Robinsons Land Corporation (RLC) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Okay. Ladies and gentlemen, good afternoon, and welcome to our full year 2024 analyst briefing. With us today is our newly appointed President and CEO, Ms. Mybelle Socorro V. Aragon-GoBio; Mr. Faraday D. Go, Executive Vice President and General Manager of Malls Division; Mr. Kerwin Max Tan, the company's Chief Financial Officer; and the rest of the Investor Relations team. Today, we will walk you through Robinsons Land Corporation's performance during the fourth quarter and full year of 2024 as well as key insights into our strategy, financials and operations. Presenting with us today are Mr. Kerwin Tan; and Mr. Ramon Rivero, Chief of Corporate Strategy and Sustainability. After the presentation, we will open the briefing for the Q&A session. Thank you. Mr. Kerwin, you may start.

Thank you. Good afternoon. Thank you for joining Robinsons Land Corporation's earnings call. Kindly allow us to take you through our unaudited financial results for the full year of the calendar year 2024, both for RL Commercial REIT, Inc. and for RLC. We will delve into our operational highlights, including our CapEx spending, provide updates on our ESG initiatives and conclude with our future plans and strategies. RLC's REIT company, RCR, has grown into a PHP 92 billion company after substantial infusion of assets worth PHP 33.92 billion via property for share swap. With RCR's growing contribution to RLC's consolidated financials, we deem it worthy to share with you some highlights showing RCR's financial performance, current portfolio of assets and total gross leasable area. In 2024, RCR contributed 19% of RLC's consolidated revenues amounting to PHP 8.16 billion and 32% of RLC's consolidated parent net income totaling PHP 4.25 billion. This marks a notable increase from previous year following the addition of new malls and office properties. RCR's EBITDA margin stood at 88%, reflecting its transition to a more diversified REIT, unlocking further its growth potential. By year-end, its portfolio comprised of 29 properties, bringing the total gross leasable area to 828,000 square meters. RCR operates across 18 key locations, with a strong blended occupancy rate of 96% and a weighted average lease expiry, or WALE, of 3.37 years. Properties in red font represent the newly infused assets from RLC to RCR. Moving forward with RLC, as a sponsor of the REIT company, RLC successfully executed a total of PHP 10.2 billion in overnight block placements, further crystallizing the value of its assets. This enabled the company to complete the single largest multi-asset infusion by a Philippine REIT company to date. RLC delivered an outstanding performance in 2024. Net income attributable to equity holders of the parent company reached PHP 13.21 billion, marking a strong 10% increase year-over-year. This growth was primarily driven by our investment portfolio composed of the malls, offices, hotels and logistics segments. Our investment portfolio remains a key revenue driver, contributing a substantive 77% to consolidated revenues. Notably, the mall segment has achieved a commendable 11% revenue growth while the office segment has experienced an 8% increase. The hospitality segment has shown phenomenal growth, surging by an impressive 31%. And our logistics segment has maintained its upward trajectory, with a remarkable 33% revenue increase. RCR also made significant strides, with revenues rising by 48% to PHP 8.16 billion, fueled by the infusion of the 13 additional assets that expanded RCR's market presence across both offices and malls. In the residential segment, total net presales amounted to PHP 20.18 billion, with PHP 7.29 billion coming from its organic projects, in line with the committed target, and PHP 12.89 billion from its joint ventures. Full year realized revenue reached PHP 6.16 billion, exceeding commitment mentioned in the third quarter of 2024. Destination Estates registered a 7% increase in revenue, reaching PHP 1.27 billion from the deferred gain on the sale of lots to the joint ventures. These exceptional results reflect RLC's steadfast commitment to excellence and strategic growth, positioning the company for continued success in the future. As of the end of 2024, RLC boasts a diverse and robust asset portfolio that includes 55 operational lifestyle centers, 134 residential developments, 32 office developments, 31 mixed-use developments, 26 hotels, 11 work.able centers and 12 industrial facilities. Now let us turn to the financial performance highlights. RLC maintains a strong financial position with total assets at PHP 259.1 billion (sic) [ PHP 261 billion ], which includes approximately PHP 10.5 billion in cash reserves. Shareholders' equity stands at PHP 161.2 billion, reflecting a solid capital base and financial stability. As of December 31, 2024, our total outstanding debt is at PHP 53.2 billion, resulting in a prudent net debt-to-equity ratio of 28%. Earnings per share has reached PHP 2.74, an 11% increase from the same period last year. Furthermore, the net book value per share as of the end of the year is at PHP 31.77, indicating that the company's intrinsic value significantly exceeds its market capitalization. Overall, RLC's robust financial standing, durable capital structure and notable earnings growth underscore our resilient and exemplary management practices, thereby enhancing shareholder confidence and market positioning. We would like to note that the presentation is based on unaudited financial statements. For the full year 2024, RLC witnessed a 2% increase in consolidated revenues, totaling PHP 42.88 billion, primarily driven by the strong performances of our investment portfolio, offset by the lower realized revenues of the Residential Division. As a result, both EBITDA and EBIT increased by 2% as well. Net income attributable to the parent company improved by 10% year-over-year, totaling PHP 13.21 billion for the full year. This result was driven by a onetime gain from the reclassification of our investment in GoTyme and the temporary reduction in RLC's ownership in RCR from April to August. After the SEC approved the property for share swap in September, RLC's ownership in RCR reverted to 66%. Even without the impact of the reclassification and decrease in ownership, net income still showed an increase of 2%, in line with EBIT growth. These results showcase RLC's ability to deliver sustained growth and profitability through its diverse portfolio, strategic initiatives and effective management. For the full year 2024, the investment portfolio, which includes the malls, offices, hotels and logistics segments, delivered substantial growth, contributing 77% of consolidated revenues, 85% of EBITDA and 80% of EBIT. Additionally, the Destination Estates segment posted positive revenue growth, driven by the recognition of deferred gains from the sale of lots to joint venture projects. In the fourth quarter, all segments within the investment portfolio recorded positive revenue growth. However, this was offset by the lower residential revenues and a decline in our share in the net income of joint ventures. The contributions of the investment portfolio are at 76% of consolidated revenues, 93% of EBITDA and 90% of EBIT. Net income for the quarter declined marginally by 1% year-over-year, mainly due to higher expenses that were not fully recovered by the revenue growth. I now turn you over to Mr. Ramon Rivero for the operational highlights per business unit.

