Saudi Arabian Mining Company (Maaden) (1211) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Good day, and welcome to the Q1 2021 Results Presentation. Today's conference is being recorded. At this time, I would like to turn the conference over to Frederik Michaelsen. Please go ahead, sir.

Good afternoon. Thank you very much for your interest in Ma'aden. Just a quick disclaimer on Page 3. This presentation contains forward-looking statements, so please don't place any undue reliance on the numbers, full disclaimer on Page 3. And without further ado, I'm going to hand over to our new acting CEO.

Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. Thank you very much for joining us on this earning call for quarter 1 of 2021. I will start really going over the strategy, Ma'aden Strategy 2025. The strategy is still intact, and we are going really to focus on our operational excellence and enhancing our competitiveness, watching our cost and maximizing the output of our facility and make sure that we are bringing the value creation out of our assets, and improve the profitability within our peers and the industry. We will leverage -- we will continue to leverage the technology and -- the digital technology for our processes, being in mining, milling and processing of our mining material. A national mining champion, we will focus in growth of our current business, and we will expand some of the industrial minerals, and we will focus in growing in our current business. And also, we will continue leading the developments of mining industry and mining sector in Saudi Arabia. In the global presence, we will leverage our position and our accessibility to the available mineral in Saudi Arabia and strengthening our position globally. In the sustainability, we will be focusing in safety of our people, safety of our community and making sure that we are taking care of our community and the community which we are working on. And we will strengthening our capability and preparing our leaders and our human capital to lead this industry and this sector. Next page. As you can see, Ma'aden share has outperformed the market and the peers company, which they are working in the same field. As you can see, Ma'aden is really about 11 -- annualizes about 11 point (sic) [ 11.1% ] growth in the share value compared to mining giants, which is about 10%. Next page. In the safety, during the last, probably four quarters, we have noticed that we have a good improvement in the TRIR, total recordable incident rate, which is really a good indication that we have an improvement on the safety culture and also in the overall compliance. We are benchmarked very well with our colleague in the industry, as you can see that Ma'aden is performing very well comparing to the other mining company and even the individual businesses, which we have. Next page. We will have -- we will discuss this in detail on our financial presentation. As you can see, the revenue and the sales grow actually about SAR 5.5 billion, reduced by about 2%, and Yaser will talk about the reason why we are reaching this. The EBITDA is about 10% higher than the previous quarter at SAR 2.2 billion, and the main reason is really the operating expenses lower than previous quarter and also some other reason, which will be explained by Yaser in his financial presentation. The net profit is about SAR 850 million, and the main reason is basically the EBITDA increase on the -- as what we are saying in the previous explanation. The cash is SAR 1.4 billion, which is down by almost 35%. And the working capital start at about SAR 5.1 billion. In the production update, I will highlight only 2 -- the first 2 things, actually, the ammonia -- the ammonium phosphate, which is really hit by unplanned shutdown. And the ammonia, which is really hit by extended plant shutdowns. So we open, we have shutdown -- maintenance shutdown, then the technical team discovered that we have something really to be changed, and it extended the shutdown. The production in the gold, also, it's worth to talk about the gold. The gold production is 14%, and this is mainly to an advanced shutdown -- advanced plant turnaround for Duwayhi mill. Ad Duwayhi mill has some certain issue. So we advanced the scheduled turnaround, and we fixed the issue. The phosphate and ammonia have seen significant increase on the -- in the early of this quarter and later on the previous quarter, one of the major reason that we have seen really movement in the demand in India and also in South America. So this is really supporting the increase and the tightness of the market in India and South America. In the aluminum and alumina prices, the aluminum of the LME is having really steady increase since the beginning of May last year. So the progress is very well. And this is mainly coming from the closure of some of the smelters in China and also increased recovery of the Chinese market in the last -- in the second half of last year. However, we are seeing sharp increase during this quarter. And the alumina, actually, it's the inflation -- the deflection graph -- usually, it doesn't take that long time, but we are expecting that this is normal behavior of alumina in the movement of the LME market. The copper has really -- has very strong fundamental and started increasing since May. It's similar to any other metal. And now it's reaching about 800 -- $8,800, and we hope that it will continue doing this good performance. And the main factor for this is really movement and recovery of economy in China and Europe. In the gold, gold has a countercycle as you know very well. It's easing a little bit and coming down in the price. And I hope that it will continue at the current rate. And now I'm handing over to Yaser to go over the -- our financial results and the financial performance. Okay, Yaser?

