Sanara MedTech Inc. (SMTI) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Sanara MedTech is a wound care products and technology company. To date, the company has been growing around 40% per year with 90% gross margins, primarily due to a product called CellerateRX. The company is in the process of launching several other products. Sanara's goal is to develop a wound care telehealth offering that is the first of its kind to address the whole continuum of wound -- of care in wounds. We're honored to have Ron Nixon with us, also Callon. Ron is the Executive Chairman and also the largest shareholder of Sanara MedTech. [Operator Instructions] Ron, you can take it from there.

Thank you very much, Ian. We appreciate the opportunity to present this morning. So thank you very much. So as Ian mentioned, Sanara MedTech is a relatively new company that is -- that has been designed to disrupt what has been a very fragmented market that has not been coordinated before anything outside of the fee-for-service market. We'll talk more about that as we move through the presentation. So Callon, if you will. So this page sums up essentially everything that we're trying to work on, which is in order for us to have this disruptive strategy that is around evidence-based healing technologies. Sanara first started with a product portfolio in the development stage with a company that we've recently acquired that is called Rochal Industries, and Rochal was a company that we previously were investors in. And they've spent the last 9 years working on proprietary wound product solutions for what we'll talk about, which are our focus areas in the product side. But today, what we've got is we've got CellerateRX that Ian mentioned. That's a surgical wound product that is activated collagen that is called hydrolyzed collagen. We've got BIAKOS, which is a very interesting antimicrobial wound and skin cleanser gel and irrigation solution for wound care. We have HYCOL, which is a derivative of Cellerate, which is used in the advanced wound care setting outside of surgery. And then we've got 3 biologics products that we'll discuss that are done in a partnership with Cook Medical, one of the largest privately held MedTech companies in the U.S. based out of Indiana. We've got a very robust pipeline, which includes 6 wound care and surgical site therapy focus areas that I'll talk about briefly here in a minute. And then what we looked at is if you're really going to be able to provide a holistic approach to wound care, you need to have virtual consult as part of that. That was very evident during the COVID epidemic or crisis. And you can see how many people turned to being able to get their medical needs done through virtual consult. We have focused not only on wound, but on skin in that area through a proprietary product offering we've got called WounDerm, and we acquired a company called MGroup, which is a licensed virtual consult throughout 40 states, and will be headed to all 50 states. DirectDerm is in 23 states, and they are providing the dermatology skin virtual consults as well. So if you're not familiar with the wound care or the health care industry, you've got the acute and the post-acute settings where all of this takes place. And all of these are episodic in nature. You're seeing more and more trending. You've heard about, I'm sure, the Medicare Advantage Program, which actually 42% of the Medicare population are under the MA plans today, but -- and that is focused on a much more of a value-based arrangement, but there's still a lot of fee-for-service done, and that's the vast majority of wound care that's done today. So that means you're in the acute and post-acute settings, meaning the inpatient hospital or a physician office or a long-term acute care hospital or a surgical hospital. All of those are focused on a 3- to 10-day care time frame. And then they've got responsibility for that patient next -- for the next 100 days, typically for readmission back into the hospital concerns. And in the post-acute side, you've got the skilled nursing facilities, you've got the long-term care facilities, you've got home health and physician offices play a role in that. And then you've got wound care centers, which are part of the post-acute as well. What we've done is looked at every one of these are episodic in nature. We'll talk about that in a minute. But what we've looked at is we said, if you're really going to go attack this market and move from being just a fee-for-service provider, you really need to provide all of these component parts, which we've talked about. So you've got the Sanara proprietary products through Rochal. We've also licensed some other products in that regard through Cook and as well as with Applied Nutritional. We've got a diagnostic that we have the exclusive rights to called Precision Healing. And it is an imager and a lateral flow assay design, and I'll give you more details on that. As we previously talked about, virtual consult as DirectDerm, MGroup and our WounDerm EMR that we're developing. All of these need to be integrated in order to be able to do full care coordination between all these care settings. So on the surgical side, you'll see that CellerateRX, and I will give you a little bit about that, FORTIFY TRG and FORTIFY FLOWABLE are products that are coming out of the Cook portfolio. And then as you move into wound care, we've got the BIAKOS antimicrobial product, and then that's really performed very, very well from the standpoint of all the testing we've done, all the different patients that have utilized this product. It has a very high kill rate of what they call biofilm. Biofilm is one of our key areas that we're focused on, on how to manage that. For you all that are not familiar with biofilm, it is where you get in the aggregation of different types of bacteria that colonize on a wound bed, and within 48 hours, it's in a mature state and basically can lock out anything that's coming in to try to get to its food source, which happens to be the wound bed. And they've dealt with that through cutting that off of the wound through sharp debridement and another methodologies, but we have approached it in a different manner with our proprietary cleanser and our gel where we actually break the cell, open up the biofilm and go in with a penetrant that kills it. And we have a lot of data that supports just how well we do against all of the leading competitors in the marketplace. We also know from one of the leading clinician groups out there that's had 20-plus years of wound care data that the