Sims Limited ($SGM)

Well, good morning, everyone, and welcome to Houston. Today, it's going to be a challenging day. The wait times at the airport are 4.5 hours. So we've done a slight alteration to today's schedule. Pretty much a lot of it as we present. So 8:00 will go through the NAM business. We're doing around about 40 minutes for the presentation, 20 minutes of Q&A. 9:00, we'll move over to the SAR business, again, same sort of broad format. [Operator Instructions] Let's make sure we're on the basset 1 to be frank, because even at that point, I think we still got a reasonable chance of missing our flight. Fortunately, there is another couple of flights after hours. So I'm going to first take a quick introduction on NAM and then hand over to Rob. I think we need to address this question right upfront. I'm sure it's on everybody's mind. What has been the impact of the Middle East on our operations. Well, to date, that impact has been very limited. We've had some increase, obviously, in oil and with the increase in ore we've had an increase in freight costs -- so let's go through -- I really just wanted to concentrate on the top line because I'm sure you can read this slide. What is the current impact on Sims. So very limited disruption to bulk virus volumes. We don't see bulkers through all the various choke points in that part of the world. Our bulk first through to Turkey. We go down into South America, Mexico, et cetera, and into Asia. So very limited impact on bulk ferrous at the moment. Containerized nonferrous, I'd say a very similar story. Yes, there's some more complications as the -- with flows, but those flows are continuing fine, and we're seeing a very limited impact on that, some increase in freight costs particularly in nonferrous relatively mild to the value of the cargo. There are higher shipping costs, obviously, with commercial terms, ultimately, higher shipping costs get passed through to a higher sales price or they get passed through to a lower buy price. So my overall summary is the message I'm giving is the very limited or limited impact on our operations. Currently, where the Middle East conflict ultimately goes, none of us know, and we will deal with that at the time. I've shown this slide in this form for a couple of years now. And what I want to is concentrated on the right-hand side. Again, I'm not going to go through in detail each of NAM's strategy in action, but highlight a couple of points. The first 1 is on customers and suppliers. We have really done a good job in strengthening the relationship with the domestic mills, and that has given us the optionality, which we have exercised to sell domestically, we are currently -- there are some -- the premiums for Shred over export are really quite worthwhile. We've also really expanded our unprocessed scrap and unprocessed scrap has been part of the core of growing our margins, and you'll see that NAM has owned its margins nicely over the last 2 or 3 years, and Rob will cover off on that as well. But if we turn to operational efficiency, it's all well and good to be buying more on process scrap, but you've got a process. And you'll see that the utilization of our plants, particularly [indiscernible] has grown quite significantly over the last couple of years. So we've really managed to take that unprocessed material, do what we do best and turn it into a high-value product through very, very good operational efficiency. On the innovative and agile, I think the same theme here, we talk about the commercial flexibility between domestic and export markets. That has been a key to the success of NAM over the last couple of years, finding the best FOB bus to maximize our margins. And lastly, a comment I'll make on best responsibility. The point I want to bring out there is this disciplined capital allocation focused on returns and asset utilization. And I think TCT which we are going to see today. But unfortunately, we no longer will be with this with the airport situation. TCT is a really, really good example of that, really good disciplined capital allocation, a very very good deal, strengthened the balance sheet, and Rob will talk with the asset sales, the land sales have managed to free up and Rob will talk about that as well. So my last slide here is just really to summarize the operational reset for them. I believe we can say that, that has been delivered. When I look back at NAM 2 or 3 years ago compared to today, the earnings stream is much more consistent and much higher, so lower volatility and higher. It's been achieved through cost structure. We're really, really concentrated on getting the structure that we want and reducing costs in NAM, so that even when market conditions are poor, and they had -- over the last couple of years, there has been months or it has been poor, NAM is still making a profit. And that's about making sure we've got the right cost base I've already talked about the greater commercial optionality across domestic and export markets, really, really, really important for them. Frankly, 2 or 3 years ago, we talked about export optionality but really, we just had an export part to market. We didn't have genuine optionality in the domestic market we now do. There's been a huge focus on cash generation and disciplined capital allocation. And that's been really important over the last year or so as we've seen nonferrous prices increase quite dramatically. By definition, we have to put more money into working capital in that situation, but I believe we've managed that well. The business now, NAM business with this reset is really positioned, I think, well to capture growth. Rob will talk a lot more about that, and we've got further operational improvements ahead as well. And the last thing, we are actively progressing inorganic growth opportunities. There is plenty of potential for us to get bolt-on acquisitions around our feed yards. And I think over the next couple of years ago, there will be opportunities for things maybe just larger than just feed [indiscernible]. I'm going to hand over to Rob now with that introduction.