Thank you, Engineer Abdulaziz, and Ramadan Mubarak to all of you. Actually, pleased to present another good quarter from profitability point to view since the COVID-19. In Page 18 or Slide 18, Engineer Abdulaziz mentioned the 2% lower sales compared to the previous quarter. We have higher prices of an average of 10%, except gold. And this has, unfortunately, come along with the less volume, expect (sic) [ except ] gold and FRP. So if I summarize, we have, again, been helped by the price, or the price compensated some of the lower volume. But it's good to also emphasize of what Engineer Abdulaziz also mentioned that the lower volume is coming from plant shutdowns that will -- Inshallah, we will benefit from in the next quarters. On the EBITDA side, Alhamdulillah, SAR 2.2 billion EBITDA, great EBITDA and great EBITDA margin. The increase, although lower sales, is coming from less cost of sales because we have less volume, as mentioned earlier. Also, optimization, of course, we have lower G&A and also we have lower marketing and acceleration. We end up with net profit of SAR 761 million, 30%, 33% higher than last quarter. SAR 0.62, this is -- I mean, Inshallah, continuation of improvement of results. On the next slide, if we talk about the same profitability or the net profit on this bridge, we have summarized this into 4 categories. The first one is prices. We have mentioned that prices contributed to our profitability, around SAR 376 million, from various -- from all actually products except the gold. In regards to the sales volume, we lost around SAR 473 million from less sales than previous quarter. And this is, again, from these plant shutdowns. On the finance cost, again, we have a negative SAR 38 million, and actually, this is from higher capitalization in Q4. So this is not really actually SIBOR/LIBOR. We're still enjoying lower finance costs. But actually, in Q4, there was a higher capitalization of cost as per IAS 23. On the others, mainly the cost from less volume contributed to this. And also the good results, it's also extended to our JV partners, our partnership. So we have increased also in income share of JVs. So on the mix, if we compare, again, the profit to the Q1 of last year, we see tremendous increase here. So prices, again, around SAR 1 billion, volume also contributed and finance costs and also the others, which is mainly from the increase in profit of JVs. The next slide, we want to just shed some light on the consolidated EBITDA. We see, again, compared to last year quarter and previous quarter, what is worth -- it's a huge, big increase. What's worth mentioning is the sales, and we spoke about this 2%. And this is mainly coming from the phosphate as most of these plant shutdowns are in the phosphate business, some in aluminum. But the major shutdowns -- the plant shutdowns are in the phosphate business. On the Slide 22, the EBITDA and EBITDA margins. Happy to see the high EBITDA since 20 -- or the highest EBITDA since 2017 and also highest EBITDA margin. If we consider that, before 2019, we didn't have full commercial production of all our plants. So this is the reason why we see higher EBITDA on 2018. But if we compare apple-to-apple, the current is the highest since 2017. Ladies and gentlemen, on Slide 23, on the cash flow, we still have good operating activities -- or cash from operating activities, SAR 1.4 billion. We have invested around SAR 1 billion, mainly in Mansourah-Massarah and Ammonia 3. We also have around over SAR 900 million to repay our debt. So this leaves us with around SAR 5.2 billion ending balance. On the next slide and the ratios. Profitability ratios definitely improved -- or we have seen a major improvements due to the market prices and sustaining also our productions. In the efficiency side, we need maybe to do some work on the working capital. Definitely, there is some increase because of prices, but we will continue comparing ourselves to our peers, and we see causes of the decrease and increase in both receivables and variable efficiency ratios. Finally, I would like to mention that based on also our strategy, and the help of the market, we see that net debt-to-EBITDA has decreased from 7.6 to 6.3, which looks good, and we will continue, inshallah, working to reducing this ratio. On Slide 26, and as mentioned earlier, we have the ammonium phosphate fertilizer production lower than Q4. And due to the reasons that we have explained, and also the CEO has mentioned, some various plant shutdowns and extending of -- extending shutdowns, and we will, Inshallah, benefit from this in the next quarter. On the ammonia side, it's also a shutdown and a delay or a timing of one of the shipments, and all this, Inshallah, we'll be realizing in the next quarter. On the aluminum side, the same level of production compared to last quarter is maintained. We don't see a major decrease on -- or increase, so we're maintaining the same level of production. The gold and copper on the next slide, again, no major changes. We have higher production, actually, and this is coming from higher production of Ad Duwayhi mine, around 7,000 ounces. So with this, I will come back to Engineer Abdulaziz to cover the remaining of the presentation.

