Robinsons Retail Holdings, Inc. (RRHI) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Good afternoon, everybody. Thank you for joining us to review the -- our company's unaudited results for the full year of 2023. I'm Gina Roa-Dipaling, the company's investor relations officer. The participants from our company for this call are the following: our President and CEO, Mr. Robina Gokongwei-Pe; our COO, Stanley Co; our CFO, Mylene Kasiban; the Group General Manager of Robinsons Supermarket and No Brand, Christine Tueres; the Group General Manager of the Drugstore segment, Joanne Arceo; the Group General Manager of Robinsons Department Store & Toys, Celina Chua; the Group General Manager of DIY and Pets, Ted Sogono; the General Manager of Uncle John's, Donna Leoncio; the Group General Manager of Appliances Business, Jovi Santos. This presentation will cover the company's financial performance for the full year of 2023, an update on our store network and our company's recent developments. A Q&A session will follow after the presentation. As a reminder, for the Q&A session, kindly use the Raise Hand function if you would like to ask your questions live or please use the Q&A function on your Zoom [indiscernible] your questions. Kindly limit your questions of maximum of 3 [indiscernible] into the call or into the Q&A [indiscernible] questions. With that, I will turn you over to our president and CEO.

Good afternoon. Here are the highlights of our results for the full year 2023. Consolidated net sales grew by 7.4% to PHP 192.1 billion. Blended same-store sales growth of 3.9%. Gross profit increased by 7.9% to PHP 45.6 billion. EBIT of PHP 8.9 billion, up by 2.3%. Core net earnings were slightly higher by 0.6% to PHP 5.6 billion. Net income to parent declined by 29.5% to PHP 4.1 billion. Capital expenditures of PHP 4.2 billion. Consolidated net sales for the fourth quarter came in at PHP 53.9 billion, up by 4.2%. Blended SSSG continued to normalize in the fourth quarter due the impact of the inflation on a high base in the previous year. Full year net sales reached PHP 192.1 billion, higher by 7.4% with SSSG at 3.9%. The business units that posted net average -- above average net sales growth for the year were drugstores and department stores. This is a more detailed picture of our P&L for the full year. Gross margin expanded by 11 bps compared 23.8% for better product assortment and increased standards of work. EBIT rose by 2.3% to PHP 8.9 billion, a strategic growth and gross margin expansion were offset by higher OpEx from new stores. Net income to parent declined by 29.5% to PHP 4.1 billion. The decline is mainly due to the following: one, reversal of ForEx gains were PHP 357 million in 2022 to a PHP 65 million loss in 2023 due to the appreciation of the peso; and two, reversal of the equitized earnings in 2022 amounting to positive PHP 14 million to PHP 708 million loss in 2023 with the derecognition of Robinsons Bank's net income under equitized earnings following the merger with BPI; and three, losses from start-up investments. Meanwhile, we note that our investment in BPI yielded a net positive carrying in 2023. Significantly better than earlier [indiscernible] borrowing remain with the purchase of BPI shares. Our core earnings, which exclude ForEx, interest income from bonds, losses from associates, interest expense and dividends related to the BPI shares ending at PHP 5.6 million, up by 0.6%. In terms of contribution, the staples business, that's mainly supermarket, drugstores and convenient stores amounted for 77% of total sales and 79% of total EBITDA in 2023. Meanwhile, our discretionary formats, mainly department stores, DIY stores and specialty stores comprise 23% of total sales and 21% of total EBITDA. Our store count in the Philippines stood at 2,393 as of December 31, 2023, composed of 349 supermarkets, 1,054 drugstores, 50 department stores, 230 DIY stores, 408 convenient stores and 302 specialty stores. We also have 2,127 franchise stores of [ NVP ]. In 2023, we added 84 net new stores, but most of the new stores came from supermarkets and drugstores. Now Christine Tueres, Group GM of Robinsons Supermarket will be starting Supermarket segment.

Supermarket net sales increased by 7.4% in 2023 to PHP 208.6 billion, driven by new stores and full year same-store sales growth of 3.2%, which benefited from the double digit growth in transaction count. We saw a 30 bps improvement in new gross GPM in fourth quarter of 2023 to 21.7% due to higher sales of important products and increased [ standard ] score. This allowed our full year GPM to settle at 21.7% flat year-on-year. Excluding the impact of grocery, which now accounts for almost 10% of supermarket sales, segment gross margin will have increased by 40 bps in 2023. EBITDA rose by 10.3% to PHP 9.4 billion, supported by resilient topline growth and efficient cost management. Now I turn you over to Joanne for the Drugstore segment.