Well, thank you, everybody, for coming to Houston as well. Joining me later on in the presentation will be Ryan Smith, our Chief Operating Officer; and Chris [ Giaconia, ] our Chief Commercial Officer. I just wanted to give you a flavor of the leadership team that's here -- you've seen this before. I'll just give you a little bit of a refresher NAM operations. We operate in, if you think about our footprint versus our SA Recycling investment, we operate in all of the top 20 cities in the United States. So a little bit more focused on the bigger areas, and that was predominantly from our past with historical export optionality but that proximity to people of proximity to populations has allowed us to continue to grow. We operate in 19 states, 76 facilities at this point and 15 theaters. I will point out that 2 of those shredders are for aluminum only. So as Stephen said, we've made significant progress operationally and commercially. If you go back to the first half of 2024 fiscal year, our trading margin, we weren't proud of that. And we took a very obsessed look at what we could do to be different and be better at accomplishing a more reasonable trading margin. And you can see that growth trajectory continues, and we're pretty proud of the progress we've made to date and the things that we're doing to continue to improve. EBIT falls along with it. As Stephen said, we're doing all of the little things. It wasn't one silver bullet. It wasn't just trading margin, but cost, SG&A, those sorts of things that we had to sort out as well. And not saying we can't have a safe business as well, our total recordable injury frequency rate, a little hiccup and just a small explanation in the middle '24 and '25 we acquired 3 companies at that time. And our safety culture isn't just slogans and discussions. It's actually the way we operate and making sure that our people return to their home safely, better, perhaps even the evening when they go home. Proud to say our FY '26 resulted us back on the right trajectory of an incredibly good safe operation. From a transformation point of view and leadership, we have absolutely strengthened what I would call getting the right people in the right seats. We align with the right priorities, incentivized and the right accountable culture. I'll let Brian and Chris introduce themselves later on, but we've strengthened our team with veterans that understand the industry internally and externally from a talent perspective. The simplified performance metrics, some people call them KPIs. We call them now, we also kind of use a little joke internally as keep people interested or keep people informed. And that was something that wasn't existing in our organization, understanding what is expected of people in their regions what their contribution is to the overall picture. And the balance in ferrous and non-ferrous of volume and spread or margin at the same time can be accomplished. That ownership and performance at a regional level, operationally, added to simplified decision-making and having those priorities understood aligning those priorities to longer-term goals of our stakeholders and simplifying those longer-term goals into medium and short-term goals with our team with their incentives, reinforcing margin, but also performance reviews. And then on a leaner and more efficient organization. We've taken our geography, and we've simplified it into 3 regions. So operationally and commercially, we're very aligned with those outcomes in those regions. And let's say it this way, is there wasn't a peanut butter approach. There wasn't one simplified answer to the solution. It was a very regional approach. Further to that, as Stephen said and alluded to, our planning process needed an overhaul. We're a complex business. We have complex customer base. We have a complex sales and not to mention a supply base. We've introduced the S&OP process. And really what it is, is a data different data-driven decision-making and analytics approach to our monthly plans. And we're always looking out at a 3-month plan, month 0 out to month plus 2. looking at not only what we can purchase, what we're capable of processing from a working capital point of view, from a capacity point of view, from an operational cash flow point of view and always looking at our logistics capabilities, what we can do to get to market, executing on the orders that we've had. Stephen alluded to it with employees, we have over the period of time that's looked out in the top right-hand corner delivered on the synergies from the acquisitions, but we've also looked at the need to have versus nice to have. So we've simplified our organization structure, got productivity gains out of it as well. And as you can see in the bottom right-hand corner, operating costs did jump in 2024. That's in line with our acquisitions. And then you can see we've been holding the line and fighting inflation with operating costs only going up slightly less than inflation over the last few years. All the while, the shredder utilization rates going up. And on the commercial side, the purchase and focus on process scrap moving up as well. And I'm going to pass this over to Chris to talk to you a little bit more about what they have been doing.

Good morning. As Rob mentioned, my name is Chris [ Ciconi, ] I'm the Chief Commercial Officer for NAM. As Stephen pointed to earlier today, we spend a lot of time making certain that we have sales optionality into both the bulk space and in the domestic space. The first 2 bullet points listed below, speak to that specifically. The first bullet point speaks to how we go about knowing where the best price is every single month and selling into that best price. That's through normal market discovery, talking with consumers, having relationships with consumers and being able to execute with that consumer when it is -- when it makes sense for us to execute, whether it's bulk or domestically. It's one thing to have the relationship with the consumer. It's another thing to be able to actually go about accessing the markets from our yards. That's what bullet point two speaks to. We've done quite a bit of that over the past several years, whether it's through railcar investments, shoring up or bolt loading facilities or simply expanding track space in a lot of our yards. We've made investments to be able to enable us to hit these markets at the right time when there's arbitrage opportunities get into the domestic space. We'll continue doing that. None of these activities are complete. We'll continue working towards moving more and more having and creating even greater optionality than we currently have. As of right now, there are -- we can certainly move the majority of our seed ferrous scrap from the East Coast, which was historically sold into the bulk space into the domestic market on a dime on -- we can shift into that on a month-to-month basis. The last bullet point here just speaks to the discipline in our buy sales spreads and our trading margins. The sales of scrap is inherently a global activity. We're selling people throughout the world. The buying of scrap is much more local activity. Once we know where the sales pricing is going to land, we have to be extremely disciplined in the local markets in which we're operating to make sure that we're maintaining our margins and explaining our trading margins except that we can. The last point here speaks to robust and rising fares markets when that occurs in the stronger markets, our shift focuses or shift changes to focusing on maximizing our margin per ton as the price scrap increases. The second slide is more of a nonferrous base. As you can see, our nonfirst retail volume has gone up. The first point that we are discussing here relates to our acquisitions of NEMT and [indiscernible] along with those acquisitions, we acquired relationships in the consumer space. We acquired people. We acquired the ability to move our retail nonferrous products into homes that are also being sold by to inventory. So it strengthened our customer base in North America, certainly. Secondly, as Rob alluded to or spoke to, we've increased our unprocessed ferrous scrap. When you're buying on process various scrap and putting it through a shredder, you're pulling out the aluminum, you're pulling out the or and not only is that helping us on the ferrous side from a trading margin lift. It's also helping us on the nonferrous side from a trading margin lift as well. And the third one is pretty simple. Customer-centric retail expansion. Retail customers are smaller customers. They're coming in with less volume. And we're making our yards more pleasant for them to visit, whether that's by setting a separate scale up, setting up separate places for them to dump concrete in different areas, different by location, but it's enabling us to be a better consumer for some of these peddlers that are coming in and out of the yards. That's all that I have. I'll hand it back over to Rob.

Thanks, Chris. I think the next couple of slides just want to talk to you about the demand side of the domestic market here this from Chris. As you all know, the North American market remains one of the largest and most liquid markets for scrap globally. If you think about Canada right down to Mexico, the size of the scrap market is eclipsing 100 million and 105 million tons with a consumption of probably around 95 million tonnes so a very large market, very much stable industrial post-consumer scrap generation and the domestic and export channels that are supporting liquidity. We've talked a lot in the last several halves about the EAF growth here in the U.S. probably about halfway through the journey in terms of the new capacity that's coming online. It's in excess of 20 million to 25 million tons now. There's more projects that are being discussed. All new capacity or brand-new technology coming online in an already dominating EAF market scenario. All driven really whether you sit on the left or the right side of politics by the tariffs that were put in place, really, 3 administrations ago, and just accumulating now on the latest double down in tariffs. The U.S. trade measures continue to limit imported supply. You can see that on the right-hand side. The second tranche of 25% that's coming online, making the tariff on steel imports 50% plus potentially CVDs and antidumping duties as well. You can see that decline in imports being picked up by the domestic shipment increases as well. So there's regular demand growth and then they're picking up the supply that's not coming in as further opportunity to expand their utilization and obviously, the shipments. In the bottom right-hand corner, just a couple of key takeaways on this. We haven't had a wonderful manufacturing environment. In fact, you could probably have said it's a manufacturing recession for a little while. Industrial production is starting to pick up. There is a new investment. Our consumerism in this country really drives GDP growth at 2/3 percentage of GDP growth. But you can kind of see some of the big ticket items we're expecting and the market is expecting to continue to start to inch up now that with automobile purchases and so on. So expecting continued growth, continued demand for the new capacity coming online. On the nonferrous side, just equally as excited. This time now, if you go back about 7 or 8 years, we seem to fill in any voids of your traditional nonresidential or residential construction. 7, 8 years ago was fulfillment centers and Amazon centers that were being topped up everywhere. That turned to renewable energy and electric vehicle manufacturing facilities. And then now what the mantra is, is these data centers that are popping up all along the East Coast in D.C. now in the state that you're in today in Texas, rapid expansion of hyperscale these data centers require not only the steel cladding and the infrastructure, several American football fields long or high but the extensive amount of copper, aluminum and wire that's required and the draw to the power grids. The top right-hand corner, you can see the expectation by Bloomberg is that there'll be a growth of over 65 gigawatts implemented to just keep up with the data center draw. And somebody a lot smarter than I am is tried to calculate what that might mean for demand for copper and aluminum in the bottom right hand corner, adding about 732,000 tons of aluminum demand and over 750,000 tonnes of copper demand just in this space outside of any other nonresidential demand drop. I'm going to give it over to Ryan here really quickly to just talk about our operational ability to perform.

