Sif Holding N.V. (SIFG) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Good morning, ladies and gentlemen, and welcome to the biannual Sif webcast. This morning, we published interim 2020 results, and we are here to elaborate on this release and to answer any questions you may raise. In line with social distancing recommendations to fight COVID-19, we again decided to do a virtual presentation of results, this time, however, with the faces of our CFO, Leon Verweij, and myself on your screen in an attempt to bring a bit more connectivity to the party. Let's see how it works out. The slides we use for this presentation can also be found on our website, and a transcript of today's webcast will be posted on our website shortly after this presentation. Talking about COVID-19, we are pleased to inform you that none of our employees personally suffered from COVID-19 and that our sickness leave has more or less normalized after the spike in the period March, April, May. Meanwhile, all our office staff is back at work in our offices in Roermond and Maasvlakte, with stringent precautionary measures in place like workplace screens, walkway corridors and obligatory face masks for people not able to keep 1.5 meter distance. Our policy to proactively send people home when showing signs of illness like fever or coughing has remained unchanged. In principle, meetings are online via Teams, et cetera, and only in specific and limited occasions, we deviate from this policy. So let's please go now to Slide #2. Let's move on a bit with an update on how our business has actually developed. First of all, our new activity, marshalling and logistic services is growing nicely despite some delays in the ordering pipeline due to COVID-19 and oil and gas downturn effects. Besides a steady inflow of relative short-term and quick turnaround small orders, we managed to book a third sizable order to support the final assembly of floating offshore wind units at our key site at Maasvlakte. This, in addition to the successfully completed order for DEME on marshalling the Borssele 1+2 component and the order for marshalling and logistic services for Siemens on the Hollandse Kust Zuid turbines starting from December 2021. Let's move on to Slide #3. In our core activity, we reached a milestone by delivering the 2,000th monopile since they started this activity some 20 years ago. Hand in hand with the increase of wind turbine sizes from 1.5 up to 12 to 40 megawatts, the monopile has shown similar growth. In addition, the number of foundations per project has grown over the past 2 decades from around 10 units on average at the start to some 80 to 100 units today. This puts pressure on production capacity and competencies, but also on the installation process offshore. In cooperation with industry partners, Sif is in a permanent search of innovations to help facilitate solving the associated challenges. The Skybox, for example, is an innovative transition piece less design that we launched at the London exhibition is a good concrete example of this approach. The design is well received as the standardization and simplification compared to the existing technical solutions, looks promising in order to reduce the levelized cost of energy in foundation designs. On the Sky box solution, Sif designers worked very closely together with DOT, Delft Offshore Turbine, in order to incorporate their innovative slip-joint solution in the Sky box design. The slip-joint connection was successfully applied in the Borssele 5 project, which was produced by us in the first half of 2020. This example illustrates that we aim for cooperation between professional players in the industry in order to materialize innovations faster to make sure the wheel is not invented twice and as such, aim to help reduce the cost of renewable energy. Let's move on to Page 4. If we look now at the overall offshore wind market, the ambitions have been raised again by different countries, both in Europe as well as in other parts of the world, mainly the U.S. and the Far East. Total installed capacity in Europe, i.e. meaning the North Sea, stands at some 23 gigawatts according to Rystad Energy in their 7th of May 2020 report. Global installed base is approximately 29 gigawatt according to the Global Wind Energy Council in their 2020 Global Offshore Wind Report. In our press release of this morning, you can learn a little bit more about the buildup of this 22 gigawatts over the last 20 years. In short, this implies a 1 gigawatt increase per year in Europe. Looking at today's ambitions, in the Netherlands alone, this is already -- there's already 1 gigawatt annually planned for, which will -- which means an increase for the next 10 years of 1 gigawatt. It is expected that by 2030, installed capacity will be close to 100 gigawatts in Europe and 234 gigawatts globally. Already for some years, the levelized cost of electricity generated by the offshore wind can compete with any less sustainable source of energy, and a growing number of countries in Europe now build unsubsidized offshore wind farms. And off we go to Page #5. All this potential is clearly reflected in the tender pipeline we are working on, which gives us a very confident feel for the future order book. Operational [ stats ] for today, however, are not as stable due to the gap in the order book because of the missing Vineyard Wind project of 104 kilotons, the inefficiency effects due to COVID-19 and the start-up of 2 new projects in parallel. In the first half of 2020, we produced 76 kilotons against 94 kilotons in the first half of 2019. In the first 3 months, we mainly manufactured for Borssele 1-5 and Triton Knoll. During the second quarter, we started manufacturing for Akita Noshiro in Japan and for Saint Nazaire in France. The start-up of new project has its own dynamic, also in terms of project -- of profit and loss and cash flow. Leon later on will explain more on this. An unprecedented dynamic came through the effect of the outbreak of COVID-19, effects that were not foreseen to this extent in many risk analysis. It led to higher sickness leaves and absence levels that had an impact on productivity. Counterside, however, of the strict measures we took -- we put in place was that from the very first days of the start of the pandemic, we managed to keep COVID-19 out of our organization. Let's move on to 6. As far as new work is concerned, we added 3 projects post closing the year 2019 and after the shelving of Vineyard Wind. The Akita Noshiro project for Japan, we already discussed. It was added in the first half of 2020, and production started in the first half of 2020 as well, a very short turnaround time with a relative newcomer in the market, which had its impact on the efficiency of the project handling progress as such. Overall, we managed to establish a good cooperation with our new Japanese client, Kajima. This project would partly fill the gap that the cancellation of the Vineyard Wind project left behind. The other 2 order book additions are on an exclusive position basis: one concerns an already announced 130 kilotons offshore wind project; and the other combines with 70 monopiles or the equivalent of 70 kilotons for a North Sea offshore wind project that we have announced today. Combined, they add approximately 200 kilotons to our order book for the North Sea projects for the period of '21 up to '23. My colleague Leon will explain how this all translates into the numbers. So let's go to Page #7. And I hand over to Leon.

