Ryman Hospitality Properties, Inc. ($RHP)

Panel here, which is our REIT panel, and I'm very excited to have both Ryman and Diamond Rock here today.

And really, I think that where I'd like to start off here is that we often hear that REITs get lock it into a single kind of category, a single macro category. But I think that -- each of you have a very different business in a lot of ways. So maybe if you can just talk to what sets each of the companies, apart from just the broader REIT universe. And then also maybe a little bit about some of the strategic priorities that you're pursuing that you think will continue to differentiate the businesses.

I'll start.

We'll start closest, say any of my cynicism doesn't apply to Mark here.

But I mean, I would say particularly when you look at the public market for hotel region, and I do sort of put Ryman sort of in its own special category, but when you look at it like the majority of the companies that are out there tend to be brand managed, and that's where we -- I think we're a little bit different. We really ascribed to have more flexibility and control in our portfolio. So we are -- we have about 95% of our hotels unencumbered by brand management, and we also have about 1/3 of the portfolio that is just independent of brands. And again, that comes back to control, whether it's the strategic direction of your asset, control over CapEx cash of the properties, we tend to be able to drive better margins. But to be clear, it's not the same for every asset that exists in the industry is for the types of assets that we go after that we think we can be more profitable. So that's how we're really in ourselves versus our peers.

For Roman, we operate 2 very, very unique businesses. our core business, the hotel business, we focus on large destination assets that really service the group customer and then also the leisure transient customer. And then we also own and operate an entertainment business it's focused on the country lifestyle consumer. So 2 businesses that are very focused on very specific consumer groups, very unique assets, really irreplaceable assets. From a brand perspective, -- it's another thing that makes us unique. All of our hotels are branded with Marriott and operated by Marriott. And having that single owner and manager is an important part of what we do because about 66% of our revenue is recurring as we rotate these customers from market to market year-by-year. And so having consistent ownership where you have economics aligned and having consistent management where you have the same service model is critically important for us.

What do you think is the most important KPI that you track? And maybe what is the most overlooked that you'd want investors to think about?

I mean for us, in terms of what we look at and think about every day is really is our booking base as we look at -- as we look long term, what does that book of business look like when you look out over the next 4, 5, 6, 10 years. What rate is it trading at? And are we on the right demand curve to hit the beginning of the year at 50 points of occupancy that -- we entered the year with 50 points on the books. In the short run, we really monitor group behavior -- so lead volume outside-the-room spending, those types of attrition and cancellation behavior. That really gives us the shorter-term view of what's happening in our business.

Yes. I would say it's not too dissimilar. We're not as group heavy as Ryman is. But we're about 1/3 of our portfolio's group, and we entered the year with about 70% of our business for the year on the books. It is booking pace that I think that's where you begin to see hotel folks get more confident when they feel like they're getting a little more confidence or visibility, I should say, in the future. And it even matters on like traditionally transient hotels. A lot of our resort properties. We do not rely on group business, you can ultimately yield managed to higher profitability, I think, over time. But the booking windows are different for that and it is a large group that have I think the booking pace is a big part of that. I mean at a very macro level, it's going to be things like private fixed investments, big one, employment, it tends to be a big driver of demand in the industry. I thought you might take it a different way. We had earlier somebody brought up in our private equity panel that RevPAR sounds great. bookings sounds good, but wages going up in a number of markets cost to renovate cost to build going up.

So ROI was something that they were trying to ask. Are you seeing any improvement there? I mean how do you think about actively return on invested capital and the trajectory there and what's going to drive that?

It's a big focus for us. I mean, we, in the last 2 or 3 years, have really become to the point of being as being a bit of a broken record, really kind of a free cash flow per share driven business. And there's a lot of steps that we can take, whether it's distancing ourselves in some situations where, frankly, being branded doesn't work for that hotel or it's just trying to be much more cost effective around the capital that's required at those properties because the CapEx is oftentimes required by a brand to be consistent with their brand standard does not make sense for every hotel. It will make sense for some, but not all. And so we try to be diligent about where we choose the brand and where we choose not to. So from, I would say, an ROI standpoint, I think that's where you will see more variation or polarization to whether it's pencils or not.