Thank you, Mr. Kerwin Tan, and good afternoon to everyone in the call. Robinsons Malls generated PHP 17.96 billion in revenues for 2024, marking an 11% year-on-year increase. This was supported by higher tenant sales, increased foot traffic and contribution from our new mall. Revenues for fourth quarter of last year saw an 8% growth year-on-year to PHP 4.81 billion versus same period last year. Meanwhile, rental revenues grew by 10% year-on-year to PHP 12.58 billion. EBITDA increased 14% year-on-year to PHP 10.60 billion while EBIT posted a 22% growth to PHP 7.17 billion. Driven by a high revenue base and operational efficiencies, mall EBITDA and EBIT margins for the full year 2024 are at 59% and 40%, respectively. Our new mall, Opus Mall, located at Bridgetowne Estate, marks our entry into the upscale market, bringing our mall portfolio to 55 lifestyle centers. Total mall leasable space now stands at 1.68 million square meters, featuring over 8,700 retailers. In July, we opened Opus Mall at our Bridgetowne Estate. Opus Mall is 85% leased out, and more than 65% of the leased tenants are already opened by the end of 2024. RLC's office segment posted an 8% increase in revenues to PHP 7.95 billion in 2024, supported by rental growth across its high-quality office developments. In the fourth quarter alone, revenues rose 11% year-on-year to PHP 2.03 billion. Occupancy remained stable at 86%, underscoring the resilience of RLC's office portfolio. EBITDA reached PHP 6.40 billion while EBIT came in at PHP 5.26 billion, highlighting the segment's robust contribution to overall performance. Currently, RLC has 32 office buildings, with a total of 793,000 square meters of gross leasable space. Separately, with the addition of Robinsons Summit Center 1 and 2 in Makati, the company now has 11 work.able locations, offering a total of 2,601 co-working seats. Robinsons Hotels and Resorts, or RHR, maintained its growth momentum in 2024, with revenues rising 31% year-on-year to PHP 6 billion. This was driven by strong performance across all brands, particularly international partnerships and Fili hotel, our own Filipino-branded 5-star hotel, coupled with strong F&B, which contributed 38% of total revenues. EBITDA grew 61% to PHP 1.80 billion while EBIT more than doubled, reaching PHP 985 million. RHR's expanding portfolio now consists of 26 hotel properties with over 4,000 room keys, reinforcing its position as a key player in the hospitality sector. RLC Residences generated PHP 20.18 billion of net sales, of which PHP 7.21 billion was attributed to its organic projects and PHP 12.89 billion from its joint ventures. Realized revenues for the year reached PHP 8.78 billion, including PHP 2.63 billion from equity share in joint venture projects. EBITDA and EBIT stood at PHP 2.92 billion and PHP 2.80 billion, respectively. Robinsons Logistics and Industrial Facilities, or RLX, recorded a 33% increase in revenues to PHP 966 million in 2024. This is supported by sustained demand for industrial and warehouse spaces. EBITDA grew 35% to PHP 856 million while EBIT rose 38% to PHP 671 million. And despite its elevated base, its profitability continues to flourish. During the year, RLX expanded its portfolio with the completion of 3 new warehouses, namely RLX Sierra 2 in Sierra Valley Estate, RLX Calamba 2C and 2D and RLX San Fernando 2. RLX now operates 12 industrial facilities across key locations in Metro Manila, Pampanga and Laguna, all offering 294,000 square meters of gross leasable space to continue supporting the growing needs of businesses. Robinsons Destination Estate, or RDE, recorded property development revenues of PHP 1.27 billion for the full year from the deferred sale of parcels of land to joint venture entities. EBITDA and EBIT reached at PHP 728 million and PHP 724 million, respectively. In 2024, RLC spent a total of PHP 21.98 billion in capital expenditures for the development of malls, offices, hotels and warehouse facilities; the acquisition of land; and the construction of its residential projects for its local operations. To support our expansive growth plans, our land bank now covers over 838 hectares, with an estimated value of about PHP 192 billion as of the end of 2024. Now moving on to our ESG highlights. RLC continues to integrate environmental stewardship into its projects. Demonstrating leadership in renewable energy, 24 Robinsons malls have generated a total of 190 million kilowatt hours of green energy from 2015 to 2024. This initiative has resulted in preventing 138,300 metric tons of carbon dioxide emissions, equivalent to planting 2.3 million trees. RLC also prioritizes sustainable design through green building certification. To date, the company has achieved a total of 18 green-certified properties, including 6 LEED-certified office buildings and 12 EDGE certifications, 10 for our office spaces and 2 for residential developments. Moreover, majority of RLC properties incorporate water conservation measures, wherein a total of 29 malls and 15 office buildings feature green water collection systems and recycle wastewater through sewage treatment plants. Robinsons Land Foundation Inc., or RLFI, remains steadfast in its commitment to relief and rehabilitation efforts during natural disasters. Through its RLove program, RLFI has provided aid to communities affected by various calamities across the Philippines, including Typhoon Krisi (sic) [ Kristine ], Carina, Pepito and Marce. Additionally, the foundation has extended assistance to the victims of the fire in Cebu and Palawan and the flooding in Tagum and Butuan. And beyond disaster response, RLFI is actively engaged in community development and continues to support education through its Brigada Eskwela program, helping schools create better learning environments for students. And lastly, for governance, RLC is firmly committed to good corporate governance. And to uphold ethical and responsible business practices, we continue to adopt a comprehensive anti-bribery and anticorruption policy. Additionally, RLC has fully complied with the registration requirements of the Anti-Money Laundering Council in accordance with the Anti-Money Laundering Act. Last year, we opened Opus Mall, our first premier upscale lifestyle center, providing us an additional 3% of gross leasable space, leading to 1.68 million square meters of gross leasable area. This year, we will be adding 20,000 square meters of gross leasable area through the expansion of our existing mall in Bacolod, the redevelopment of our mall in the city of Manila and the completion of our new malls in Pagadian and in Caloocan. For offices, we have completed last year GBF Tower 1. This year, we will complete the GBF Center 2 and Cybergate Iloilo 3, which will increase office leasable space by 12% to 885,000 square meters of net leasable space. For logistics, we have completed RLC Sierra 2, RLX Calamba 2C and 2D and RLX San Fernando 2, all combined for a total of 67,000 square meters of gross leasable space added in our logistics portfolio. This brings the total to 294,000 square meters by end of 2024. In 2025, we will complete 2 more logistics facilities, namely RLX Taytay 2 and RLX Calamba 2E, bringing our total to 14 logistics assets and increasing the gross leasable space by 12% to 328,000 square meters. And lastly, for Robinsons Hotels and Resorts, we are expected to complete NUSTAR Hotel this year, our foray in the ultra-luxury segment, which is located in NUSTAR Integrated Resort, Cebu. And with this, our room keys shall grow by 5% to 4,466 rooms in 2025. This ends our presentation. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Kerwin and Ramon. Some housekeeping rules for the Q&A. [Operator Instructions] But first and foremost, we have a Q&A question through the chat box from Richard, so we will read this: Sorry, I might have missed this, but why was EBITDA and EBIT of office leasing flat year-on-year? Mr. Kerwin?

