Senseonics Holdings, Inc. (SENS) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

October 25, 2024

NASDAQ US Health Care Health Care Equipment and Supplies special 73 min

Earnings Call Speaker Segments

Operator

operator
#1

Good morning, and welcome to the Senseonics Holdings, Virtual KOL event. [Operator Instructions] As a reminder, this call is being recorded, and a replay will be made available on the Senseonics website following the conclusion of the event. Before we begin, I'd like to reference you to the forward-looking statements and legal disclaimer slide on the screen. I'd now like to turn the call over to Tim Goodnow, President and Chief Executive Officer at Senseonics. Please go ahead, Tim.

Tim Goodnow

executive
#2

Good morning, everyone, and thank you for joining us today. I'm Tim Goodnow, the CEO of Senseonics. We appreciate your time and interest as we share exciting developments about our Eversense 365 continuous glucose monitoring system. As many of you know, Eversense 365 is the world's first and only CGM system that provides continuous glucose monitoring for an entire year, this with a simple single sensor insertion. Additionally, as part of our recent approval, we're excited that the FDA labeling recognizes the accuracy that we've achieved while requiring only one finger-stick calibration per week for the year. Eversense 365 also received the iCGM designation, which not only speaks to its high level of accuracy, but it also enables pump connectivity for those using AID systems. And we're happy to report that Senseonics is currently working with those pump companies for these integrations, and we look forward to reporting on these developments in the coming quarters. Its 1-year life is significant since traditional CGMs require users to replace their sensors every week or 2, which involves time-consuming sensor insertions, warm-up periods, discomfort from multiple insertions and the resulting CGM interruptions due to the need for multiple sensors each week. We're confident patients will prefer the simplicity of a quick weekly fingerstick over the inconvenience of frequent sensor insertions. In the real world, many sensors end early and do not last the advertised life of 10 to 14 days. By minimizing the need for frequent sensor insertions without short-term transcutaneous sensors, Eversense 365 offers a much more convenient and user-friendly experience for patients. For providers, a continuous 1-year sensor enables high compliance and minimizes data gaps, lost sensors, patient attrition and patients taking extended breaks from their device. So this recent FDA clearance is not just a milestone for Senseonics but a significant breakthrough in diabetes technology management and a 1-year sensor has been our goal from the beginning. And our market research confirms that 1 year is the time frame that patients want. Our world-class technology team has achieved what very few thought was possible. Now we're honored and excited to bring this groundbreaking technology to the millions of patients who have a need for a solution that delivers on the full promise of CGM, optimal diabetes management, protection and the convenience. Eversense 365 delivers on all fronts without the hassles and frustrations of a short-term CGM. Today, we're here to discuss the clinical and population health implications of a 1-year sensor versus the need for at least 25 and frequently more transcutaneous sensors every year. Before introducing our 2 speakers, I want to first walk through what we hope you'll take away from today's discussion. We could speak all day long about the attributes and benefits of Eversense 365. Now that the product is proved, our focus turns to supporting the commercial execution and ensuring that we can provide access to all patients who can benefit from our 1-year sensor. We're pursuing a multipronged commercial strategy to make Eversense 365 available as broadly as possible, far beyond our previous generations. As part of this strategy around our partnership with Ascensia Diabetes Care, led by Brian Hanson, who earlier joined as Ascensia's President of their CGM business, Brian has a long and distinguished career in leading commercial organizations to success. Previously as Chief Commercial Officer of Tandem Diabetes, this will be our first commercial launch with Brian at the helm, and we are confident that his knowledge and expertise along with the team he has built is poised to make Eversense 365 our most successful product launch ever. We're thrilled that Brian will be joining us for our upcoming third quarter earnings call in November. So you'll have an opportunity to ask him questions about the launch in just a few weeks. Today, we're honored to have 2 esteemed clinicians and health care leaders that are with us who will share their insight and experience with Eversense 365, Dr. Jeff Ciaramita and Dr. David Ahn. Dr. Ciaramita is the President of Specialty Service lines at Mercy, one of the nation's most innovative health care systems. He has been instrumental in our collaboration, leading the integration of Everson 365 within Mercy Health System. Dr. Ciaramita will discuss the significance of our collaboration as it relates to patients, the cost of care and the importance of innovation within health care. This collaboration with Mercy will demonstrate a new approach to bringing Eversense to market that will knock down many of the barriers that patient face in starting and continuing on CGM. It represents a major step forward in making a long-term CGM accessible to a broader population of people with diabetes and we're thrilled that things have already begun underway with the first 365 insertion having been completed at Mercy 2 weeks ago. The integration of Eversense 365 with the Mercy's health care system is a pivotal staff. Mercy's commitment to patient-centered care and health care innovation aligns perfectly with our mission to improve the lives of people with diabetes through cutting-edge technology. Together with our new remote patient monitoring capability, we aim to enhance patient outcomes, reduce health care costs beyond the CGM alone and set new standards in diabetes management. With a successful commercial launch through Mercy, we look forward to collaborating with other health systems and ACOs to expand access to tens of thousands of patients in other systems. Mercy is already serving as a valuable case study and is committed to helping us translate its approach and results to other leading health systems. These systems want self-sustaining solutions and do not have time for repeated starts and stops. Our health system strategy is uniquely enabled by Eversense 365 and is a significant differentiator compared to previous launches. In addition to the traditional professional sales channel, and direct-to-consumer strategies that rely on one patient and one provider at a time, this approach enables a system to proactively identify patient populations in need and accelerate the realization of the benefit of CGM for both the patient and the health care system. Before going further on Mercy and the opportunity we have with its health system, it's important to understand what the core of what makes Eversense 365 essential to the future of diabetes care as its clinical value to both the patient and the provider. In a moment, you'll hear from Dr. David Ahn, who has been using Eversense in his practice since our first 90-day sensor. He'll share with you the impact Eversense has had on his patients and how it sees Eversense 365 extending that even further going forward. Dr. Ahn is an endocrinologist specializing in diabetes and metabolism and currently serves as the Chief of Diabetes Services at Hoag Medical Group. With a passion for empowering individuals with type 1 and type 2 diabetes, Dr. Ahn has a keen interest in depth of experience in diabetes technology, including continuous glucose monitors, insulin delivery and AID systems. Following their presentations, we'll open up the floor for a live question-and-answer session. We encourage you to submit your questions to questions at lifesciadvisors.com and we'll address as many of them as time allows. Once again, thank you for joining us. We believe that Eversense 365 represents a significant advancement in diabetes care and offers a highly differentiated solution. and we're excited to now have this breakthrough technology for people with diabetes. Now without further ado, I'd like to turn it over to Dr. David Ahn.