Okay. Thank you, Fred, and good morning to you all as well. See the camera turning to me so -- now how does this all translate into numbers? Fred already mentioned the 76 kilotons production output. With 41 kilotons in Q2, this was better than the first quarter with only 35 kilotons. Contribution for the first half year 2020 was EUR 45.7 million, which was almost equal to the first half year's 2019 contribution. It translates to EUR 602 per ton for the first half of 2020. This is in line with our guidance of low 600s for contribution per ton. The first half year production was under pressure of COVID measures and consequently also the result due to lower levels of completion. The good news is that we didn't have, at Sif, to make use of any government COVID support programs. Our clients, however, shelved some smaller projects, and projects and orders were delayed. Sif applied an aggressive quarantine policy, which led to higher sickness leave and absence rates. Together with replacement of Vineyard by the new project, Akita Noshiro, and the pulling forward of production of Saint Nazaire, this caused production delays and inefficiencies. Working capital overall was negative as -- at -- with EUR 64.5 million. And like I always say, this is a snapshot situation and may vary over time depending, amongst others, on states of projects, invoicing and payment behavior of our clients. Net cash, excluding land lease effects subject to IFRS 16, were at EUR 38.3 million. Under IFRS 16, the lease of land is treated differently than before. And the impact we discussed already in earlier presentations can also be found in our annual report, which also includes a bridge from IFRS to this year. The order book for 2021 and beyond is 300 kilotons, of which 200 in exclusive negotiations. These are the 2 order book additions Fred already referred to in his part of the presentation. Please turn to the next slide. As explained before, we look at contribution as a performance indicator to reflect the pricing of projects in the market, corrected for cost of steels, other materials and subcontracting. Steel is often half the total revenues and a pass-through cost for Sif. On a quarterly basis, contribution per ton may be fairly volatile. We, therefore, rather present this performance indicator on a half year basis. It gives a better view of the trends we see in the market. And as indicated earlier, we realized a contribution margin of low 600s per ton in the first half of 2020. Please turn to the next slide. We discuss working capital and net debt or net cash at this point of time already. Here, you see the development over time, indicating that this is a snapshot situation rather than an indication of structural working capital requirement. It also indicates that Sif has conservative financing and with a good year, combined with maintenance CapEx only, can become a net debt-free company. Last year, we had investments additional to our maintenance CapEx in coating facilities and production adjustments following new PISA regulations. Our estimates were that PISA adjustments will require a max of EUR 34 million in CapEx. In total, EUR 2.5 million was committed in the first half of 2019 and with EUR 6 million for coating -- of which EUR 6 million was for the new coating facilities. Further investments under this heading are, at this moment, frozen and will be invested as soon as the market demands this. For the remainder of 2020, we have not planned any CapEx in addition to our maintenance CapEx of approximately EUR 8 million on an annual basis, except maybe for CapEx required for the execution of Hollandse Kust Zuid. And with that, now I hand back to Fred.