Look, I mean, to the point you made, costs are increasing, right? But if you look at our advanced bookings, we're growing rate at mid-single digits out for the next several years. And that's really being driven by a couple of factors. One, in our segment, there is really no new supply. These are really tough assets to build. They take a long time and they will require incentives. The other aspect is from our capital deployment strategy, having these big platforms allows us to deploy incremental capital into these hotels to drive high-return projects. And so -- and that's what's really driving a lot of our rate growth as we position these properties more and more up to premium scale. We can drive higher rates.

We heard from that panel too kind of broad-based strength across a bunch of different types of portfolios. How would you characterize the health of the industry now and the sustainability of some of the trends we perhaps see?

I would say that I think what's surprise is maybe too strong of a word, but I think it's been beneficial this year as it feels to me that this is the first time in years where we've had effectively every demand channel working in the same direction. Business transient, leisure transient group. If you go back to the last 5 years, there is certainly that time in 2021, 2022 when it was all about leisure took off. And then as people came back to the office, you saw corporate transient and group or back and then you can see markets at Florida began to retrace a little bit. It just feels like this year, we came in was really sort of broad-based strength. And when you think about a hotel over the course of a 7-day period, you can't tell it just getting like 5 nights during the work week or 2 nights on the weekend. You really have to have all the days of the week working. And so I think that's been 1 of the reasons why you've had a little bit of inflection this year in fundamentals. It feels like you're finally finding a normal that's more like the days prepandemic?

Yes. And look, group has continued to perform well, whether it's short term when you look at attrition rates or you look at outside-the-room spending, we continue to see groups turning up and spending. Lead volumes are good. We're seeing good rates in terms of future bookings outside the room spending has been terrific. So group is healthy. We've seen good demand out of leisure. -- spring break was positive. Summer seems to be shaping up and we'll see for us, the holiday period, as you know, is important -- important part of our year. So we'll see how that performs in the fourth quarter.

And Mark, just to dig in there a little bit on the group side. How has somebody referenced earlier, I keep going back to another panel, but I'm sorry. I missed. No, it will be interesting to hear your perspective here because there was a comment about the type of group has changed. So they were seeing actually weaker trends in smaller groups, but very, very strong trends in larger groups. I guess, are you seeing that same dynamic play out? Is there a shift in that group mix between association, large corporates or other?

I would tell you, I wouldn't I wouldn't call the small group demand week. What we've seen over the last several years is that most of the growth that's occurring in group business is in large group. So there are more of them and the large groups are getting larger. And so as you look at what the business that we're in with anywhere from 400,000 to 700,000 square feet of meeting space, that large group is really our core customer. And we've seen that for, gosh, the last 3 or 4 years. If you look at the STAR group data, you'll see the same thing, where growth in group is in that big meeting segment.

As demand trends have strengthened, are you seeing any change in the transaction mark that comes along with it?

I'd defer to you. Yes. We have a very specific 1 of these every quarter.

No, there's definitely been an inflection we are earlier today over at the NYU Hotel Conference and I would say it's a pretty striking difference. But if you think of the industry events that tend to bring all the brokers and owners together. It's NYU now and then it's the ALIS Conference in January, I don't loosAngeles. And I would say the prior 3 conferences in early and mid and also early '26. It felt like they were recycling the same sort of book of offerings. This is the first 1 where there's definitely a lot more enthusiasm. One of the brokers said that their activity is up 40% year-to-date. It definitely feels like things are turning a corner. Some of that is when you think of it versus last year, call it, people to April. Last year, when you had Liberation Day I feel like you had multiple impacts in our industry where we are seeing sort of peak all-time lead volume for group, a very low conversion to someone wanting to sign a contract because there was just a lot of uncertainty in the industry with tariffs. And if you're planning like a big trade association event or what have you. At the same time, interest rate spreads blew out on hotels and it took a while. I mean it felt like the stock market recovered and we're still watching that spread come back down. So it just really made transactions difficult. And now you're coming into this year where as borrowing rates are probably 150 basis points tighter than they were this time last year, and there's a lot more visibility on booking trends and patterns this year than there was definitely somewhat crop sea change. I think you're talking that there's probably 2 dozen sort of upper upscale luxury assets in the marketplace. Right now that is more than I've seen in some time and they're probably all spoken for.

Do you want to sell into that strength? Are you more likely to be still interested in acquisitions?

It's a little bit of both. I mean, frankly, like we're -- we have more lines in the water than I think we have historically for disposing of assets. We sold 1 small 1 earlier this year here in New York. And we continue to look at selling assets. But we're also trying to be acquisitive in situations where we can recycle that capital will grow a little faster if it's not our own tariffs.

