Siltronic AG (WAF) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Hello, everyone, and welcome to the presentation of Siltronic's Full year 2024 Results. Please note that this call is being recorded and streamed on Siltronic's website. The call will also be available as an on-demand version later today. Your participation in this call implies your consent with this. At this time, I would like to turn the conference over to Verena Stutze, Head of Investor Relations and Communications of Siltronic AG.

Thank you, Shelley. Welcome, everybody, to our full year '24 results presentation. This call will also be webcast live on siltronic.com. A replay of the call will be available on our website shortly after the end of the call. Our CEO, Michael Heckmeier; and our CFO, Claudia Schmitt, will give you an overview of our financials, the current market development and our guidance. After the presentation, we will be happy to take your questions. Please note that management comments during this call will include forward-looking statements that involve risks and uncertainties. For a discussion of risk factors, I encourage you to review the safe harbor statement contained in today's press release and presentation. All documents relating to our full year '24 reporting are available on our website. I now turn the call over to Michael for his remarks.

Thank you, Verena, and a warm welcome also from my side. As always, let's begin with the key messages of today's call. Despite the challenges in 2024, we achieved our annual guidance at the upper end. We have demonstrated our ability to navigate effectively through this period of subdued demand. On the market side, our semi-based market share remained stable year-over-year. A positive 300-millimeter development compensated our decreasing SD sales due to the planned exit of this business. On the cost and cash side, we have implemented a stringent program to manage this phase effectively. The ramp-up of a new fab in Singapore is progressing well and the important prime qualifications for the new fab are expected by mid-2025. And at the end of our presentation, I will walk you through our '25 guidance. Let's start with a broad overview of our developments in the financial year. Claudia will then give you a detailed breakdown. Year-over-year sales declined by 7%, which was at the upper end of the range. Our profitability remained resilient with an EBITDA margin of 26%, although we have definitely passed the peak of our investment phase, the still elevated CapEx of EUR 523 million and the payment overhang from last year's CapEx have, as anticipated, resulted in a continued negative net cash flow. Consequently, net financial debt increased to EUR 734 million. We have demonstrated that despite this prolonged period of weak demand, we were able to achieve resilient EBITDA margins. This was accomplished by implementing a comprehensive package of measures focused on cost and cash management. We transitioned our production from maximum output to high productivity and efficiency as soon as demand weakened. As a result, our labor costs were adjusted to the lower output through the use of working time accounts, a reduction of the number of temporary employees, implementing a qualified hiring freeze and starting an indirect headcount program. Additionally, we intensified our efforts to optimize costs across other areas. On the cash side, we significantly reduced our CapEx payments in 2024 and plan a further reduction in '25. We are also working on strict and effective working capital management. Another necessary step in this is our proposal to the Annual General Meeting on May 12 to reduce the dividend to EUR 0.20 per share. This corresponds to a payout ratio of approximately 10% of the consolidated net income attributable to Siltronic shareholders. While we are effectively managing costs and cash, we are prepared for growth. At the heart of this, our customers, driving our commitment to excellence. We are proud to do business with all big names in our industry. These relationships, along with our close partnerships with other major players in the semiconductor value chain and R&D spending drive our technological advancements and ensure we stay ahead of the curve as a technology leader. This commitment to innovation has confirmed our position as a successful development partner for the latest design rule development. We are ideally positioned with our clear focus on leading-edge technologies. Our strategy has proven effective during this prolonged period of soft demand. For leading-edge wafers, we have maintained high loading levels in '24 and expect the same for 2025. In short, our strategy ensures that we are prepared for growth. And this growth is further supported by our new leading-edge capacities in Singapore. And speaking of our new fab in Singapore, I would like to share some insights on the customer qualification process and its time line. As communicated, the first test wafers were produced in November 2023. Throughout '24, we successfully completed multiple low-spec qualifications. We are now working on the key prime qualifications. The wafers for these qualifications are now being evaluated to our customers and are likely being processed as we speak. This takes several quarters. And once completed, we expect to receive the major prime qualifications probably by mid-2025. As you know, this will also trigger the planned depreciation of the new fab. And as a reminder, regarding a new fab, we will continue to ramp the fab at a reduced pace also in 2025. As the lead times for some critical equipment have shortened significantly, the decision for 2026 will be taken later this year based on market demand and visibility. And as a reminder, our target for this fab remains unchanged. We expect the EBITDA margin to be above 50% on the medium term, making a significant contribution to our group margin. Let me now hand over to Claudia for deep dive into our financial performance before I come back with an update on the market developments and the guidance. Claudia, please.