control of infection in wounds within the first 3 days of that infection are critical to the healing of the wound, and that's what we're focused on. Next slide, Callon. So if you look at what we're trying to do, we're trying to be the leader in new innovative approaches to wounds, skin care, burns, which kind of are a derivative of the wound care market as well. Just to give you a little overview, our scientific group has 9 scientists and engineers, several PhDs, very experienced people based in San Antonio. And this is just a summary of some of the things that the experience that we've got not only on antimicrobials, but polymers. In fact, our founder of the business actually invented the gas permeable contact lens that led to Bausch & Lomb's breathable contact lens over 30 years ago. And then we've got a number of things in the works on the biologics systems, including an autolytic debrider and then diabetic skin care line over time. Core capabilities within Rochal. They understand FDA. They understand GMP manufacturing. They understand all of the testing and requirements necessary, and they also really understand how to gather the data to prove out our efficacy. So we don't want this to be a selling business. Although we want sales, we want this to be a technical business that's been driven by a lot of data that supports why our products work better and why our holistic approach is better as well. So I mentioned the 6 focus areas of debridement, biofilm removal, the hydrolyzed collagen, advanced biologics, negative pressure and the oxygen delivery system. Each one of those play a very separate and integral part to the healing process. Debridement is where it starts, and that's typically where you remove the top cap of the wound and allow oxygen to be able to get there, but a lot of the debridement is focused on also removing biofilm. So we still think debridement is a really critical component to this, even though we've got biofilm eradication technology, we still believe in debridement, and there are multiple things that we are working on. We have a low-pressure water system that debrides the wound, and we actually use biofilm as the irrigant that flows through that system. And then we're working on our autolytic debrider and some others. On the biofilm removal, we've already talked about the BIAKOS, and the gel form, cleanser form and also in its irrigant form. Hydrolyzed collagen that is the star of the show in the surgical side. Cellerate, it's growing so rapidly. We've got HYCOL, which is really just entering into that market today. And then we've got our advanced biologics. And we're -- and we have a lot that we are doing around negative pressure for adjunct products, et cetera. We think negative pressure is an integral part of wound healing as well. And that's been one of the dominant areas at -- historically, that's accounted for 25% of the full acute wound care spend on dollars coming out of Medicare. And then oxygen therapy, hyperbaric oxygen therapy was the go to for many years. It is really fallen by the way side. They don't have enough data to support that you really get the value proposition from that. So we're looking at alternative ways to deliver oxygen to the bottom of the wound bed. So the industry -- what got us into this was just looking at why this needs to be disrupted. And if you look at the data on surgical wounds, it's almost a $12 billion business per year. It's 15 million surgeries each year. And every time a surgery occurs and you cut a patient open or you go down in and cut the fascia, which is where your hardware is going to be for most of your operations for ortho, spine, et cetera, those create 2 wounds, 1 at the surface, 1 at the fascia. And historically 2% to 4% of those surgical sites end up with some type of infection. And if you think about it, if you're doing a hardware replacement of some orthopedics product, and you probably spend $25,000 to $30,000 on that. The revisitation into that after surgical site infection can be as much as $70,000. So it's a huge, huge problem for them for any readmission. So what the surgeons are using this for is to really look and see if, one, they can get faster healing rates. This is what we -- they tell us, faster healing rates. They see less surgical site infections. They see better, a lack of dehiscence. So meaning that the wound doesn't want to break apart, because the bond is very strong in there. And so this is a key critical part to our business because in the $28 billion total market for wound care per year in total spend, $12 billion of that just comes out of the surgical wound. So it's a key critical area, and we are working on a leave-in surgical BIAKOS product that will come out sometime in the future as well. And it's obviously a very growing market, in particular with the aging population. Diabetes leads to bad wounds in the lower extremity. Poor circulation in your veins lead to bad outcomes for wounds. And it's just been a problem that has plagued the health care industry for many, many years. And I've mentioned earlier about it being a fee-for-service. Well, fee-for-service is really an antiquated system, and that's not me just saying that. That is CMS saying that as well. That's why so many dollars are getting moved towards the Medicare Advantage plans, other value-based arrangements that are out there. But what's interesting is, because no one has come with a holistic solution that is comprehensive in nature that goes from soup to nuts on the wound healing process, you -- they've been dealing with this even under the MA plans. They do this in fee-for-service. They would love to see our solution be implemented over time, and we have lots of those kinds of discussions ongoing, and we'll continue to do so. But as I've mentioned earlier, hospitals are 3 to 5 days and LTACs are 28 days. SNFs are 21 days before the copay kicks in, home health is 60 days. And that's two 30-day episodes. And I've got a lot of personal experience on the home care side because we invested in LHC Group, which is the second largest home care company in the U.S. with 1,000 locations across the country, and they have a very large population of wound patients, and they have historically not been able to deal with them in the fashion they would like to because all of their expenses fell under their care plan. So therefore, if they got $2,500 per patient in home health for a 60-day episode, they would have to supply the bandages and/or high-dollar solutions for that and they're not going to do that under $2,500 payment because they would lose money