Drugstore net sales grows by [ 13.2% ] in 2023 to PHP 33.4 billion, a robust SSSG and incremental sales from new stores. Blended SSSG of Southstar Drug and Rose Pharmacy came in at 7.1% for the full year. Growth was driven by sustained demand for prescription drugs, particularly maintenance medications, while OTC cough and cold medicines and antihistamines also performed well. Gross margin expanded by 70 bps to 21% in 2023, which we attribute to the increased penetration of house brands and better category mix. Strong topline growth augmented by GPM expansion, allowed EBITDA to grow by 13.1% to PHP 3 billion in 2023 in line with the increase in net sales. And I'll turn you over to Celina for Department Store segment.

Net sales of the department store segment grew by 8.2% in 2023 to PHP 16.3 billion. Same-store sales normalized to 7%. Categories related to back-to-school travel and sports drove the top line. Gross margin improved by 40 bps to 30.6% due to higher mix of higher-margin categories. EBITDA was flattish in 2023, ending the year at PHP 1.3 billion. Healthy top line trends, coupled with gross margin improvements were offset by higher OpEx from rent, manpower and utilities. Let me turn you over now to Ted for the DIY segment.

The DIY segment posted slightly lower top line trends in 2023. Intense competition and the decline in demand for [indiscernible] items like home and kitchen products affected the EBITDA. Competition in the dog food segment, one of our core categories, has also intensified with more players entering the market in recent years. Excluding pet food sales, DIY segment net sales would have increased 25.5% in 2023. Gross margin was slightly down from 31.1% in 2022 to 20.8% in 2023 due to markdowns in kitchen categories. EBITDA declined by 20% to PHP 1.2 billion in 2023 due to lower SSSG and higher OpEx from rent, utilities and manpower. I'll turn you over to Donna of Uncle John's.

Good afternoon. Uncle John's was able to post 5.6% same-store sales growth and 4.4% growth in net sales to PHP 6.2 billion in 2023. We attribute the strong performance of our CBD-located branches and resilient demand for our RPE categories. The continued growth of our higher margin RPE business led to gross margin plus other income expanding from 38.2% in 2022 to 38.5% in 2023. EBITDA recovered by 16.8% to PHP 161 million in fourth quarter of 2023 due to an improvement in sales mix while we were able to generate cost savings from rent and repairs and maintenance. For the full year, the decline in the segment's EBITDA narrowed to minus 2% to PHP 569 million. I'll turn you over now to Mr.Jovi.

Good afternoon. The Specialty segment's revenues decreased by 3.5% to PHP 15.2 billion in 2023, with full year SSSG of 2.4%. Toys and pet retail delivered double-digit revenue growth in 2023. Revenues of our appliances and electronics business was flat in 2023 has increased out-of-home activities led to lower demand for some of our categories that did well during the pandemic. Full year gross margin for the Specialty segment improved by 20 bps to 26.6% due to increased weather support, higher DC fees and changes in product mix. EBITDA declined by 24.7% to PHP 990 million in 2023 due to an increase in OpEx. The next speaker is Mylene.

Thanks, Jovi. Moving on to our working capital, our receivable days, inventory days, payable days all steady in 2023. Our cash cycle was largely unchanged year-on-year at 13.8 weeks. On our balance sheet, we are in a net debt position of PHP 4.7 billion as of December 2023, with borrowings at PHP 21.4 billion largely through the acquisition financing of the BPI shares in January last year. As of December 2023, our debt related -- the BPI share purchase amounted to PHP 13.3 billion. Despite our net debt position, our balance sheet remained strong with a net debt to equity ratio only 0.06. ROA and ROE in a trailing 12 months basis came in at 2.8% and 5.6%, respectively, in 2023. These are lower than the figures in 2022 due to the decline in net income to parent. Organic CapEx for all segments in 2023 is at PHP 4.2 billion, 61% of the CapEx budget in 2023, CapEx spend went to the Supermarket business, 10% for drug stores, 9% for the department stores, 8% each for DIY and specialty and 4% for CBS. Moving onto our balance sheet, we are in a net debt position of PHP 4.7 billion. Now I'll turn it over to Stan.