Thank you, Michael. A warm welcome also from my side. Let's jump directly into our fiscal year 2024 results. As Michael mentioned, 2024 developed largely as expected, still impacted by the persistently weak demand in the wafer industry. Our sales reached EUR 1.4 billion, reflecting a 7% decline year-over-year due to a slight decrease in price, mix and wafer area. The U.S. dollar exchange rate had almost no impact on the full year top line. However, Q4 with EUR 361 million came in a bit better than expected, mainly due to a stronger U.S. dollar. Our full year EBITDA was EUR 364 million, down EUR 70 million compared to 2023. This decrease was driven by the reduced top line, which also led to a lower fixed cost dilution. And as I mentioned in previous calls, we benefited from favorable FX gains in 2023, which we didn't see in '24. On the positive side, the cost pressure in some categories, which were particularly affected by inflation increases has eased somewhat. This is evident, for example, in energy and freight costs. Additionally, our further intensified cost reduction measures, Michael mentioned some examples before, have contributed to a resilient EBITDA margin of 26%. In Q4, the EBITDA margin slightly improved sequentially, mainly due to a better FX result. Our full year EBIT amounted to EUR 125 million, impacted by the aforementioned EBITDA decline and an increase in depreciation of EUR 36 million year-over-year. On a quarterly comparison, EBIT was almost unchanged. The net interest result 2024 declined to minus EUR 25 million due to a combination of lower interest income from financial investments and higher interest expenses for loans taken to support our investments. The group's tax rate increased to [ 33% ] in '24, mainly due to deferred tax effects, which mostly impacted the fourth quarter, but which; however, had no cash impact. With all these effects, the full year net income decreased to EUR 67 million. As you know, Siltronic is clearly impacted by changes in U.S. dollar exchange rate. Therefore, it's worth taking a closer look into this. On the left side of the slide, you can see that in 2024, Siltronic had a U.S. dollar exposure of more than 80% on the top line, while the majority of our EBITDA costs are euro-based, making us quite sensitive to any exchange rate changes. To provide more detail, let me explain our current U.S. dollar sensitivity. Based on our '24 exposure and the exchange rate of EUR/USD 1.08, a change of 1 USD-ct would impact our sales on a full year basis by around EUR 11 million and our EBITDA by EUR 8 million before hedging. Our guidance for '25 assumes unchanged exchange rate conditions compared to 2024. In case of a stronger U.S. dollar, there could be a potential upside to our 2025 guidance. Let's shift our focus to the key developments on our balance sheet. By the end of '24, total assets have reached a level of around EUR 5 billion, up from EUR 4.5 billion at the end of '23. This growth was mainly driven by our continuous investments, particularly in our new fab in Singapore, which increased fixed assets by almost EUR 400 million. In September last year, we successfully placed the promissory note loan of EUR 370 million, which was paid out in October and enhanced our cash and securities to nearly EUR 670 million. The exceptionally high trade payables at the end of '23 were significantly reduced to around EUR 280 million by the end of '24. The level is still elevated and will be reduced further in 2025 with corresponding cash effects. Financial liabilities increased as we've drawn EUR 200 million of our syndicated loan in addition to the aforementioned promissory note loan, bringing our financial debt on the balance sheet to nearly EUR 1.4 billion at the end of 2024. Driven by the expansion of our cash position on the one side and loans on the other, our equity ratio has decreased to 44%, but remains at a robust level. CapEx in 2024 totaled EUR 523 million. Although our investment level continued to be elevated, it has significantly decreased compared to the previous year. For 2025, we expect a further reduction, targeting a CapEx range of EUR 350 million to EUR 400 million. The focus will stay unchanged on ramping our new fab in Singapore and our steady-state CapEx. Let's take a closer look at our debt situation. As illustrated in the bridge, Siltronic had net financial debt of EUR 356 million at the end of 2023. We generated a solid operating cash flow, yet it was clearly exceeded by the high CapEx-related payments, including a spillover from 2023. These payments have surpassed the additions to fixed assets by almost EUR 150 million. On top, we had a cash outflow of EUR 36 million for the dividend payment. In total, our net financial debt amounted to EUR 734 million at the end of '24. Looking ahead to this year 2025, as you update your models, I expect that CapEx payments will once again exceed the balance sheet additions, but to a significantly lower extent. We regularly inform you about the composition of our financial debt, which you can find here on the left side. As of today, we have drawn EUR 1.38 billion of our total loans, EUR 180 million are still untouched. On the right side, you can see the corresponding maturity profile. As previously communicated, we will begin to repay our debt in 2025, starting with a smaller portion of EUR 65 million. Additionally, our balance sheet shows short-term prepayments amounting to EUR 57 million, which we expect to refund this year. With this, I hand back to Michael.