Thanks, Leon, and please turn to the next slide. Let's move on with Slide #10. The heading of our closing remarks basically hasn't changed much over time. The market for offshore wind is growing. We used an analysis of different industry consultants to substantiate this heading. This time, we show you a recent, meaning June 2020, graph published by GWEC. They made projections up to 2030. It connects to the table of Rystad Energy of May 2020 that we used in our press release. Prospects for offshore wind are good and getting better over time. We are in a healthy market, and we have a leading situation and a leading product. We are market leaders and well situated in Rotterdam for especially the North Sea-based offshore wind developments, which is still the strongest market segment. Competition is developing though, and we try to stay updated on both the existing and new developing players. We take signs of possible new competition very seriously and follow developments closely. For example, the recent lead by the South Korean producer of tubular steel products, SeAH, sorry, new one, announced investment in a new plant in the U.K. Supported by the U.K. government, the company plans to build a 100-monopile production facility at a not-yet-decided location. It will require at least 2 to 3 years to get up to speed and get up and running. Like with all others, we will monitor that closely and finally update you on changes we notice in the landscape. Let's move on to the next page, 11. Our order outlook for 2020 remains unchanged. We expect to arrive at 170 kiloton total production, with an EBITDA result at the level of 2019, basically based on the well-progressing Hollandse Kust Zuid production. Our order book for '21 and beyond stands at 300 kilotons. Thereof, 200 kilotons is reported as exclusive negotiations. Tendering [ ship ] activity in the market as a whole is high, with various large projects entering final stages, Hollandse Kust Noord, Doggersbank A-B-C and Sofia to mention a few. Also outside the North Sea, activity is high, and specifically in the U.S., the tendering is proceeding despite unclarity on the outcome of the environmental permitting process by the federal government. Overall, the present tender pipeline, combined with a growing market demand and bearing in mind the possible successful entry of new competition in the market, make us still confident, very confident that we have to continue our efforts to increase our production capabilities in our existing facilities, this, to further increase both our production output and our planning flexibility. For now, this is what we have to add to the release and slides, and I cordially invite you now for questions. [Operator Instructions] This was the final slide of this presentation. So thank you very much for your attention, and please ask questions from now on.

The first question I have is, what is the approximate kiloton quantity of tenders you see coming up in the next 12 months? Question by [ Ron Egtek ].

Well, thanks for that question. There's various ways to answer this one because if you look at the total tender pipeline, it's -- it goes up to something, maybe, not even calculated completely, but up to 800 kilotons or so. But that is also related to a very long period, and it also takes into account various stages of the tender itself. Some are in the budgetary phase, others are in the final stages of completion.

Okay. A question from Turner Holm. What do you think of the recent announcement that the South Korean company is planning a monopile factory in the U.K.? How and when do you think this could affect the competitive landscape?

Yes. I've mentioned already a little bit on it. It's very fresh news indeed, last week. We are putting an analysis together in our first overviews. That also based on the question we just answered on the sort of tender line. We think that this capacity will not affect too much our position since there's such a high demand and an increase in demand. The other thing, as I've mentioned, that we believe it takes at least 3 years, I would say, before they are -- into the -- can enter the market realistically. They haven't had -- at least to our knowledge, they don't have any experience on the production of monopiles. But they are a respected party when it comes to tubular steel products.

Thanks. A question by Nikolai Ødegaard, also from Clarkson (sic) [ Clarksons ]. How do you see pricing contribution margin developing in 2021?

We still maintain our position that we believe a 600-plus solid margin is absolutely doable and that there are no signs that, that is too much under pressure. And the real gain, I think that's worth mentioning here as well, we -- as you know, we have stepped into this design services as well. We clearly noticed that by clever designs, you actually can make big gains on the total cost of the product without sacrificing on the margin of your product itself.

Okay. Question by Andre Mulder. You mentioned 230 kiloton at the end of Q1. Now you mentioned 200 kiloton. What has changed?

I'm not so sure whether we -- where that comes from. I think -- well, what I could imagine is that the theoretical capacity of the company is in the range of 240, 250 and that by assuming a certain order intake for oil and gas, it could come close to that number. But basically, we have never changed our prognosis on this over the last 6, 7 months?