Thank you, Mylene. I now want to update you on some recent corporate developments. On January 1, 2024, the merger with BPI and Robinsons Bank, to the former as surviving entity officially took place. We now effectively own 6.5% of BPI and will be entitled for a board seat in the back. With the merger, BPI should be able to provide our suppliers with more finance and schemes to service our needs. We also expect to see more promotional tie-ups such as BPI credit cards, for example. We opened our 400th Rose Pharmacy at [indiscernible] Cebu last January 29, marking not only our efforts in continuous growth and expansion but also underscoring our commitment to providing accessible health care and wellness solutions to communities nationwide. We now have 651 Southstar Drug, 403 Rose Pharmacy stores, and 2,127 franchise TGP stores. In collaboration with the DFI Retail Group, we formally launched the official entry of the Meadows plant in the Philippines at Shopwise in Paranaque City last December. Meadows is DFI Retail's multi-awarded private label brand of high-quality food and drinks, common kitchen essentials and health and beauty products sourced from all over the world and so the great value for money. We marked a significant milestone as we celebrated our 10th anniversary as a publicly listed company last November 13, 2023. We celebrated the official bell ringing ceremony at the Philippine Stock Exchange on November 23, with the directors and officers of PSE and RRHI. We are currently a [indiscernible] of the PSE midcap index and the PSE dividends yield index. We completed our first ever ESG external assurance in 2023 covering 2022 data, reflecting our dedication and capital sustainability, corporate responsibility and transparent business practices. Our external assurers, FGV and company thoroughly reviewed data, policies and procedures to ensure alignment with global ESG standards. We are also ramping up preparations for our next assurance. Next, we are happy to announce the following appointments of key officers. Back in January, Stephen Yap has been appointed as the head of innovation, prior to his new assignment, Stephen our RRHI's Chief Information Officer for 8 years. Succeeding Stephen as CIO is Jose Maria [ Katanghal ], Jon has been with RRHI for 7 years. He was AVP for project management and SAP delivery head in 2018 and was appointed deputy CIO in 2022. Effective February, Joanne Arceo has been appointed Group General Manager for our Drugstore segment comprise of Southstar Drug, Rose Pharmacy and TGP. She was appointed GM of TGP in June 2022 and will continue to be in TGP with regard to her role as Group GM. Michael So has been appointed General Manager of Rose Pharmacy effective January this year. Mike was Group Operations Manager for Robinsons Supermarket in Visayas, Mindanao before he was appointed Deputy GM for Rose Pharmacy in June 2021. Donna Leoncio has also been appointed as General Manager of Uncle John's effective February. Donna has been AVP for merchendizing of our Convenience Store segment since 2011. And finally, Christine Sanchez has been appointed Deputy General Manager of Toys ‘R’ Us, also effective February. She has been with Robinsons Retail for 21 years. She was AVP for merchandising of Robinsons Department for 2011 and also appointed AVP of merchandizing of Toys ‘R’ Us in 2019. Moving to our guidance for 2024. We are looking at an extra addition of 100 to 120. Meanwhile, we are aiming for a blended SSSG of 3% to 5%. For margins, we are guiding for 10 to 20 bps gross GPL expansion. This takes into account the impact of gross earning. And finally, we are earmarking PHP 4 billion to 6 billion for organic capital expenditures. This ends our presentation for the full year results. We will now open the virtual floor with Q&As. Thank you.

[Operator Instructions] The first question is from Karisa Magpayo of Macquarie. The first is net store additions appear to have fallen short of guidance for 2023 of 120 to 160. So what's the reason for this?

The -- I mean shortfall is coming from the ground source and CDS. CDS, mainly because we closed the nonperforming stores and [indiscernible] drugstores, a number of the stores actually will slide in first quarter of this year hopefully.

Right. And then Karisa's second question is what is the revenue -- sales contribution of RPE in 2023?

For Uncle John's, the share business of RPE was at 39%.

Thank you. And then her third question is on specialty. So what led to the year-on-year decline in gross margin in the fourth quarter of 2023?

Just the lower sales on sales mix, especially categories that performed well, the previous year due to the pandemic.

Right. Thank you. Next question is from Joyce of CLSA. Can you break down store expansion guidance by [indiscernible]?

For full [indiscernible] including CDS to be a total of 25 to 30 stores. Drugstores must be around 70 to 80, department store around one, new one, and general store 5 to 10 stores.