The higher EBITDA -- the flat EBITDA was brought upon by the higher contracted services and preoperating expenses for new offices while the flat EBIT was brought upon by the depreciation of our new office buildings, slightly offset by the fully depreciated old offices.

Thank you, Mr. Kerwin. Now we go to the raised hand. First will be Jelline Gaza from JPMorgan.

I'm Jelline Gaza from JP. I have some data requests, if I'm -- regarding the residential business. First is, would you be able to share the value of the unsold inventory, percentage of RFO mix and total residential launches for the year?

For the value of the unsold inventory, it's at PHP 48.6 billion. For the RFO, it's at PHP 5.5 billion or 11.3%.

Okay. Understood. And then on the results itself, what factors would you attribute on the residential revenues as compared to the third quarter guidance? And how should we think about this going forward, at least for this year?

The increase in the revenue or the presales for Q4 were driven primarily of the return of inventory from the previous quarter's cancellation. And number two, I think it's already kicking that the salespeople are already adapting to our new reservation sales. Therefore, buyers are more on the quality side and delivering better sales for us.

Understood. And on the presales for the organic business, how are you viewing the current state of the market? And how should we be thinking about presales growth?

Ms. Mybelle, do you want to answer?

Jelline, so our view on the ground is that the premium segment remains resilient, while the mid-tier segment is challenged. This was exacerbated by the exit of POGOs, dampening investor demand and leading many real estate investors to reevaluate their positions. What is helping to stabilize the industry is that developers are deferring or tempering project launches, so leading to a pause in new supply. So we think that this slowdown should help ease market pressures and bring the sector to an inflection point where demand and supply dynamics should begin to realign.

Okay. Understood. But how are you thinking about the joint venture projects? On the presales front, the decline quarter-on-quarter and year-on-year is pretty steep. Is it a matter of just supply? Or is it just a broad level slowing down even for the residential -- the more premium segment?

In the premium segment, in the JVs in particular, we saw a decline because we're coming from a high base last year because we recorded bulk of the Aurelia revenues that year. And also, we launched Haraya that year as well. But we are very confident that this segment should remain resilient.

Next question will go -- again from the raised hand from Jon Ogden. Jon?

Can you hear me now?

Yes, we can hear you, Jon.

Good results in a difficult market. Like the previous lady, I'd just like to focus on the residential because the office and malls are kind of more predictable, I guess. I just wanted to understand a few things. The third quarter, you had a lot of cancellations, and they weren't put in the presentation -- but they weren't put in the 4Q presentation. So I just wondered if you can explain what's going on with cancellations. And then secondly, if we can look at Slide 12 -- sorry, Slide 13, the EBITDA and EBIT are actually negative for residential. So can you explain why that was? And then all in all, the previous answer mentioned there was a hope of supply and demand coming back into balance. But any sort of indication when that might be? Because it seems like there's, I think, from memory, 74,000 flats in Manila unsold, and there's about a 10,000-per-year take-up. So it sounds like there's quite a large glut to deal with. So maybe you can give us a bit more insights into how the market might rebalance in that tough circumstance.

Mr. Kerwin?

Okay. I'll answer the first 2 questions. For the third quarter, the record cancellation was about PHP 8 billion. Then the answer for the negative EBIT and EBITDA is due to higher marketing expenses incurred for the period.