David T. Ahn

attendee
#3

Hello. My name is David Ahn. I'm an adult endocrinologist. I'm the Chief of Diabetes Services for Hoag Hospital, which is a large regional hospital in Newport Beach, California. Personally, I'm very passionate about diabetes technology, which is why I'm really happy and honored to be able to advocate for Eversense 365. The Eversense 365 is a different type of CGM, which makes me really excited. I'm a big believer in options for patients because every person with diabetes is not the same. And I think it's easy for us to just assume everybody is going to be best with the same type of system, but that's just not how it is when it comes to diabetes devices. You have to find the right CGM for the right person. And the Eversense 365 is a totally different type of product, very different from the transcutaneous competitors on the market. I'm sure you already know this, but obviously, the fact that this is a 1-year sensor versus a 7- to 15-day sensor is such a big difference. And I think one of the biggest differentiators comes in the removability of the sensor. So I always like to kind of describe it by, I think with current CGM systems, diabetes has been kind of in this box. We've all kind of gotten accustomed to this world where you have to wear a sensor, it has to be on you 24/7 for 7 to 15 days, if it falls off, you have to put it back -- or if it falls off, you can't put it back on, and you have to get it replaced at the pharmacy. And when I talk to patients who are newly starting CGM, that can be very intimidating. Some of them are not yet ready to fully expose their diabetes to the public. So the fact that they can have a continuous glucose monitor that they can take off when they get shy and put it back on when they feel more comfortable is really quite fascinating for patients. And a lot of times, it will get them over that hump of being willing to try CGM. And I live in Orange County, so I have a lot of patients that go to the beach and they love the fact that they can just take off their CGM, go swim in the ocean and then when they come back to shore, put on their CGM. So it's great to have this completely different type of CGM that has a totally different list of benefits that -- for patients to choose from. Other things that make the Eversense particularly unique is the fact that it has vibratory alerts. So you may or may not have thought about this before, but the Eversense is the only CGM on the market that has a vibratory sensation that comes from the motor on the transmitter so you don't have to have your phone nearby to know whether you're going high or low. So imagine you're giving a presentation, you're at the meeting, you turn off your phone because you don't want it to embarrass you. But you can still know if you're going high or low based on a vibratory pattern that only you will be able to feel during that meeting. Or similarly, if you're -- I have a patient who was kayaking in the ocean and he would leave his phone on the shore because he didn't want it to get damaged or lost, but he would still wear his Eversense because he would be able to know just based on the vibrations, whether he's going too high or too low. Another population that does really well on the Eversense are patients that have adhesive issues with continuous glucose monitors or with Band-Aids or things like that. That patient population is actually a larger percent of the population than you might think because type 1 diabetes is an autoimmune condition just like a lot of these adhesive allergic reactions that people will have to various adhesives. So the Eversense adhesive is much more gentle on the skin because it's meant to -- it doesn't have to be designed to last 10 to 15 days. Usually, the Eversense adhesive can be changed every day or multiple times a day, you can actually peel it off and put it back on a couple of times. So the adhesive is extremely gentle on the skin and essentially, we'll have no allergic skin reactions. And that can be a game changer for my patients because many of my patients aren't able to wear a traditional CGM at all or they just can't wear it long enough because they get such skin reactions from the adhesives. Another big frustration that people have with the mainstream CGMs is that they can get knocked off. And like I alluded to earlier, if they get knocked off, you can't put back on a traditional CGM. Thankfully, with the Eversense, literally, you can just slap back on the transmitter, it's actually designed to be taken off and put back on. So there's -- even if you walk through a door frame and it knocks off the transmitter, it's totally fine because you could just slap it right back on. You don't have to contact the manufacturer to get a replacement. You don't have to explain everything to a pharmacy, you don't have to worry about it, you just slap back on the transmitter, which is a huge advantage to the Eversense. So I also find that patients who are quite athletic, really like to use the Eversense as well because I guess it kind of speaks to the same thing, but I have a couple of patients who like to do mixed martial arts. Naturally, when people are doing physical combat sports, they might knock off the sensor. And so it's really nice to have a sensor that they can put back on. The other thing that's really special about the Eversense is that it's quite accurate in the low blood sugar range. The low blood sugar range is particularly problematic with traditional continuous glucose monitors. There's a phenomenon that you may or may not have experience if you've worn one in your own personal life, but there's something called compression lows, where if you're wearing a traditional continuous glucose monitor and you fall asleep and you kind of are applying pressure to it while you sleep, there can be a measurement artifact where it produces a false low alert, and this can be very disturbing to your sleep, to any partners who might be in your bed with you, it's disturbing to their sleep when it's purely a measurement artifact. It's not a true low blood sugar. But the good thing about the Eversense 365 is that it has virtually no issues with pressure lows and it's been shown to be extremely accurate in the low blood sugar range, which, of course, for patients with type 1 diabetes or type 2 diabetes on insulin, we're very concerned and worry about low blood sugar accuracy. So the fact that the Eversense 365 is so accurate in the low blood sugar range is a huge feather in its cap. I do have a pretty large population of Medicare-age patients who have found Eversense to be a great option for them. A lot of times, they have dexterity issues, their fingers aren't as -- they're not able to do as fine motor tasks. So the fact that they don't have to do these insertions every 7 to 15 days is extremely valuable. I do the heavy lifting or the proceduralist does the heavy lifting by putting the sensor in and all they have to do is put on the transmitter, but it's just like plop and stick and pull off and -- so it's very easy. They don't have to press any buttons or apply any pressure or do any fine motor movements. Also for that Medicare age population, it has vibratory alerts, so if they're hard of hearing and then they can't hear the typical sound alerts from their phone or their watch -- and I find that sometimes the older population, they're great at using smartphones, but they get confused by the alerts. So I find that they do really well with the vibratory alerts on the Eversense because there's no confusion. They know exactly what the alert has to do with, it has to do with their sensor and there's a unique pattern for high blood sugar and a unique pattern for low blood sugar. Also unique to -- or not unique, but especially important for the Medicare population as we get concerned about low blood sugar. As you get older, we're more prone to low blood sugar episodes and more vulnerable to them. So the fact that the Eversense 365 is so accurate in the low blood sugar range is crucial for the patients that are above the age of 65. So I found that many of my patients do very well on Eversense who are in the Medicare range. Along those lines, the amount of bulk and just supplies that you have that come with Eversense is so few. So imagine over the course of the year, how many boxes of supplies, disposable plastics that you're having to throw away if you're going to use something like a standard transcutaneous continuous glucose monitor. But when you're using the Eversense, literally all you have is a charging cable which you can actually use a generic micro USB, any micro USB charging cable to charge the Eversense 365 transmitter. And really, the only other thing you have to carry around are adhesive pads, which are basically the thickness of like Post-it notes. So you can theoretically have a whole year of supplies in a simple box in your hand of adhesive pads and a charging cable and the Eversense transmitter. And that's pretty mind-blowing to patients as well because I don't know if you have any family members or loved ones with type 1 diabetes or something like that, but going to Europe on a 2-week trip can be a real point of stress because you're having to carry around extra Dexcom supplies just in case they fall off because you can't replace it, which we already talked about before. So something like the Eversense, I think, just presents such unique value propositions that I love that there is another completely different type of CGM on the market. Like I said earlier, I don't think that every person necessarily needs to be on an Eversense. But I think the fact that you can have an option for patients that are struggling on the current transcutaneous sensors is what really makes the Eversense so valuable. And kind of speaking to that point, one of the things that I'm really excited about the Eversense 365 for is that it does integrate with automated insulin delivery systems. You probably know that automated insulin delivery systems have been a game changer for patients with diabetes, but I have many patients that can't go on automated insulin delivery because they can't tolerate or they can't work with the current options of CGM on the market. So I'm so excited that Eversense 365 will eventually be able to partner and integrate with these automated insulin delivery systems. So for my patients that have to use Eversense because it's their only functional CGM option, they'll finally be able to unlock the glucose control benefits that automated insulin delivery brings to the market. And I have some patients right now who like, literally, they've told me they're going to contact their pump manufacturer because they cannot wait until it integrates with Eversense 365 because they'll finally be able to have those benefits of automated insulin delivery. One concern that I think some people get scared of when thinking about Eversense is the whole concept of the procedure. But I found that it hasn't been a barrier at all. I have one patient who actually prefers Eversense because he is needle-phobic, which is a little bit might seem counterintuitive because it does involve a procedure. However, the way he sees it is I'm the one doing the procedure, so he doesn't have to really think about it it's currently once every 6 months, but his next one, of course, is going to be once every year. And after that, he doesn't have to do the puncture that the CGM brings every 7 to 15 days. So he really likes that even though he's very averse to incisions and needles, he actually prefers the Eversense because it takes that process sort of away from him, and it just offloads it onto the inserter once every 6 months or a year, depending on which brand of Eversense you're talking about. The other thing is the insertion process is extremely feasible and extremely doable if you're interested in doing it. So for me, I like doing the procedures. I like being able to do different types of things in my practice and having different types of interactions with my patients. So for me, I found it to be really enjoyable and refreshing to be able to do the procedure. The insertions are very, very quick, from incision to close, it's 30 seconds. The removal is variable in time because you do have to find it and pull it out. But still, it's 95% of the procedures are going to be under 5 minutes. And if they go a little bit longer, it's under 10 minutes tops. So the procedures are very straightforward, and that hasn't really been an issue at all with me. Similarly, for doctors or I guess, I should say, for doctors that aren't interested in doing the procedure, there is a really vast inserter network that Eversense has built out over the years. So they have -- so there are other clinicians that are ready and able to do these procedures if the endocrinologist or diabetes prescriber is not wanting to do the procedure themselves. So finding an inserter should be very doable for patients across the country. Yes. So overall, I think the Eversense is a really fantastic option for patients that are just not finding the current solutions is fitting them. One of the things -- one of the pain points that I didn't really highlight is dealing with pharmacies and durable medical equipment supply companies. That's probably one of the hardest and most frustrating things now for people living with type 1 diabetes especially, but also type 2 diabetes, having to reach out to these pharmacies and DME companies every 3 months, every 6 months, to get more supplies -- and that's something I'm also very much looking forward to with the Eversense 365 is that you're only going to have to deal with your insurance company to get a new sensor every year. And I think patients will really welcome that time frame. So in many ways, like I said, I think the Eversense has always been a great product, a great option for patients. But I think the 365 product, especially really upgrades and clears a lot of the hurdles that some people might have previously had with Eversense, and that's why I'm very excited for Eversense to see their market grow. I think especially as they integrate with automated insulin delivery, it's going to become a very popular option for people on the market that just are not finding that the Dexcoms and Libres and Medtronics of the world are meeting their needs as much as they should. So I'm really excited for the Eversense 365. So thank you so much for allowing me to share with you about my experience with Eversense. I'm super excited about these next 6 months, and I can't wait to see the popularity of this system rise. So yes, now back to you, Tim.