Okay. Thank you. And then Joyce, it's a follow-up question on any update on your investments such as [indiscernible] and BPMNL and others?

For BPMNL, we have fully written off our investment in the fourth quarter of last year. For wholesale -- sorry, what kind of update? Can you please elaborate the question for the kind of update you like? Such as additional investments or what?

Okay. Next set of questions from Stephen of China Bank. Number one, can you share what lead to the faster expansion and attributable net income relative to operating income in the fourth quarter? And the second question is what led to the quarter-on-quarter gross margin decline in the fourth quarter?

It's just the timing of the dividend.

Yes, because when we see the second semester [indiscernible] for BPI and whiteware.

Yes. Well, the second question [indiscernible] margin decline in the fourth quarter. I think this is for [indiscernible]. You can see Karisa Mangpubat of [indiscernible] Partners is raising her hand. Karisa, we will now unmute you.

I just wanted to clarify, was it mentioned earlier that total associate income for full year was PHP 708 million, is that correct? If not, what's the correct figure? And if you could just break it down piece across the various associates like GoTyme, OC, et cetera? That's my first question.

Karisa Mangpubat, it's from GoTyme.

Sorry, the bulk of the PHP 708 million is GoTyme?

Yes.

Okay. And then my second question is on -- particularly on the 4Q SSSG. So for supermarkets, it's flat. So slowed down in the fourth quarter. What's driving that? Like if you could just break it down in terms of maybe traffic and ticket size, and any trends that you're seeing going into first quarter, particularly for supermarkets?

Actually, there are same-store sales growth for supermarket in October and November of 2022 was like around 15% with [indiscernible] and then in December, it was around 10%. So it's really kind of a very high base.

Okay. So is it more of smaller tickets? Or is it still a...

It's driven by transaction count -- sorry transaction count is up, basket size is down.

Okay. And then I guess my final question is on -- similarly for Drugstores -- sorry, Drugstores and DIY. If I look at 4Q, how would we break this down for Drugstores at the 8.6%? How would we break that down between transaction count and ticket size and similarly for DIY segment of negative 3% for the fourth quarter?

Transaction count is up 5%. That's for Drugstore in fourth quarter and the balance would be basket size. Did you get it, Karisa?

Yes. And then for DIY, the negative 3%?

DIY, transaction count is slightly down and basket size is slightly up.

Thank you, Karisa. Next several questions will be from Bernadine of JPMorgan. This is for a supermarket, can you share more color on the main drivers of deceleration in SSSG in fourth part. I think this was asked already. Her next question, can you provide your own commentaries regarding competition in the Grocery and Retail segment.

Well, I think, generally, it's -- the supermarket segment is -- the competition is getting very aggressive, particularly coming from the high discount operators.

Maybe last questions from Joyce. I think she supplemented her earlier question. So I think what will be the key drivers of margin expansion for this year? Can you comment on this by division?

I think generally for retail in the category mix, increased penetration for important products [indiscernible] and also for our private label, all across the board.

Okay. Next is from Ton. Aside from dividend income, can you share progress on other synergies/developments to BPI so far and plan for further development in the coming years?

I think we have started to decide already for the credit card and it will be launched soon and supplier loans for our vendors. And then...

Okay. Next -- second questions with me from a [indiscernible]. Can you share the private label contribution of supermarket -- for supermarkets? And are we still seeing trends of down trading, particularly on the smaller formats?

Okay. For the private label -- this is [indiscernible]. For the private label contribution -- it's around 6.5%, down trending for the period of 4 months. Yes.

Next question from Changhong. What is the progress on GoTyme? Any timeline for breakeven and whether Robinsons Retail would inject more capital?

For GoTyme based on their plans, they're looking at -- we can breakeven in 2025. That's actually one of the fastest in terms of digital bank hitting breakeven after 3 years of operations. Tyme Bank is already the major shareholder of GoTyme, they're already at the positive index after 5 years of operations and the traction for GoTyme is double that of Tyme Bank in South Africa. In terms of capital injection, I think there will be some this year.

Okay. And then Joyce a follow-up questions. This is related to her earlier questions on our investment -- investing companies. So how are they doing in terms of profitability? I think GoTyme has already been answered but maybe for the others.

[ Wholesale, ] I think they need to reach a certain scale in terms of number of stores and percentage of private label products to achieve profitability.

