Shift4 Payments, Inc. (FOUR) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Great, and welcome back, everyone. Thanks for staying with us today. My name is Dan Perlin. I head the payments processing and IT services practice here at RBC. And I'm delighted to have the -- really the entire team here from Shift4 today. By way of introduction, we have Jared Isaacman, who's the Chief Executive Officer and Founder. We have Taylor Lauber, Chief Strategy Officer; and we have Brad Herring, who's the Chief Financial Officer. So thank you, gentlemen, for being here. I know these are tedious processes in some instances, but we greatly appreciate your time. What I thought I would do, a little off script here, is that there is a Bloomberg headline floating around that you guys were interested in acquiring EVO Payments. And so I thought what I would do is just give you the opportunity to respond to that in this public forum.

Yes. I mean first, I have a lot of respect for Ray Sidhom and the company he's built over the last 30 years. I mean, he's like one of the godfathers of the payments industry right now, but we're not trying to buy EVO payments. I think there'll be a release coming out on that one. So yes, I mean our entire inorganic strategy right now is built around accelerating growth within the new verticals. The 7 new verticals that we talked about in our Investor Day about 2 weeks ago, and EVO doesn't really help us in any of those sets. So they're an awesome organization but people will underappreciate some of the rails that they may have in Europe but that's not one of our targets.

Great. Well, we appreciate that. I know that's been a source of questions throughout the day. So we look forward to read the release, but also thanks for clearing for decks for us. If we look at the competitive landscape, you know as we sit here and talk about EVO and others, what are you seeing in the markets today? You addressed some of this stuff, I think, quite frankly or pretty directly at the analyst day but it would be good, I think, to remind investors how do you think about differentiating yourselves in particular from the rest of the crowd on a competitive perspective?

Yes. I mean it's definitely worth spending some time on because there's generally a lot of confusion. I mean what makes Shift4 special, it's our payment platform. We integrate into a number of different software applications in order to deliver a commerce experience. With 425 software integrations on our platform, that's been decades of Virgin history. It's really impossible to replicate our integration library. And where we live is on the most complex end of the commerce spectrum. So our customers require multiple different types of software in order to deliver an experience for their patrons. So let me say that differently, if you can download an application on an iPad and run your business, that is not the complex end of the spectrum, that's on the most simplistic end of the spectrum, that's square land. That's -- you don't want to be there. You want to be where we are, which is -- that's actually the same. We don't want to be there. Square is a great company. Where we -- our customers would be like virtually every ski resort in North America and why? Because there's a hotel, there's a salon, there's a spa, there's a restaurant. There's a bar. There's a retail shop that rents skis, all of which run on different software, all of which have to be integrated to deliver a seamless commerce experience with point-to-point encryption for security, with tokenization for analytics. And then we supplement it with a lot of other technology like whether it's online ordering or pay at table or QR code-based ordering and such. So that's where you'll typically find us. Now historically, that's been in restaurants, hotels, specialty retailers like UPS Store is one of our customers. But we've since expanded from our core vertical, which has been growing at 50% end-to-end volume growth for years on end. I mean it even grew double digits in volume during the pandemic. So it's pretty good to be able to grow payment volume during the pandemic when you have a lot of restaurants and hotels that are all getting well. So that gives you a sense of how much of a share taker we are. And because of the strength within our core verticals, we've moved new verticals that also share the complexity that we enjoy. So gaming, e-commerce, sports and entertainment and theme parks. I think we're the category leader in that space. A lot of -- tons of stadiums and theme park. Pretty much every theme park of our venue is using probably some former ship for technology right now. And then as of most recently at our Investor Day, we announced entrance into nonprofits and health care off a win of St. Jude Children's Research Hospital. We've expanded our coverage in hospitality with travel now with Allegiant Airlines, and then probably the sexiest signature win is a 5-year partnership with SpaceX Starlink to power their -- their Starlink broadband communication subscription billing, which could be 100 billion in volume over the years ahead.

Yes. Now these are fantastic. One of the things I was -- I wanted to talk to you guys about is, when we think about the sustainability and the quite possible ability to accelerate your growth as we think about the next several years, it very much comes down to a couple of things. And the first of which is, it's clearly TAM expansion, and that is a direct correlation to these vertical opportunities that you talked about. I think people have had a good sense of a little bit about the sports and entertainment, gaming and e-commerce. I might want to come back to those later. But I was hoping that we might be able to revisit some of those announcements that you just mentioned, St. Jude's, Allegiant and then SpaceX, Starlink, hopefully saving that one for the last because, quite frankly, that one I think is most interesting. It's also maybe the most complex in terms of the way to explain it to people. So if you could elaborate on that again, Jared, that would be fantastic.