Good morning. Ryan Smith, Chief Operating Officer for NAM. We've talked frequently this morning about the NAM's broad footprint in dense scrap generating areas and our relationship with supplier base in mills, both foreign and domestic. Operations goal in that is to safely maximize through discipline and analytics, those advantages. Some primary examples of us doing that are through targeted CapEx into our logistics platform in rail, large fleets and transloading capabilities to have the capability to access these markets, both foreign and domestic as determined. Also, our KPI, which set our utilization. We've talked about that frequently to maximize the value chain of on process scrap highlighted in the chart to the right. You'll see a small dip that was a well-documented severe weather case that affected collection. Outside of that, the number is trending and continue to trend. The most important factor that I would say is the U.S. point where we have the team, we have the discipline where we and the assets to scale the capacity to support even higher volumes to gain even more value-add and unprocessed material. On the nonferrous side, we are equally positioned to capture the high value through the nonferrous value chain. Our NEMT and [ alumsource ] areas are making mill-grade products and shipping direct. They've also given us insight and further access into the domestic market. and shown what we could do from an end-to-end capacity operating perspective to maximize margin. That could be through granulation or that could be through ratio aluminum, but it has allowed us to maximize. Now we also talked about [indiscernible] utilization on the last slide with that and the room to grow comes our need to operate inside the FSR sphere. So to maximize our metal recovery plants at all of our 15 shredder locations. Through analytics and discipline yet again. We are looking to have KPIs and targeted CapEx to get higher volumes, higher returns through those processes.

Okay. I was hoping this would be a little bit of a prelude to your visit, but you're all welcome to come back. And perhaps in the next year, we'll have renovated our new home. You've seen this before, but the purchase price at $66.5 million, we think a reasonable EBITDA multiple accretive acquisition you'd see there, adding to an already performing region, adding another $25 million and getting this region a 20% return on invested capital, adding 350,000 tonnes, consolidating the market to some extent, and then with a third party, very cost-efficient operation. You can see here robust infrastructure in the picture to the right. We have an 18-year service agreement with 2 optional 5 years. So plenty of time to continue to grow in this marketplace. As Stephen alluded, we have a lot of land here. We had plans to develop a property on Mayo Shell Road. As we called it internally, this is sort of our no regrets strategy here where we don't have to put the money into the infrastructure. We have the infrastructure at our hands and it allows us to monetize some valuable land. Just to describe what you're seeing in the picture in front of you, the vessel with the cranes. That's no restriction from a beam perspective dock. We can load Supramax vessels there on a scheduled basis. The slip to the left side, the upper left-hand side, that's our dedicated space. for handysize vessels of 30,000 ton vessels and/or barge docks. So we're currently and we are planning to show you today, we are loading domestic barges in that location as well. We have 2 main parts of the yard where you can see right in front the piles of scrap. That's where we would stage the material for loading into barges or cargo, bulk cargo and or barge. And then just behind that is a processing area where we will be processing mostly cut scrap. On the very left-hand side, just important to know we have an unsecured area. So inside of that space is regulated and controlled by customs and really the Coast Guard. So it's called the secure area. So it's very much regular. We also have an area where we can dump and receive scrap from smaller-sized dealers a little bit easier, as Chris said, kind of wrapping it up then, just looking at the NAM platform for growth. Proud of the results that we've accomplished. We're not done yet, as Chris said. So looking at growing through network expansion, we've called it from a greenfield point of view or small peddler bolt-on acquisitions, our road map. Really looking at it regionally, where are we missing material from a catchment point of view where there are logistics opportunities, ferrous and nonferrous to be better and improve from a customer service and also from a capital deployed point of view, what else can we do to drive value through the -- through our investments. And then there'll be just like TCT, opportunities where the stars and the moon and the plants all aligned, and there's 2 willing parties that see value in a transaction. We're open-minded to those, and we're looking at those opportunities very, very targeted in our search and those discussions that we're having. Continue with our operational optimization and that coordination with commercial, what we can buy, what we can process, what we can get to market in a timely way from an operational cash flow and a cash conversion cycle point of view. The recovery improvements, critically important. How do we manufacture and recycle societies, products that they have no use for and also look after the recycling needs of the industrial area as well. And then the commercial side, as Chris has alluded to, direct marketing to the most profitable homes. We're fascinated with not shutting the door on any customers, but we need to get the best price. We need to get the best net revenue price for all of our products. And then obviously, keeping focus on that spread and that margin adjusting our buy prices accordingly. And with that, I will open it up for questions.

Rob or Chris, can you talk a little bit about how you come to your buy price, like maybe the regions that you look at when you're thinking about by price, how sophisticated the person selling you actually is and how they change where they go based on the price?

Sure. Yes. It's the interesting part of this North American market lead is we're self hedged. So the market adjust on a monthly basis, calendar basis. So Chris and his team, and I'll let him jump in with probably more detail than I can give you. We'll negotiate what the mills are willing to pay for scrap on that monthly basis. And like any other business, we have hearing on how we buy scrap. It's usually -- it's a bit of a reverse commodity. In terms of more volume commands a higher price on the buy side. But we tier that down right to the lowest common denominator across the scale with a retail peer -- anything you want to add to that, Chris?