On the recycling of capital front, maybe moving just to spending on the existing portfolio, what are some of the biggest ROI projects you're each working on? And how do you think about prioritizing where you are spending those dollars.

Yes. Probably our biggest enhancement project right now is at Opryland. We're building about 110,000 square feet of incremental meeting space. We just finished a large food and beverage and events on complex -- and we're in the middle of the full ballroom renovation. So we've got -- in total, that's probably 0.25 billion that we're spending across all those projects at Opryland with the intention of bringing Opryland, it's fit and finish. Up to the level of the rest of the portfolio. That hotel will be 50 years old next year. And to begin to remix that hotel for more premium groups, premium corporate business, that's why we're building the breakout space, but also premium across all segments. So begin to shed some of the lower-rated business that might be in that hotel and higher-rated association, higher rated smart groups, et cetera.

Does that move across the portfolio? Or is that you think that will end up being incremental, you can find out -- find those new kind of meeting weakness folks?

We can find new meetings, but it's also about rotating premium groups that are in our other hotels like at the Rockies. -- who don't rotate through Opryland, we'll now begin to do that. We're seeing that happen.

For us, I mean, we -- for example, last year around this time, we put a property under the knife. We own hotels in Sedona that we ended up upscaling and effectively consolidating them. There were 2 adjacent hotels, but at very different price points, 1 was sort of $1,000 to $1,200 a night and 1 was about $300 million. And it was sort of bringing the $300 on up to the level of the higher end one. And I think publicly, we've said sort of a low double-digit IRR or cash yield on that been surpassing that right out of the block. So that can be very impactful. It's coming from a dollar spend standpoint. It can be a fraction of what you guys are spending. But from an impact to our bottom line, it can be very significant if you're kind of earning a double-digit return on that can add a couple of points to your EBITDA growth.

In my intro remarks this morning, I highlighted that lodging is 1 of the best-performing sectors have been gaming, lodging leisure broadly. It's also outperformed the S&P 500. I think that the hotel REIT space has gotten a little bit of a wrap that something broken as being a public REIT versus perhaps either being private or otherwise. How do you think about the pros and cons of being a public company, hotel REIT? And how has that changed over time?

Well, look, I think that for the types of assets that we own, the public structure is the right structure given the size of these assets, the concentration that you have I think it's -- they're typically not assets that private equity want to hold. From the perspective of being a hotel REIT one of the things that I would love to accomplish is getting people being to think about us a little differently than our hotel REIT just because of the nature of our business, some of the characteristics of it, the growth, the stability it performs more like an infrastructure REIT, frankly, than it does from the car.

No, I think I've watched this industry for a very long time. And I think 10 years ago or longer, it was sort of sufficient just to be branded. That was kind of the differentiator, if you will. And we're going to own large assets or own luxury assets. And I think there is this implied face that ultimately, the owner was somewhat passive in that equation. And you're entrusting the brand is got to do the right thing for you. I would say that being a little facetious. But like I would say that there's many times where the brands are doing the right things for their system, but that doesn't mean that it's good for me. And -- at the end of the day, I always joke that the capitalist. I don't have to believe in their socialism. So it just depends where you want to place your bet. And I think that what's changed in the REIT space, there's no question. It's been a difficult performer, you guys accepted. Over the last few years, and I think that that's changing met I think the market has to realize that it is an active investment strategy that you need to be much more hands-on in influencing what's going on at the property level, also taking a different view on branding and management. It's all about trying to drive value there constantly as opposed to just entrusting that a third party is going to do it your best interest.

Is bargaining power improving from an owner standpoint with the brands?

I think so. I mean we just actually had a franchise agreement at our Westin in Boston come up its 800 hotel at the convention center. It's probably a top 25 convention center market, and there was extraordinarily robust demand because you know they are very focused on unit growth. And so I do think there's a lot more flexibility that we as owners can have. And that's 1 of the things that really differentiates us versus a lot of the more conventional like full-service folks, is that about 1/3 of our portfolio is unbranded and the majority are not brand managed. So to the extent that it's appealing for someone to take key money, that's an option that you have with our assets, then we don't have at our peers.

Mark, how do you think about the relationship with Marriott and how that's evolved over time?