Thank you, Claudia. Let's turn our attention to the market outlook. The good news is that we are witnessing clear-end market growth for the second consecutive year. In 2025, all end markets are expected to be positive, resulting in total end market growth of 7%. This growth comprises 7 -- 5% content growth and 2% unit growth. The main growth driver is servers fueled by significant content growth from AI. Smartphones are also benefiting from edge AI, driving content and supporting replacements. The automotive sector is largely content-driven with electric vehicles also showing unit growth. However, even though we are also clearly profiting from AI, the still elevated inventory levels need to be further reduced. So we likely won't see much of this growth reflected in our 2025 order books. Looking at the segments, Memory inventories are steadily but slowly declining. Logic appears to be closer to normal levels. Unfortunately, in the Power segment, inventories are further building up based on Q4 data. Let's conclude with our guidance for the financial year 2025. We anticipate sales in the region of 2024. This is due to a negative impact on average selling prices and the expectation that the solid end market growth will mostly not be reflected in our order books. Our sales guidance also considers the discontinuation of production of small diameters wafers effective July 31 this year. Regarding prices, the small impact we observed in 2024 became more pronounced in the second half of '24. Consequently, the starting point for '25 is lower, and we will likely see a year-over-year impact. However, the prices in LTAs are honored by our customers. From today's perspective, the H1 '25 will be below the second half of '24 by high single-digit percentage range as we have some more volume postponements from H1 into later periods, partially also in H2 2025. Our EBITDA margin guidance is in the range of 22% to 27%. The ramp cost for the new fab will be partially offset by savings in energy costs, especially in Singapore and in other areas. Depreciation and amortization are expected to be between EUR 380 million and EUR 440 million, mainly due to the planned start of depreciation of the new Singapore fab in mid-2025. Consequently, EBIT will be significantly lower than in the previous year and negative. As Claudia already mentioned, CapEx will be further reduced and is expected to be in the range of EUR 350 million to EUR 400 million. As a result, the company expects a further improvement in net cash flow, which will, however, remain significantly negative. With this, we conclude our presentation. Claudia and I are happy to take your questions. Thank you very much for your attention. Shelley, please open the Q&A session.

[Operator Instructions]

So my first question would be basically on your guidance. You're now kind of guiding for high single-digit decline in the first half of your revenue kind of progression. That means that there's definitely a lot of weight on the second half in order to reach your flat guidance. What gives you the confidence in this strong ramp in the second half? That would be interesting to see. And then on the second part would be end demand. So you were showing us the different parts of your expectation. And I would say some of them are quite bullish, especially, for example, something like automotive. What is your assumption for these going forward? And where from -- where do you see some potential downside to your estimates?