Thank you. Nadine of JPMorgan has follow-up questions. Can you please provide more color on what's driving the slower store rollout guidance for 2024 despite slower actual additions in 2023? Which categories will see slower rollout in 2024? And is this because of soft demand or oversaturation of stores in the market or some regulatory backlogs?

I think for us, they just be realistic in terms of store targets, internally, they are higher targets.

All right. Thank you. And then Kimberly Ng of BDO Trust has 2 questions. First one, which investments in particular, led to the negative equity and net earnings in fourth quarter? I think this was answered already, this is mostly from GoTyme. Her second question is the contribution of GrowSari sales -- the supermarket sales increased sequentially in the fourth quarter of 2023. And should we expect this to increase further in 2024?

Yes, it's increasing. GrowSari sales contribution is increasing. Net sales is growing at high teens.

All right. Next question is from [indiscernible]. What is Meadows as a percent of supermarket sales? What percent of supermarket sales do you think Meadows can grow to? And what are the margins -- gross margins like for Meadows?

We only started to launch Meadows last year, but it already contributed like half a percent of sales -- total supermarket sales. It's attractive versus the [indiscernible] sale.

Thank you. Next, from [indiscernible]. Could you comment on [ Wholesave ] starting on expansion targets?

I think they are very similar model with [ Dali ] where they're opening more than 100, 200 stores a year and it's very, very similar business model.

All right. Next, Stephen, again, of China Bank. I have a couple of follow-up questions for me. Number one, we note that year-on-year consolidated sales expansion moderated since the first quarter of 2023. So what will you attribute this? And do you see this -- do you see this around mid-single-digit sales expansion to hold over the coming quarters? That's his first question.

I think the sales growth in 2023 is largely independent on the same-store sales growth. Because in 2022, the level is so high so the growth rate in terms of total sales is actually like pre-teens, largely driven by same-store sales growth, which was around 11%, 12%.

All right. And then Stephen's second question is, can you share your outlook for the industry for 2024, especially between essential and discretionary format?

We can only speak for our business. For the essential format, I think you will go out to normal in terms of same-store sales growth, between 3% to 5%. Discretionary format coming from a high base and also looking at a higher teens per sales growth -- at high teens -- sorry at high single digit.

Okay. Next question is from Daphne of Maybank Securities. So what was the higher effective tax rate in full year 2023 versus full year 2022? And how should we built at FY '24 effective tax?

It's just because the losses from associates are nondeductible, hence the effective tax rate is higher. We should see it lower in normalized in 2024.

Okay. Thank you. Next question from Francis Subido. How should we expect operating margins to trend in the coming quarters? And what initiatives are being done to improve our margins?

For 2023, the reduction in margin is largely because we were enjoying rental concessions in 2022 and there was none in 2023. So there is a big jump in terms of our OpEx relative to the growth in sales. For 2024, the base is already the same because the rent is at normal levels already. So the OpEx growth should be in line or slightly lower than that including sales.

Okay. And Francis Subido have some follow-up questions. Also RRHI has been hitting all time lows in share price recently. Any new initiatives being planned to help boost the share price and shareholder value?

One of our program is the share buyback program, we've been like supporting our share price since the start of 2020 up to last year. And we already purchased like PHP 6.4 billion from the share buyback program.

Great. Okay. Next set of questions maybe from [indiscernible]. What portion of interest expense was attributable to financing to the BPI share purchase in the fourth quarter and for FY '23? Any guidance on target loan repayments that you are looking at for this year?

Yes, around half would be for the BPI-related loans. We're looking at PHP 2 billion to PHP 3 billion this year.

Thank you. Next, Joyce of CLSA. Some follow-up questions. This is on the DIY segment. So what trends are you seeing for DIY? Can you comment on the competitive landscape and consumer behavior for this division?

I think for DIY, we'll be able to bounce back this year. And for the competitive landscape, I think what affect us most is the [indiscernible], which we think that is able to recover this year.

Okay. Thank you, Ted. I can see -- Joyce, you almost have more questions. Are you looking to tap into local manufacturers to roll out private label products as opposed to imported private label brands? What's the thought process? We're partnering more with imported private labels instead of with local players.

Well, I guess the plan is to tap both, right? It's to take advantage of what's available locally and, of course, options to buy from foreign vendors as well.

Next will be from Nadine. How are we reacting to intensifying competition in grocery, retail. We had Puregold announcing nationwide prices cuts in selected SKUs. How are promotions shared by retailers and manufacturers?