For the last question.

For the last, as mentioned, like as with our peers who are deferring new launches, I think we're also adopting that same strategy to ensure better market timing. So this should align with the demand as well. And we're also looking at -- we're seeing growth prospects for horizontal projects, particularly in provincial areas.

Sorry, could I just get a bit more explanation? I know the cancellations were PHP 8 billion, but I just don't -- why did that happen though? It's a kind of number out of nowhere. And then there's nothing for 4Q. So what was this large number of cancellations? I mean that's like 40% of the entire sales canceled. So I don't understand what the cause of that was. And what was it in 4Q and for the full year? And then also negative EBITDA and EBIT. I mean, normally, you're going to have a gross margin of, say, 30% to 40% for development, and then you're going to have maybe 5% for marketing expenses. So you're going to have probably better than 10% or 15% bottom line positive margin. So I just don't see why you've got a negative one.

Okay. Just to recall, last third quarter, we had the PHP 8 billion cancellation because we adopted a more stringent cancellation policies, by which it took us -- we basically adopted the policy to take a shorter time to cancel for defaulting accounts. Henceforth, that's essentially a cleanup of all -- of most of the defaulting accounts. Then in the fourth quarter, as we adopted the more stringent policies, it's -- the cancellations were tempered at that time. As our sellers -- as mentioned earlier, our sellers were more adaptive to the higher -- to sell projects with higher reservation sales and more stringent payment terms and -- which basically, in effect, filtered out our cancellations. And for the marketing -- for the higher marketing -- for the negative EBIT and EBITDA, this was brought upon by the higher marketing expenses, higher operating -- other operating expenses. We are basically spending more capital to build up the brand also. And also -- that also includes the system expenses also.

Can you tell me -- sorry to -- I'm a newcomer to the cancellations. Are these people who are paying per month towards the deposit, say, 10% or 20% ahead of, say, the completion of an apartment block and then they stop paying their monthly payments and then you had a chat with them and eventually you had to kind of cancel these sales? Is that how we should see that? And then what was the number in 4Q?

Sorry, just to provide more color to it. Typically, our sales for the core projects do not require a down payment. The ones you were mentioning, the 10% upfront apply -- typically applies to our flagship projects. And we typically -- our payment schemes are typically 20% over the spread of the construction period and 80% on the end of the construction -- or the turnover period.

Okay. Well, I mean, can we give any guidance for what we could expect for residential in this 2025 in terms of presales and booked revenues? Can you help us with that?

I think we typically do not provide guidance for our residential sales as it's very difficult to determine basically how many buyers are going to buy our unit even today, right -- even the following day, right? So we typically do not provide guidance. And -- but we can provide more color as we get the final results as of the first quarter of 2025. That would be provided in the next earnings call.

Okay. Well, just speaking of color, if we look at where we are now, we are towards the end of the first quarter. How is this -- where we are now versus 1 year ago? Look -- or do you want to talk to us about how sales proceeded through the 2024 through the quarters? Was it getting better at the end of the year or getting worse? Or how is that?

Basically, our first -- I recall, I think first quarter of 2024, our presales is very low. So we definitely -- the numbers that we are currently seeing on the ground are definitely higher than the first quarter of 2024.

Okay. Final thing. How much of this sort of downturn you've seen in your residential sales are down to the actual market? And how much is down to -- you mentioned you have these really good projects really in Haraya. So how much is down to -- they're in the rearview mirror now and you're waiting for your next good project. So maybe that's a factor as well.

Jon, can you elaborate your question? We were not able to get it, sorry.

Sorry, yes. I was just saying that in past year, you had Aurelia and Haraya as very good projects, which sold well, as I recall. And then maybe in 2024, you didn't have those projects. So that might be part of the reason that your presales were down. On the other hand, of course, you got the overall kind of tough market. So how do you weigh those 2 factors in terms of the downturn in sales last year for residential?

Jon, typically, when we launch a project, we see a spike in sales. So that is the case in Haraya because we have launched it then. We have a reduction in inventory from that particular project. So that will explain the reduction in the performance for the premium segment for JV project. So -- and then couple that with a general downturn in the mid-tier segment, ergo our numbers.

Okay. Sorry, one final thing. You mentioned a $40 billion total inventory with $5.5 billion in ready for occupation. Can you give us a breakdown for the other portion, the remaining $35 billion, $36 billion?

Sorry, our inventory is PHP 48 billion -- PHP 48.7 billion.

Sorry, I'll make it -- pardon me, PHP 48.7 billion, okay. And...

PHP 5.5 billion of which is RFO.

Okay. And what's the rest in terms of -- how should we feel about that? You've obviously got some land, which is kind of classified as inventory. And then you've got, I would think, low-rise projects with some units for sale, so -- but other -- an area that's clear that's going to be sort of launched soon. I mean...

So from the PHP 48.7 billion total in the -- billion pesos of inventory, PHP 5.5 billion of that would be RFO, and then PHP 6 billion will be our horizontal projects, and the rest are preselling vertical projects.

Thank you, Jon. Thank you. Next question will be coming from Yvonne To of Morgan Stanley.

I got a few clarifications. For the first is -- one second. In terms of cancellation, what is the full year cancellation? Full year cancellation.

Yvonne, if I'm correct, you're asking us what's our view on cancellation, right?

Full year cancellation.

The full year for...

Full year -- sorry.

Yvonne, we always report our numbers on a net basis.

Okay. But could you give us some color? I think like 3Q was PHP 8 billion, but how about 4Q? Is it lower? Is it higher?

Definitely, it's lower than the PHP 8 billion that we mentioned. The reason why we only disclosed it in the third quarter is due to the new policies -- cancellation policies that were adopted and resulting in a huge cancellation.