Yes. So why are we expanding into these kind of new verticals? Again, just going back to our core business, it's just impossible to encroach upon that space. You just can't get 425 software integration. So we were growing the core business 50% year-over-year before the pandemic, on a normalized basis through the pandemic. I mean we've had 22 years of consecutive year-over-year revenue growth. So the core is good and solid. So in terms of looking at our midterm outlook of -- we're going to have $150 billion of end-to-end volume 3 years from now. We already touched like $0.25 trillion in volume right now today. So it's not a hard week when you think about the opportunity within our gateway to end-to-end and just the natural growth we have in our core verticals. So that comfort there is really what embolden you to go out and expand into these other verticals, take the same flavor of integrated payments that makes you successful in your core and bring it to these new markets. The 3 most exciting that you're asking about are the ones we announced at our Investor Day, nonprofits and health care with St. Jude Children's Research Hospital. When I talk about a multi-software environment, the complex end of commerce is being an area that we thrive, nonprofits is filled with software right now, tons of it. Like if hotels have 10 different types of software, nonprofits have 50. And really, it's because these organizations are very passionate about raising funds for their causes, and they're looking to reach such a wide array of audiences that they'll go anywhere for it. So like if you believe there's an opportunity to get people to make donations while they're playing Fortnite, that's a piece of software. If you want to be able to get donations while you're streaming on YouTube, that's a piece of software. There's just so much software, and it's not all integrated to a single experience. What happens is, it's like basically 50 different donor CRM platforms. So we started learning about this over a year ago, and we got involved with St. Jude. I started talking about it in our earnings reports the last couple of quarters. I'm like this is complicated, and it's a huge TAM. I mean there's just -- there's tons of volume and donations. I don't think people are going to be less charitable in the years ahead. I think people are going to keep being charitable. So you're going to have donations going into it. And like margins are good, generally because the actual nonprofit itself isn't one absorbing them, it's the consumers. You make a $100 donation. It's asking me to put a 5% ticket to cover the processing cost. Well, 500 basis points, a lot better than the 300 that we would typically average on growth across our various verticals. So you're getting huge spreads on these things, and you can make life easier for the nonprofit and they can be more effective. Health care is the same thing. We're actually in a lot of hospitals right now. We typically have like a cafeteria or a retail shop, but health care software, it's not 1 or 2, it's like 6 different applications. So that's naturally very appealing to us. Allegiant is vertically integrating their kind of vacation package deal. So you're not just buying an airline ticket, you're buying an airline ticket to a hotel and a restaurant that may all very well be owned by Allegiant. Our integration library within hotels and restaurants is second to none. So we were a very natural partner for them for that portion of their business and their airlines because now you can have common tokens, you get business intelligence across all these different profit centers, if you will. And yes, I mean, do you want to save the end, I'm happy to...

No. I mean, I guess the last one that you went through not at the end of the presentation. So let's go right into Starlink. I mean it's -- I think one of the things that I would ask you to help reference is, you're uniquely positioned to maybe level set what this thing is, right? When we've talked to investors post your Analyst Day, there's just a lot of questions unless you're really familiar with the asset or you did a couple of quick browsers. It's not really clear how immense this opportunity is. You say $100 billion, that's huge. But how does it evolve into that?