Sure. I mean -- Yes. The only thing I'll add is it's a regional strategy, as Rob said, in whether you in Chicago, whether you on the East Coast, where you're in the west, there's different competitive pressures in those rigs. We do have competitors that we're dealing with on a day-to-day basis. We're making as many decisions to buy scrap is oftentimes we're making to not buy the scrap. . If it doesn't make sense from a margin perspective, which you've seen through Rob's presentation on, we're walking away from scrap in some instances, prepare scrap mainly that doesn't make sense. So from a strategic perspective, we're looking at our competitive nature in each region and we're seeing what our sales prices are. And we're being extremely disciplined on making sure we're making the margins that we land to make in each of those regions.

Okay. And then yes, so it seems that I should be thinking about the buy prices ultimately, you look at what you can sell the product for and then you use that to set your buy prices at the way to think about it rather than the regional competitive structure and things like that as to what you should be buying scrap out and then sending it around your network.

Yes. It largely depends on the sale price setting our buy price. Suffice it to say the buy price is a critically important part of profitability in the scrap industry. Our differentiation, we've talked a lot about logistics and whatnot, your capability to get to these markets is critically important as well. So saving a dollar there, saving. I don't want to minimize the sale price, but the pipe prices is counterbalancing as well with that equation.

And sorry, just going on from that, how sophisticated do you think the person selling to you, like for the bulk of your volumes, how sophisticated are they? Like how much are they paying attention to the price you're getting them the shopping around with other offers?

It depends Lee. I think the -- the -- if we go to an industrial account like a Ford or GM, they're very sophisticated. They're buying new steel, so they're very in tune with the goings on in the marketplace. Nonferrous dealers and processors are very sophisticated and in tuned but right down to somebody that cleans out their garage and not sure what they have in their trucks. So the range and diversity of our supply base is tremendous.

And then just a final one. The middle in base impact on Turkey. Like have you -- can you give us an idea of what you would be exporting now versus domestic? Because if you look at kind of the media reports, it would seem that Turkey is back buying and paying again for U.S. scrap. So just how that's changed for you would be interesting to know.

Got it. We have not stopped shipping to Turkey. Turkey is one destination. It's an important destination as a large importer of scrap metal. Our shift has been predominantly to ship Turkey cut grade packages now. They're not able to pay the premium price for shredded predominantly as a producer versus competing with a flat-rolled producer here in the United States as being able to fetch a lot larger selling price. That said, Chris has done a tremendous job diversifying our sales base domestically. Our global trade fairs under Michael Gaylord has done a tremendous job also diversifying our sales base. internationally as well. So Turkey is a very important client to us, but we ship to all over the Mediterranean all over Europe and South America and obviously, South and Southeast Asia.

I think, Stephen, when you started off, you said the NAM piece was largely done on the operational front. And yet, I guess part of what came through, Rob, from your presentation. Was this still seems like a decent pathway of operational improvements within them. So do you want to maybe just unpack a little bit of that? And do you think how far along that journey, we think we are?

Yes. The bones in the structure at North America Metals is very solid, very stable at this point. I think the part that we're alluding to is not -- we're giving you a granular number, but it's 15 theaters operating at 70%, not all are equal. There's still some learnings within the organization that we can transfer. The metal and waste side of it is, as you can see with the pure demand for aluminum and copper is a very motivating factor for us. We're paying to get rid of that failure for us to capture that metal and that's a revenue stream that we generate from a cost problem today. So those are the sorts of things that we're going to work on organically. Ryan sure with his team has capital investments that he wants to make us better or more cost-effective as well. So nothing tremendously different than what we've been doing, but just continuing on the improvement side. Thank you.

Lee, 1 thing I'd add to that before we move on to SA Recycling is for the last -- your question a question around we've met this operating challenge and now where do we go forward. For the last 2 to 3 years, we've had a program a term called the Must Win Battles, which would really around a transformation and turnaround. And for them, it will simplify SIMs by right [ SelfSmart ] and operate best. And we've had a huge focus on that. I guess what I'm trying to say is I believe we've -- as Rob described it, the bones, the scout and the structures they're now delivering that. And I guess internally, I'm introducing a new concept, which is about leaving base camp. And that's kind of the imager around that as we've done the work, I think, to get ourselves to base camp. We've got ourselves fit the metaphor will fall up over eventually. And it's now about leaving base camp. It's about earning the right to grow the NAM business with sensible, disciplined capital investment. And I think TCT is a good example of that. So yes. That's the way I kind of differentiate between where we've got over the last 2 or 3 years and where we need to go to now. So we will move on to say recycling. So is a recycling, I'm just going to do a very brief introduction before Tyler and Mark take over. SA Recycling has been, frankly, a fabulous investment for SMS and for SIM shareholders. We have a really strong relationship with them and we work incredibly well together, and it is a very complementary portfolio. Here's I think the way to simply really think about the portfolio and the way we think about it, if you draw a line across the middle of the U.S., broadly speaking, there's always out light of it across the middle of the U.S. We operate north of that particularly on the East Coast and through into Chicago and in Northern California. And is the recycling, broadly speaking, operates south of that, all the way from Southern California right across the bottom of the states and up into to the Southeastern states. So our portfolio is incredibly complementary. The detail within the portfolio is quite different, though, and we'll talk about that over the next period as tighter in March take us through. But you can see, we've laid out our various operations. And I guess the one that stands out the most is that SA Recycling has significantly more shooters to us, and that provides them some advantages. But a very, very complementary portfolio. And as shareholders, I believe that's the way you should think about it. We have a portfolio of assets. You're 100% invested in NAM and you're 50% invested in SA recycling. We look at, I guess, a quick summary of those differences. And I'll throw out a couple of points. In Main North America NAM, we operate very large-scale shooters in highly populated areas. We've got them in Chicago and in Jersey, San Francisco. We've got incisively highly populated areas and very deep and not so much very competitive market from a dealer perspective. In addition, we advise our exclusive Ferrous broker, and we are the nonferrous agent. If I look to SA Recycling, you say recycling, and I used the word dense and Sims and I shouldn't, because SA Recycling has a month much denser network of Strides and a very, very good position of feeder networks feeding into those rates. For those of you we went to [indiscernible] last year, in fact, Guaneri even takes it 1 step further. When takes nonferrous duty nonferrous from some other mother treaters in the SA Recycling we [indiscernible] processes at be in addition to its own treated. So it's a very very hub and spoke, and they've been incredibly successful at that. But what does this allow us to do when we combine it. We certainly capture value right across the distinct U.S. structures and various other points have listed there. The 1 I really want to highlight though, which I think going forward is going to be a real feature in Ferrous in particular, is around the -- the way we're positioned to benefit from all the that's growing in the U.S. over there, what's grown in the last couple of years and certainly what's coming through to 2030. We are well positioned between the 2 entities around all of those or virtually all of those EAFs in a position to really become strategic suppliers and capture that value in the chain from that expansion. I think that's enough talking from me on SA Recycling. I'm going to hand over to Tyler, first of all, to give us a really good run to around the way he thinks about SA Recycling.