Okay. And finally, compared to FY '23, do you have the cancellation number?

Yvonne, we provide numbers on a net basis. Even in 2023, we also provided on a net basis.

Okay. How about in percentage terms then for cancellation as a percentage of sales?

Yvonne, just to reiterate, we always report number on a net basis, and we refrain from providing a percentage -- on a percentage, cancellation because the numbers really varies. So I think it's better we focus on the net sales reporting.

Okay. Fine. Then we can move on from that. In terms of presales, I just want to clarify. Earlier, you mentioned that the 4Q presales was due to return of inventory from previous quarter's cancellations. What do you mean by that?

Since most of the inventory were already canceled in 3Q, so the interest to those units were back in Q4, hence the spike in our presales.

Okay. So meaning the buyers who have defaulted, and then you started to sell those inventory back to them.

Yes. Sell again, yes.

Okay. Got it. And did I catch this right? You were saying that for the first Q 2025, presales are very low, but it's higher than 1Q '24?

Q1 2025 numbers are better than Q1 2024 numbers.

Okay. Got it. The next question I have is, what was the -- how much did you launch this year in 2024 versus last year in number of units in peso terms?

In 2024, we launched PHP 21 billion worth of inventory.

Versus last year?

Yes, in 2024, yes.

Yes. What is last year's launch number?

Hold on.

Yvonne, '25 -- 2023 is PHP 23 billion, PHP 22.7 billion.

And then so going forward to 2025, are you expecting to launch more or none or less because you were mentioning that your peers are slowing launches to lower the supply in the market?

Yes, Yvonne. So along with our peers, we're also deferring new launches to ensure better market timing and possibly prioritizing only horizontal projects, which demonstrate stronger demand and quicker absorption.

Right. Do you expect it to be in the PHP 20 billion range for 2025 or much lower?

Much, much lower as we are prioritizing horizontal projects, which would typically have lower inventory values.

Okay. Is there a number you can share with us in terms of your launch target by any chance?

We'll provide more color in the next earnings call. We're still firming up our future project launches for this year.

Okay. In terms of the unsold inventory, you mentioned that it's PHP 48.7 billion. How many months is that? And how many units is that?

So this comes out to be about 2.5 years' worth of inventory. In terms of number of units, it's coming out to be 3,200 units.

Okay. And out of this 3,200 units, how many are located in Metro Manila?

About...

About 80%.

About 80% of the inventory will be located in Metro Manila. Typically, the horizontal projects are the ones that are located in the provincial areas apart from a couple of projects -- vertical projects, which are located in Cebu.

Right. Okay. So 80% of unsold inventory in Metro Manila, and you were sharing that about 11% of PHP 48.7 billion are RFOs. So as a percentage of RFOs, how many are in Metro Manila as a percentage of RFOs, which is PHP 5.5 billion?

It's mostly in Metro Manila, Yvonne.

So it's 100% in Metro Manila for RFOs?

About 90%. We have also completed projects in Cebu, which would account for a small number of our RFO volume.

Do you mind sharing which part of Metro Manila are these RFOs located in?

Ortigas area. Ortigas.

Well, Ortigas area. We also have some in BGC, Quezon City, Mandaluyong. So those are the general areas. So major CBDs.

Right. Got it. And are you seeing deep discounting activities? Because I think in the previous call, you did mention that there's quite a lot of discounts happening, with developers trying to offload this inventory in the market. Are you doing the same? And are you seeing the same?

Well, we are -- we've recently launched employee-focused packages, giving discounts for our over 100,000-strong Gokongwei Group ecosystem, and we're hoping to tap into our built-in network of potential buyers.

What are this employee discount? Do you mind sharing?

It varies. It depends on the projects, where they are in the development cycle. It's a range depending also on the payment scheme to be chosen by the buyers.

Okay. One last question from me. Could you share your unbooked revenue?

Standby revenue.

Our standby revenue currently stands at PHP 49.6 billion.

PHP 49.6 billion.

Sorry, sorry -- I'm sorry. PHP 52 billion, sorry, PHP 52 billion.

PHP 52 billion that's unbooked revenue. Okay. Sorry, if I can just one -- ask one last question before getting back in the queue. Did I catch this right? You were saying that for your core segment, down payment is not required, right? For your core projects, you do not require any down payment.

That's right. So the typical payment scheme for our core projects would require a reservation fee of PHP 50,000. And then we collect 20% of the contract price over the life -- or the construction life of the project.

These are for core projects? Because earlier, I heard sales for core projects do not require down payment.

That's right.

That's right.

So the 20% is amortized over the...

Period of the project.

The period of the construction.

Okay. But 20% down payment is a requirement more for the flagship, more expensive projects.

For the flagship, we do require, first off, a higher reservation fee and a 5% down payment.

Okay. And so for the core projects, because you said you have tightened your payment terms, how has it changed? Can you share?

It previously came from a payment scheme of 15% amortized over the construction life as well as a low reservation fee. So we had tightened that in a sense that we had doubled the reservation fee as well as increasing the amortized amount from 15% to 20%.

Right. You have doubled your reservation fee to PHP 50,000, correct?

That's right.

Thank you, Yvonne. Next question, we'll go to RJ Aguirre.

So I just have a few questions. Some were answered earlier. I know you don't guide for residential outlook and target sales. But in terms of the strategy, is outside Metro Manila becoming a big part of residential? Is that something that can be part of your strategy moving forward? So that's my first one.

Yes, RJ, it is part of our strategy moving forward apart from prioritizing horizontal projects. We see growth areas in provincial areas. So we intend to diversify our portfolio to include projects in those growth centers.