very, very quickly. Well now, two systems have come out for payment. One is called PDPM, and one is PDGM. The PDGM is a group modeling payment system in home health. And now they lumped all of these different categories into 432 groupings. Wound care is one of those added ones where if you get a wound patient that scores x based on its comorbidities, you can see that payment go from, let's say, $2,500 to $4,500 to take that wound. So they're incentivizing home health and skilled nursing facilities to take these more highly acute patients in wound care. And you can see how -- why it doesn't fit this model. Your average diabetic wound to heal is 25 weeks. Well, that doesn't fit in anybody's 60-day episode. And on the average wound, the average wound is 14 weeks to heal. And that still doesn't really fit anybody's healing potential within their care setting time frame that they've got. So it's just been something that has been avoided. So what do we want to do? We want to transition to a value-based arrangement. That's why it's so important that we've got proprietary products that we have our Precision Healing to be able to understand where are we and identifying what's in that wound and then develop treatment algorithms off of that data that we've got over time. And we clearly want the patient and the physician to have clinician physician ownership where they are connected. So doing that through a virtual consult treatment works very, very well, so that, that patient to provider interface can happen. So we've really talked about this for the most part. How we've been going to market is direct to the hospitals themselves through surgeons that request our products. And I'll give you some more data about this in just one moment. But currently, we're approved in over 900 hospitals, and that was up from 261 hospitals, I believe, 18 months ago. So we've made quite a number of strides going through what's called the value analysis committee to get approvals at these hospitals. And then we've been on a strategy of expanding our regional sales managers and our 1,099 reps across the country to cover these 900 hospitals. And we're -- in the latter part of 2021, we've been introducing now our products for the biologics to go in surgery as well. So here is -- here we've talked about this already, but the application for these products is for ortho, trauma, neuro, cardiovascular. Orthopedic and spine account for the largest number of individual surgeries that we do. And we have had very good success. And as Ian had told you earlier, our growth rate in surgery has grown very, very strong, and that was one of the reasons we did an offering earlier this year with Cantor Fitzgerald, was to be able to get the capital so that we could spend ahead of the curve and build out this sales distribution network to support these hospitals and the surgeons around the country. So we mentioned the Cook products. I probably don't need to spend a lot of time on that. They're both 510(k) regulatory cleared. They're based off of what their kind of proprietary SIS platform, and that -- this is a porcine-based product. And Cook has been doing this a long time, and we're very excited about the partnership with them and look forward to introducing their products in a big way into the market and our -- not only surgical but our wound care side. So just to give you a little overview. At the end of the last quarter we had -- that was announced, we had 26 regional sales managers covering a vast number of the 21 states that -- where the product is being sold. And then we're also looking at where our targeted markets are going to be. We have another term called our territory sales managers. That's really where we go into the region where we've already got approvals in these hospitals and start spending more time direct to the surgeons to make sure they're aware of what our product does and how well it works in there so that we can get more and more surgery adoption. Our market is a very large one. As you can see, there's over 6,000 hospitals that we think are qualified for -- to use our products as well as 5,700 ASCs, and that's the surgery centers. Some are connected back to the hospital and physician owned, some are hospital owned, but it's more of a trend today. You see more ASC activity for surgeries because they are very specific to what they do in terms of their specialty. And I'm sure all of you have seen that. And so they're very, very focused on their costs and their readmissions back into the hospital because you get quality score dinged if you have that, but it's also -- it's cost punitive to you as well. So in our wound care and virtual consults strategy, as I mentioned before, it's the implementation of our 6 focused product areas into the market. It is to start with our diagnostic because if you don't know where you are from a bacterial infection potential, nobody really understood the relationship between the bacteria and biofilm. And it's been written about for 15 years, but nobody ever either had the product to deal with it or they didn't really understand that potential of how it really could stall wounds. But when the biofilm attacks a wound, what happens is your wound will -- your body will send proteins down to the wound bed trying to fight off that infection, and that creates this very large pool of liquid, that's called exudate in the wound bed and there are many, many products that have been developed to absorb that high exudate that is being done because the infection is so rapid within the wound area. What we have seen and witnessed is that when you use our BIAKOS antimicrobial wound cleanser and our gel, you see a decrease in these and the exudate being produced, which means we believe that you will see a reduction of spend on these high exudation foams and so forth that are needed in the overall wound care market. So therefore, we think that these 6 focus areas will lead to a reduction over time of the need for so many SKUs that exist in this market today. There are literally thousands of wound care products out there. And the market is totally confused because most of them don't have data to back up what they're doing, and that's what we're spending our time on. So if you look at the graph on the right, you get your wound diagnostic that's done. You can have a virtual consult to talk about what is going on in the wound bed. You can communicate to the clinician in the field what they need to do, put our products on those and you can do the documentation through our EMR system called WounDerm and have everything that you