Okay. The remaining item is only one item, which is the update on Ma'aden projects. We have 4 projects, which we are working on. First one is the Ammonia 3. Ammonia 3 is around to be completed from a mechanical point of view. And actually, we started the introduction of the gas and commissioning and recommissioning has started at -- within the last 2 weeks. The cost is USD 1.1 billion, still the project in budget, and we are expecting really the operation and the production will start -- commissioning and recommissioning will start quarter 1 2022. The Mansourah-Massarah Gold Project, it's a 250 kilo ounce production facility, and it's costing us about USD 880 million. We are expecting the production by quarter 2 2021. The -- sorry, the completion of the -- mechanical completion of the project, not the production. So we have to add really prestripping, stripping then all of these things. The Phosphate 3, 3,000 kilo metric ton per annum, the total cost up to now and the estimation is $4.2 million (sic) [ $4.2 billion ] in the budget. The completion will be 2025 for Phase 1 of the production of phosphate. Remediation at Wa’ad Al-Shamal. This is very important short-term project, which we need really to improve the production capacity in Wa’ad Al-Shamal to reach our 100% and even increase a little bit more than the plant capacity. We are expecting this to be -- this project to continue until 2025. However, we will have -- we will see by the end of 2022 great improvement in our production at Wa’ad Al-Shamal. Thank you very much. This is what we plan really to share with you, and it's -- now, I think it's the question-and-answer and Q&A session, and we are ready to answer your questions.

Moderator, please explain the process for the Q&A briefly.

[Operator Instructions] And we'll now take our first question. This question comes from Nour Sherif of Arqaam Capital.

Just a couple of questions for me, if I may, we can take it one by one, if possible. So first, on the Phosphate Segment. Can you give us more details on the reason behind taking longer than expected for the turnaround? And should we expect the plant to go back to operations in -- or go fully back to operations in Q2?

Yes. Okay. The demand reason is basically in the ammonia plant, the furnace has an unexpected failure of the -- some of the part of the furnace, it's extended about 11 days. And the plant back on line again, and we are not expecting really to have further consequences of this damage. The spare parts is available, so they change it totally, and they test it, and they are running with it. And we are expecting the next turnaround to be after 3 years.

Okay. And is this the main reason we've seen lower -- yes, so it's back to operations, and we should not see any impact on Q2 volumes, right?

Yes. In the volume for next quarter and years -- and the other quarters and this year will get an improvement. I'm not sure 100% that we will recover the first phase. But for the goal, I am sure, 100% because it's advancing of scheduled shutdown in second quarter. But...

And the reason behind lower phosphate -- sorry.

Yes. The lower phosphate, as I told you, and scheduled shutdown, which is issues and problems in the phosphate plants and extended the ammonia turnaround. So those are the 2 reasons. So those 2 reasons, by nature, is not recoverable. However, we will try our best to make sure that we are closing the gap.

Okay. And regarding the Q1 '21 cash cost of the Phosphate Segment, we've seen that prices are higher, but versus last quarter, margins were lower. So can you give us more color as there is some spike in cash costs? And if this is something we should expect to continue?

Well, actually, sincere apologies, we don't talk any much about the details here even in phosphate or aluminum. But assure you that we are, if not better, we're maintaining the same cash cost for the phosphate. Considering that, we are in MWSPC still facing some difficulties. And the CEO also has discussed the remediation project which after reaching the full capacity, inshallah, we will see improvement in the cash cost. But yes, level-wise, if not for the production, there is no major increase.

Just one last question on the Aluminum Segment. So again, we've seen selling prices higher in Q1, but revenues were down 2% Q-on-Q. So can you shed some light on the reason behind it? And is it because of lower physical premiums that you are seeing or delays in recognition in volumes?

Volumes actually continue quarter-to-quarter -- the last quarter continue to be in the same level. Prices actually improving. We have seen improvements. We just mentioned, regards to volume, some also shutdowns in Aluminum and that, of course, a minor lower level of volume, but it's recovered with the prices. And the 2% is actually in phosphate is -- if you're talking about the sale, the 2% is in the phosphate, it's not in the aluminum. If you go to the aluminum and then the sales, right, is actually up by 2%.

Okay. So for the aluminum, should we expect the same production in Q2? Or should we expect this higher?