Thank you very much for your question. So with regards to guidance and H1, H2 phasing, we indeed did see some of our customers asking for volume postponements out of H1. And some of this have been allocated to H2. So in total, this gives the picture that is also, let's say, the general sentiment in the industry that H2 should be better than H1. So this is the situation around this H1, H2 phasing and then end demand increase around automotive, what gives us confidence and where are the risks on the one side, electromobility is increasing, and they show both unit and content growth. We see quite good dynamics in the server market. On the downside, we would rather articulate effects from the macro environment. So how would the drivers like PCs and smartphones really grow unit-wise in the end. I think that's a bit of the unknown in this picture. So overall, we feel the 7% growth assumption is a pretty balanced one on current knowledge with some risks and some opportunities in it.

[Operator Instructions]

The first was just kind of on your comments around inventory levels, particularly in terms of logic being at healthier levels. It seems a bit different from the picture given by some of your peers. So I was just wondering whether you give a bit more color on that and what kind of visibility do you have in terms of kind of customer inventories on that front?

Thank you very much for this question. I think like everybody in the industry, we're doing 2 things. We're collecting public available information from institutes, market forecasters, et cetera, and combine it with, let's say, direct insights we have into some of our customers. And that kind of gives a mixed and balanced picture around the situation. Your specific question on logic was whether it's very normal already. So we see it's close to normal. It's not 100% normalized yet, but it's not elevated to the extent that memory still is and power, for sure, is the most elevated in the current situation. So this is a bit the situation. So visibility comes both from our direct customer insight, but also aligning and triangulating it with public available and MI data.

Got it. And then I had a second question just around pricing in the spot market and how that's differing from LTA pricing for 12-inch wafers. And then also, it would be useful to know kind of what pricing is embedded into your guidance for this year as well.

Thank you very much. So there's no change in our general situation that around 2/3 of our business is in LTAs. And as I said during the speech already, in this LTA framework, customers honor the pricing. So there's no change around the LTA space. The other 1/3 is a bit more tricky these days. We have the major share of our LTAs for sure in 300 millimeters. So what I can say is the smaller the diameter in the wafer, the larger the price pressure is exhibited. We can also say that 200-millimeter is a bit a mixed bag there. There are certain subsegments that are more stable. Others also under, let's say, price discussion. So overall, this leads to the price statement we were saying that we saw some price effect already in '24, which was more pronounced in the second half. And this will be the basis for further, let's say, price discussions and effects in '25. But 2/3 is in the LTA framework. So that is not affected by this.

Got it. Are you able to kind of give a rough indication as to what level of pricing is embedded in the guidance this year?

So we currently -- I mean, the year is still early. We don't give any number or whatever, but we don't see a very changing environment, more of the pricing situation that has started in '24 will continue in '25.

I just have 2. The first one is a question on demand from China. Are you seeing the replacement of demand for your wafers, wafers from your Japanese peers, et cetera, with some local wafer manufacturers? And in particular, my question is centered around 300-millimeter wafers. That's my first question. And the second, just on maintenance and growth CapEx for 2025. Could you help us break down that guidance that you've given, please, into those 2 components?

Thank you, Gustav. So with regards to your first question, do we see demand replacement from China. So market situation, 300-millimeter in China is around stable. So we don't see significant changes or, let's say, market share developments there. And our general China statement is also unchanged that the smaller the diameter, the more advanced, of course, the local China manufacturers are still huge and significant gaps in 300-millimeter, particularly in the high-end and leading-edge corner. So there is no new statement from our side if you compare what we say like 6 months ago. On the CapEx side, we are currently not in a position to give a detailed breakdown between the further growth and the maintenance CapEx, but both elements are included in our guidance for '25.