needed to know about that wound all categorized within your EMR system that can bolt on to anyone else's EMR system. And it gives you a decision support mechanism to be able to do clinical best practices as well. So we think this combo really makes for a strong product offering and service offering into the marketplace today. I won't go through the EMR system. I've given you enough about that, but the goal of that is to be able to track the wounds, to be able to build analytics off of those, and then develop our treatment algorithms, which our Precision Healing team is doing. It's a bunch of MIT ex-students and senior faculty over there that have been involved in this. And they got into this when they were working on a diagnostic that is for identifying breast cancer, and the CEO got a bad wound and was just horrified at the treatment to get this done and felt like that their -- that some of their technology could fit with identifying that on the imager as well as developing this LFA, and I'll talk about that in just a second. Callon? So that's what I'm talking about here. And so this novel approach uses the imager, which if you look on your right, the imager is and we expect this imager to continue to morph in terms of its design features. And what we -- what I tell our guys all the time, you don't know what you don't know. So therefore, gather more data, not less data. This company started out looking at 60 different biomarkers within the wound and narrowed it down to 5 to 9 key biomarkers and the lateral flow assay Smartpad that they've got. And in the imager, this shows you what kind of infection you've got, where the infection is located. It can tell you if it's gotten a necrotic tissue, meaning dead tissue. It can tell you whether or not you've got granulation occurring, which means that the dermis healing has started because of the collagen that is in there and starting to regrow your skin. So you see epithelial tissue starting to -- but it gives you your blood oxygen levels and it can give you a volumetric calculation of your wound so that you know if your wound is getting bigger or not. And all of these things are really key. And so what we think we can do instead of guessing about wounds, which that's how they heal wounds for the last 20 years, they literally smell wounds and use visual sight to determine what their treatment protocol is and there is such a lack of standardization in treatment that we just see a great opportunity for this. I won't get into that, but that's just what I just -- it's just a chart to show you that the competition out there is nowhere near where we are in terms of the comprehensive breadth of data that we're pulling up. You have a bunch of different types of technology for diagnostics, but you could see most of them are single or dual point, and that's it, whereas you can see all the data that we gather off of ours. I think I've talked about the virtual consult enough. These are some of the conditions that we're going to see on the skin side, which is dry skin, sun spots, dandruff, rosacea, all these kind of things. And quite frankly, you see a lot of this in the post-acute with these Medicare patients. Not only do they have wounds, but a lot of them have psoriasis or toe fungus or other things that need to be treated and they are reimbursed. And while we're in there doing our diagnostics, there's no reason why we wouldn't be capturing data on skin so that we can deal with wound and skin conditions. A little bit about the product pipeline. I mentioned earlier at the far right, the BIASURGE, which is going to be the first leave in biofilm antimicrobial irrigant for surgery. We've got our debridement technology that we are laser focused on getting out in the market, and we've talked about that one already. And then we're also working on next-generation CellerateRX and next-generation HYCOL. Collagen is coming in of its own. You'll see lots of products, and they're collagen-based that are for your skin today, and we know how well it works on wounds. And we think we've got some ideas about how to build that next gen that can even make it more impactful than it is and also along the way pick up more of a proprietary aspect because the CellerateRX patent has expired, but it is protected under manufacturer trade secrets, and those are critical to what we do. But we'd also like to get some additional IP around that. Financial performance. As we mentioned, it generated -- the company generated $6.3 million in revenue over the last 3 months ending June, versus $3 million in the 3 months ending June of 2020, 112% growth. One thing you'll notice about this company is that even with a slowdown of COVID, we were penetrating the market with new approvals in the VAC committees across the country, and we actually were able to continue to grow the business during a period of time in which a lot of elective surgeries were shut down, as you know. And just so everybody on this call understands what you -- elective surgery doesn't probably mean what you think. Elective means it is scheduled. And that means it could be a cardiovascular surgery. It could be a hip joint, a knee replacement, something that has to occur over time, but it can be postponed because it is scheduled surgery. So the only thing -- what they're really talking about is emergency room surgeries that need to be done or something trauma related. And so when you think about the postponing of those, they don't go away, so you do pick those back up. And we saw that in the last kind of round of COVID. And I'll talk a little bit about COVID because I know that it's -- people are wondering where are we with the Delta virus and so forth. And there are hotspots still around the country. And it's had a little bit of impact on us, but we'll see how the numbers shake out for this quarter. But we also are seeing a trend that the cases are dropping off. And what's really interesting is the people that are having the most difficult time with the Delta virus and even existing COVID have been the unvaccinated. That's 97% of the people that have had severe reaction to COVID or deaths. And so the quicker we get close to getting a large population vaccinated, the quicker we're going to be able to return everything back to normalcy. I'll let the numbers speak for themselves. You guys can see that. And we've got a strong cash position at the end of June and are very mindful that we want to be very good stewards of the capital that we have raised from shareholders in terms of what we are working on and what we're going to spend our money on.