The aluminum is expected the same level of production. The aluminum is running at maximum capacity. And now what we have seen slight drive around the rolled product, and I hope this will continue, but there is no -- there will be no major changes on the production of the aluminum as the aluminum is at maximum capacity in all areas.

And our next question comes from Ebrahim Alshamasi of GIB Capital.

Congratulation on the set of results. I have couple of questions on my side. First, regarding the shutdowns. So correct me if I am wrong, I think you said that you have -- you've had an unexpected shutdown in the ammonia plant. But did you also have a shutdown in phosphate as well? The second question is regarding the remaining CapEx for the Mansourah-Massarah project. I believe you have -- based on my calculation, I think you have all $300 million less CapEx. The last thing is the flat-rolled products. Could you give us some sense of why the demand in the flat-rolled products are increasing? I think Q4 on Q1 the flat-rolled products contributed a lot to the top line and the bottom line for the Aluminum Segment.

Ebrahim, I will answer the first question and probably you need to rephrase or repeat your second question because I couldn't really follow-up, the voice is -- quality is not good. The first question, yes, we have unexpected shutdown in phosphate and in the ammonia. However, this is combined with extended shutdown. So extended plant shutdown -- can you mute, please? Can you mute? The people who stay -- are not talking, can they mute, please? Okay. Thank you. So you have -- yes. We have unscheduled shutdown, specifically in the phosphate. In the ammonia, we have a scheduled shutdown, which is extended. So they find some other finding during the inspection on the ammonia plant, and they extended for 11 days. So this is about the shutdown. Can you repeat your question, when it's come to the CapEx of Mansourah-Massarah, I couldn't really follow-up because of the voice quality?

Yes. For the CapEx, I think my question is, what is the remaining CapEx for Mansourah-Massarah?

Is it you ask about the unbid cost to the contractor or what? You ask about our spending until today?

Yes. I think -- so in total based on my calculation, the total project is SAR 3.3 billion, so what is the expected of the remaining CapEx?

Well, actually, as mentioned, the budget is USD 880 million. So whatever spent as per the financials, right, we still think that we are going to spend the budget. There might be some saving, but it's early to say right now. So the amount -- actually, you just need to compare it to the $880 million budget of Mansourah-Massarah. So the remaining is what to be spent.

The last question is regarding the flat-rolled products. What is the driver for the growth in that segment?

Sorry, could you repeat the question, please?

What's the driver in the growth for the flat-rolled products?

The -- actually, the driver of the growth and the demand on the flat product is the automotive. We have seen an improvement in the automotive in Europe and United State and with the improvement in the United States, you see less flow from the metal from United States to Europe. So we are replacing this gap. The other thing is the growth in beverage can, which we are focusing unit in Ma'aden aluminum. So those 2 components of the market is really seeing a good improvement and clear recovery during the end of 2020 and the beginning of 2021.

Thank you. We're going to a written question next. Ashwin Gupta from BlackRock is asking what is the target net debt-to-EBITDA for Ma'aden? And what's the level we would be comfortable with? And is there a possibility to push out CapEx to reach lower debt levels?

So thank you for the question. Actually, the target is the business norm. So we want to be -- not different than the other companies in the business. It varies, actually, from a sector to another sector. So the gold is different than the aluminum -- the aluminum is different than the phosphate. But in general, we're targeting the business norm, which is -- I think it's around maybe 2x. This is what I can say in this regard.

Okay. We have another call, Sashank, the other question, Bank of America.

I just have a follow-up again on the phosphate and ammonia shutdown. Would you be able to provide us some color on the operating rates for the DAP 1 unit and the DAP 2 units separately? And just to confirm the shutdowns in the ammonia and the phosphate units were related to Wa’ad Al-Shamal, right?

Not, unfortunately, the shutdown is related to MPC. And the Wa’ad Al-Shamal is -- phosphate unit is really having connectivity with the upstream. However, on those shutdown, all our plants on phosphate 1, which is MPC, is reaching their capacity, reaching their 100%. So anything happen, it means that less utilization of our facility. It happened in ammonia plant and also it happened in the phosphate plant. And currently, we are not expecting this to happen again. And we are doing an investigation of root cause analysis. And I don't think that this usually happen unless you have chronic problem in the plant. I am expecting that those is -- this specifically the ammonia is behind us. The phosphate, we will be able to work around it in case of -- that this present -- this problem is presented again. The investigation is still going on to define the root cost, and we will eliminate it for sure.