Oh, yes, like this isn't -- I think everyone -- I think most people agree. Elon is a pretty driven person who delivers results in very unexpected ways. And getting to Mars, which is his organization's vision, is very expensive. And the way you're paying for it is, you're going to use the same technology you pioneered to get people to Mars, to communicate to Mars through laser-based communication, and that's done through Starlink's satellites. So if you're doing all that, why don't you also disrupt global broadband at the same time. So there are 1,700 satellites up in orbit right now. Like this isn't a PowerPoint investor deck about, hey, someday, we're going to disrupt it. He's just doing it already. You can already sign up for Starlink right now. Starlink will put Gogo out of business. Every airline will have a Starlink antenna because it's like 1,000x faster because instead of communicating ground based or with geostationary satellites at 20,000 kilometers, you're communicating with these high-speed laser-meshed satellites that are in lower earth orbit, essentially 500 kilometers. And you can put them up almost nearly for free because you can pack these Starlink satellites around other people's payload that's going to orbit. Your TAM is pretty much every country in the world, except maybe China and Russia. I think it was just in the news yesterday that Elon was meeting with the Communication Minister from Brazil. So every boat will have it. Every airline will have it. I mean, probably, every Tesla at some point will have it. And then you're going to have this whole wave of cord-cutting 2.0, where everybody who's got slow DSL and cable lines, are going to chop that and go to broadband. And these antennas, they're not like these giant things that are in your backyard, they're small and they're continuing to shrink down and they'll continue to shrink down in size. So I think a Morgan Stanley analyst said, if you Elon Musk is the world's first trillionaire, it will be because of Starlink and not because of Tesla. And there's various analyst reports out there, and it's a $100 billion a year subscription opportunity. Point is people are paying for this with credit cards or some other form of payment, and Shift4 has that 5-year partnership agreement. There's already a lot of people using it now and it's about $1 billion a year in payment volume. And there's a commitment to move the domestic volume over in the next 120 days, but that's just one really cool exciting part of the Analyst Day. Like we obviously talked a lot about other verticals we're in and how strong our core business is going as well.

Just one of the follow-up questions on that, that we've been getting a lot of is just that you will be the processor for the initial payment. Let's say, it's $400 or something to buy the dish or whatever we want to call that at this point it's satellite, dish the reader. And then the subscription piece of that you're also participating in, right? So this is something that's kind of a gift that keeps on giving. It's not one of these upfront opportunities, right?

I mean, subscription is $100 a month, it's recurring billion. It's like your cable modem, but 100x better.

Yes. Yes. Okay. Good. Well, we'll leave that piece for now, and I'm excited to see how that expands. The other piece of this ability to sustain and then accelerate growth has a lot to do with your incremental revenues now going into SaaS. And I think there's 2 things here that we want to talk about: one is, obviously the new products that you're launching, in particular, SkyTab POS. So I want to talk to you a little bit about that. But then secondarily, you also have some SaaS revenue in the business today, and I think that was one of the reasons why you guys talked about a little bit better guidance. And I think, quite frankly, that caught some people off guard. We don't typically think of you as a SaaS company and that's going to change, obviously. But so where is all the SaaS that's embedded in the company today and then let's dovetail that into SkyTab POS.

I mean we're -- for 22 years, we're a payments company. So we kind of always -- there's no place like home. So when we got into restaurants, we started acquiring restaurant software companies. It was just -- we just pivoted their revenue models because they weren't doing SaaS either. They were selling onetime software licenses and hardware. So we're like, let's just go in and turn this upside down and just deliver payments volume. Obviously, it's working really well. And I'd argue like, I mean the quality of payments-related revenue is awesome. I mean if you can get a spread off of volume in an inflationary environment, like that's better than SaaS. That said, we assume the same would be applicable when we moved into sports and entertainment with the VenueNext acquisition. We'll just go in and we'll just turn around the SaaS model and just drive everything through payments. It just didn't work that way. People were happy paying the payments volume and giving us. They were happy paying the Saas fees and doing the payments volume. And also we were finding that customers were quicker to adopt to software solutions than payments because, I mean, if you're a hypothetically Disney World running off of VenueNext software, it's a lot easier for you to roll out that mobile application than it is to retool your treasury department. So it's just SaaS -- we modeled when we did the acquisition that SaaS revenues would go to 0 and it did the exact opposite. SaaS revenues were growing very fast and you're getting payments volume. Even though I would say you're really in the early innings of it. So basically what we thought we knew from restaurants didn't carry over perfectly to some of these new verticals. I think nonprofits are going to be the same, I think there's going to be SaaS based revenue on the actual software solutions that the nonprofit is paying and then you monetize the payments, that's essentially of the consumer who, basically, you can embed that cost into their donation or something benefit. And then lastly when you look at restaurants we say we've been building out our new restaurant point of sale platform called SkyTab POS for 3 years now. It's a modern cloud-based architecture, it's in 2,000 locations, it's in united center, church's chicken and the new crypo.com stadium, I think, it's now the old Staple's stadium, is going to be corporating it. So they're paying Saas fees and you're getting payments fine. And then we're like, oh we've never monetized our market place, that's like your Appstore, if you will, for Grubhub, DoorDash, Uber Eats and such. We've never monetized that, we just make it available for free so we're going to charge a toll on that. And then we've never had a payroll or capital offering solution, mostly because we're up marketing the talent Hakkasan on our customers bar so they're probably not going to take the capital offering. But that said, we do expect these in a more [ SnB ] end of the customer spectrum. So the idea is, yes we're going to grow Saas revenue more than we have historically and it is why we raised guidance in 2021, we're still very much a payments company. We're going to grow our base as well. And I don't think when you look at that midterm outlook, you have to make any like real radical assumptions that as this develops, SaaS is going to do this. We're not really telling you that there's going to be this dramatic shift other than there's just a much bigger SaaS opportunity that we're doing better than with which we previously did.

