achieve it earlier on a consistent basis. We achieved it more than 70% in 2024. But it will be a challenge to get there consistently in a strong growth phase. Thank you very much. And I hand over to Armin for some closing comments.

Thank you, Klaus. And first of all, I want to say thank you very much, and we are very grateful that all of you are here, that you take your time and this big audience of 75 investors and analysts, yes, it's a great honor for us to have you here, and thank you very much to all of you. The second point is I want to say thank you very much also to the marketing team. All of that, what we are doing here is an internal thing, and the people prepare it and they want to show you that Rheinmetall is innovative, that we have a huge product portfolio and that we are able to reach the targets. Another thing, and I want to comment this also, I'm very happy to have colleagues who are really focused on that, what they are doing. And maybe you have seen this today. Klaus is very deep inside the figures he's taking care about that and Rene is unbelievable at the moment, what he's doing on the operations side. Without these colleagues and Vera is missing here because she is for -- responsible for HR. She's making the housekeeping in Dusseldorf at the moment, but she takes care about that, and we have a great team about that. I'm very grateful also about that. And last and not least, I think it's very rare that also the Chief of the Supervisory Board is here, Ulrich Grillo. And Ulrich speaks most days about that because he said, it's very important to also to have contact to investors and to analysts. And therefore, thank you very much to my colleagues and to the Chief of the Supervisory Board. So as discussed before and to bring everything into a nutshell, and we were traditionally a player of land systems. And maybe you have seen yesterday and you see also today that we changed the company. We changed the company absolutely in a space, air, sea and land systems house. It's driven at the moment still from the land side. So it's the biggest part. But over the next 5, 6 years, we will bring Rheinmetall to be a digital system house. And the digital system house, what you see here, the digitalization at the end of the day, this is the key where we want to go in. And if you see what happens on [indiscernible], and this is a discussion also that we had yesterday. There are rumors also about what happens about the F126, yes. Is there a stop now? What's going on, et cetera, et cetera? I'm absolutely not afraid. It's a need. This frigate is a need for the German Navy. The point what the government is doing at the moment is to have an interim solution, maybe to buy more frigates, and they speak about the MEKO class, if there is a delay, if there is a longer delay. So I see no risk in this area. As we said before, there is an investment on the naval side of more than EUR 80 billion in Germany over the next 10 years. If we are able to pick up only 30%. It's up -- it's nearly EUR 25 billion of that. But at the end of the day, I think it's possible to pick up more. On the air side. What we have here on -- there are huge opportunities because if you see the unmanned planes that are coming up, we have the factory. Weeze is the factory where we handle at the moment, U.S. data. We have terabyte of secret data from the U.S. government on the F-35. We are the only one who handle these data about that because we are the only producer of fuselage outside the United States of America. And -- so therefore, we see a huge opportunity. And in space, you will see the growth immediately. You will see the growth which is -- which will come and the order intake, which will come this year. So again, huge opportunities from our side. Segment naval and this segment of naval which will come, still not the closing is there, as you know, this EUR 5 billion, what is behind that? These are the programs that Germany is investing in these areas. And so we are, I think, conservative because the mine sweepers, the fast patrol boats, which are coming up. These are -- we are or if I say we, I think Rheinmetall NVL, if everything works, yes, we are the producer of that things. And nearly single source also in this area. We will produce corvettes, and we will produce frigates for sure. Nobody knows at the end of the day, is it 6? Is it 8? Is it 10 or whatever? It doesn't matter. It's a huge program. And the company this year makes EUR 1.3 billion. It is -- it will grow up. These are the official programs of the German Navy. So huge opportunity. Rheinmetall offers drones. You have seen it yesterday. And the summary that I want to see are the new businesses where we are going in. And if you see yesterday, you have seen what we are able to do in automization. So you have seen on the land system side, and you will see it maybe next year. We are on the way at the moment to automize main battle tanks, to automize Schakal, unmanned driving. Next year, you see it. The same what you have seen on the small toys, yesterday, which are driving around, we want to do with the big boys. This is a point which is very important because that is the next generation of digitization. We spoke about -- we speak about unmanned boats. This is the next point. The technology that we have on the vehicle side, we want to implement also in the digitization of the naval side. And if we do that, we have a big advantage to other shipbuilders because other shipbuilders usually have not a huge department, which is doing digitization in that area. The same on the air. This is what I said before, yes, unmanned planes. So the wing commanders to the F-35, and you have to communicate with the F-35. Not everyone is able to communicate with the F-35. So you need the linkage to them, and you must be in the inner circle of F-35 to make that happen. And the only