As I said earlier, the manager relationship with us is critical because we operate these as a single portfolio as really as a single almost operating business. And so who we have and what their relationship is with the meeting planners and their reputation is critical. And -- and this goes all the way back to when we converted from an operating company to a REIT in 2012, we get a significant amount of primary research with meeting planners and Marriott was consistently ranked as the #1 manager for large meetings and it's part of what drove us to select them as our manager. I think that given the uniqueness of our portfolio, the scale of it and the capital that we deploy into those assets, it does give us a lot of leverage and buying power with Marriott, but the relationship is quite good. And overall, they do a tremendous job.

And Jeff, you have a chart in your deck, I think, showing higher EBITDA per key of third-party managed properties. -- every asset is a little bit different. And it seems like that's clear from the dichotomy between the 2 businesses. But -- are there situations where brand makes sense in your portfolio?

For sure, for sure. I mean we have -- I mean the property that really kind of leaps to mind is we only have 2 that are be managed, but our Chicago Marriott, it's 1,200 keys on Michigan Avenue. It's a tremendous amount of meeting space. It's unlike the rest of the assets in our portfolio, but that's what I would call Marriott's sweet spot. They do a very good job in that sort of big box experience. no different than the marquee next door, for example, I think that's where there are sort of leaning into that. I think the reason why we would always say that it's just a choice. At the end of the day, is that use the example just because you went there for a conference. It doesn't mean I want to stay at the Marriott in so at the end of the day, like I want something that's more authentic when I'm in those leisure destinations. So -- that's why I say like, for us, it's just a choice depending on what the asset is. And in a situation like our Chicago property, they do a very good job. I mean, I tell you that we've eclipsed where we were prepandemic and we're 1 of the stronger performing group assets in that market.

Jeff, I want to go back to something you said about the transaction market, both being interested in buying and selling and more lines out there. What markets or property types are you -- if you your druthers would you want to see more of?

I mean the price was no object, I would buy independent resorts. I say that price is no object, because it's probably where the gap is widest. I mean some of the assets we were talking about earlier today, there's sort of and 6% cap rate. So think of that as almost 20x EBITDA. We trade at probably 8.5% to 9% cap right now. So it's -- I guess, I would say I'm speaking my book, but you probably have more leisure assets and resort assets than anybody, and yet we actually trade at 1 of the greatest discounts to are implied. And it's not a leverage question. We have 1 of the lower leverage balance sheet, too. So I think it's just people bucket hotels and they kind of just put the same multiple on everybody. They assume there's not much difference. But yes, I would say the independent side, it just gives us much more control. And I think I think in your segment, like the CapEx investments at because you're a really unique niche that you can monetize that. I think in lots of cities where the brands tend to mandate renovations every 7 years. the time clock doesn't always make sense. Candidly, it's -- you can be the best performing asset in the market, you don't need to renovate. But they're very time-based, and that's where we tend to have a lot of friction with that view that you have to be reinvesting on whether or not the asset needs it or whether or not it will benefit.

Are there operational flexibility that comes with that as well as you think about independents and that exposure?

For sure. I mean we can influence what staffing will be -- that really is beneficial with margins. To your point about when we look at our independent hotels that our margins tend to be much better.

One of the unique things about our portfolio, given the scale and the scale of the projects that we work on, we do most of that internally. We really on timing of spend, how dollars are spent, both in terms of maintenance as well as enhancements. We have internal design and construction teams that manage, we manage all our own room translations, et cetera. So we're -- we've taken control of that part of the value creation.

And Mark, going back to the Opryland renovation or, I should say, convention expansion, will that be something that we should then assume will build over time because of the long lead times of some of these groups?

Well, we start selling meeting space the day that we approve it and start construction. So sales teams have sales goals for that expanded space. They're selling off of renderings and doing site visits and walk-throughs during construction. And so in most cases, when we open incremental rooms or we open incremental meeting space, it really almost opens.

Great. Other topic Azure is around AI. Are you seeing any change in either customer behavior or even any thoughts that you have on the long-term impact from AI on demand or margins?

It's whether it's AI or I'll just call it technology because I do think there will be some aspects. When I say like robotics, I don't mean like humanoid walking around, but whether it's something as simple as a roombot.

Got to meet Adam Jonas or our thematics analyst. He will tell you all about humanoid robots coming.