Tim Goodnow

executive
#4

Thank you, Dr. Ahn, for your insights and for sharing your experiences helping patients manage their diabetes. I especially appreciated your passion for how greatly patients benefit from new-generation diabetes management technologies like CGM and AID systems. We're especially proud to have secured an iCGM approval for Eversense 365. And as I mentioned earlier, I look forward to updating you further as we integrate 365 with AID systems. It's now my pleasure to turn the call over to Dr. Jeff Ciaramita, who, as I mentioned earlier, is President of Specialty Service Lines at Mercy. Thank you, Jeff. The floor is yours.

Jeff Ciaramita

attendee
#5

Hello, it's nice to be with you all today. I'm Dr. Jeff Ciaramita, I'm practicing cardiologist and President of Specialty Care at Mercy. It's a true pleasure and exciting opportunity for me to be speaking with you all today. At Mercy, we are one of the top 20 largest health care systems in America, with nearly 5,000 employed physicians and advanced practice providers covering more than 50 hospitals and 1,000 clinics across our Midwest. Our mission and goals have always been focused on consumers, our patients. Our patients deserve the trifecta, what I say is delivering the highest quality yet lowest total cost of care with a deep focus on innovation and a frictionless experience when they seek us out for their care. At Mercy, as the #1 performing ACO for quality metrics in the United States today, we take pride in our excellence in managing chronic conditions like diabetes, which affect millions of people worldwide. Our commitment is to continually seek out and adopt cutting-edge technologies that can significantly improve the lives of our patients. We were thrilled to announce that Mercy was the first health system in the world to implant the Eversense 365 continuous glucose monitoring system. This groundbreaking collaboration with Senseonics marks a milestone not just for our organization, but for diabetes care globally. As with all chronic conditions such as congestive heart failure, chronic kidney disease and diabetes, access to real-time actionable data is imperative to actually improving medical outcomes. These outcomes include overall long-term diabetes control but also immediate benefits, such as keeping patients out of the emergency room or having glucose emergencies requiring intervention. Obtaining constant and reliable glucose data is the foundation. And at Mercy, we recognize that the positive outcomes of CGM utilization are well established. However, the reality is that the majority of patients who could benefit from a CGM today are not using these devices. They are either not started on a CGM or alternatively are started on a CGM, but don't continue to take or take extended breaks from their device. At Mercy, we have 30,000 patients alone on insulin that could benefit from a CGM. This underutilization isn't due to a lack of awareness or reimbursement. Both of those are firmly in place. Instead, challenges like complicated acquisition processes, limitations of traditional CGM devices and limited patient understanding of the benefits all hinder higher adoption rates. This is where the advantages of Eversense and the capabilities of Mercy come together. With Eversense, our patients will experience exceptional accuracy and unparalleled convenience in managing their diabetes. The ability to monitor glucose levels continuously for up to a year with a single and simple sensor insertion is simply a game changer. It minimizes the inconvenience, discomfort and higher costs associated with frequent sensor replacements that has thus far limited the adoption and compliance with CGMs in the United States today. We anticipate that this advanced technology will lead to improved glycemic control and reduction in both hypo and hyperglycemic events by providing consistent and reliable glucose data. Patients can make more informed decisions about their health. Clinicians, too, will benefit from access to comprehensive data, allowing for more personalized and effective treatment plans that soon will be incorporated directly into the nation's largest electronic health record. Beyond all of the obvious patient benefits that a 365-day CGM provides, I believe the impacts on population health are transformative and cannot nor should not be underestimated. That is why health care system of our size, with greater than 50% of our overall system revenue coming from patients within some form of value-based care reimbursement model is committed to this unique, innovative and expansive collaboration. We absolutely expect a significant reduction in diabetes-related hospitalizations and emergency room visits. Continuous high-fidelity data results in tighter glucose control, which means fewer acute events that not only improve patient outcomes, but also reduces the overall cost of care. Long-term monitoring leads to cost savings by preventing complications before they require intensive care acutely and in some cases, an extra ER visit or hospitalization. Both of these situations hurt the patient's outcomes, their experiences and do not support our focus on value. Eversense will also positively impact the known long-term deleterious consequences of uncontrolled diabetes, with the associated higher costs appear therein, a key metric that matters to everyone in health care. At Mercy, we're dedicated to adopting innovative solutions that improve patient care in every community that we are honored to serve. Back in 2015, Mercy invested more than $50 million to build the world's first completely virtual peer hospital with the ability to deliver remote patient monitoring inside that facility. Building upon our experience and expertise in this realm, we are perhaps most excited about the near-future plans to similarly improve diabetes care 24/7/365. Later this year, we'll be implementing Eversense's remote patient monitoring service at Mercy and Mercy Virtual. This service will allow clinicians to monitor patients' glucose levels and patterns in between office visits, enabling timely invention, personalized care adjustments and the opportunity to prevent avoidable costly emergency room visits. No longer will we be solely reliant upon patients giving us occasional blood levels during their physician office visits that are many times many months apart and often after long delays to treatment plan changes that should have occurred much sooner. Remote patient monitoring and its inherent proactive approach means we can address potential issues before they become serious problems, and all the results will be a part of the patient's electronic health record. I know this will enhance patient engagement and lead to even better clinical and economic outcomes. We believe that our integration of Eversense 365 into Mercy's care model and platform will serve as a model for other health systems. Our goal is to establish a new standard, a much higher standard in diabetes population management that prioritizes patient convenience while proving better clinical outcomes. The scalability and adaptability of this approach make it a viable option for health systems of all sizes across our country. And because we will always keep patients in the center of everything that we do at Mercy, we are committed to collaborating with other health systems to expand the adoption of this transformative technology. By sharing our insights and results, we hope to encourage widespread adoption and ultimately improve diabetes care on a larger scale. The collaboration between Mercy and Senseonics' Eversense exemplifies our dedication to improving patient lives through innovation. We are excited about the possibilities that Eversense 365 brings not only for our patients but for the future of diabetes management. Mercy is honored to be recognized as a pioneer to implant the world's first 365-day CGM within this collaboration and look forward to engaging with the diabetes community to further this important work together. Your support and interest are invaluable as we embark on this journey together. I really want to thank you for your time and attention today. I'm excited to answer any questions that you all might have as well. Thank you.

Tim Goodnow

executive
#6

Thank you, Jeff. We are indeed grateful to you and to the entire Mercy team for your support, and we look forward to a long and fruitful relationship, improving the lives of people with diabetes. With that, we will now open it up to take your questions. You can direct those to Dr. Ahn, Dr. Ciaramita, to me and also joining us for Q&A is our Chief Medical Officer, Dr. Fran Kaufman.

Operator

operator
#7

Great. Thank you, Tim. [Operator Instructions] So our first question comes from Marie Thibault at BTIG.

Marie Thibault

analyst
#8

Doctors, really appreciate your insights here. I have 2 questions. I think the first is probably best suited for Dr. Ahn. You talked a lot about the perceived advantages of Eversense and you obviously have a lot of familiarity with the 6-month device. I'm just curious how much of a difference we will see between the 1-year option and the 6 months. Do you have a sense of how many of your candidate patients would say no to a 6-month, but yes to 1-year? It's obviously much more convenient.

David T. Ahn

attendee
#9

Great question. I think -- I mean, I've already seen personally an uptick in responsiveness to my patients to the Eversense system. I would actually say the bigger impression that I think for the bigger value, obviously doubling the length of time is huge. But I think the change in calibration requirement is actually the biggest advantage to patients, that are appealing to them who maybe passed on it before, so the fact that you're going from 1 calibration a day to 1 calibration a week, I think is the bigger advantage that patients are drawn to. So I am seeing a noticeable change in attitude. I think a lot of times when I say 1 calibration a day for the 6-month product, patients would kind of be like, okay, that's cool, but maybe not right for me. But when I say it's 1 calibration a week, pretty much everybody is like, oh, I can do 1 calibration a week. So I think that's the biggest change that I've seen in my patients when I talk to them.