thing what we want to show you is the opportunities that we have and the advantages that we have. And there is, in some areas, not so big competition. There is always competition in life, yes. but it's not so huge in different areas because of the technology gap others have in this area. So -- and you see what we -- what -- this is the family that we offer at the moment of UAVs that we offer to our customers. And we never spoke in details about bad things. And as I said before, we will make this year EUR 120 million, EUR 130 million in UAVs. I think there is nobody in Germany at the moment who makes EUR 130 million sales on the drone side, but nobody takes care about that because it's too small. The other thing is what I told is on the UAV business, a good business, yes, but it will grow. I think it can grow up to maybe EUR 1 billion. If everything is positive EUR 1.5 billion. But it is not a business like the auxiliary ammunition, which can grow up to EUR 6 billion, EUR 7 billion, EUR 8 billion in this area. And the reason for that is that the numbers they want at the moment is much, much smaller than on the auxiliary side because this is a precision -- usually a precision strike. Yesterday, you have seen the Raider. The Raider is that plane. So #4 from the top. This is what you have seen live yesterday. But we are on the way, and we are producing at the moment these drones. This is with a 10-kilogram, 4.5-kilogram warhead. This is loitering munition HERO. This is what we are producing in Italy. At the moment, only numbers of the 0.5 warhead. So these are different warheads. What is the differentiator that we have? And Rene told it before, we are a warhead producer. We are an ammunition producer. An electronic company is not able to produce a warhead. They are not allowed to produce a warhead because they need an ammunition plant like you see here, without an ammunition plant, without a warhead, you have no fighting drone. You have a plane which can fly, but you have no fighting drone. The second point is that we are producing the engines. This is the second point which is very important for us because we want to independent. Most of the drone producers use Chinese engines, Germany will not allow that. I said, okay, we want to be independent in this area. But if you see the engines, the electric engines that we have, we produce that in our factory in Saxony, where we said between 10 million and 11 million electric engines that we are producing. This is another USP that we are doing, yes. And the USP #3 is the connectivities, electronics that we are doing. We do that with -- together with Auterion, but also with Rheinmetall, and we implement these electronics into our battle management system, into the whole algorithm for what you have seen yesterday for war. Where are the competitors in this area? It's hard to compete if you can deliver all that things. And we are not interested, let me say, to be a single product producer. And this is the reason that we have all this family here in this point. Look, at this ammunition, for example, here, there is a small warhead, a very small warhead. This is where we fight -- this is implemented in vehicles like that vehicle or like that vehicle that we have. There is a launcher on the top where we kick out 10 or 12 of these small fighting drones. These are very small ones. The only thing that we produce is the electronics and the warhead. The rest we buy in. We are not interested to be a producer of quadrocopters. That's not our job. There are other companies who can work for us and do it, but to implement that into the battle management system, into the digitization concept, that is great. The interceptor, the same thing what we are doing. Yes, we do that together also with others. Only the warhead is ours. The interceptor is the drone that is fighting against drones. And what we want to do is we want to make a combination. The interceptor is part of our drone wall, and it's part -- it's another part like the Skyranger you see here to say, okay, we combine that and we bring them together. If the Skyranger can fight, but the Skyranger gives information to the interceptor and on the battle management field, if we need him also to fight against that. So there are different ways to fight against drones. The only thing what I want to reach now is to tell you and if -- the cruise missile, and this is the point that we want to qualify in this Barracuda. And the Barracuda is the underrated technology that we have. If we are able to qualify that in Germany, the European market is open. If this Barracuda is qualified, then you have a cruise missile with a price that is 20% of the price of the cruise missiles that we have at the moment in the market. But the profitability is still fine because it's another technology. We want to do the warhead. We want to do also on these areas something here on the check drive and other things, which are coming up. So I hope I can -- we could give you a small overview about that. What is our philosophy also in that business, this business is able to grow. And as I said, this is another piece of EUR 1 billion, EUR 1.5 billion that we can implement. Ah drones and a lot of people said, drone is a game changer. We don't need tanks. We need nothing. I say this is totally wrong. And this is exactly what I see in the discussions with all the governments about that. Without protection of people, yes, it is impossible to make war, and protection of people is coming with such vehicles. Germany will spend EUR 35 billion on satellites. That's a clear -- a very clear message. And it's not only satellites. It's also the intelligence that you get with satellites. It's the service. And the German government said, what we want is that we have a German satellite production, you want to be independent, also in Europe. Germany is spending most of