Okay. And is it possible to give us the operating rates split for DAP 1 and DAP 2?

Well, actually, DAP 1 is at capacity, right. DAP 2 right now is around 75%.

Another verbal question, [ Indica ].

I have a couple of questions. The first question regarding the bauxite company. We have seen the bauxite company has been making losses. We understand that it is producing the bauxite, the raw material. But this quarter, there is a substantial improvement in performance. Can you give us like could be the reason behind the making such losses continuously? And is there any possibility that company can turn around to profitability?

Okay. The bauxite company actually is an intermediate. It's between the mining and the smelting. So we are producing alumina out of bauxite. This plant has some technical issue. It's resolved currently. It's reached the actual capacity. However, unfortunately, we have been -- if you look to the price trend on our presentation, we will see that the LME price is increasing sharply. However, the alumina is still not moving. So we are having the price about SAR 270 to SAR 280, this is really typically 13% of the LME price. Usually, we are around 16% to 18% of the LME price when it comes to the alumina. So the main reason of the losses of bauxite is the prices and the strong competition from the Australian, Brazilian and also Russia and producing alumina and dump it into the market. We know that the production is really at a very good and high rate in China, which is really injecting more alumina in the market. We hope that the market will improve, but we don't have really clear -- a clear understanding of the market for the time being. However, from operation point of view, the company is doing a great job. From the cost, it's -- this refinery is at the top 10% and -- when it comes to the cost because it's using very difficult bauxite. So it's not from the lower-cost producer. However, we are doing a great job comparing ourselves to the similar refinery. The refinery is doing well.

I have 2 more questions, if you allow me. One is basically, you mentioned aluminum -- sorry, Ammonia 3 plant is right now probably started. I'm not too sure it is a trial run or the commercial production. We have seen ammonia prices going significantly higher recent times. So is there any possibility you produce ammonia from the plant 3 and then sell at higher prices?

No, no. It's not -- I'm not expecting really the production to be in this year, and we are not scheduled to start the production of this year. What we are starting is a precommissioning, which is introducing the gas, producing steam, cleaning the pipeline. However, the production is still.

Okay. Great. The last question from the copper side, I mean, you are doing great in copper side, of course, it's kind of profitable and also the copper prices are going significantly high. Is there any possibility of expanding the copper at this -- at current facility or you won't be -- some additions?

I don't think that the current facility is running more than the design is running very efficiently with our partner, Barrick. However, you know that the extra capacity, which we are using is coming from associated copper with the gold. And we are not expecting really major change on the copper. In the future, yes, copper is in our radar for a future new mine in our strategy as what we presented to you. Copper is a good metal to be in. But I'm not expecting really a very fast turn it on and increase the capacity of the copper.

Okay. One other question, if you allow me, we have been -- sorry, just only one last question. We have seen the numbers, especially the sales, DAP sales to Indian subcontinent is coming down. Is there any structural changes or some disruption happening in India is causing this -- the reduced volume or the sales?

No. No, there is no restructuring. Still India is our market. We are seeing, during this quarter, increase in the demand in India. And you know, the fertilizer is cyclic. And it's not always at the same level. So sometime you have a previous season residual, sometime you have seasonal issues. But we are not seeing -- even with COVID-19, we are not seeing a slowdown in India. So India is still open, still receiving our product, still we have a strong relation with our customer in India, and we are providing the quantities.

Thank you. We have a written question. Faisal from Goldman Sachs, wanted to know whether the Shareek program, that was recently announced, would have an impact on our CapEx.

No Shareek program is a national program, which we are part of it. And definitely, it will have an impact on our investment in the future. It will enhance our investment. And we are an integral part of it. Shareek is really -- and we will have our first meeting -- we had actually our first meeting yesterday in Shareek and I'm seeing Shareek will impact our investment in the future in -- within Saudi Arabia.

And Faisal had a second question. When is the CapEx for Phosphate 3 expected to kick off?

CapEx?

For the CapEx for Phosphate 3 [Audio Gap] or CapEx guidance for 2021, that was another question.

Well, actually, we have started the work on the project of Phos 3. We're a bit slowing down. So we're not expecting much of spending in 2021. But inshallah, 2022 onwards, we will see this going to a higher level.

And then we have another question on the phone, GIB Capital, Saleh.

This is Saleh Alrakaf from GIB Capital. First of all congrats on the results. I -- only 1 question from my side. Is there any scheduled shutdown in Q2 this year?