Yes. So you brought on the midterm outlook. I just -- since we're on the topic, when we think about that 50% growth for end-to-end payments and 30% of net revenue growth, the question that just constantly comes up is, what's embedded in that, if any, when we think about the M&A opportunity to drive that? So maybe if you could just kind of frame that piece of the puzzle for us, that would be great.

Yes. I mean, I just -- I word it in the same way is like, what do you have to believe in terms of the midterm outlook? Is this like only achievable if you go out and do bunch of substantial M&A. And what we'd say is, just look at our core business that's been growing near 50% anyway, and you have to -- and you can say, well, I can discount that and then not have that much traction within these new verticals? And I still hit my target. Now that said, there's Starlink volume in Europe, Latin America and South America right now that is going to Adyen and not us. If we can buy a shell of a factory, a PSP in Latin America or South America that has the rails we need already, we're going to absolutely go do that just to pull forward some of that Starlink volume. But those are -- that's not how we're getting there, that's how we have an opportunity to outperform or at least bring in some of those 2023 or 2024 targets into 2022 and 2023. So these are just opportunities to outperform. We have more rationale now to pursue some of these inorganic opportunities that maybe previously we would have shied away from just because they're anchored on amazing strategic rationale with wins like Starlink, St. Jude and Allegiant.

Right. So when we think about your M&A appetite, obviously, it's there. And when we think about strategically where you want to point those capital dollars, they're on trying to harness, right, those types of opportunities for Starlink, which is to say, something likely in the international markets, maybe in Europe in particular, but could be other areas like Latin America and very much card-not-present type platform gateway or something to that effect. In this case, you're calling out PSP which makes a lot of sense. So is that fair when we think about the M&A playbook for you?

I do think about nonprofits, too. And then we still have $170 billion, again, back to what you need to believe. We have $170 billion in gateway volume. We can get there. It's all addressable. It's all our technology driving every transaction today. You just need to turn a lever and you wind up getting an end-to-end. So I mean, while our focus is -- number one is, capture the Starlink demand, while you got it, tons of momentum there, get that, go after nonprofits and health care, leveraging your St. Jude win. Those are the top 2 priorities. But if something interesting pops up that allows us to accelerate within our core verticals, we're not going to ignore that either.

When you talk about nonprofit and you mentioned -- and maybe this was just kind of off the cup, but if you've got 50 or 60 different software opportunities there, that does speak to the point of it maybe being overly fragmented. In which case, your partnership strategy is good, but now you've got to have another 60 partners and maybe that's fine and relevant. But the question is, does it make sense for you to help consolidate that space a little bit? And would that play into an M&A component?

It certainly could. I mean it's -- there is a lot of opportunity in nonprofits in health care. It's actually -- it was very surprising to us how fragmented it was at the time we started exploring it.

The point worth mentioning is that when you see a market with that kind of fragmentation, that's why you need a bellwether anchor merchant to help drive that consolidation because we have as many software suites out there, they can easily try to pick their path on payments, that's just like the trend of the last decade, right? And how do you combat that with a bellwether merchant that says, no, this is the platform I'm consolidating things. So if you want to do business with me, you've got to call Shift4 and integrate your software. So it can become a chicken and egg thing at times. We definitely wouldn't want to enter this vertical without a merchant like St. Jude in our corner.

Right. But just to be clear, you're interested in potentially acquiring software in that nonprofit vertical, and you guys would be able to ring-fence the rest of that fragmentation. Is that fair?

I think it's early to say exactly how we would execute against the M&A strategy. There's lots of software out there for sure.

I'm not pushing. I'm just -- just want to make sure you guys are...