Ron, that's our last slide. I can turn it over to Ian and Mike if they have any questions from the audience that they want to take.

Yes. We do have questions from the audience. The first one is, as Medicare Advantage is moving towards PCP-focused entities, value-based care, how does that trend affect you? And how do you break down your selling focus between marketing to the managed care companies versus selling directly to end market physicians, surgeons, hospitals?

Yes. So most of the surgeons to the -- well, surgeons direct to that, that's under the DRG for each operation, and there's not an issue with that. That's not going to change anytime soon. They're not going to be -- they're going to look at the scores of these surgeons over time for quality, but that's not going to impact us. So our surgery business is not really subject to the value-based arrangements. It's really -- we're a small part of the overall DRG cost, and they are clearly looking for how they can prevent revisitation back to the hospital, faster healing. All of those things help them in their quality scores. That's why our product has been so effective. As it relates to our advanced wound care in all the post-acute settings as well as including in the hospital for just general wound care, first off, wounds typically are not the primary diagnosis. It's typically going to be COPD, CHF. It's going to be hypertension, mobility issues that develop the wound from a pressure ulcer. And so it's typically secondary. And so -- but they're having to deal with this because there's such a high cost of wound care. So the way we are breaking down our selling is instead of spending time on the post-acute with a lot of people and discussions about we're better than everybody else under fee-for-service, that's not a game for us because it doesn't work. It falls on deaf ears. So we're spending all of our time on proving out our strategy through a home health care pilot that we have going on right now with a large home health care provider that is geared towards how do we heal wounds and do this so that we can be thinking about the value-based arrangement and not just a fee-for-service, lowering their overall cost while improving their efficacy and healing rates. We're spending a lot of time with people in the post-acute that are focused on how they can be a part of either the I-SNP program or skilled nursing facilities, which centers around an MA plan related to that. And the skilled nursing facilities have been under so much pressure because of just how many people were impacted by coronavirus. They've really not focused their attention on PDPM, which was the program design. It's more like a value-based arrangement. And I think they will get there over time, but they're barely keeping their head above water. You can see the vast majority of acute patients are starting to move back to the home, and this is all under either the legislation of hospital at home or just the mere fact that people are trying to move them into a more comfortable setting for them to get their care. And so the home is where people are moving to, and you're seeing a lot of migration of those patients. We also see migration away from the wound centers going to the physician offices, but we think that will be short-lived, and we think that there's a much bigger strategy on the value-based side where you coordinate care through all of them. And we are having discussions with managed care companies and these primary care providers that are taking risk with the skilled nursing facilities and then obviously, home health.