All right. Good morning. Thank you, Stephen, and thank you for having me. My name is Tyler Adams. I'm the Chief Operating Officer at SA Recycling. You make sure I understand heart this. All right. So as many of you know, SA Recycling is a joint venture with Sims, predominantly operating in the Southern United States. Approximately 4,000 employees across our portfolio, operating in 15 states, approximately 150 locations, 22 shredders, 9 copper granulating machines, again, across the United States. I want to start first, obviously, on the safety side, and this is going to point a little bit back to what Rob was alluding to when they had a blip in their safety is that -- when you experience excessive growth, oftentimes, it's difficult to implement your safety programs, our safety culture. So you can see on the blue line here on the left side, that is the growth trajectory of the number of locations. We're currently operating at over about 10 million man hours per year. That's adding anywhere from 1 million to 2 million man hours per year. So as our workforce has grown and our portfolio has grown it's been a little bit more challenging to institute that safety culture rapidly. So that's a huge focus of ours. You can see on the black line, as that slowly trends up, it's really. Those new facilities really contributing a little bit more to the recordable rates. But really, our legacy business, which is an important point, the more mature our operations are and the longer that our employees are part of our safety program and culture, we're really seeing phenomenal safety results throughout, again, our more mature portfolio. Rob spent a lot of time talking about the U.S. market drivers. So I won't spend too much time on it. But certainly, we're seeing robust dynamics in the U.S. domestic market, everything from copper consumption, aluminum consumption, steel demand, et cetera, very strong dynamics going on in the U.S. domestic market. Again, multiple administrations now have been supportive of whether it's the 232 tariffs and really creating an environment in the U.S. domestic market that we've been really well positioned to capitalize on. So that's contributed significantly to our performance over the past several years. And we expect that trend to continue. As Steve alluded to, EAF capacity his slide, we see almost 6 million tons of EAF capacity coming online in the next several years. And I'll get into a slide on really our overlay with much of the EAF consumption. But Again, our portfolio and our growth strategy largely has been centered around developing a platform that can really feed into the U.S. domestic market, both logistically and from a supply perspective. Want to talk a little bit about just our network, and you can see here, again, Stephen mentioned a little bit about our density. And when I look at our operations, you'll really see -- we have basically 15 operating entities. They're not perfectly aligned with what these circles represent. The circles are really more of our hub-and-spoke type methodology. The light blue circles being really our feeder yard networks that are sourcing and collecting scrap, really at the base foundation of the supply chain, which is from a lot of small customers. And this whole network strategy allows us to source hopefully, the cheap units possible within the marketplace. So while we maintain processing capacity at virtually all of these facilities, it's really centered around feeding into our shredders, speeding into our aluminum hub yards and really capitalizing on sourcing, again, the cheapest scrap as possible to maintain the highest margins across the platform. I'd like to look at all of our 15 operating entities almost as individual entrepreneurial type entities in the sense that they're really fighting and establishing and this goes back to Lee's question on really setting pricing, but it's really a base level decision-making process where they can establish their buy prices and maintain their margins independently. So really highly effective and again, maintaining the margins and reducing our by price. Similarly, the unprocessed volume that we're able to procure across this platform again because of our peer yards and the facilities that are sourcing that material, again, has allowed us to really maintain a very stable trading margin. And so also going back to the hub-and-spoke methodology. So you have the hubs and spokes and we really have a much larger hub network. And if I can go back to our network here, again, you guys went to [indiscernible]. We can send in and process all of our ASR from these remote shredders and it allows us to capitalize on the investment. The investment in our nonferrous recovery technologies are obviously very large. So for example, in Phoenix, Arizona, we also ship and send our other shredder aggregate all the way into Phoenix. We use our logistics network to capitalize and increase our recoveries and really get the last bit of metal yield out of that SR. So from a geographical standpoint, here's a map of the EAF footprint across the United States overlaid with our facilities. And optionality has been brought up a lot today. And when I look at optionality across SA Recycling's portfolio, we have bulk loading access on the West Coast, we have both loading access on the East Coast. And we also have both living access in the Gulf. So from a bulk perspective, we have plenty of access to Gulf markets. But when we look at the domestic demand, we're seeing, again, significant demand in EAFs. And from both sides of the country, we can access that domestic market very easily. We've been increasing our railcar capacity, our railcar fleet is now pushing close to 1,000 railcars. Internally and privately owned railcars. And that allows us now to shift what was historically an export-oriented business, for example, out of Los Angeles where we traditionally were loading we were from 2 to 3 bulk cargoes per month. We're now down to about one bull cargo a month, right? Most of that volume is now accessible to the domestic market. And we're feeding those tons all the way back east really. So we're going all the way into the Mississippi River from the West Coast. And so the footprint really allows us to shift and shuffle our tons in our volume. So our commercial strategy has been one that now allows us to really flip and shift tons based on what mill outages we're seeing across the country and really where the demand shifts are happening. Oftentimes, the Southeast market could be very strong or subsequently, we may see strength in, for example, the Midwest market. And so this picture really allows us to kind of shuffle that our supply to really capitalize on changes in domestic market on a monthly basis. Again, you can see the breakdown just between our domestic volume in the first half, probably the highest percentage of domestic sales volume that we've seen in -- certainly in recent years. Talk a little bit about logistics. But again, you can see the rail map here on the left-hand side as well as the river system on the right-hand side. Obviously, I mentioned the bulk loading capacity. We're a very large container shipper. We can ship containers export, obviously, across the country. But more importantly, we have access to rail surf facilities on the NS, the CSX, the UP and the BNSF. And that, again, really gives us the power and the flexibility to shift our volume to whatever region is where we can maximize our sales price on an FOB basis. We have barge loading capacity in along this river system, so we can strike the Mississippi River from either the Midwest from the Gulf. We're increasing our barge capacity, hopefully in Miami. Again, that will allow us to funnel scrap even from South Florida all the way up into the river system or in the Atlantic. From a consolidation perspective, strategically, we've been heavily investing and expanding again into this optionality, whether it's acquisitions for bulk capacity in the Southeast or expanding our nonferrous processing capacity, we've invested tremendously on bolting on to this regional framework that we have that really allows us to take much more of a sourcing and own -- captively own much of our feedstock across the portfolio. So that's been a key strategy of ours over the last decade. And so or hubs has been strengthening over the course of the past several years. And much of that is still coming to fruition, I will say. Oftentimes, we're buying undercapitalized assets -- they're strategic in the sense that their operations that have been in existence for a long time, but they do require capital investments and they require, to some extent, a maturation period before we really see than reaching the point of an ROI where maybe our more mature assets are able to achieve. So we're seeing significant growth in that area. And I think we have a long runway in terms of opportunities to continue to grow and really expand into the networks that we've created. So if you rewind maybe -- well, really it's about 11 years ago, you wouldn't have seen an operation that SA Recycling operated that would have been east of El Paso, Texas. And today, when you look at our map, obviously, we're almost more concentrated in the East than we are in the West. And so the size and scope of our business in the East Coast has grown tremendously. And really, we have growth opportunities, almost in 360 degrees of many of our hub and networks throughout our Eastern portfolio. Again, going on our -- much of our acquisition strategy. You can see we had roughly 52 yards added up until about 2020 and so we're seeing this accelerated growth cycle where we've been able to add 70-yard or 76 yards more or less in the last 5 years alone. So it's been accelerated growth, and we're really trying hard to build upon a platform that allows us to, again, exponentially grow and add into the portfolio that we've been able to establish over the last decade or so. From a utilization perspective, we estimate our state utilization capacity somewhere to the tune of about 50%. And really, that basis on the idea that we have a lot of shutters, right at 22 shredders operating today. We have several idled shredders across the marketplace. These are shredders that we've consolidated within a market that really don't make sense because the again, undercapitalized or they're not in a market where it makes sense to operate multiple shredders. And so we have a tremendous amount of capacity that's available to -- the question is whether or not the supply is available. And so when we think about our utilization, it's really more about scrap availability and whether or not our charts can sustain at healthy margins and then take level to support running at a higher utilization rate. We've seen instances that being said, where maybe a competing shredder goes down, and we'll see our volumes double overnight. And we have 0 issues handling literally double the volume within a 1-week period. So we believe we have a tremendous amount of capacity and much of our, again, strategically we're looking at trying to source and control that feedstock so that we can increase that utilization rate. Outside of that, we certainly spending a tremendous amount of CapEx investment just on expanding the opportunities that are existing within the domestic market. So there's a lot of talk today and -- or in the market today about aluminum demand and copper demand. Again, we've seen a lot of our investments going into high-grading aluminum and copper products, whether that's investing in our shopping lines or increasing our MRP or nonferrous to shred recovery technologies. So we've recently commissioned our lives line, for example, in [indiscernible] specifically targeting high-grading sorbent whether that's Vesper and Ginger and then further segregating Vesper into Shred-it 6x, 5x and 3x. Similarly to [indiscernible] with our Herman operation being able to create and produce shred 3x and 5x to meet very specific aluminum demand. So much of our growth strategy is not only in expanding operations but improving the operational capacities that exist within our existing locations. We talk a lot about hub and spoke from a ferrous and shredding capacity, but it's a much different picture when you look at the hub-and-spoke methodology for our nonferrous processing yards. So again, we have a much more complex hub-and-spoke methodology when you look at our nonferrous platform. But we've seen tremendous growth in the nonferrous retail space. Our ability to procure and secure high-margin nonferrous items have really allowed us to increase our throughput and our capacity from a nonferrous perspective. Margins have been very healthy on the nonferrous side. And we're seeing really companies with strong balance sheets and strong liquidity, really have been able to, I think, more capitalize on the working capital demands that exist in the non-fair space. Obviously, copper trading at $6 requires a tremendous amount of more free cash flow than copper at $3. And so we've been able to really capitalize because of our balance sheet and our access to capital to widen and expand our availability to get to gather non-fresh commodities. Already spoke to our M&A growth and the runway that we have. And so we still think that there's a tremendous amount of opportunities out there. We have a very robust acquisition pipeline. It's really coming down to identifying which ones we want to prioritize and how quickly we want to move. And so there's a tremendous amount of opportunities and consolidation available out in the marketplace, which we will continue to pursue over the coming years. And on that note, I will hand it to Mark Sweetman and we'll try to leave plenty of questions for or time for questions.