the money, so we want to have -- we want to be also independent. And so they came also to us, and we spoke with them and said, okay, hey, guys, it's a good idea what you guys are doing, especially on the SAR satellites but also on others. We are on the way to cooperate also with satellite -- other satellite producers, not only on the electrooptical side but also on the communication side. Companies like Deutsche Telekom are interested to work with us now. And I said, okay, you're able to handle the customer, you are able to handle the Ministry of Defense, and this is an investment only from the Ministry of Defense. There is much more in because there are other investments here from the Ministry of Economy, et cetera, et cetera. We have cooperations with satellite launchings because at the end of the day, we think that satellite launching is also an important thing. This is Andøya what we are doing. And we have data processing, and this is, at the end of the day, the real business, and then we give the data as a service to the customer. So what we do is we sell pictures. We sell pictures to the customer. We sell information to the customer. As you have seen yesterday, when Timo made his presentation at the beginning, there are terabytes of data coming down and no human being is able to bring these terabytes into the right direction. So therefore, you need this data as a service. You need artificial intelligence to do it. And we have different partnerships in these areas, and we have our own technology that we bring in. We always try to have USPs that Rheinmetall at the end of the day is able to be in the driver seat. And there are 2 things which are important. One thing is the really, really good relationship that we have to governments in Europe and around the world. And the other thing are USPs on the technology side. These are the 2 drivers of the business to come let's -- to come inside that business. So intelligence, surveillance, reconnaissance and also communication and communication is the next step, where we are going in. We need communication satellites also on defense because without communication, it will not work. We build up with our programs like TaWAN, a terrestrial communication system, and we built up a communication system with satellites. What about people? People are the driver of success. And we are very grateful that this year, again, we will have 300,000 people who send the CV to Rheinmetall and want to join the Rheinmetall company. We are very attractive at the moment. I think this is the biggest advantage that we have. We can pick out of 300,000; 10,000, even also 12,000 per year to find the best people. That's a driver of success. If we build up at the program management in the divisions, if we build up operations guys, a lot of people, like Rene said, from the automotive business, which are really, really good in automization, yes, want to come to us now because automotive is suffering around all Germany. So we have, yes, a huge opportunity also to implement these well-educated people into the Rheinmetall family. So the risk level is very small. And this is what we always discuss, what are the risks of all the businesses. It's a very small one because we get the people. And if you see the risks, we make it -- we try to make it very simple. Over the next 5 years, the risk level of market is very small. It's a very small one because the demand is so big that nothing happens. On the labor side, also we get all the people that we have. It's always a risk in R&D, but the beauty that we have is we produce at the moment, more from the same. We have no new developments. I must not develop, let me say, self-propelled Howitzer. I must not develop Schakal. It's developed. It's now qualified. So we produce thousands from the same thing. Are there different solutions on the software? Yes. But at the end of the day, we do it together with the customer and the risk is relatively low. So R&D side, is also a point which we have relatively good under control, supply chain and execution. These are the 2 things. We acted, not we reacted. We acted. And the reason that we implemented Rene's area is exactly that because we have seen that operations is the biggest point. We need a big team, a huge team, yes. And I didn't count it. But at the end of the day, he has thousands of people who work in the operations side who take care about that. And this is -- and he's focusing really on that point. And the second point is that we implement also into Rene's area, the supply chain, because supply chain and operations have to work together. And we separated that, and we have a centralized supply chain management, with Marcus Gerlach, who is also the General Director of the Rheinmetall Group, and he's reporting to Rene. So Rene has the supply chain and the operations under control. And for me, it's easier because I have the easy job. I bring only the contracts, that was -- Ulrich always says, you bring the contracts, Rene has to make the work, thank you. So not joking longer about that things, but I think we have it under control. And I hope you got an impression about that, how precise he is going into the details, how precise he is doing the automization at the moment. And from the financial side, with all the contingencies and all the other things, that Klaus is doing. He prepares every project. I think we are on a really, really good way. And Vera takes care about the labors. And she has -- we have a centralized system where we have the recruiting. There are more than 100 young ladies and also young men who take care about that by day and by night, and we have a good digitization systems also about that to handle up to 300,000 people who want to come into Rheinmetall. The information we want to give you is we are prepared. We are really prepared ourselves. We are usually riding -- we are