[indiscernible]

Yes. No, it sounds like a pretty awesome vertical. Look, you talked about $170 billion of trapped volume. You just turned the knob and all of a sudden, you get this end-to-end. But there is a care and I suspect you have to offer to them at some level. And I'm just wondering if you could remind us what some of those are to kind of incentivize those merchants to kind of come over to you guys, even though they're already running on your gateway.

Yes. I mean that's we've -- totally correct. We take an entirely carrier-first approach and 50% of our end-to-end production comes from gateway migrations. 50% comes from just winning in the market. And how do you do it? You send blast e-mails like, do you want a QR code-based order and QR-based payments? You want handheld ordering, you handheld payments. Our handheld SkyTab mobile device isn't just for restaurants, it's going to be used in hotels that we have them in golf courses. I think we have them in salon. So there's a lot of pain points we're capable of solving for our customers as an inducement for them to move over to our end-to-end platform. Now like with time, there is nothing that would say like we couldn't charge a toll to the legacy merchant acquired that's getting output at that volume since we do believe we're entitled to the lion's share of the payment economics or told in the merchant, hey, I get it, your brother works at Global Payments. They're not doing anything to help you right now. It's us that's doing it. So you got to pay some sort of a toll to access that pipe. So -- and maybe that in itself wins at becoming a further inducement to move over to our end-to-end platform. So it's just -- I don't know if there's any really other payment company out there that just has such visibility in such a massive amount of commerce that really is highly dependent on our technology. It's $170 billion that's right there that it's a 4x uplift when they move to our end-to-end platform. So you can bet it will always have a good portion of our attention on how to migrate it over to our full end-to-end solution.

At the time of the IPO, you talked about not going after new gateway volumes necessarily, right? You wanted to really have the full stack, but it sounds like this is an evolving target a little bit. And so are you still willing to offer up gateway? Or are you still just fully focused on end-to-end when you go out to new clients?

There's no one who really signs up for gateway only. I mean if we bore 25,000, 30,000 core end-to-end merchants a year, you're talking less than 1,000 would be gateway only, and they're probably part of Hyatt or Marriott. They probably caught tied to some very legacy agreement. It's just nobody would sign up for that pain of dealing with multiple vendors anymore. There could be some exceptions where for major theme park that's already using our software, wanted our capabilities from our gateway and didn't have to stay with like, I don't know, JPM or something for treasury. We defined a way to make that or maybe the other half of the Las Vegas Strip, for example, could be a scenario. But it's -- we're not trying to grow that business. The reason it's still a big number is there's just nowhere else for it to go.

Yes, I think just to be clear, it's not a trend in the industry either. The only advocates for gateway-only model are the legacy acquirers that don't have the software integrations to support the merchants they have there.

Yes. Yes. We talked about the Vegas Strip. So let's pivot a little bit to gaming, and I also want to dovetail that with VenueNext because I think there's a clear interlink between those opportunities. So I guess what I heard from you a little bit on the Analyst Day today was, there is a -- you're at a point now where everyone is racing, in particular in the United States, to kind of consolidate the regulatory licenses that are necessary, some of the partnerships with operators and that gaming will, in fact, at some point, be a big area, a big another addressable market for you. But it's still super early and also very fragmented to say the least. So how are you attacking it? Maybe how are you framing it when you think about the timeline? And then if you could also just talk about what you think that opportunity means for you because you have VenueNext?