And by that, you also would need acquisitions of land bank? Or will you play on the existing ones?

Mostly from our existing land bank.

Okay. Got it. My second is on the office. I noticed that there's flat EBIT and stable occupancy. Can you give us more color on how that came about? Is there more expenses or lower rent?

RJ, I think it was answered earlier, just to reiterate.

RJ, I think it was answered earlier. Basically, it's just due to the -- it's due to higher OpEx for EBITDA and higher preoperating expenses for offices. But EBIT -- flat EBIT is due to the depreciation of our new buildings, slightly offset by the fully depreciated old buildings.

And will that be considered the new norm moving forward?

No, definitely, as we -- as the new buildings earn -- as we get more tenants for the new builds, definitely revenues will be higher for the new buildings.

So currently, the occupation -- the occupancy is 86%, correct? Would you give any color on the commitments or no difference there?

James, would you like to...

RJ, sorry, what do you mean by -- could I clarify on what do you mean by commitments?

So -- or when you have occupancy level at 86%, that's it? Or do you have like precommitments or those that have leased out, but not yet there? Or it's the same number, 86%?

We do have some coming in the first quarter of 2025. So expecting it to go a bit higher, yes.

Okay. All right. That's good enough. The last question is on the malls. Would you be able to give us color on the same mall sales growth or same mall revenue growth?

Okay. For same mall rental growth, it's up basically 9%, and same mall sales growth is up 6%.

6%. That's for the full year?

Yes, that's for the full year.

Yes, it's for the full year. That's right.

Any indicator on the fourth quarter?

Fourth quarter. I think it should be...

For the fourth quarter, the same mall revenue growth is at 6%.

We basically see we've gained market share for the mall segment by bringing in new tenants, new brands, strengthen the tenant mix. We've also improved the customer experiences in our malls.

Thanks, RJ. Next question on the raised hands will be Carl Sy.

This is Carl of Regis Partners. Let me just check if you can hear me.

Yes, we can hear you, Carl.

Great. Sorry, my first set of questions will just be to -- I'm not sure if I heard correctly the answers to RJ's questions about same mall revenue growth. Do I understand correctly for FY '24, full year '24, it was 9%. And then for the fourth quarter, it was 6%?

Yes, that's right.

Sure. Now some -- another data-related question this time. For the JV projects only, can you tell me the unsold inventory level or value?

PHP 18 billion.

Yes, please.

PHP 18 billion, 1-8.

PHP 18 billion. Got it. Now on -- let's say, thinking about residential demand with respect to presales. So first, on the -- for the fourth quarter, specifically for the JV projects only, sales fell on a quarter-on-quarter and year-on-year basis. And then for the stand-alone projects, it was mentioned that for the third quarter, there were PHP 8 billion in cancellations, right, which would imply that for the third quarter, before those PHP 8 billion, you would have sold PHP 5 billion in stand-alone -- for stand-alone projects in the third quarter. This fell to about PHP 4 billion in the fourth quarter. So should I think of these quarter-on-quarter drops as -- let's say, from management's perspective or the salespeople, did they feel like there was anything particularly -- did they feel a difference, like there was really so much less buyer confidence in the fourth quarter? Or do you think of this as just quarterly volatility?

I think, Carl, the answer to that is that as we had more stringent sales acceptance process, such as higher reservation fees as our payment terms become more tighter, we would -- it's basically a natural way of filtering out quality buyers, as we've mentioned. We would expect a bit of the sales velocity might slow down a bit, but we should expect this as quality sales, and we would expect to retain these buyers throughout the completion -- the turnover stage of the project.

Also, Carl, apart from what Kerwin said about moderating sales, typically, fourth quarter is slower than the rest of the year. So first and fourth quarter actually tend to be slower than the middle of the year.

Okay. Okay. On -- let's say, this time, the JV projects. So I think what Kerwin mentioned on the tightening is more for the stand-alone projects. And for the JV projects, very high-end clientele. You mentioned that sales fell because launches were new in 2023. So the, I guess, prime -- the choice units were sold first, and it's slowing down, understandably so. For fiscal year '25, do you plan to launch a new JV project? Or are you going -- or is your intention to just wind down what's existing?

We do have another tower in one of our JVs, particularly the one of Shangri-La that we are considering to launch within the year. So that should augment our sales coming from JVs. And as you mentioned, Carl, last year, we also had the benefit of selling a lot of the highest end of our inventory, the Aurelia. So that would account for the much larger presales last year.

Got it. And then with respect this time to the revenue and profit of the residential segment. So it was mentioned that there were a lot more marketing expenses in the fourth quarter. Now where I'm coming from here first is on a quarter-on-quarter basis, there was a pretty big increase in revenue, but the net loss for the fourth quarter for residential stand-alone still widened. So I want to ask if for the marketing expenses you're referring to, first, is this -- let's say, for the full year, is it -- did you spend a normal amount at least, let's say, relative to 2023 or relative to pre-COVID level? Or are you spending actually a lot more on marketing expense now than, let's say, even pre-COVID period? So yes, the first is, let's say, for the full year and the fourth quarter, right? And I wanted to ask if on a full year basis, first, is it normal and if it were normal for the full year, and it just happened to be lumped in the fourth quarter.

Yes. Fourth quarter was an aberration in the sense that we have 2 major, huge -- or major expenses, one being we had set up an office in Dubai, and the other was to purchase a platform for our CRM. Moving forward, we expect the operating expenses to regularize. So we don't see this -- we won't see this big expense in the first quarter.

So to clarify, as you said, so these are not the -- it's not the recurring level of, let's say, CRM in [indiscernible].