Marie Thibault

analyst
#10

Okay. That's really, really helpful, definitely. 1 week -- a weekly calibration, very helpful. And then maybe my second question for Dr. Ciaramita. At Mercy, it's a very interesting effort you're taking -- undertaking here. I'm curious how -- if I'm remembering correctly, this was going to be done through the electrophysiology unit. I'm curious how that's fitting into the workflow and what you're seeing so far with some of this -- with the procedures getting done in the electrophysiology. We cover a lot of companies in EP and certainly know those folks are very, very busy.

Jeff Ciaramita

attendee
#11

Yes. Certainly. Good morning, everybody. It's great to be with you. To answer your question, in Mercy in St. Louis, where my office is right now, we employ over 1,200 physicians and nearly another 1,000 advanced practitioners. As we started this journey in collaboration with Senseonics a year ago, we outlined a broad team that would look at all of the different, we'll call it, work streams that would promote faster, greater and more broad adoption, essentially, of the Eversense 365. One of the things that we heard across our system with Mercy was that in the past, there have been challenges with what, we'll call it, an implantation strategy. And what I mean by challenges is just simply, we have very busy primary care docs, endocrinologists, those that came up, maybe not necessarily with a procedural background or procedural bent even, if you will, that would have interest in implanting these. For us in St. Louis, we have 65 employed physicians, we have more than that surgeons, and we have a number of physicians who not only have a preference and interest in implantations of devices. So in my world, my cardiology world, we know there's plenty of implantable cardiac monitors that we implant every single day. But that predominance and number of physicians that we have allowed us to establish implantation clinics. So essentially, although you referenced electrophysiologists, we have surgical offices, we have procedural offices all throughout the metro area, where it's not a one-to-one, "Hey, can we get this patient in or slow things down?" We've actually built clinics where we'll be able to do 10, 20, even 30 patients all very quickly in a short period of time out of 1 office. So I think the answer is we have experience in implanting in our offices and our lower cost centers, not bringing patients into hospitals or some of those higher acuity care. And so that's where we're going to start because we believe there is the greatest chance for success.

Operator

operator
#12

Our next question comes from Colin Clark at Stifel.

Colin Clark

analyst
#13

I'll start with one for Dr. Ahn. I had a question -- another question about the duration extension from 180 to a full year. How does it actually play out in your practice? And maybe how does it play out for other physicians? For you, have any patients in particular, been holding out that now would consider an Eversense now that it's a full year? And does it expand the number of patients to whom you'd consider prescribing Eversense? And then I guess you've been at the buzz -- you've been in the middle of the buzz of Eversense for so long, does this change how it resonates with your fellow physicians when you hear people talk about Eversense and who they're willing to prescribe to?

David T. Ahn

attendee
#14

Great questions. I'll try to remember them. I know they're all kind of related. So I guess to start from most recent, I do think there is a lot more interest in the prescribing community and obviously, the patient population as well. I think there's a variety of reasons for this. I think I think the CGM market has matured quite a bit. And I think with the current products, the current transcutaneous products on the market, they're solving problems for a lot of people, but I think they are also gaps in the population where we all know now, right, that essentially CGM should be standard of care. But for a sizable number of patients, they're just not finding the current solutions to be a good fit. The sensors don't last long enough. They have accuracy issues, customer support issues. And it's funny because certain patients really have repeat problems. And it's very frustrating for them. And I've talked with them, and they've been waiting for other options. So when I -- a lot of times if someone's complaining about these things, I'll always mention, hey, there are other options on the market like Eversense. And now when I tell them, it's 1 year, down to 1 calibration a week, it's going to integrate with insulin pumps. And I think that's when patients now are kind of like, oh, like I remember you mentioning it before, but now I'm a lot more interested. So I do think the market is kind of changing and there is more receptiveness now to different options, almost as the market has matured. I kind of liken it to -- the CGM market to like the iPhone in the sense that like for the first 5 years, you could do no wrong, right? Any CGM was better than no CGM. But now I think people are starting to become more critical of the options on the market and noticing that a lot of them just by nature of being transcutaneous have the same flaws, that aren't going to necessarily be fixed by small iteration. So I think that's why I'm so excited about having a totally different paradigm for CGM.

Colin Clark

analyst
#15

That's really helpful. It seems like 365 is the magic number. I guess I also had one question for Dr. Ciaramita about Mercy in particular. We generally hear about lack of coverage or awareness as primary reasons patients don't adopt CGM, but you mentioned patient acquisition processes, limitations of existing CGM as some of the reasons that Mercy patients might not have adopted sensors. These tend to be a little bit out of the norm. Can you speak a bit to the specific actions Mercy is taking to knock down some of these adoption barriers that we don't generally hear about?

Jeff Ciaramita

attendee
#16

Sure. That's a great question. First, maybe if I could just take a brief moment about Mercy's kind of primary care background. Today, as I mentioned just a moment ago, over 50% of our system revenue, a little over $9 billion of annual revenue is tied to a reimbursement model that's some form of risk. So that could be Medicare Advantage, ACO, could be our own employee patients, but it's also all of our direct employer contracts that we have. Said another way, we get compensated on different factors that primarily include quality outcomes and our ability to lower costs. So that's different than your traditional all-in, only fee-for-service model with our massive patient populations that we have. And nearly 1,000 primary care providers that we have across our 4 state system, we get compensated and benefit if the patient wins, the patient wins by higher quality. So we are looking to adopt, and this is what sparked our interest from a population health perspective, any technology that would give us higher fidelity data, but more importantly, higher compliance on data. So to be clear, we love CGMs because CGMs provide data. But we really love, and our interest a year ago when 365 was on the horizon, came because we believe that there's a higher compliance rate proven from the longer uninterrupted data that can be created from the 365 monitor. In turn, a system like ours that has an integrated platform, that has de-identified, tokenized data, in our Mercy Mayo Clinic platform. Our intelligent data platform, what we're looking for is not only can we get continuous data that's high fidelity for that acute patient, but how can we start to apply predictive analytics to predict outcomes before they happen in our patients. So the bottom line comes for us, the more data that we have and the more ability to get continuous data, we believe we can affect broader entire population outcomes. From there, the more we publish our outcomes and improve patient care, we think the adoption will go up continuously. And we think our scale can help add to that a little bit faster than the traditional models that have done in the past.