Thanks, Tyler. Good morning, everyone. I just have a couple of slides for you here today. I think we covered a lot of say in back at the in September. So just really a little refresher on a couple of aspects. So SA's balance sheet, I have to say I feel really good about as balance sheet and where we're at. We built up a $2 billion sort of assets over the last 18 years. What I really love about it is that when you think today with the gearing rates at 0.48 and SA's gearing has basically never exceeded 50% we have completed in excess of $1.5 billion worth of acquisitions since SA was formed. But maybe more importantly, from a gearing perspective is -- but the $1 billion worth of those acquisitions have happened in the last 6 years. So we've closed on about 41 acquisitions over the last 6 years, where we had 31 in the first 12 years. So to be at that space with less than 50% gearing, I think, is pretty good. A couple of comments that I always feel are worth making about the balance sheet, especially talking to Australian investors, where you guys are used to using international gap. I think one significant difference to U.S. GAAP is our balance sheet here. We're amortizing away all the goodwill. And so we have -- when you look at that $2 billion worth of an asset base, it's worth noting that all of the acquisitions, basically that we did through pretty much 2020 of the $190 million worth of goodwill or intangibles left on our balance sheet, only about, I think, $8 million. So that relates to acquisitions prior to 2020. And those assets that existed at 2020, we're running an average of about $140 million worth of EBITDA on an annual basis, and there's just no intangible on the balance sheet associated with them. And then the other issue that -- and Sims, obviously, we're here in Houston have just liquidated some properties that have significant off-balance sheet value. Well, Similarly, SA has a very large property portfolio. We own over 100 of the $147 million locations that we're running. And of course, a lot of that property is in places like California and Florida. And so as we stand today, I can very conservatively estimate that there's about $350 million worth of value in excess of the book value of our land. And so then my view on the sustainability of this earnings growth. And in general, how do I feel about where SA is and our potential to keep this going. There's just -- there's a lot to be very positive about for SA. Tyler has talked about and we've talked to you about the defense regional networks that SA operates with. So when you think about the fact that SA is running 22 fires shredders and 2 aluminum shredders across the country, we're handling. There's 3 or 4 of the major players in the U.S. handle approximately, let's say, 5 million tonnes. But SAs handling those tonnes with 22 shredders. And as we said, with the 50% utilization rate. So it just -- we have this excess processing capacity. And so for us, adding additional acquisitions and bolt-on feeder yards, we already have the processing capacity so it gives us the ability to adding capacity, if you want, at a lower cost because the processing costs have been already has been spent and the processing capital is already there. You look at SA's growth on the nonferrous side over the course of the last 15 years, our nonferrous business has grown at a much faster rate than ferrous business, and we're now one of the largest, if not the largest nonferrous player in the United States. We're handling about 1.6 billion pounds of nonferrous a year. And a huge portion of that is obviously aluminum. And as Tyler mentioned, we've just installed some advanced processing capacity on the East Coast. For the aluminum side, there's a lot of engine around the potential for aluminum in the coming years, which the various speakers have discussed, and we're just really nicely positioned with a high volume of that product for further processing and our ability to earn incremental margins is something to be excited about. We have -- as I did mention the utilization that we're really at 50%. And so there's great opportunity there. When you think about the fragmented market and our acquisitions were we are probably somewhere in the region of maybe about 8% of the business in the United States. So there's obviously a lot of runway there as they exist in states. And so with a lot of excess capacity. So there's still just even domestically here in the U.S., there's still really tremendous runway and tremendous opportunity across the United States, even within our own just existing footprint to add bolt-on acquisitions. And a lot of the acquisitions that we've been doing in the last few years have been just all within the existing footprint, adding feeder yards. And there's been commentary here this morning about the incremental ferrous capacity that's being added in the U.S. And so obviously, we're extremely well positioned there. So I feel certainly very positive about our potential. And maybe the last comment I'd make in terms of the sustainability of us would be -- if you looked at SA and say, 15 years ago, we were a West Coast export ferrous business. And really in the in that last 5 years is the diversity maybe is the most exciting part about SA is just the diversity of the platform that has been built in the last 15 years, where we were, in the past, if the export cars market on the West Coast have gone into toilets, we were in a lot of trouble. And so today, as Tyler commented, we redirect that material and domestically, even off the West Coast. We're now, I think it's 55%, East Coast, 45% West Coast today. We have a huge diversity in our logistics platform. So if the export market is there, we have 3 docks. If the domestic market is there, we have a big rail and trucking network if the Mississippi River is frozen up, we can put the material in railcars. There's a lot of diversity built into the business. And of course, the ferrous, nonferrous mix, where we would have been 90% ferrous 15 years ago or 16, 17 years ago. And today, we're almost 50-50 in revenue terms, actually, we're about 55% nonferrous, 45% ferrous. And so that's really it for me. I will turn it over to questions and answers hopefully.