It's not, yes. These are one-off.

Got it. And then I think it was mentioned in previous briefings this time that residential revenue would be low for the fiscal year 2024, which happened, but it should ramp up in FY '25 due to timing of when you recorded presales in many years back. Is it -- is that -- should that still be the case? So the PHP 8 billion, let's say, canceled will not make an impact? So basically that revenue of -- for fiscal year '25 should be substantially better for residential stand-alone?

Carl, we believe that 2025 should be better. Recall that in early part of 2024, it was also due to the timing of the -- this was a function of the pre -- of the COVID sales by which it took a while. It will take until -- it will -- things would basically normalize by second half of 2025.

Second half '25.

And then as new projects become -- as we launched new projects basically in 2023 onwards, we would expect probably increase in construction completion, henceforth translating to increased revenue recognition.

Thank you, Carl. Before we go back to the raised hand queue, we'll just answer first on the chat box and also on the Q&A chat box. So first will be from Ken Gudito from Security Bank.

For 2025, we will be guiding for a CapEx for about PHP 25 billion -- PHP 24 billion, sorry, PHP 24 billion. For our maturing debts, tapping the capital markets is a possibility, but we will see various factors that will depend -- but it will depend on market conditions and see where we can maximize basically -- where we can minimize the expenses in terms of paying down the debt either through refinancing or using internally generated funds to pay down debt. And then for CapEx allocation, we will align CapEx basically according to the profit contribution of the BUs -- of the business units. So more allocation will be provided for our investment projects, more particularly malls, hotels and other -- logistics segments.

Thank you, Mr. Kerwin. Another question from Richard Laneda: Do you have enough inventory on the luxury premium?

Yes, we answered it.

PHP 18 billion for the joint venture projects.

Okay. And then another question from Neil Franco of Abacus: Can you please detail the impact of the GoTyme reclassification and the lower ownership in RCR from April to August?

Okay. The lower ownership of GoTyme is -- basically, our ownership last year was 20%. We owned 20% of GoTyme. And as GoTyme has new investors coming in, we did not fully -- we did not subscribe to the shares. So eventually, our ownership went down from 20% to 19%. And henceforth because at 20%, per accounting policies, we are required to equitize the share in profit gain or loss. So if we go down to 19%, we basically reverse previous shares in net losses, and it ultimately resulted to a gain. Because of 19%, the investment -- the record is -- our record is classified as an investment in joint ventures rather than an equitization of the figures.

Second question from -- again, from Neil: How much of the deferred gains on land sales were booked in 2024 versus 2023? And how much was deferred gain will still be recognized?

Okay. The deferred gain that was recorded in 2024 was PHP 572 million. And then for 2023, the deferred gain was PHP 538 million. So the remaining balance, which will be realized in the succeeding years is PHP 1.3 billion.

Thank you, Mr. Kerwin. From Patricia Nicole Aquino from First Metro: I might have missed this, but may I ask for more color on the company's reservation sale for the fourth quarter and full year?

For the fourth quarter, the reservation sales was PHP 4.16 billion. And for the full year, it's PHP 7.2 billion.

Okay. Last 3 questions on the chat box. So from Francis Paul Padit: Could you provide more insight into the malls footfall growth last year?

Okay. Footfall is up versus 2023 by -- up 11%.

Thank you, Sir Far. Another one from Francis Paul Padit: Would also like to ask the percentage shares of foreigners in total presales.

Foreign sales for full year 2024 is at 30%.

Yes. And then the rest will be locals. We don't have the data for the OFWs. Another question from Abacus: Is there a plan to inject more assets into RCR this year?

Yes, there's -- there are -- there will be a plan to inject more assets, but it will depend on market conditions.

Thank you. And then we go back to the raised hand queue. David Gambrill of NTAsset, you may now ask your question.

Okay. Can you hear me okay?

Yes, we can hear you, David.

Congratulations on a pretty solid set of results. Just a quick question. The PHP 52 billion backlog or unrecognized revenues you mentioned, you've -- obviously, that's net of the PHP 8 billion in cancellations. I'm just wondering if you can provide any comments on the quality of that remaining PHP 52 billion backlog and also the timing? As you say, it sounds like a lot of that will start to come through in the second half of this year. And then is it really concentrated in the next couple of years after that? So just some color on the quality or your confidence in that backlog and the timing, please?

I guess to provide -- it's really difficult to provide the quality of buyers given that the construct -- from the time the buyer reserves their unit to the time to the turnover, it typically takes about 6 years, right? So it's really difficult. The quality of buyers may be okay right now, but the conditions -- well, for whatever reason, the buyer might decide to cancel. But what we are doing right now prospectively and -- is that we are basically doing a prescreen of the buyers that will reserve our units. And hopefully, this will -- this -- the standing of the buyers will continue until such time of turnover.

Right. So can I just clarify? What you're saying here is that -- because I appreciate the future is uncertain. But in your opinion, at the moment, the quality of that PHP 52 billion is okay.

Yes. We believe that it's okay because I think the -- basically, the huge cancellations that we undertook in the third quarter probably weeded out the very weak buyers.

And then I was asking about the timing because, obviously, the PHP 52 billion, I know the construction period is very long in the Philippines, up to 6 years. But it's got to tail off at the end. So is it really the -- from 2026, '27, '28, like those 3 years, is that where the majority of that PHP 52 billion will come through?

We believe so as most of those projects covered by the standby revenues will start to be turned over in the coming years, starting latter half of this year.

But you're recognizing on percentage of completion, aren't you? So it doesn't so much matter, the turnover date. It's more the construction timing.