Operator

operator
#17

Thanks for the questions, Colin. So I'll now turn it over to Tim to read the questions that came over the webcast.

Tim Goodnow

executive
#18

Great. Thanks, and we'll pull those up. Yes. Okay. So for the folks that are writing in, we do appreciate it. First up, a question for you, Dr. Ahn. Can you -- and you touched a little bit on this, but maybe just a little bit more color on any pent-up demand that may exist for the 365, and then what your experience has been with out-of-pocket patient costs as they choose that might be different with Eversense 365 versus the other transcutaneous options that are available.

David T. Ahn

attendee
#19

Yes. So in terms of pent-up demand, it's hard to say because I think CGM is so important, right? So it's -- in my patient population, I'm a very big believer in prescriber for CGM. So it's hard to say because -- I don't know. It's -- I think the best way to answer it is kind of how I did before in that when I hear pain points from patients, which is common, right, some are huge pain points that are deal-breakers, some are not deal-breakers, that's when I try to go over options. And that comes down to anything, whether it's a pump, whether it's medications. And so I feel like -- the best way I can explain it is that when I -- initially, when I would -- being a believer in Eversense even before, I would often mention it to my patients, but a lot of patients would just kind of stop at the calibration point and kind of say, "Oh, you know what, I really prefer these calibration-free systems." And so now when I'm telling them it's 1 year, and it's 1 calibration a week, I think that's when people are like, "Hey, that actually sounds really appealing." So it's hard to kind of quantify perhaps but just the reception and interest level when you talk to patients and you kind of lay out that value proposition is totally different. I think the real pent-up demand will unlock once AID happens because I think a lot of my type 1 patients are benefiting from automated insulin delivery. So I think that's what -- that's -- I think this product is already gaining steam and then I think the lid will blow off once integration with AID is announced. I think there was another question. What was the other question, Tim? Sorry.

Tim Goodnow

executive
#20

Just anything that you may see in regards to patient-level cost. Do you see a difference between the traditional transcutaneous and Eversense?

David T. Ahn

attendee
#21

Yes. Well, it obviously depends on what the specific program is in place. My understanding of the current program for the 365 versus the last program is that it's, overall, very similar. And when you are able to take advantage of that program, it's actually cheaper in a month-to-month cost basis for patients because like the previous system, it would be $100 for the product with the PASS program plus a procedure fee that might run $300 or $400. So even if you're being generous, that's like $500 for 6 months. So that's less than $100 a month, which on a cash basis is less than like half the price of the Dexcom, maybe cheaper depending on the procedure fee than the Libre. And I think that price point is essentially going to be the same, if not slightly cheaper on the new version of PASS program for the Eversense 365. To what I think people on the call might want to hear is that to me, in my understanding, I could be wrong, I'm not part of the Eversense company, but the new program I'm told is -- one limitation is that it's going to be limited to insurances that do cover the Eversense. However, in my practice, and California is typically very challenging to penetrate all the insurances, the insurance wins that Eversense has gained over the past 5 years, really take a huge chunk of my patients, right? So they have Medicare coverage, they have Aetna, Cigna, Anthem Blue Cross and that's the majority of my patients, UnitedHealthcare. Once again, I don't work for the company, so you can't quote me on any of those, but I'm pretty confident in those coverage of my patients. So all those patients can take advantage of the PASS -- the new PASS program. And that's going to come in at essentially the same price point, if not slightly cheaper on a month-to-month basis. So I think that's actually one of the sneaky benefits of Eversense is that on a monthly cash pay prices, like out-of-pocket prices basis, I think it can actually be the cheapest CGM on the market.

Francine Kaufman

executive
#22

Tim, if I could kind of augment what David just said. So I think there is an issue -- David is an endocrinologist, his practice is predominantly type 1, but I think there's a huge pent-up demand in the type 2 population, which is what Jeff is going to be able to address, in that those on basal insulin really seeing the benefit of CGM at this point, along with their -- obviously, their health care providers. And that this for a type 2 patient in particular, is such a great option, and they don't have to order, they don't have to insert. It's done by the health care provider. And once-a-week calibration really will kind of overshadow the fact that they're going to have to change out a sensor every 7, 10 or 14, 15 days. So I think it is a pent-up demand in a population that David -- and I'm an endocrinologist as well, we don't necessarily see as much in Jeff's entire system, that's what they're going to be addressing. And I do want to add to David, that if you have insurance, the program is available, whether it covers it or not.

Tim Goodnow

executive
#23

Next question has to do -- maybe I can speak to it, has to do with we studied the weekly calibration performance by patients to date and what data do we have to share. Yes, we certainly have, in fact, all of the clinical trial data to date has been done with a weekly calibration scheme as opposed to any other. Quite frankly, this system will prompt you and remind you that you have a calibration coming up. So compliance with that has been very good, and the accuracy data is dependent on that calibration frequency. So there is a question for Dr. Ciaramita regarding internal assumptions on the number of patients. You mentioned that there were 30,000 patients on insulin that were not on CGM, in the Mercy system. Do you have any feel over the next 3 years as to how many folks you would anticipate would go on Eversense? And is there any market research that might support that?

Jeff Ciaramita

attendee
#24

Sure. Yes. And just to note that those 30,000 type 2 diabetics on insulin now -- in the past year, for instance, we increased the patients that we've seen through our primary care offices by 180,000. So even that data is likely to be outdated and continue to grow up and up. In regards to how many of those -- I think I want to get back to my previous answer about population health for us. We, as a system, whether they are at-risk patients, those I think are easy to understand Medicare Advantage ACO, that at-risk population, but also our patients with commercial insurance through employers, our goal is to prove our clinical outcomes as a value-based organization. And you all know there's a few large value-based organizations across the United States. So for us, we want to put as many of our patients on CGMs or as many of our patients on longitudinal platforms that can continue to give us the largest amount of data. So that means our heart failure patients on programs, whether they're covered or not, virtual programs, that means our chronic kidney disease patients and our diabetes patients. So our answer is we are rewarded by proving better clinical outcomes. We are so convinced that this is the right technology to do that, and we are creating infrastructures. And to answer that first question about implantation clinics, we've done all of that background work in the background because we believe the more people we can get on an Eversense or a continuous CGM the better. So we're still early on. We're 2 weeks into this in regards to our first implantation. We're very, very, very bullish in regards to a concerted effort to standardize the approach to type 2 diabetes care across our organization.