I have a quick follow-up on your -- on the comments around '25 top line dynamics in H1 over H2. So can you maybe shed a bit more light on what is your view on the inventory correction? Should it really last for the full year? And I mean, to be fair after the whole industry is misjudging the situation, I mean, it sounds pretty brave to be confident on H2 growth acceleration, right? Or what do you can really kind of add on quantifiable targets to it? I mean hopeful thinking is one, but do you have any kind of hard numbers to support that the client will actually call off these H2 volumes?

Yes. Thank you, Florian. And I think I can reiterate, if you look at the different statements from our peers in general that the sentiment is better for H2 than for H1. I think that's a more general statement. For our company, in particular, I mean, we know those quarterly and H1, H2 phasing effects are typically dominated by individual customer volume shifts. And here, we know, of course, that some of the volumes that have been taken out of H1 are allocated to H2. So that gives us certain visibility at, let's say, some larger customers and related volumes that these are really happening in H2. So combining all this together leads to our guidance that we see H1 below H2 '24 and then the total year in the area of last year. And with that, you can do some math what we would expect as H2 growth. So I think it's a pretty consistent overall picture.

It's Amelia Banks from BofA Securities asking a question on behalf of Didier Scemama. Just one question regarding your China exposure. I can see that your Greater China exposure decreased in 2024. And I know you mentioned previously that China represents a double-digit percent of sales. I was just wondering if you could provide a bit more color on that and whether that still remains.

Yes. We only communicate the so-called Greater China numbers, right? And they are slightly moving but not significantly compared to last year. So I still think our statement is unchanged. But what I said to China is holding also for your question. And let's have in mind in China, we have both local customers, but also our China revenues would comprise business we're doing with multinational players having plants in China. So combining all this, we don't see significant new or additional dynamics in our China view and in our China business.

I just -- first question would just be about the 150-millimeter, the smaller diameter phaseout. Can you just say what contribution of sales that was last year? And presumably, it will be basically 0 this year, just so I understand the year-to-year headwind. And if there's any cost upside or EBIT positive contribution from that exit, I'm interested. And then the second question would just be around the covenants. Clearly, you mentioned that you don't have a huge amount of debt that's maturing in '25 and '26, but your leverage, including prepayments is going up towards 4x net debt to EBITDA. So what sort of covenants should we be thinking about that could lead you to be forced to do an equity raise?

Thank you, Rob. So I take your questions around the small diameters and then hand over to Claudia for the financial part. 150-millimeter business is mid-single digit for us. And funny enough, it's true both in '24 and '25. And of course, in the first year, we were more at the upper end of that mid-single digit in the second year, more on the lower end of that one. And then we closed it by end of July. So we can do, I think, some easy calculation what does it mean in terms of top line. The progress of this is very smoothly, both internally with all the related cost and HR measures, but also externally, we concluded our phasing out with our customers and look for a very smooth conclusion by end of July. And for the financial piece, I hand over to Claudia.

Rob, I take your questions regarding the covenants. We haven't disclosed any details around that, and we won't do a disclosure of any contract details here. So I don't, of course, know your model, which shows obviously a net leverage of 4. Our models definitely don't show such a net leverage, and I can say that with our guidance, we expect to stay within the financial covenants that we have.

Got it. And just a follow-up on the smaller diameter stuff. So you said it's phasing out in July. What is the reduction in COGS or cost from the phaseout in the P&L. Do we see it suddenly reducing? Or is it not that material?

Rob, that's just a minor effect. So we only had a mid-single-digit share in 2024, declining in 2025, given that we will shut down this production line. And so you won't see a huge effect in our COGS also.

Michael, I'll start with you. I've got one for you, one for Claudia. So Michael, the first one to you. I'm a little bit -- I'm just wondering if there's anything more fundamental going on, right? I was looking at the development of the semi market over the last 4 or 5 years and the wafer shipments over the last 4 or 5 years. And just like it seems really weird that inventories continue to be so high. And I'm just wondering if there are competitors that are showing stronger numbers even with regards to China potentially having a higher participation because wafer shipments have now been down 14% in '23, another 3% in 2024, despite the semi market being down 10% in '23 and up, as we said, 6% in terms of volumes in 2024, and then you expect another 7% growth this year. So I'm wondering why aren't we seeing a faster destocking happening here given the low level of utilization that you, SUMCO,[indiscernible] all operating in. Just wondering if there's something more fundamental going on here. That's the first question.