No. No, because the order book is 300 kiloton, of which 200 in exclusive negotiations.

Yes. So Andre, if there's more specifics to that, please ask again.

Question also from Andre Mulder. Can Haizea and Bladt produce XXLs? Or do they only do small monopiles?

Well, I think Bladt was able to make an XXL but only 1 every 10 days, which is a bit of an issue when you want to build a project in a certain time frame. Haizea, definitely not. Haizea, definitely not. The layout of their factory is such that they will not be able to make.

Okay. Question then...

Leon?

Yes. We already received -- we're moving on the fly. Okay. We already received some questions by mail from [indiscernible] from [ Kempe ]. Our first question is relating to working capital. The question is, can you give an indication of the expected working capital reversal in the second half of '20? Do you continue to believe the long-term average will be working capital of around between EUR 10 million and EUR 20 million positive? Or will it remain sustainably negative in the upcoming years? Well, like I said in the presentation as well, the current situation, as far as working capital and net debt is concerned, is a snapshot, which is actually due to receiving a prepayment on orders just before closing of the -- of June and the phasing of the project. So it really is a snapshot. Two, what is the expectation as to working capital reversal in the second half? Like we said in the past that, especially looking at the cash flow of [indiscernible] and [indiscernible], this situation that we have now will reverse to what we still expect to be the long-term average, which is between EUR 10 million and EUR 20 million positive. Okay, then we have one more. We mentioned elevated sickness leave is, of course, in the quarter related to COVID-19. Do I understand correctly that people file absence but actually returned home to their family? Is there any measure to prevent this in the future? As in years, we have a full order book and tight schedule, and this may result in significant delays. What happened is a couple of things. First of all, if we have people in our company with any kind of indication, like a cough or whatever, we not only send them home, but we also send their colleagues home. And sometimes we even send a complete crew home for a couple of days just to make sure that if it was cough due to COVID-19, we would contain it to, let's say, a small group of people. So that drove up our sickness leave. Second to that, especially we saw that in March and April, is that we, of course, have hired people in-house, sometimes out of countries not being the Netherlands. And they were especially afraid, when the whole lockdown situation happened, that they would be caught up in Holland, couldn't go home, without any income since they were afraid that the government would also shut down the factory. What we did is we tried to convince them to have them employed by us so then we could solve the financial issue. But at the end, and I think we are all human, can expect that, they rather went home and -- because if there was a lockdown, they wanted to stay with their families and not in Holland. Also then when the lockdown was, let's say, released some -- with some countries, we have problem of -- the problems of people getting back because they were not allowed out of the country. Those are situations that we have to deal with. I think we're not in a position at Sif to prevent this. If this happens, it happens. So we have no specific measures in place to prevent this because I don't think it's possible. What we, of course, learned during March and April, is how to be flexible on this and how to shift around with your production, et cetera. But measures in place to prevent this, well, I don't think we are in a position to do that. Fred, you take the next one?

Yes, I'll take the next three. Thank you. Thanks for asking all these, I think, very good questions. So the fourth question you put on your list concerns production in which you asked, "Fred, you mentioned in your comments that production efficiency needs to improve. What kind of initiatives are being taken to increase stability and efficiency? Do you actually believe more measures need to be taken before company can produce at full capacity for a full year without running significant project risk? That's a lot of questions for it to be in one question, but I can talk for hours on this. But we spent last half year, actually, a lot of time, energy in a few things to improve the efficiency. First of all, mapping, again, the process, an optimum process between Roermond and Maasvlakte is one of them, as I mentioned a few times before. And in order to do that, we needed to find a good balance between existing experience in our -- in the team that we have with new knowledge and experience from others -- from other sides, meaning that the team for production and operation has been partly renewed, and newcomers have been added on that are now in place, understand the situation and working on that part of the game. The other one is preparation. We notice very clearly, also in relation to the project risk, that a better and more detailed work preparation and planning preparation brings a lot in order to reduce the risk later on and increase the efficiency. So that's why our operational organization was staying for this. And the operation office is now in charge of making a very detailed planning and also running, for example, a few tests and simulations before we actually start any production process. The third one is that we have said there's more -- have a better and detailed look at what equipment tools are -- and tools are needed in order to optimize the flow of the project through to production, meaning that also Leon and myself are constantly being informed about small changes needed in the production, why they are needed and what it brings to the picture. And that works pretty well, as we notice now, for example, in the preparation of Hollandse Kust Zuid and also in Saint Nazaire order. That's basically, I would say, a few of the highlights of what we're doing besides training of people, information and communication and whatever. The next question concerns the low water levels. Does your comment related to production efficiency also related to the supply chain risks? Water levels run dangerously low again this summer, and always represent an operational risk. What can be done to mitigate that impact, especially in years with tight production schedules. Thanks for asking that question because indeed, we had a very dry period this year again but did not have any problem with the water levels for our supply of material. Although we -- and we cautiously watch, of course, and monitor that. But you clearly know is that the whole water management policy of the local government, et cetera, and the ones in charge there has changed. So from a policy where water had to be drained out of the country as quick as possible, there's now a policy in place to keep water as long as possible in the country to avoid the situation that we faced in 2018. So despite the hot summer and the dry summer, we did not see any problem in the transportation of steel to our facility. Last question by [ Hank Keman ] relates to the expansion. "Fred, you mentioned in your comments that the existing company will mostly -- most likely be very busy with projects in Europe and that management is looking at opportunities outside of Europe. Are you referring to the existing operation in Japan and opportunities in Asia? Or does this comment relates to anything else in other parts of the world and maybe in other forms? Yes. Okay. You've got us, Hank, here. It's Mozambique. No, no.