in front of the wave. We are not behind the wave in these areas. We invest before the customer is really pressing us. So we take the money. Is it always good for cash management? No, it is not. Absolutely not. But is it important? You cannot grow if you don't do it. If you don't invest, you cannot grow. But we are also entrepreneurs, yes. It's not bureaucracy what we are doing to say, okay, give me a contract. Then after 1 year, I start to invest something. And after 5 years, I start to deliver something. This is not the motto that we have today. Europe is in danger. And the governments are very happy what we are doing. The governments are very happy, and most of the ministers said, Armin, Rheinmetall is one of the companies, one of the few companies who is really doing what you are doing to go into investments, to be fast in these different areas and make it happen. And we think it's the right thing to protect our democracy, to protect freedom and to protect the people and also let me kids and if you have grandchild in different areas. So on the order intake, and this is also a very important thing in Q4 '25 and Q2 '26 -- up to Q2 '26, you see what happens. So the green checks are done. So Jackals, Skyrangers and different things are inside. And we have -- these are smaller than EUR 2.5 billion, EUR 2.5 billion to EUR 5 billion and EUR 5 billion in this area, and what you discussed about before the down payments. If you see, and this is an opportunity, if we sign EUR 10 billion, EUR 15 billion only for the Boxer or the Schakal side and because the first contract, the EUR 3.2 billion was the small contract. Now the big contract is coming. And what Klaus said, and that's a real digital thing, but the government wants to do it. If we sign EUR 10 billion to EUR 15 billion and if you get EUR 20 billion to EUR 30 billion down payment, we have no cash problem. If we get for all of them and at the moment, cash is not an issue for Germany. The Minister of Finance said, okay, you have cash, whatever you want, you get in this point. It's not an issue. Signing means you get down payments. A little bit, let me say, we have to guide it also because I discussed that, I think it was in one of the conferences in London, where I said, what do you think if we get EUR 5 billion or EUR 6 billion in one shot. And then the next year, we have to reduce it in these areas, yes. So that is the reason that we have this 3 years period to say that, I think, more than fair in these areas. But for all of them, we get down payments. And if you look to the big boys here of more than EUR 5 billion, EUR 6 billion package of Puma, yes. The same is here Romania. The digitization is on the same level. Medium caliber contract, a huge contract of 6 million rounds is also in EUR 6 billion, EUR 7 billion level. And the huge -- the biggest one will be the Boxer program, and you know the armed vehicle from Italy, where next year will be a big piece come. This year, we had a small piece, but next year, the big piece will come because they have to order. Otherwise, I cannot deliver Lynx and Panther. What we want to bring over, and this is -- this was, for us, the message we want to give you about that. Rheinmetall is well prepared. Rheinmetall is in the pole position to go with the NATO. NATO is giving us very clear or is not giving us, is giving the nations a very clear target, what they need, how many brigades, how many battalions they have to deliver to NATO to be prepared. The first target is 2029. In 2029, all the ministers and there is a commitment from NATO, all the ministers have a clear target from NATO, where they should go, how many vehicles they have to send to NATO, if tomorrow, we have a crisis. And if tomorrow, an aggressor is coming and wants to attack NATO areas. And we will be ready in '29, maybe earlier because the ramp-up curve that is coming now up on the vehicle side. We did it on the ammunition side. We come now on the vehicle side. We come now also on the digitization side. We are ready. And we have the speed that NATO wants. What's the reason that the margins from our side are much higher than the margins of our partners? Leverage, much stronger growth. You have seen it in one of the things. If we are growing between 25% and 35% and others are growing 15%, it's very clear that there is a leverage effect. There must be a leverage effect. The second point is the risk is relatively low because we are producing the same, always the same. There are R&D programs. We are investing in R&D, but this is not in the scope up to 2030. There are new technologies maybe in '35 and others, like new drone technologies that you see here in that areas, which you cannot see it because we did not present it. Best-in-class in capacity ramp-up. We are able to make it in 12 or 14 months. We have a very dynamic portfolio, as I said, 2,000 products from the Rheinmetall side. And we have the right people. And that is my point. And I really -- I'm really, really grateful that people are so motivated. It is unbelievable what you see. Maybe you have seen it yesterday if you go through the factories. The people have sparks in their eyes. They love to work for us. They love to do it even if they have to work by day and by night, even if the pressure is high to make it ready. We are able to do it. And people is everything what you need. It's people, people, people business, from program management to operation, to finance, to HR and finally also to sales. And if you have the right people, you create trust, and for me, in the governmental business, trust is the only thing what you need. If the ministers, if the prime ministers trust you, you make business. If you lose trust, you lose everything. And I hope now that we are not losing trust from your side. Trust us, we make it happen. Thank you very much again. Stay safe and god bless you. Bye.