So with the recent impacts of COVID, have you been able to shift more to RSM initiatives in the hospitals that were approved but not yet sold into?

We -- I won't say it was a shift. We always were very aggressive in continuing to be on that aggressive path. Our goal was to have between 40 and 50 RSMs in the field. And we didn't state specifically what time frame. A lot of that has to do with how big is the market, how much training do they need to be able to get that done, what access do we have to those VAC committees to get that done. We measure all of that. And then we are very good about building models to say what does this look like to us in terms of payback because you've got a lag time of anywhere from 6 to 9 months on getting a hospital approval through the VAC network. And then you've got to get the surgeon uptake. And so that can be anywhere from 6 months to 18 months. But as we've continued across the country and more and more hospitals know us, it's getting easier, in my opinion, to get into these hospitals. But -- so I think it won't be very long before our next quarter numbers will come out, but we're continuing to advance our strategy.

Can you talk about the team that you plan to hire to sell and commercialize the WounDerm and telehealth initiatives?

Yes. So the -- the team that we have today is really going to be -- this is going to done at a much higher level because what you do on the value-based side, this is really going to be done at a level that is going to be above a purchasing agent. This is going to be done with the top people that are either the Chief Medical Officers, the head of value-based purchasing, whatever with any of the managed care companies. So that's going to be our senior team, all participating in that and over time, then -- but we've got a strong team, technical team that's in the field today with our clinicians. And you end up with a whole lot more clinician interaction, physician interaction. Chris Morrison -- Dr. Chris Morrison is actively involved in all these discussions being a 20-plus year wound provider, and our entire management team is focused on that at the highest level. This is not going to be slugging it out in a skilled nursing facility trying to beat the DMEs and say we can offer it cheaper or better. This is going to be selling our holistic approach.

So what is the FDA process and time line for getting Precision Healing launched into the market?

Yes. So we had said all along that we wanted them to be able to file their 510(k) sometime before the end of the year, and we feel we're on track to get that done. And then approvals are all over the map time-wise, but it is a Class 1 device. So I don't think it's going to be that challenging to get the approval done. So just as a guess, I'm going to say first or second quarter of 2022, we'll be implementing this into the market. But nothing has stopped them from continuing down the path of their IRB study. They have a 100-patient study and continue to gather more data so that we can build those treatment algorithms, but also prove out the technology, not only on our imager, but on the lateral flow assay as well.

How difficult is it to produce Cellerate? And do you have any intellectual property around Cellerate?

Yes. It's very challenging. Many people have tried to build a hydrolyzed collagen product. And they -- and a lot has to do with your manufacturing processes, and it takes a long time to get that done. And this company has been around a long time doing it. And so we've got great expertise there. But in building the next product because we do know all of that, we feel confident that we'll be able to get through the next generation here within the next 18 to 24 months.

How do you think about revenue growth versus profitability, balancing those 2?

I don't like not being profitable. And if you look at -- if you were to peel the onion back, with the margins that are produced on the surgery side, this company could be profitable pretty quickly if we were to abandon everything else we're doing. But that's not what we want to do. We want to provide this holistic approach. We believe in the advanced wound care market. It's a large market. It needs to be disrupted. It needs better products. It needs our virtual consult and our diagnostic tool. So therefore, the prize is worth the race in our opinion. And so we'll continue to support that financially even if it means that we are foregoing earnings for some period of time.

Thank you, Ron. I appreciate the time this morning.

Thank you, Ian. Appreciate it. Mike, thank you very much. Thank you, everyone.