Tim Goodnow

executive
#25

There's a question on durability that maybe, Dr. Fran, there, you'd answer for us. It says, what is the impact resistance of the sensor? Being so close to the surface of the skin, is there potential for damaging the sensor on impact?

Francine Kaufman

executive
#26

Oh, there's very little damage to the sensor. Once it's in body, the body is a buffer for trauma. And I don't even think we've same cases in which there's been damage to a sensor while it's in the body.

Tim Goodnow

executive
#27

Yes. It's just, as you said, it's in a pretty soft tissue environment. I am not aware of any instance where it's happened. And if you really got an opportunity to pick up the sensor and hold it, it is tiny, right? So if you had that level of trauma to that area, the least of your concern would be the sensor breakage. So next question is how many patients are experiencing CGM for the first time? And how many are transitioning from an existing CGM? Just very briefly, our experience to date is about 30% of the patients are brand new to CGM. So those are typically folks that are aware of it. As Dr. Ciaramita says, people do understand that they're out there. but they haven't chosen to go to it. They now do choose to go to it because of the long-term nature. The other 65% to 70% are people that are on a current CGM, one of the transcutaneous and actually switch over. So that's been our experience to date. Next question for Fran is the insertion procedure appears to be fairly straightforward as we heard from Dr. Ahn, but is the removal of sensors more difficult? Can you talk about the sensor removal process?

Francine Kaufman

executive
#28

Yes. I mean it's a skill set. We do find the health care providers. We give them all kinds of assets, so they can look at the procedure. It doesn't take very long to understand how to do it. And then we certify them. So these are people who have undergone procedures with observation by one of us, and then we've come and certified. The insertion procedure is incredibly easy and very short in duration and the removal, it's the same. I mean, to really be honest, if you can palpate the sensor, which is the vast, vast, vast majority of the time, you can go in, grab it and pull it out. If you can't palpate, which is rare, there are methodologies to be able to find it, and ultrasound can find it. Actually the transmitter itself can find it in that the center is still sending out a signal. Actually a magnet can help find the sensor as well. There was a paper by the group at the Barbara Davis Center that showed you can use one of those vein finders to find it in addition. So finding the sensor, once you find it, it hasn't moved around. It hasn't migrated and we don't find these sensors someplace else in the body ever. I mean, they are where they were put and then you just need to understand the depth and then do the appropriate incision to be able to pull it out. And we have a very, very consistent, under 1.2% of the time does a sensor need to -- the health care provider need to come back and go in a second time, which is usually minutes to get it out. And that 1.2% is mainly driven by somebody trying to remove a sensor that they're not confident that they can actually palpate and locate.

Tim Goodnow

executive
#29

Great. Next question is, what's the status of integration with the insulin pumps? How difficult is it to integrate and who drives the integration? Good questions. As I mentioned in my comments earlier, we are actively in the process of doing development with pump partners. We're not at the point where we're announcing those yet, but they are active development projects, and we expect over the next couple of quarters to announce that integration work. How difficult is it? The iCGM gives you the regulatory access to do it, but there still is communication, safe, protected wireless data information that's transferred back and forth and the execution of that, the documentation of it for your internal quality systems is the work that really goes on. And who drives that? It is a partnership between the 2 organizations, both on the sensing side and on the pump side. So depending on the pump side, depending on how they want to display it on their pump or on their phone, some of those technical considerations, but it is a partnership between the two that drive that. Next question is for Dr. Ciaramita, and it is how will the remote patient monitoring service enhance patient care at Mercy?

Jeff Ciaramita

attendee
#30

Well, I'm actually ecstatic by that question. So thank you for whoever asked it because I would say Mercy has been following the Eversense monitor for a long time. And I do think getting to 365 is a game-changer. Just my opinion, our system's opinion, but there's a lot of reasons why I think it will change the lay of the landscape because of that duration. I think that's where everybody's excitement is. I agree. The flip side is, what sealed the deal for us in our collaboration and partnership together with Senseonics and Mercy is remote patient monitoring, end of story. Right now, I'm sitting in my office, which is on the top floor of our Mercy Virtual Hospital. To date, still it exists. It's the largest virtual care hospital in the world that exists. We have nurses, advanced practitioners and physicians in this building, 24/7/365 that utilize remote patient monitoring technology to take care of all of our patients across the system every second of the day. Now you can imagine virtual care, I assume most of you will assume that's virtual care. Yes, we provide virtual care to hospitals. But what I'm talking about is that we have providers, we have physicians in this building who monitor patients' heart failure, pneumonia, respiratory status, weight, you name it, vitals, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. We have physicians in our building that call patients at 2 in the morning and intervene acutely to keep patients out of hospitals. When we look at quality metrics of diabetes care across the country, when we, when I say health systems, they have very great quality metrics that are objective for hospitalized patients. I can look on a dashboard and get my hyper or hypoglycemic events in every hospital, every single day. The problem is that, by far, more than 99.999% of diabetes care is not done within hospitals. And it's sad that our approach to diabetes has been once a day, once a week, 2 times a day, let us know how your blood shutters are with no mechanisms to actually have back-and-forth communication to the health care providers that are responsible for them. It's impossible to provide great longitudinal care. So not only do I think a 365 monitor will improve the long-term chronic outcomes of diabetics but what we're looking and most excited about is how can we use and integrate remote patient monitoring with a direct link into our electronic health record and acutely care for patients as they're having those episodes before they need higher acuity and always more expensive care. I think that's the game-changer here that we're most excited about. I don't think people will talk about it as much. But when you look at population management and improving outcomes, that's where it's at.

Tim Goodnow

executive
#31

Excellent. And perhaps maybe just a little extension on that, Dr. Ciaramita, is, frankly, question is based around why Eversense, right? Mercy's had obviously access to the other transcutaneous CGMs. But why did this program make more sense for the system with Eversense?

Jeff Ciaramita

attendee
#32

Well, I did say earlier, I and Mercy believe in CGMs, period, because of the data that it gives. Whatever sense though, to answer the question, in my opinion, is once that insertion is in, every other extraneous variable has been taken out of the equation. There's no cost implications. There's no "Oh, my sensor fell off. I'm on vacation. I'm in the ocean. I'm swimming at a party." There's none of that. Once that goes in, then we have control of that data 24/7/365. So for us, it's eliminating those other variables that would decrease our ability to have changed patient outcomes. I just don't know, to be honest, it would be hard for us to set up mechanisms to care for patients, 24/7/365 and then have a drop in data after 6 days or 10 days. It wouldn't work. Then we have an entire infrastructure there, but we wouldn't be able to take actions on patients that we can't see. So essentially, it's the guarantee of a minimum 1-year data, who knows in the future, maybe even longer of that, that gives us the ability to truly make broader changes in anything.