So are there any questions left? Okay. Thank you. Who wants to go first?

Alessandro Pozzi, Mediobanca. You seem quite comfortable about execution and supply chain. I think that probably you've done quite a lot of work to see whether there is enough capacity in the supply chain, given your strong growth. You talked about a 25% to 30% growth every year for the next few years. And I was wondering what is your feeling about the supply chain and whether it can follow you into this growth trajectory, but also critical raw materials, you highlighted that in your slide and how critical materials are for you? And I guess there are areas where there are more of a concern compared to others. And last question, lot of orders coming through. If we fast forward a year by the end of next year, what do you think the backlog of Rheinmetall is going to be?

I say what I said before, middle of next year and with all the programs you see, we see the potential that our backlog can grow up to EUR 120 billion. The critical materials, and this was something that Rene also told you, we have usually very small numbers. It's easy for us to buy in whatever we need. For example, we made a deal with the chip producers with 10 chip producers, electronic producers for the next 5 years to say, okay, we pay, and we pay them also in front and said, okay, give us a safe harbor for the next 5 years for microchips. We gave them a better price because we don't need such a lot in this area. We are not automotive industry, yes, who needs millions of that pieces. And they store it for us. So they have it in their stocks, and we can pick it out and take it. It works fantastic. In ammunition, there is only one thing where we are -- that we need at the moment. But we also think at the moment to start our own linters production. But we have linters for 3 to 4 years in our stocks. So we are independent also from that. In South Africa, we had a linters production 20 years ago before we stepped in. They closed it, we reopened it now. And to be fair enough, cotton, you can buy cotton everywhere. That's easy. So this is the next point. It is a huge investment? No, it's not a huge investment, but we want to be independent. Steel, we have frame contracts with steel. On the steel side, we have Europeanization, bring it back to Europe. We bought steel from India. We bought steel from China. We will buy in the future the steel mostly in Germany or in Europe. There are steel producers who are very interested because they take our contracts as a ticket, as an investment ticket. You spoke about investments and Klaus spoke also about that point. On the investment side, if we said we give this contract for 5 years to this supply chain, Bank of America, KKR, all that guys are here coming to us and say, okay, I want to finance them. I give them money. This is a business for bankers, a huge business to invest in these areas, and it's a safe investment. It's a very safe investment because they have our contracts, fixed contracts over 5 years, over 7 years. These are totally different modules that we have at the moment, and I believe that money is not an issue. Absolutely not. I'm not happy to give the down payments to -- for free also to them. It's much better if Bank of America, whoever you invest the supply chain in this area. It's a business for banks. And I think we had the last 2 months, 6, 7 banks who were there and said, can you give me the 100 biggest supplier of Rheinmetall to give them money to be -- to invest them, to make an investment about that. There are huge opportunities at the moment. You must be flexible. You must be fast. This is, for sure, very, very clear. But I think we are prepared about that. Is that fair enough?

Michael Raab, Kepler Cheuvreux. First of all, I tend to agree with your view on UAVs. They're important, but the importance has been over pronounced. And I'm not going to bore you with military tactics and physics behind that. But out of the EUR 1 billion to EUR 1.5 billion sales potential you mentioned, rephrasing things, is that already included in your guidance? Or would that be on top?

Something is in because you see we do this year, EUR 120 million, EUR 130 million, but it's not an essential part of all that things. So if it's growing faster, I'm fine, but you know better than me about that things. If you have a forecast for 5 years, always something happens. So you have to compensate something. But at the end of the day, you have to hit the target. This is the most important thing for me. If I make EUR 300 million more there or less on the other side, for me, it doesn't matter.

And then secondly, on the 6 million rounds medium caliber for Germany, is this just for the IFVs? Or does that also include ABM for Skyrangers that are forthcoming?