So we're carefully looking at that as well. We're carefully looking at our prices right now versus market. Then again, I think what's more important for us is we are -- we're projecting our gross margins. Yes. So I guess the best option that we're doing right now is we get support from my local vendors.

Right. Thank you. Nadine has another question on is management thinking about the capital allocation strategy, especially in light of the recurrent and profit plan of the portfolio investments [indiscernible]. Are you revisiting your capital allocation decisions? And if yes, can you expand on the company's decision-making dynamics?

In terms of capital allocation, while still we stand on CapEx, I think we are only allowing less than a PHP 1 billion for investments this year.

Okay. Next question is from Daniel. Do you have any data on market share trends in the fourth quarter 2023, especially with regards to the supermarket segment? Next question will be from Paola Lopez. Thank you for the presentation. A couple of questions from me. The first one, are the issues faced last year that resulted in delays in store opening still present today? And her second question is, what's the strategy amid more aggressive competition from hard discounters?

I think for store openings, we have the practically the same issues year-after year. We have to find a building that's ready for lease. And since we do not own the land and do not build our own buildings, we have to look for buildings that are ready for commercial development and access any building that is a building. It has to have good parking, it has to have a good frontage, it has to service a best community, and there are other factors in choosing for a good location.

Strategy amid more aggressive competition, especially the hard discounters?

Hard discounters do not significantly impact our supermarkets as we cater to different markets. So while hard discounters may focus on cost conscious consumers seeking the lowest prices for essential products, our supermarket actually positions ourselves to broader demographics. So operating a diverse range of products being as in a more comprehensive shopping experience.

Thank you. Next set of questions, again, from [indiscernible]. What is the outlook for the Drugstore business in 2024, [indiscernible] single digit growth? I think he's referring to SSSG and still setting the same trends?

Yes, sir, quite positive periods of outlook this year. Mid- to high-single digits for Drugstore segment.

Thank you. Question from Nadine, JPMorgan. Grocery contribution is increasing, but it has been dilution of the margins. At what point or what needs to happen before it becomes accretive to margins?

Exactly the impact of margins, but it's not losing money, it's still delivering positive EBIT for us. But in terms of scale, it actually increase our scale so we are trying to get additional markets on our Supermarket business. That's why if you exclude grocery, our margins actually for supermarket is up four digits.

Great. Next question is from Nathan Sy. Now can we ask about Uncle John's, how is the convenience store business or any expansion plans that you can share?

Okay. For 2024, our plan is to increase store count by about 20 stores. However, one of our strategies is to update the look of our topline stores there over 10 years, old already. So we will have around 30 stores under innovation for 2024.

Thank you. And then we have another question from of Kimberly Ng of BDO Trust. So what drove the PHP 303 million lost under others, below operating income down in the fourth quarter?

[indiscernible] some other small provisions.

Okay. Next question is from [indiscernible]. Can you elaborate a bit on the current share buy program and whether there will be a new program in light of the recent weakness in the share price?

We just announced an additional PHP 1 billion share buyback program. Out of that PHP 1 billion, we already purchased PHP 400 million plus, so we are left with PHP 600 million.

Sure. And then, Rainier Yu, any indications of debt payments for this year, given higher expenses.

We have all this declaring a 40% payout -- about 40% payout from the cash dividend of RRHI. I think that this will be flat. We are flat in terms of absolute [indiscernible] for the dividend for this year.

And then we had some questions from [ Philips ] of Philippine Equity Partners. These were e-mailed right here. So what is the outstanding balance of the long term that used for the purchase of the BPI shares as of December 2023? And what is the term in tenure?

Okay. It's PHP 13.3 billion. It's share price on a quarterly basis at 6.75%.

That will be maturing on 2028. But we can prepay the loan sometime in 2026.

In part 2 of Philip's question, separate questions, given the completion of the merger between BPI and Robinsons Bank, can you confirm when will RRHI be entitled for a board seat in BPI?

I think we will seek presentation, having 6.5% stake in BPI. We will seek representation for board seating in BPI. In any case, BPI will make an announcement for a new board member.

Thank you, Gina. Joyce Ramos, CLSA, has few more questions. Can you give us an update on BPMNL. How much were the loses for this business?

I think we mentioned last year's call at a total of PHP 150 million, yes, during the 3Q call.

So at this point, there are no more questions from the virtual floor, and we can now end this call, Ms. Mylene?

Thank you very much, and see you on the next earnings call.