For that Tyler, do you want to talk about the economics of high-grading non-ferrous. Can you give us an idea of what it costs you to upgrade the product and what you get from a sales pricing in response to that?

Sure. So when you think about high-grading nonferrous and really value-add items, it really comes down to which category we're talking about, right, whether that's on the nonferrous to thread side, which obviously is largely going to be mechanically sorted and separated. You got high volume, high throughput, whether it's lip technology, x-ray technology, et cetera, in terms of taking a would otherwise be a mixed amalgamation, if you will, of nonferrous items and segregating out the copper, the stainless cast aluminum rod aluminum, et cetera. So from a cost perspective on that side, we don't expect that it's really more than a couple of pennies, right? It certainly is a significant capital investment. But outside of that, the machines are largely mechanically separating those products with relatively minimal amounts of labor, right? And so you're processing many tons per hour with really a marginal increase in your labor demand. Outside of that, when we look at our nonferrous retail side, and this is really where our retail and our [indiscernible] business, I think, adds a tremendous amount of value is that you're buying across the scales, again, a lot of, let's just call it, #2 copper, right? There's a lot of upgrades that those materials can be cleaned and segregated. You're pulling a lot of nonferrous items out of your in files. And so by sourcing a lot of your material from the public, we're able to upgrade and hydrate so many of those nonferrous items. And that's a significant contributor to our overall margins. When you look at -- you're paying, say, $0.07 a pound for steel, and out of that, you're recovering, and we track a lot of metrics on really the upgrades from our 10,000 or steel piles. We'll put a lot of our yards against one another in the sense that, let's see, we can upgrade the most material, right? And by tracking that metric, you're really adding some of your highest margin commodities throughout our platform are coming right out of our steel piles. But again, that's a much more expensive process because it's all manual, right? You're physically pulling and cutting electrical cords and pulling copper out of refrigerators, et cetera. So I would argue that when you're looking at the cost from that perspective, you're more in 05, $0.06, $0.07 a pound, right? But your upside maybe $2, $4, right? So you have significantly more upside on that. It's a more labor-intensive process and it's going to be more expensive. But there's a lot of value to be added from the manual sortation of nonferrous items.

Excellent. And you have -- in terms of the you talked about the capital spend to do that? Like what's the freight capacity in that part of the network? I mean I take clearly some of it's manual labor, but the equipment that you've installed, is that similar utilization rates to the stated capacity that you have.

So I think in some of this technology, right, and there's been some disruptions in the alumina market, right? The fires that we've seen in Novelis, for example, have really put a lot of turbulence in the aluminum market, especially domestically. So we haven't necessarily seen the demand catch up to the products that we're capable of producing, right? And so to some extent, I think some of this technology is a little bit ahead of the demand curve. And so Vesper, for example, as [indiscernible] now has coined it, they didn't even establish a name for that commodity up more than less than a year ago, right? It was at [indiscernible] 2025 where they even established what this commodity was going to be called. And so there's a lot of discussion around it. There's a lot of hype around it, but I don't know that the -- really, the aluminum consumption has caught up to the availability of this product in the marketplace. So there's been several months where we've even taken the line down just for improvements because we haven't seen the demand there yet. So when I think about the utilization there, I think, long term, there's a lot of demand for those products. But we're not really seeing the utilization rate on that equipment yet even to what its current capacity is. But that's really by choice and because of the lack of demand and the premiums that are available for a vest for products or shredded 6x, for example. I think given our shredded aluminum business where we're targeting specific sheet products. There's been months where we're intentionally reducing our intake and flows because there's just not a demand for the shredded 5x, right, at a price point at which it justifies really running at full capacity.

Okay. That makes sense. And then Rob and Stephen, this morning talked about the journey that they've been on with NAM and optimization. Like where do you see the opportunities in your business to try and push that by sell spread?