It's a combination. And the big pack at the moment is for the inventory fighting vehicles. And -- but you can use, as you said, this is a 30- and 35-millimeter solution. You can use it for both. If -- you can fire the ABM ammunition on the Schakal and you can use it also on the air defense.

It's just a follow-up on 2027 because last year, obviously, you gave the guidance for 2027. Now today, you took us to the high end of the EUR 40 billion to EUR 50 billion. You indicated previously for 2030. I was just wondering because the previous months, you said '27 could be EUR 20 billion to EUR 25 billion. Based on all what you said today, what you think the opportunity is more on the upper end of that range or...

We, at the moment, in the planning phase. What we do is what we have to implement. We have to implement the naval business. We are, at the moment, at the beginning of the analysis phase because, as you know, we have still have not the closing. And this is a big driver also in that business. And as you know, at the end of the day, we have to deliver. This is the most important thing. And if I'm standing here and say, yes, I want to make EUR 25 billion. And at the end of the day, it's EUR 22 billion, you said, okay, he's the guy said, okay, here's this guy who said he made EUR 25 billion. So give me a range at the moment because we are in the planning phase. We do our utmost to be as good as possible because what we know. Timing is the most important thing. Customers have one thing at the moment, which is the most important thing. It's not pricing. It's time, deliver, deliver, deliver. If I go to the -- in 1.5 hours, I will fly to Berlin again. And the only thing that I get always from the minister is that deliver, when are you able to deliver. These are the hardest, let me say, speeches I have with my colleague here to say, okay, I need more Pumas. I need more Schakals and whatever in this area, they -- we have to deliver. And the people in Rheinmetall are really working hard on that area. But our business is not a business like a bretzel baker to say, okay, now I make EUR 1 million and next year, I make 2 million bretzels. This is easy only for a machine. It's complex machines. Look at that machines. This is -- if you compare that machines with a normal Mercedes or BMW 7, so this is technology-wise, let me say, another totally in the space, where the others are -- this is a totally -- this is a real technology-driven business, so you always have risk, but we want to compensate the risks. And therefore, I said I stay that we are between EUR 20 billion and EUR 25 billion.

Saima Hussain from AlphaValue. Just a last quick one on my side. I know visibility beyond 2030 is limited, and you're not guiding, but I will try my luck. Do you have a strategic view on where Rheinmetall could be heading by 2035?

Yes, but I don't tell it.

Sam Burgess, Goldman Sachs. Two quick ones, please. So on -- we've talked a bit about digitization, battlefield connectivity and autonomy clearly go hand-in-hand with this area. And you touched a little bit about how this could impact platform development going forward and some of the big boys, as you said. Given the pace of change in this area, could we see quite significant changes in the near term to how these platforms operate? And what's the aftermarket opportunity here perhaps in terms of software as a service for Rheinmetall? So that's question one. And then question two, just with the new additions of naval, space, digital, air defense, should we expect a significant reconstitution of your current divisional structure at some stage?

Number one, this is the last generation of vehicles which are manned. The next generation will be manned and unmanned. So I believe that -- and this is a system that we develop at the moment, that you have 1 manned vehicle and maybe 5 or 10 unmanned vehicles. And the unmanned vehicles are fighting in the front line. And the manned vehicle is, let me say, a railway station, a digital railway station where you take care about if something is going wrong. The impact you will see next -- middle of next year, we want to have the first wheeled and tracked vehicles, which is going totally autonomous. Is it in a stage of 0 production? No, but we want to show the prototypes. We want to go to our customers. We have that at the moment on the truck side. We have fully automated trucks. The trucks are driving, we load and unload the trucks with automatic load handling systems full in the digital scenario. So that is the reason that areas like TaWAN are so important because TaWAN is producing the network for us. You cannot hope if you -- in the middle of nowhere that telecom is giving you a 5G or a 6G net. So you have to do it by yourself as a point, and that's the reason that TaWAN is coming inside. You see it's a combination of all that things, and yes, the impact will be there. But what always is coming forward. First of all, that vehicles up to 2035 will be produced long term for the next 10 years. And then slowly, slowly, the next generation is coming in because governments are not changing the vehicles, yes, every day because it's too expensive. It's billion programs that they do. So it's a very smooth process to bring it inside. Second point -- second question, yes, you see that we change our organization. And we focus and we want to be transparent, to give you on the naval side, on the air defense side and on the digital side, a clear picture what's going on. And maybe we have to change also something if we are growing faster and faster, but this is a story of tomorrow or the day after tomorrow. For example, if you have a division who makes EUR 20 billions or more billions, if this is a DAX company, as a division in this area. We have maybe to split then to say, okay, because people -- if the weapon and ammunition, and Roman is sitting here, business is growing with missiles or whatever fast and fast. Maybe in 3 years or 4 years' time, we have a division missiles and we have a division ammunition. I don't know. But for tomorrow, this is what you have seen, we will have this new organization.