No. We don't have a scheduled shutdown in this year. So some of these schedule shutdown is advanced for the quarter 1, and I hope that our volume will be on the right target for the next quarters.

And another question on the phone from Mohammed from Jadwa Investments.

Could you please go over the several shutdowns in the first quarter of 2021? The voice was cutting and it wasn't that clear. So I believe you mentioned that there was a shutdown in ammonia, phosphate and gold?

Yes. In the first quarter, we have unscheduled shutdown on phosphate and scheduled, and I you to understand this scheduled shutdown for the ammonia, which is extended because of the finding. So it's the 30-day shutdown schedule extended by 11 days because of finding during the inspection. In the gold, we have an issue with our milling machine. So we advanced the shutdown, which is supposed to be in May. We advanced it on the quarter. So this is the shutdown and unscheduled shutdown and unscheduled -- and the unscheduled is in the phosphate in the sulfuric acid, where we have a leak in one of our reactors. We shut it down. It took us slightly quite good time. And I hope that the team in the Phosphate will be able to recover that of those 3. For the gold, I'm sure they will be in a better position. Thank you. Any further questions?

If I may ask -- yes, please, can you hear me?

Yes, we can hear you.

Yes. So if I may ask, what was the period for the sulfuric acid shutdown and for the gold milling machine? So you mentioned 30 days for the ammonia and was extended by 11?

Yes. I think I'm not sure from the phosphate, but I think it's about 17 days. For the gold, it's supposed to be in May, 7 days per mill, and they end up 6 days per mill. So they are saving 1 day per mill. And they will not have it in May.

We have another written question. [ Asha ] from FALCOM Financial Services would like to know whether we are comfortable with the capital structure? And how it does Ma'aden intend to alter the debt-to-equity mix in line with peers?

Well, actually, we are currently working and looking at the optimum capital structure and that means that we still see that we will -- we can do better in this regard. So we're looking at this. We -- actually, from that point of view, we spoke about that many times that we see that we are a leverage company, and we want to reduce this level to the business norm, and we are working on that.

And then a follow-up question from BlackRock, Ashwin Gupta. Just to confirm that Phosphate 3 CapEx that increase will be in 2022 or 2023?

Okay. We have to go back to the schedule of the Phos 3. I don't see it in front of me right now. But I'm talking about this year, currently, we will not see any major increase, and then we will see the increases from the years to come.

And then 1 question from Mohammed, HSBC. Why was the unplanned shutdown not announced?

Well, the unplanned shutdowns will be announced depends on the amounts or the materiality, right, in regards to how much we're losing compared to our profit. We don't see this as a major. We're following the governance by Tadawul, and we're watching this. So every time, we have a shutdown, we will measure the materiality, and we see whether this is going to be announced or not.

Okay. Thank you. And we're almost out of time, but a good question from Antriksh Gautam from Fasanara Capital. How is Meridian integrating into the operations? How has Ma'aden supported Meridian since the acquisition? And what management changes have been made at Meridian?

Okay. Meridian, the operation integration -- this is, by the way, a very good question. We are working with them. We are almost very integrated when it's come to cybersecurity. We have pretty strong relationship with them. And we want to strengthen their cybersecurity until -- before we are merging our 2 systems together. We are focusing in improving the safety on their plant and their areas. In the operation, there is a very strong synergy between our sales people and the management. We are currently having few positions on the organization. Still, the old management is managing Meridian. And we are working with them to take over the management soon. We are -- Ma'aden embarking on ERP system, and there is a team who is studying how we can consolidated the 2 ERP system together. And probably, this will be a very delicate process because they are working in retail and we are working in main and commodity business. So we need really to work this out. That's all what I can -- do you want to add anything on this?

Thank you, Abdulaziz. Actually, also on the other areas like finance, tax, treasury, HR and all other areas, we have conducted a gap analysis that to identify also all these weaknesses or resemblance that we see between the processes. And we are working, inshallah, right, to bring Meridian to the same level of Ma'aden, considering again -- considering the cost and the optimum cost of Meridian.

Okay. So we are coming to the end of this conference call. We started bang on time. We're also going to finish on time. There's like 2 or 3 questions submitted in writing. We will follow-up like immediately. And thank you very much for your interest in Ma'aden. Any questions, we are an e-mail or phone call away. Have a good day. Thank you.

Thank you. Thank you very much all.

This concludes today's call. Thank you for your participation. You may now disconnect.