You're not supposed to go there.

Yes. No, it's clearly definitely indeed Asia, but also the U.S., I mean, look, we're monitoring them both. But as we have mentioned many times, we have a small team in Japan. We now very successfully completed or nearly completed Akita Noshiro. And we see the Japanese market continuously, constantly developing. So we are in close contact with local governments, with potential parties, like we mentioned before, to investigate and put the business plan together to see if it's viable to, for example, go into that area, depending on the positive development as it looks now. And we are also very closely monitoring the U.S. We haven't changed our mind there that we believe that the first few years would definitely -- will be faced with European supplies there. But we also noticed that there are more and more hope giving initiatives to make -- to increase the chances of being successful with the local U.S. outlet there as well. But we will always -- as we said before, if we do something like that, we will not do it without a very strong local party. Those were the questions raised by Hank.

I think that we skipped one.

Did we?

Yes. We skipped the third question, which is about the number of permanent staff, which Hank said increased to 314. And the question is whether these hires are related to production or other functions, where he makes the remark that in 2019, we also hired more staff that was not directly related to production, which led to an increase in personnel costs. Why does the organization need these people where it did not in the past? Well, you're correct, the number of our permanent staff increased. I think, in general, the majority of this increase is production related, yes, like you know. And we said we're more or less rebuilding our production organization. So it's not only production, it's also quality assurance, it's also health and safety, et cetera.

But also redundancy of [ critical ]

Yes. Yes, but we also made some people redundant and replaced them. Next to that, we've always said that looking at the buildup of our staff, we are far too dependent on external temporary hire, yes, so we also have a policy in place to increase the permanent part because it makes -- certainly in a situation where it's, let's say, as COVID-19, et cetera, it's an uncertain situation, then you benefit from the fact that you have more stable permanent base. Why do we need those people? I think it's -- to put it in a short phrase, our clients have become more professional. The market has become more professional, and we have to increase our professionality as well. And basically, this is a result of that.

Thanks for adding that one.

Next question by Turner Holm from Clarksons. Can you provide more detail on the timing of the backlog? Do you have enough backlog at this point to reach full production capacity in 2021?

Great. I'll take that one, if you switch the camera to me.

[indiscernible] middle.

Yes. To simply answer it, yes. We are very confident that for '21, we will be placed with a very nice order book on the wind side. The oil and gas part of the game, as we all know, is not looking promising at all. And that is still a big chunk of our capacity. We can't use that capacity from -- the people, we can use for wind. But we can't use the equipment and the manufacturing [ halls ] for offshore wind. So if you then look at our kilotons for next year and our prognosis, we believe that we will be full on that. And it's a matter of time and time delays, I would say -- or I have to say it differently, manpower restrictions on mainly the side of customers now and then that -- a bit delay in the announcement of the firm order, I would say.

Question by [indiscernible]. Could you provide more insight on your contract win for the logistical services for final assembly of 5 floating offshore wind units?