Marie-Ange from Morgan Stanley. I have actually one question on the German budget because apparently, last week, we had a document from the Bundestag with some like new allocation, I would say. So first, can you come back to that and just tell us if you have any surprise for the '26 budget, and then we'll do like one by one.

Yes. No surprise for '26 because in '26, we are fully booked between. In '27 and on the ammunition side, we are very well booked also. What you have seen is -- and this is always something and believe me, you get every 6 months a new paper from them because if the budget in one project at the moment is if they need more budget, they change something, but they change nothing from the total number, as I said. The total number of EUR 180 billion is up to 2030, the right figure, and they don't change that. They change internally between procurement line 1 or 2. If they change EUR 2 billion, EUR 3 billion from ammunition to vehicles, it doesn't matter, not for us because we deliver both and they change something because of the new idea to have an interim program of frigates. And now we are also in that business. So for us, I think it's -- it doesn't hurt because for me, it doesn't matter if it goes from a left pocket to my right pocket.

Okay. And probably like it's a good follow-up because my next question is on 2030 sales and what you have included actually. Like for naval, have you included any 126 frigate that can come? Or is like anything that we will hear will be on top of that of the EUR 5 billion that you mentioned?

Yes. We have in our plan, F126. And -- but the beauty in that plan is that we have a POC because usually on frigates, you make that via POC. The 126 is the following situation. The Lürssen troop has -- we have, at the moment, 70, 7-0, people in the Netherlands who make a due diligence, and I say we because as I said, again, closing is still not done, yes. And we are not operationally going inside only after closing, we can do it. But for sure, we get information from the market, 70 people make a due diligence at the moment in the Netherlands. And these people get from the government at the moment 4 months. After 4 months, the due diligence must be ready. Then we must see if there are technical risks, if there are economical risks and if there are time risks. And we are relatively risk-averse, as you know, because we take -- we try to -- and that is the reason that we have not super huge impacts. We also have impacts. So -- and if we would do everything better, as I said and only, as I said, on procurement and operations, and this is a discussion that Rene and myself are doing we have a potential of minimum 300 basis points to be better. So we lose for sure, something. But we will have an overview in 4 months. I think that in 4 months, the closing is done, and then we can make a decision what we do on the F126.

And just on M&A. So basically, you have included some M&A in your guidance. Like what's your level of confidence? Is it because you're already discussing with some companies and so you know that probably it will come? Or have you also included some JVs like higher scope for your current JVs? So can you just like go through that.

Yes. Now what we do, we always discuss over the whole year with companies if they fit for us. And there are smaller acquisitions, and there are bigger acquisitions. And if you see our new nitrocellulose plant come nearly out of the blue, we had an opportunity. The owner came to us and said, okay, yesterday, we discussed that also. He was a strong producer for nitrocellulose for this finger colors. And as I said, we are not interested in that, but we want to change that business into a defense business. This is exactly what we did. There are always opportunity. What I can say because now I always said to Roman because he is on the way to buy now the new ammunition storages in this area from a company, I told him inshallah because he told me 2 times that it works. But I think we will have it in the next 2 weeks. So I can tell it because we are really convinced to go forward. I don't speak about figures or names. So yes, we are sure that we are able to implement year-by-year 1, 2, 3 companies. And there was one question before about the big shot. Is it so that we want to go and invest into the big shot? Usually, this is not the philosophy of Rheinmetall to say, okay, now we want to invest EUR 10 billion in a company and let's see if it works. No, this is not what we want. We -- at the end of the day, we want to be -- we want to have a safe business, and I think it's also very important for all because we're also investors that also tomorrow our kids have still food. So thank you very much. It was a real pleasure for us to have you here. Now we -- food is the keyword. So the buffet is open.