Well, I think gaming to us is maybe mid- to high billions, 5-ish. I say that because I don't actually think that would be a huge number. Having -- taking substantial share, let's just say, hypothetically in gaming over the years ahead, I wouldn't say it's really baked into much of our midterm outlook. And that's because it's early days, and there's so much like -- I mean, are you lumping cashless casino where you're in the casino, but it's done on your phone versus really sitting on your couch and betting on FanDuel or something like that. What I'd say is, I think the market was really 3, and now I think it's probably closer to 2. And everybody kind of brings something different to the table, somebody would say -- somebody based in Canada would say, because we own SafeCharge and have a lot of European relationships, we should do great in the U.S. market for gaming. Maybe just a level set, nobody had infrastructure here in the U.S. Processing payments for gaming transactions in the U.S., that's called FBI up until like the last year. So there was no one who had an incumbent advantage. If anybody here ever did the Party Poker or Poker Stars, you came in and logged in one day and had the big FBI seal on the screen, right? So it wasn't something that was permissible until recently. So nobody had any infrastructure for it. So you have New Wave Racing with SafeCharge and saying, we did this really well in Europe, so we should do it well here and, I think, it's a good argument. You had Paysafe saying, we have all these APMs enabling gaming in Europe, so therefore, we have relevancy in the U.S. market. I never like that argument because APMs never took off in U.S. They've never been a thing in U.S. PayPal is like you're only U.S. APM, if you will. Now I think they're getting regulated at APMs. And then Shift4's argument would have been like half of the casinos in the country -- Shift4 is a -- it provides a solution too. So if we have your restaurants, your hotel and a casino, and isn't that a logical reason why we should have the mobile gaming because if somebody wins a bunch of money on their couch on FanDuel, you want to get them into the casino to give it back or buy something in a restaurant or something to that effect. And then on top of that, we do believe we're the category leader in stadiums and theme parks, and there's no question people are going to be wagering it during football games, baseball games or baseball games. And then when you win money, are you going to use that to go buy a beer -- a burger and a beer during half time or something of that effect. So we think we have a pretty good right to win at gaming, and I think New Wave does, too. And the reality is, it was such an abused industry for so long, getting in and out of it, that I think we have bet MGM, New Wave bet MGM. I think we have Sightline. Maybe nobody else does, but bottom line is, we're all going to probably get more than our fair share in that. And then where I'd say, again, we're probably a category leader. It's just sports entertainment and theme parks, we've got the best software in that lane right now. Gaming or not, we should continue to announce stadium wins at a pretty good pace.

Yes. I wanted to touch on your software partnerships again. You've historically talked about 350. You have 75 new ones. What do you say to the argument that we hear and you even brought up a little bit recently, and that the 350 you've got kind of a little bit legacy. The 75 new it sounds like they're more cutting edge and innovative. How do you roll those legacy ones into kind of where we sit today?

Yes. Like -- here's like my running theory right now is like, I feel like the payment sector got smashed. And a lot of people are exiting positions and then they're building like their case and their rationale and why it was a good decision. And the hard part is, when I try and reconcile it, it doesn't add up. So it's like legacy acquirers are going to lose. Fast-growing tech platforms are going to gain. It's like, okay, so at $170 billion in volume we have, undisputed is connected into legacy providers. So when they lose, where does it go? It's in the same integrations that we have. It means Shift4 is a beneficiary. That's why you have that volume growth. If you're saying that COVID pulled forward a digital revolution and that all these tech companies are benefiting so much, that's why I deserve out these crazy revenue multiples because everybody is just gravitating towards these software and this is like a once-in-a-generation transition or something. Why did the $170 billion in volume leave, if all of our integration suck? Isn't that what they were supposed to be doing in the last 2 years to survive was move into the cloud? Or here's another possibility. We actually have a ton of cloud integrations and it's exactly what we all thought they were doing. So it's like we -- Agilisys is one of our integration partners. They're a $1 billion company. We have their old integrations. We have their cloud integrations. Oracle is a big partner of ours. We have their old integrations. We have their cloud integrations. Microsoft is an integration partner of ours. We have their old integrations. We have their new integrations. So yes, I mean, I've been reading all these over the last month, and I'm wondering where it's coming from, but we try to address that with our industry and saying, like, look, we're growing our integrations. It's hard to do that. Hey, we're growing volume. That's really hard to do. There's a lot of payments companies that don't report volume anymore as a KPI. That's pretty shocking. If you're a payments company, you don't want to tell people how much volume you do. So clearly, we obviously have -- unless you think all the customers who have been moving to our platform are insane and actually like foregoing technologies, is a means to survive and thrive in this economy right now than we probably have a good technology platform that people are migrating towards.

Yes. No, that's great. Unfortunately, time is up, which is a bad thing for me because I can handle this discussion all day long. So let me say a couple of things. One is, thank you very much for clearing up the stuff on EVO. Two, thanks for your candor, right? This is a space where the competitive narrative is brutal right now, and we've seen some enormous swings this year. And so I think, just having a candid conversation about what's taking place and how things work is refreshing. So as always, I appreciate that. And then to everyone else, thank you so much for your time. I know you're busy, but hopefully, we'll be able to see you guys in person in the near future. So thanks again for your time today. I really appreciate it, and good luck.

Thank you.

Take care.