No. We -- I think these units will be this big that everybody will see them when they are being completed. But it is, unfortunately, an agreement with the customer that we do not announce more than what we've just announced. But what I can tell you is that they are big, that the reason for coming to us is because of our facility, water depth, the space we have and the ability to come with very heavy crane equipment and et cetera, to complete these units before it goes out to the permanent location at the North Sea.

Okay. Question by Lotte Timmermans, ABN. Would you increase your capacity if demand is there? What kind of investments would be involved?

Thanks, Lotte. No, let me try to answer this way. We -- as you may have -- may know, we have given the market a signal that for the moment, we are not going to produce anything above 9 meter. Why? Because we first want to learn how -- what is the best technology in order to be able to produce monopiles above 9 meter at a tack of 4 monopiles a week in an economical viable way. We are very seriously looking at that question at the moment as we speak because we also believe that in 3, 4 years amount of time, we should be able to make these king-size monopiles. And what that means, how that translates in actual investments or capacity is still to be seen, but it's definitely on our strategic agenda.

Okay. What -- also by Lotte Timmermans, what kind of impacts the absence and sick leave on your first half EBITDA?

The camera needs to swing again. Can I give it to you, Leon? Or do you want me to answer?

Well, I think that -- I don't know who asked the question.

Lotte Timmermans.

You can do the calculation yourself. I mean if you look at -- we are now at a sick leave rate, we slide between 4% and 4.5%. And during the months, March, April and partly May, yes, we were at levels around 10%. So if you take the difference and just apply that on the personnel costs, you have a very good indication.

Sick leave and additional hires.

Yes, yes.

Final question by Lotte Timmermans, the Vineyard permit is scheduled for December. Do you still consider it a potential project?

Yes. The camera is now here. Yes, we always said we continue talks with Vineyard. We still, in that sense, continue to talk with them. We consider it still a viable project. But the world is continuing. Order inflow is continuing. Tender processes are continuing. So I think that one of the big issues, it really comes to the market, and it really becomes an order. And the question is whether we could fit it in between the other jobs we are currently talking. So we keep it in the year. We keep moving. Yes, it's still a viable project. But the question is, does fit us in combination with the other jobs we have done before.

And if I may add to that, Leon, the overarching question also is how will the political landscape, yes or no, change after the elections? Because we clearly notice that there are still a lot of political pressure at this moment to jeopardize a workable permit, so to say, coming the conclusion of the investigation coming out in December. That's a big question mark that I think the whole industry is waiting for it now to be answered.

Question by [indiscernible]

Maybe to add something to that, yes. It's normally not only Vineyard, yes.

That's correct. The whole U.S.

Yes. It's the whole U.S., that's – is waiting for some clarity. And on the back of that, we actually get requests for other jobs in the U.S., substantial jobs in the U.S. And what we see is that, I'd say, the whole supply chain is more or less hesitant to enter into talks or quotations because everybody is waiting for what's actually going to happen in the U.S.

Okay, question from [indiscernible]. This year's utilization rate of some 70%, you expect the contribution margin of low 600s. Could you indicate what this contribution per ton could be at 90% utilization rate?

Utilization rates...

And contribution per ton.

I mean the utilization, as such, has no effect on the contribution per ton. I mean the contribution per ton is just simply, I'd say, [indiscernible] minus your material costs, minus your subcontracting costs. So in that sense, the contribution per ton is not influenced by any utilization rate.

I think there was a final question. All right. So if there's no further questions. Oh, there's one here by [ Ron ]. What production capacity do you see Sif having by 2027, 2028 in kilotons?

'27, '28. Definitely the one we have today, whereby the big question -- and I just mentioned -- talked a bit about what is the implication of over 9-meter diameter on our facility. I think that before we have an answer on that one, we can't say much. But we definitely believe that what we have today should be felt in those [ days ] as well. So what does Japan do? How does U.S. work? There's a lot of questions that have to be answered, to be honest.

And I think this was the final question, and I think we can close down here.

All right. Then lady -- or ladies and gentlemen, thanks a lot for asking all the questions. Hopefully, this set up worked a bit better. Leon and myself are a bit worried because we can't see who is on the line. We would like to see faces next time again as well. Hopefully, that's possible. Hopefully, it can be a face-to-face meeting, and if not, then we will work on this set up a bit more to bring it as close as possible to a face-to-face meeting. Thanks a lot. Take care. Stay healthy, and have a good weekend.

Thanks a lot. Stay healthy, and thanks for your interest in Sif. Bye.