Yes. I mean I do think that when you look across the industry, the opportunity is probably greatest for owners. I don't say that just because it's -- we're talking our book, I feel like you think about the owner, we have were the beneficiary of the revenue and the expense savings. And I think when you think about lodging, it's 1 of the higher cost to operate segments of real estate and just think about the broader real estate sector, any office building out the window has like no employees in it. I mean all employees of the office building itself, maybe no employees otherwise. But maybe the retail apartments, I think we have more inefficiency that can be solved. And I think on the revenue side, it's the same. I think that will ultimately be propelled by owners in some way, shape or form because a lot of the brands and our third-party managers, they're all paid off the top line. I don't use. I haven't seen many brands they spend a lot of money on trying to find ways to save owners money. They tend to just think about driving top line. So I think that the AI beneficiary, whether it's labor management or sort of complex jobs that the accounting type jobs at the property that might get consolidated. I think those will accrue to the owners benefit.

Yes. Look, for us, again, because of the the lead time and selling rooms 8, 10 years in advance. We think that ultimately, there's a lot of opportunity for us in terms of pricing and yielding and how to think about how do you maximize how do you maximize revenue. It's a pretty complex yield management exercise for us because of the amount of inventory that we're selling and getting right on. So being able to crunch big data and with a lot of variables. -- should be helpful.

So been a bit of a back and forth in terms of little AI reduced jobs. Will it add jobs -- are you seeing any signs in your business, whether it's maybe leads that are coming from new AI start-ups or otherwise?

You mean in terms of are bookings coming through LLM -- or do you mean the employers themselves or...

Yes, employers themselves or even if you just see any kind of change in corporate demand 1 way or another, that could be associated?

If you look at a market like San Francisco, where -- I mean, there's a variety of reasons why I say Fanciscois working. I mean it's fallen so far that it's effectively an parent. But I think there's a lot more enthusiasm in the San Francisco market around AI. We have a property in Sao Coleto sort of under the Golden Gate Bridge, that does a lot of midweek group for like tech companies like the 50 to 100 person off-site. And you see a lot of the who's who of technology companies go there for meetings.

We haven't really seen it in our hotel business that much in terms of changing consumer behavior at this point. We are we're obviously experimenting with it in a variety of ways as it relates to the pricing. And then in our entertainment business, we've started to deploy particularly around things like dynamic pricing, how we market to concert goers and those types of opportunities. We've gone to a fully automated call center entertainment business now.

As you're talking about the entertainment business, perhaps you can set the stage a little bit for folks that are less familiar or maybe more focused on the lodging side of the space. Just what are the various brands and platforms that you own and operate? And it sounded like on the last call, you were a little bit more excited about that business or positive about that business. So what are you seeing there?

Well, I mean, we've always been positive and excited about the business. The -- for those of you who aren't familiar with the Opera Entertainment group, it is a live entertainment business that's really focused on the country music consumer. We own a number of the highly acclaimed brands, specifically the grandadopry, the Ryman Auditorium, Austin salem it's live in Austin, Texas. So -- and we have a number of verticals that all service that same customer. We're in the venues business. We are in the artist partnership business. We have a brand with Blake Shelton called Red in another called category 10 with Luke homes, then we are in the festivals and appotheater business as well as the content creation business. All of those verticals really focus on that singular customer -- the country music fan. And it's a genre that's growing rapidly along with, obviously, with Nashville as a tourism market, but also just as a city that's attracting a lot of high-quality employers. And so that's a business that we've owned and operated forever. It was 100 years old last year. And we operate in a TRS -- it's about 15% of our revenue and 15% of our EBITDA.

For 100 years, how would you characterize the competitive moat of that business? And how does it maybe remind us of the interplay with the hotel side of the business are these totally run separate? Or are there still synergies within them?

Well, they are run separately with Marriott as our manager and also operating the entertainment business, where we have opportunities to work together, primarily Opryland and the grand old operate because they're geographically next to each other. Those are all just arm's link commercial transactions. And these are -- it's an incredibly unique business. And as I said, country music is growing very rapidly. And ultimately, our view of the businesses is that it shouldn't be in a TRS inside of a hotel REIT. And so as it continues to scale, ultimately, we'll separate that business. in 1 form or fashion and let us stand on its own, but an incredible collection of brands in a really rapidly growing market.

Maybe you can elaborate on that a little bit since you talked about scaling it up, what does normalized margin for this business look like?