Tim Goodnow

executive
#33

Excellent. Next question is, can you remind us how patients access Eversense? So specifically, financially. And that's through the DME channel, medical benefit, can patients access it through the pharmacy benefit? And then how do we see this current access evolving over the next 12 to 24 months? That's a great question. So let's talk about where we are today because we do actually see it changing over time. So today, the product is currently available and many of the commercial plans today follow the traditional DME channel that they've established for the other CGMs, which is a little bit orthogonal for an implantable product, of course, but that's what they've become used to. We see, however, with our Medicare, so the government product provided coverage, that actually comes through, as you would imagine, as a traditional Medicare medical benefit. And that represents about -- today, about 1/3 of our product and 2/3 of it comes through the commercial pay. Now within commercial pay because there is so much of it moved to the pharmacy benefit, we see about 85% of that reimbursement coming through the DME channel and 15% of the 65% coming through pharmacy benefit. So it's smaller. And it is because of the dynamics that frankly go on with the existing CGMs. Now where do we see that changing over time? Quite frankly, the reason that happens in the DME channel today is because we are still on what's called the temporary codes for the CPT codes. Now that we have the 365 product, we will be applying for the permanent CAT 1 codes from today's T codes or CAT III codes. So we will do the first application for that, we expect, in the first quarter of 2025 and then it is about a 2-year process. So we do expect that over the next 2-year time period, we will see a significant transition on the commercial side over to medical benefit from the current DME, and we're frankly excited about that. So hopefully, that long-winded answer helps. Next question is, is the unit MRI-safe? Yes, it is. We do -- in our labeling, we have the MRI compatibility. We do recommend that you take the transmitter off, of course, during the MRI procedure, which as you heard is straightforward, it comes on and off very simply. But the sensor itself is very, very MRI compatible. Related question is, what do you do at the airport security? And frankly, I can tell you that I wear the sensor transmitter all the time. I have to take my belt off when I go through but the transmitter goes off without any indication at all. So that is very, very compliant. A couple more questions, and then I think we'll be able to wrap up. Again, for Dr. Ciaramita is how do you plan and how could you communicate these results and approach to other health systems so they could utilize it?

Jeff Ciaramita

attendee
#34

Yes. So we have quality dashboards that we track on an ambulatory setting. I just referred to those. For us, this collaboration would not be -- it would not be fulfilled that we can't publish our data together. And what I mean by that is it's part of our story. So I don't want everyone just to think this is altruistic, only for patients. There is skin in the game from Mercy as well that I would admit. And what the skin in the game with Mercy is we want this to be a part of our value story. So at the outset, for every single solitary patient that gets implanted, we will continue to track the patients, the numbers and more specifically the outcomes, any adverse outcome. We're going to build that into our value story. And then as we have conversations with our payers, our commercial payers, maybe companies, our Boeings or quick trips, Dunkin' Donuts, when we go to them and create direct-to-employer health plans, what we'll do is we'll take that -- those patient stories and that value story, that data there and prove to them that we can improve the quality of life of their patients or their employees. Not only can we do that, we can lower costs. So that's what we're looking for in general Now with patients, we want to be able to prove that as well. Come to our system and come to our care, come to the -- all of our more than 1,000 locations across our 4 states, and we will promise you, we will do everything we can to improve your overall quality of life and your clinical outcomes. So if we don't track the data -- ultimately, we want to get published with this. We want the technology and innovation aspect to it and want to be known for that. But if we don't actually collect that quality data and take action on it, I don't think it would be fulfilling for either side, either the Senseonics side or Mercy as well. So all that infrastructure is prepared, it's ready to go upfront and it will be tracked regular.

Tim Goodnow

executive
#35

Great. Exciting times. Appreciate it. And let's wrap up here. There is one final question that we've got time to cover, and it is in regards to the pipeline. And can we give an update on where we are specifically with the Gemini product and the Freedom product. And as we've disclosed, our next steps now that we have the 1-year product in place, it will be the platform on which we build the next-generation products. And those are actively in development for us. The next up for us is we will be submitting the 365 product outside the United States for the CE mark. So we'll be able to globally bring the product to people around the world. And then using that architecture, as I said, to build both the Gemini configuration and the Freedom configuration. Gemini has the incorporated battery. So today, the transmitter does 2 things. One, it powers through near field and two, it communicates with Bluetooth. So the first up is eliminating the powering and taking that from the outside the body in the transmitter and putting it inside the sensor. That creates the Gemini product. And why do we do that? Because that allows people that have an interest in long-term, continuous monitoring like you might have with a long-term type 2 device, where you just want an easy facile way to get your glucose profile is to be able to do that without a transmitter in the first step. So in that case, you'll continue to wand your phone over the implanted sensor with nothing on the skin and get the last 8 hours of glucose for you for document and store. That product is currently in clinical trials, human testing that will enable us to generate all of the long-term compatibility testing that we need to get regulatory approval early next year for us to do our pivotal trial. And we anticipate that, that time line would support us having the product available for users, consumers in 2026. And then right behind that is the next step. So we've incorporated the implanted battery. The last thing that we do is incorporate the Bluetooth. And once the Bluetooth is there and the powering, there's no more need for everyone to not have anything on the skin. So that you would use with your type 1, your AID patients. So the implanted sensor itself goes right to the phone or right to the pump in those AID situations and there's absolutely nothing on the skin for all of your patients. So that's the 2-step process we're taking. We think that, that's likely about 4 quarters behind. So based on that clinical regulatory time period, it would be 2027 that we would bring that product to market. So that's what the horizon looks like over the next 18 to 24 months. We're excited about it. We're in human testing. We've partnered with the world's largest supplier of [ implant-grade ] medical device batteries. So that's been a great advance for us. We're in the human testing. We'll have Gemini and then, as I said, the Freedom product right behind it. So with that, we've come up on time. We do very much appreciate everybody's time and participation. I'd like to thank Dr. Ciaramita. I would like to thank Dr. Ahn and Dr. Kaufman for participating and bringing us here and having a very fruitful conversation that I know people enjoyed. So thank you very much, folks.

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