Yes. Thank you, Constantin. This was a long and almost comprehensive question. So I tried to give you a few key segments around this. So I think fundamentally, the overstocking during the COVID years in 2020, 2021 was unprecedented in the industry. There was always overstocking, but the extent and our experienced colleagues telling me that the extent of that was quite unique in the whole semiconductor industry. And I think that's one thing that was really fundamentally different. It was the pandemic, which something like shaking up and scrambling up and down the whole global supply chains, I think we never experienced before. Second difference we see compared to earlier cycles is very different segment dynamics. So in previous cycles, typically at a certain point in time, everything was oversupplied or became short almost at the same point in time. So now we see, as I alluded already a bit quite different market dynamics in memory, logic and power. Now power still creeping up and again up, which, of course, is a concern for this segment, while memory going in the right direction, but very slowly and steadily and logic almost being okay already. So I think those different segment dynamics is indeed -- they are quite pronounced these days. Is there other fundamental change? I mean, for us, always the market share is a very clear indication. So of course, there are different reports from peers. As you know, some of them doing also different businesses in addition to silicon wafers, you always have to be a bit careful with absolute growth rates when somebody is also doing a bit [indiscernible] or whatever. So from that perspective, we don't see fundamentals being changing besides what happened with the supply chains a couple of years ago. That's maybe how I would summarize this. So now I hand over to...

So if we think about market share then in the end because the recent presentations don't really have that data anymore, and you used to have the market share data in your presentations. But looking at the market share, you're still around the 13%, 14% level then.

Yes. Really stable is the statement, and that's correct, yes.

Okay. Then maybe -- it's a mix between, I guess, you and Claudia. So looking at 2026, I'm wondering because we have some long-term agreements. I think we talked about it in the last call that some long-term agreements are expected to expire at the end of 2025, and you obviously will have to probably negotiate on prices here. So 2026 seems to be quite at risk at the moment if we don't see a demand improvement on the volume side. So if we look at -- and I'm just trying to understand, right, what kind of negotiation dynamics could happen in these long-term agreements. Is there going to be significant pricing pressure that we could be talking about here? Or is there still a discussion where you can say, look, I've just invested EUR 2 billion into this new fab? We still need some form of agreement so that I'm able to generate x level of margin. I'm just trying to understand what kind of bargaining power you still have to hold on to some pricing in the negotiation of your long-term agreements? Because I'm just trying to get a feeling for how I should think about cash in 2026 if we see no improvement again? And what kind of a prepayment refund are we expecting in '26?

Yes. Thank you, Constantin. And with regards to pricing and LTAs, et cetera, maybe I want to separate 2 things. The one thing is what we know today, and that is, of course, 2/3 of the business is in LTAs and those prices are holding are respected and honored by customers. So now the speculation of '26 is, of course, a very different one and a very difficult one at the same time. I think the honest answer to your question is we really don't know in great detail, and it will depend on the demand dynamics. After now '23, '24, '25, I think the community is eager and almost convinced that '26 will be and should be a better year. And that's a bit the assumption everybody is working with. And such a dynamic then, of course, we would have a different -- or let's say, the wafer industry would have different pricing power than in a situation of continued soft demand. But given the fact that we talk about 3 years in a row now, '23, '24 and '25, I think there is some content almost that at a certain point in time, the end market growth of 6% last year now slightly ticking up to 7% this year, eventually then should make its way through supply chains and inventories. And Yes, I think that's all I want to say -- and...

Just one remark from my side regarding prepayments. So we do not do any statements regarding 2026, but I want to reiterate that our prepayments that we have right now on the balance sheet are reaching out until 2030. So there's an allocation over several years. So that you can assume in your models...