Yes, we recognize revenues based on the percentage of completion. But as you turn over the -- as we turn over the units faster, the -- sorry, as the units become completed and ready for turnover, the percentage of completion will definitely increase.

Okay. We have another question on the queue from Jelline Gaza.

Jelline again. I just have a question on the composition of the unsold inventory. I understand 80% is NCR mix. This is for the organic or RLC-branded projects. But how much of this would you consider as part of core or mid-market?

For a while, Jelline. We're just checking.

Okay. No problem. And while we're waiting, I'd just like to understand the overall strategy on horizontal participation. Ms. Mybelle, you mentioned earlier that you would like to capitalize on this growth prospect, but unsold inventory today is just around PHP 6 billion coming from horizontal. Would there be any key locations that you have identified and fully committed new launches for the year to help increase your -- or increase presence in the horizontal market?

Sure, Jelline. But just to answer your first question, 60% of our inventory is for, the balance being premium -- organic inventory. Now to your question on the horizontal projects, we have about PHP 6 billion worth of inventory, which we intend to sell aggressively through -- as you would have been told last year, we have done a merger of our vertical business and our Homes horizontal business. So the Homes pipeline of -- Homes inventory is benefiting from the number of sellers that the vertical business has. And as we move forward and the current inventory of horizontal developments get depleted, we are considering launching a couple of projects. We've identified a location in the Visayas and one in the Mindanao area.

Understood. So there's still appetite to launch. It's just that you will be selective on location and type of project.

I see.

Okay. And then sorry to keep harping on the office, but I'd like to understand because there's a lot of new -- well, there's still new towers. Is the lag in the resident -- in the revenues, rather, because of the -- of a longer rent-free period? And if that's the case, what would be the "new normal" level of EBITDA margin that we should expect for this segment?

Jelline, I think that was just a one-off. We historically maintained around an 85%, 86% margin. So we're expecting that for this year as we fill up our new buildings to offset the fixed costs that are not being paid by the tenants in the building.

So it's not really a question on the rent-free period, but rather an occupancy constraint for the newer buildings. Is that the right way of reading it?

It's a mix of both, Jelline, yes.

Okay. And rent-free period today is how long?

3 to 4 months.

Just 3 to 4 months. Okay. It's pretty short compared to peers.

[ Against ] the takeout period, Jelline.

Jelline, just to add, our office revenues actually increased, just to clarify, because I think I mentioned -- you mentioned it's a decrease.

Okay. Okay. And I think lastly, on buyback, any thoughts on the interplay between capital allocation between buyback and dividends? We've had a slew of new corporates announcing bigger buyback budget. How is management thinking about that? Or are you seeing special dividends?

I think in the bigger context, given the current financial environment, we intend to take a disciplined approach to capital allocation across 3 key areas. First, we will ensure sufficient capital deployment to fund our expansions, aligning with the EBIT contribution of each business. So we will be prioritizing investment projects to drive sustainable growth. At the same time, to answer your question, we will maintain a strategic balance between share buybacks and competitive dividend payouts.

Thank you, Jelline. That's all? Or Jelline -- okay. Due to time, we may not be able to answer some of your questions, but you can continue to get in touch with me or touch base with me after the call. We would like to have again the floor to our new appointed President and CEO, Mr. -- Ms. Mybelle for his -- for her closing remarks.

Good afternoon again to everyone. As reported by the team, RLC demonstrated strong resilience and agility in 2024, with our investment portfolio contributing 77% of consolidated revenues and 85% of EBITDA, reinforcing the company's strength in recurring income. A key milestone was the successful completion of the country's largest single multi-asset infusion into our REIT company, elevating RCR's value to PHP 92 billion. For our investment portfolio, our malls continue to deliver outstanding performance, demonstrating resilience even amid temporary early closures due to the numerous typhoons in the second half of the year. We will be cautious on building new office developments until market conditions stabilize, allowing the company to be well positioned for future demand. However, we will continue to look for opportunities to expand our office portfolio through build-to-suit arrangements. The hotel segment remains a bright spot, benefiting from the continued resurgence of the tourism industry. And meanwhile, our logistics facilities stand as the fastest-growing and the highest-yielding segment. With strong demand fueling this momentum, we remain aggressive in our expansion efforts to maximize its contribution to the company's long-term success. For our development portfolio, in our residential segment, we are strategically deferring project launches to better align with market demand while implementing measures to enhance sales quality and reducing our RFO inventory as committed in the previous quarter. Hence, we have recently introduced lease-to-own and financing options as well as exclusive Gokongwei Group employee and partner packages, leveraging over 100,000 target buyers in the Gokongwei Group ecosystem. These initiatives are expected to drive faster inventory turnover, strengthen brand loyalty and foster long-term tenant and employee retention, ultimately balancing any near-term revenue recognition moderation as well as enhancing revenue stability and future growth. Further to that, we maintain a substantial pipeline of standby revenues to be recognized in the coming quarters. For CapEx, in 2025, we will take a strategic yet disciplined approach to capital expenditures with a total budget of PHP 24 billion. The majority will be allocated to investment-driven projects that will strengthen our recurring income base. Our focus remains on expanding and enhancing our existing portfolio by prioritizing high-return investments and sustaining long-term growth while maintaining financial prudence. As we embark on a strategic capital allocation policy, we will allocate more capital to our strong investment portfolio such as malls, hotels and logistics. Our future land bank purchases will be geared towards adding or complementing our existing and new Destination Estates. RLC remains committed to delivering strong performance amid external challenges, applying agile strategies to drive long-term sustainable growth and ensuring our assets are promptly utilized and converted into revenue-generating sources. Thank you for your continued support and participation.

Thank you, everyone. You may all disconnect.