There's a maturity level that some of our operations required to get to, right? And so we still have a tremendous amount of investment capabilities in the existing platform, right? And whether that's adding sharing capacity for cut grades or adding bailing capacity for nonferrous items. So again, we're acquiring oftentimes distressed and other capitalized assets. And these aren't assets that we can just deploy an unlimited amount of capital in instantaneously, right? We want to justify them, Rome wasn't built in a day, right? It requires kind of a maturation in the business. We need to grow the volumes enough to support the capital investment. And so we're seeing -- there's still a tremendous amount of opportunity for us to invest in our existing assets and our newly acquired assets to really expand the processing capacity. But it's hard to do that until you can justify and prove out the volumes and the intake that you can establish within that business model. So we could probably go out and spend double our CapEx budget on improving our existing business, but we can't necessarily justify it yet. So that's why I think we see a lot of the opportunity -- it's really more along the lines of can you grow out a network that can support and justify the CapEx investment within that business.

And then you talked in some of the slides just about the number of acquisitions that have been done over the last 5 years. Like what do you think is a sensible number that we should be thinking about the next 5 years?

There's a joke in our company that we've never seen a scrap yard we don't want to buy. And so it's I think that to the extent that the acquisitions that we continue to purchase and acquire can continue to be accretive to our bottom line, which we expect that they can. And as long as we maintain discipline in our acquisition strategy, and we continue to drive and add EBITDA, I would expect that we're going to see a continued growth trajectory. And I really don't even necessarily see it as linear in the sense that the more acquisitions that you can establish the stronger moat, if you will, that you can build around your platform, then the more exponential you can get from really from a growth trajectory, right? And so we're very aggressive when it comes to that. Really, my father and my brother, Calvin and I really are negotiating all of these deals really simultaneously. And it almost becomes a challenge as to who can pitch the better deal, right? And then we can go out and really justify which acquisition we want to prioritize over the other one.

I think I'd also comment to that one. I didn't mention it in terms of the balance sheet and the other side of the balance sheet. So we're actually in the process of refinancing our credit facilities at the moment, and that is an update from September. So we previously had a property revolver and then like a working capital revolver, we're bringing both of those together and hopefully closing maybe towards the end of this week by March 31 and we'll be closing on a $1.25 billion credit facility that will be made up of an $850 million revolver and a $400 million term loan. And so that facility will add an additional $200 million worth of capacity. And I think it's probably fair to assume that if we've processed $1 billion worth of -- I'm talking more like the enterprise value of it. But let's say, $1 billion worth of acquisitions in the last 6 years that I would expect the pace to be continued at something similar. So somewhere in that region of 100 somewhere between $100 million, $150 million worth of acquisitions. Annually would seem likely based on our past number of years. Just -- sorry, just one other thing I'll add is that we did also liquidate several facilities, especially up in the Ohio and Pennsylvania area. And really, that was an effort to really reposition ourselves in what we would consider our more core strategic markets. So we sold a shredder to Tenaris, we sold a shredder in Columbus. We sold in multiple transactions we've liquidated and to kind of recapture some of that capital so that we could redeploy it elsewhere. So we're really trying to, again, maintain some type of structure and diligence around really sticking with our core market areas where we see the most growth opportunities.

And then on the property side, like you've clearly built a pretty enviable property position. How would you think about surplus property, if any, in that network?

Yes. We're pretty aggressive about liquidating excess properties. There's really very little excess. There are a couple of small facilities, but there's nothing of significance unutilized within the portfolio at the moment.

I would say it's relatively insignificant at this point in terms of underutilized properties. We liquidated the [ Mansell ] property, for example, as part of our Cleveland Cliffs acquisition of FPT South Florida, right? So we're trying to use some of our excess property as leverage in some of these transactions, which we were successful in doing. But for the most part, we really don't have a bunch of excess.

My question is on the pricing of copper and Ali. So when trading between COMEX and LME, how do you approach pricing division across the 2 markets since both the indexes in the exchange can move very differently. So what tools do you use to protect margins and the spread that is attractive on state. So obviously, the past 18 months, let's say, there's been incredible volatility in arbitrage between the 2. To be honest, there's a lot of months where you really just need to get in the back seat and pause, right? You hit the brakes and really try to understand what's going on. Most of -- and much of our copper is priced generally on [ Comex, ] especially domestically. And during much of that volatility, we saw a lot of people that no longer wanted to price of [ COMAX, ] right? And so they're shifting their contracts from Comax to LME based. And so you need to manage the spreads, right? The spreads will fade out tremendously. And again, that could change in a moment's notice. And so oftentimes, when we experienced that extreme volatility, we're really just pausing, right? And we're giving immediate direction to everybody. Look, we're pricing off of the most conservative scenario because we don't want to be in an over exposed position where we're because the markets are moving so fast, right? And many of our customers are very savvy, right? And they're sitting on several loads of copper and they realize that all of a sudden, they can't position themselves, right? And so whoever is slowest to understand those market dynamics could get stuck with 5 loads of copper that all of a sudden, what you thought you were selling at $0.25 spreads is now $0.75, right? And so really, our strategy is always over communicate what's going on in the market and always use the most conservative scenario when it comes to the current market dynamics. So we do have long-term position. So we lock in many of those spreads. Except we conserve those spreads for, what I'll call, like naturally natural inbound material. So we know that we're buying x number of loads per day, and we know that we have a position on those. But I want to wait those positions on getting 1 or 2 whole loads from 1 specific customer. So we really go and take the most conservative approach to those dynamics.

Thank you very much, Tyler, and Mark. Great presentation. Just some concluding remarks from me. The first one is that the Q's gone to 4 Houston so though we will be looking forward to that [indiscernible] So secondly, my second comment is when I sit back and listen to the presentation, the way I think our shareholders should be thinking of you should be thinking of your investment in North America. As I said, it's very much as a portfolio. The combination of Sims and SA Recycling the way we work together really does deliver rely strong position right across the United States, which is I just think, fantastic. So I can say, internally, we don't really think of it very much as -- we don't think of it as NAM versus SA recycling. We think of it a portfolio and how do we think we can benefit across that whole portfolio. So I'd like to leave you with that thought. Thank you for the Q&A that was fantastic. Look, with a little bit of luck and fear in we will see each other again on the video tomorrow in Nashville, Plan B would be we'll maybe have to do it by split video conference across Nashville and Houston, but let's see how we go. We're going to all head to the airport now. Thanks very much.