Okay. That makes sense. And Michael, just maybe just a quick one. Do you think that there is still any -- because look, at the moment, it's just like with power inventories going up. And if we don't see a proper recovery in end markets, it doesn't look like we're going to be seeing an incredible year in 2026, again, at least from the moment. So my -- what I want to understand is, is there any bargaining power left for Siltronic, for SUMCO for the fact that you have invested so much money into this new capacity when it comes to the negotiation of new long-term agreements at the end of '25 with regards to pricing? Or could we be running into a substantial risk situation where the wafer -- the chip manufacturers simply pressure you guys?

Yes. Constantin, I'm not sure whether I can tell a lot about really the bargaining power in 2026. But what we see and you referenced also to our investment in Singapore, we're ramping up a factory that on the one side is the latest, greatest and really focusing on the upper end and leading edge segment of 300-millimeter. And here already, we said we see a good loading in '24, which will continue in '25. So from that perspective, we feel that the investment is going into the right spot, that our strategy is working and that there will be, let's say, significant customer interest in those particular products. Whether that holds true across all diameters and across all segments and particularly in power, I understand your concerns and from the inventory developments, we cannot take that off the table completely today. But with regards to our strategic focus and key investments, we feel pretty well set.

Just 2 follow-ups, please. The first one is on the financing needs. So on the back of the envelope, I think you will probably burn around EUR 250 million, EUR 300 million in cash this year and probably the same will be the case next year if there's no change in conditions. With around [ EUR 70 million ] in cash, would you, at this point, exclude a capital increase at least for this year? I think you've given these kinds of comments last year, but just trying to see if you could confirm this. And the second question is really on CapEx. I mean you flagged that actual payments will exceed invest level this year. I'm just trying to see if you can quantify that portion of CapEx that is still to be paid and recognized and if this also includes the capitalization of the ramp cost for CapEx...

Yes, I can confirm that at the moment, we can exclude a capital increase. That's not in our agenda for this year. And regarding the CapEx-related payments, so the CapEx cash flow, last year, we had an additional, I think, EUR 150 million on top on our CapEx. So this year, we will also have a spillover from last year. But as I said, not to the extent of last year's spillover. So at a lower rate, but of course, we can't give here too much detail. Just to remind you, we have payables of EUR 280 million on the balance sheet. We still have an elevated CapEx level. We will take some of that also into next year 2026. So there will be a reduction of our trade payables, but not to the extent of last year.

Right. That makes sense. And maybe if I can squeeze one more in on the tax payments. I mean, given that EBIT will be negative this year, are there still certain cash taxes that you have to pay? If you could quantify these?

2025, you mean or?

Yes, yes, yes.

Yes, we didn't disclose any -- haven't disclosed any tax details for 2025. But you should be aware that tax is calculated and paid on a legal entity base. So depending on our site mix and we have some companies in our group, which are quite profitable. So there might be an effective tax expense this year, although the group EBIT is probably negative.

Just one follow-up on wafer volume pushouts. How is the level of pushouts trending at the moment when compared to Q4 last year?

Yes. Thank you, Juergen. I think it's very difficult to say it's increasing or decreasing. What we experienced here is a kind of continuous situation that from time to time, individual customers approach us, and we have those discussions around volume pushouts. The thing is it's ongoing. It's as we indicated already hitting H1 in particular, and some of those volumes are allocated to H2. So that's the underlying background for H1, H2 phasing, but also some are still asking for further pushouts. That's also true. So it's ongoing discussions. We see also in some, let's say, segments, applications, this is decreasing indeed, everything around leading edge is highly asked and our loading is pretty strong there.

And there are no additional questions on the audio side. So we will turn it now back to Verena for any closing remarks.

Thank you, Shelley. This concludes our Q&A session. Thank you for joining us today. We will release our preliminary Q1 '25 figures on the 30th of April. On this slide, you can see also our next IR event. Thank you, and let's talk again soon.

This concludes today's call. Thank you for your participation. You may now disconnect.