That business today runs in the kind of high 20s in terms of EBITDA margin. I think you'll over time as it grows depending on which of those verticals contributes to that growth over time, you'll continue to see that margin in kind of, I would say, in the mid-20s over time. we've scaled the infrastructure of that business to the point now where when we're adding incremental units, we don't need to add incremental corporate capabilities. Obviously, it will be a step function over time. But as you think about the next, we have a category 1 right now under construction in Las Vegas. We've announced 1 in Orlando and we have a new old red that we're doing with the Pace organization in Indianapolis. We'll be able to bring those units online without driving a lot of incremental corporate costs. So we'll start to get some operating leverage.

Only got a couple of minutes left. I can go to some of my lightning round questions for everybody. But if anyone has a question in the audience, we can do that as well. Got 1 right here.

This is more of a general REIT question than hotel-specific perhaps. But we've seen reach become a big part of the hotel industry, the casino gaming industry I'm just wondering why it hasn't become a big part of the amusement park industry, the theme park industry -- are there any?

I don't know the amusement park business all that well. I think I think it's honestly like the capital investment in order to keep using the parks interesting. What level I know just from people I know who've been in the business, amusement parks sort of thrive on having like the hot new roller coastor, the hot thing, and it's just the capital investment cycle is very intense.

Would you include water parks in there?

Water parks are very low CapEx.

The other is that it's not compared to like the number of hotels in the country, there's not many of them.

The number, we don't see REITs in any of them. Maybe stay tuned.

In terms of the questions that I had these are -- we'll try to keep it tight here, but industry demand, a lot of back and forth. So you generally think that as we look over the next couple of years, are you more constructive on the trajectory that we could be on equally constructive or less constructive based on what you're seeing right now?

I mean, yes, we're certainly more constructive, particularly in our segment, where there's really no new supply coming online group demand is continues to grow. And so we think we're set up extremely well for the next couple of years.

No, I would say the same. I think when I look at our portfolio, while roughly in third in terms of our business mix between sort of leisure, business transient and group. -- anything like the group fundamentals continue to look very good. We've eclipsed prior peaks on demand and sort of higher and higher rates, it's hard to see how that changes. We don't have the visibility that he does just given the scale of their assets, they tend to be on a much longer booking window, but I think the trends look good. that really makes me enthusiastic and why I was saying independent resorts is that just demographically, you have sort of this these 2 bumps within the portfolio or within the population. One is sort of an aging consumer that is at peak earnings and peak spending. And so they're taking more trips that are longer and spending more on them. And at the same time, you have sort of a younger generation that's probably someone in their 30s that also values experiences over things. And we, as an industry, haven't built resorts in the country. 30 years. And it's not all beachfront. It can be -- we have stuff in Montana, and I said Sedona, it can be ski related. But it's an industry that has no supply growth and demand is going to continue to outstrip I think inflation over the next few years on the leisure side.

Yes. Look, I think you have to be careful that you don't lump all hotel REITs into the same category, right? It's really -- the winners and losers are going to depend on the quality of the assets, the quality of the service that's delivered -- and what's your unique positioning? And are you servicing a consumer's needs or not?

Right. And then the last one, we talked about artificial intelligence, but let's try to narrow it down to a single thing that you think will have the biggest impact? Is it going to be more top line or reducing costs or other?

I think for us, top line will be where it will uniquely enhance our capabilities. I mean we're not there yet. But as I said earlier, having the ability to better yield manage over a long period of time, I think, could be very powerful for us. I

'm mixed on that just because we already operate pretty deeply in 3 channels. When you think about it at most of our hotels. So I do think there's always opportunities to improve yield management as long as the increment sort of flows to the owner and ownership, I think it will be beneficial. But I think on the -- as I said, on the operations side, I mean, any given hotel in the United States probably has 7 to 10 software systems running none of which talk to each other. You sort of think of that as an example of how technology investment has happened in the hotel industry. Historically, the brands didn't really focus on that. And so I think that's where there's just a lot of inefficiency in the business where it's not about replacing headcount. It's like you can provide better service, effectively with a little AI investment or technology investment and maybe it lowers your cost structure, you can provide sort of for the same cost, a much higher level of service that I think that could benefit revenues as well, but I think it's going to be a mix for us.

It's great to get both of your perspectives. Please join me in thanking Jeff and Mark for all their thoughts on that.

Thanks.

Thank you.