Skyworks Solutions, Inc. (SWKS) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Okay. Welcome, again, to the -- our tech [Audio Gap] We have 2 left here. But really pleased to have Skyworks here. Liam Griffin was here 2 years ago, and on that same day, they introduced their Sky5 platform. And there's been a lot of great things that have transpired since then. We're really pleased to have them back here. Liam is going to kick us off by spending some time giving a little outline of what Skyworks has been up to, and then we'll go through some questions and answers. And let's take from there. So Liam, thanks for coming.

Great. Thanks, Bill, and thank you for the JPMorgan team for hosting today. And I appreciate you referring back to the Sky5 launch and announcement which we did do at CES 2 years ago. And I can say that there's been tremendous change and opportunity from that date to today and even more substantial upside that we see going into the future. Certainly, 5G is a technology inflection. I think everyone in the room understands to some degree. I can tell you from the Skyworks front, we have been investing in this technology for years. We are leaning on the decades of experience that we've had in 2G, 3G, 4G, and now this incredible inflection in technology in 5G. We see that opportunity to go well beyond the handset. That will certainly be a major catalyst for revenue and a major catalyst for content. But over time, we expect an incredible unit uptake and measured in tens of billions, as we go into IoT, automotive, machine-to-machine, industrial, health care, education, there's really no end to the markets that will be impacted by 5G. And again, think about it as a technology. It is not a product. It's certainly not a brand, and it's not a slogan, but 5G is something that really is going to revolutionize what we do, all of us, the way we work, the way we live, the way we play. We've got gigabit speeds, tremendous capacity in mobility and then a long, long tail of connected things that haven't yet even been put on this Earth yet. So really excited about it. I'm happy to say our team has invested substantially over the last few years. We've added tremendous capacity in temperature compensated SAW. We do our own custom gallium arsenide in-house. We craft our solutions with our own packaging and assembly. And we're now bringing in BAW filter technology and shipping that today as well. So those unique underlying assets allow us to configure and construct unique systems for our customers. And having been in this industry for 20 years, I can tell you that the move from 2G to 3G was tough, 3G to 4G even harder, but this move today from 4G to 5G is like nothing else that we've seen. And I think our peers in the space would share the same sentiment. It's going to be difficult, but it's also going to be incredible for the companies that can handle this and can basically make that leap into this new level of technology. It's really going to create new market opportunities that we haven't seen and propel the markets that we're already in.

Yes, great. That's a great introduction. I think really try to frame 2020 and beyond because there's been a lot of hype on this really for a couple of years now, but now we're kind of starting to see some fruit, products hitting the shelves already. There's obviously a lot of modem makers bringing products to markets here this year. We're seeing prices starting to come down for 5G phones, particularly the -- like Xiaomi announced a phone that could be basically priced at $300. These are really attractive price points. And then, obviously, your largest customer presumably brings products to market second half. I guess with all this in mind, how should we think about the ramp over this year and over the coming years for a technology that just -- is really just had its nascency?

Yes, yes, that's a great question. The way I would look at it, Bill, is if we go high level, you've got about 5 billion mobile subscribers on the planet. And 99% of them are carrying a 4G, 3G or 2G phone. So 5G is still very new. But that upgrade cycle, that inflection is going to go across that entire 5 billion unit ecosystem that we have today. So we're excited by the rate of change, and we are seeing acceleration in units right now in 5G, and we talked a little bit about it in our last earnings call, but we continue to see that move. But you just have to look at the tail. We're at a very, very low base that is just going up. And I think when we start to see the value that the subscribers have and the usage cases that will be deployed, some of these new usage cases, we're going to see more and more acceleration. So we're not at all worried about the number of units. Our job is to put the best technologies inside each and every one of those phones, work with our customers, enable them to win and really deliver on this promise of 5G.

Yes. No. And certainly -- and we're definitely going to try to -- we'll get on to the IoT, because I think this is an opportunity that's going to be probably bigger than anybody thinks over some period of time. But really, the tip of the spear is smartphones. And there's really a lot of content opportunities in smartphones, too. You elaborated, like that meeting 2 years ago, you talked about a $7 content uplift going from 4G to 5G. We estimate some flagships going from, say, mid-20s, around $30, and this is all sub-6 gigahertz. The mid-tier and lower-tier phones presumably are kind of single-digit dollar content. So I was hoping you can kind of give some insights to how the content opportunities look across tiers for Skyworks because your opportunities certainly seem much larger than they did in the 4G area.

Yes. No. That's a good point. So you can start with the absolute value of content, and we can talk a little bit about the rate of change. So on the higher end, we're definitely seeing RF architectures that are getting into the $30-plus level, including lots of different functions, low-band, mid-band, high-band, carrier aggregation, antenna tuning. We also, at Skyworks, deploy a lot of technologies that we really don't get a lot of fanfare about, but we do things like GPS. We do things like Zigbee. We have a lot of technologies around that. WiFi has been really important to us. So there's a significant opportunity on the content side with the flagship phones. And by the way, it's necessary because when we get into 5G, just to back up again, typically, we're roaming at 700 megahertz to about 2.5 gig today. That's the spectrum that most of us are using right now. 5G is an entirely new slice of spectrum. And to be able to transmit and receive in those new areas, that new spectrum above 2.5 gig, 3 gig and higher, you need unique technologies. So the content is absolutely necessary to be embedded in a 5G phone because it's just not there yet. And we'll also have backward compatibility to 4G and 3G. So the incremental 5G components will be an overlay on what we see today on a typical 4G phone. But the challenge is making all that work together in a physical form factor that works with massive demands on current consumption and performance. So the architectures have to be really lean and cohesive. And that's one of the reasons why we say things like crafted and customized because we really have to do that and then deliver it as a system. Sky5 that we talked about 2 years ago, that was the intention for Sky5, and that's what we're rolling out right now. So on the high end, that's where we're going, and you could get $25, $30 or more with companies that we know very well and companies that we're working with today. Now if you go to the mid-tier, there's still a great opportunity in 5G. You have customers in other parts of the world, emerging markets, some areas in China where the typical content today could be $3. And that $3 could go to $6 so you could have an absolute $3 gain. But on a percentage basis and a volume basis, it's equally compelling to what we can do on the high end.

And I guess, presumably, the lower-tier phones, you mentioned $3 of RF content. Presumably, that might be done with, let's say, discrete components or cobble together solutions. I presume that 5G actually has kind of a not only that content gain, but that's where like -- kind of almost an addressable market expansion opportunity for Skyworks because you're really not dabbling in a lot of these discrete components. So kind of coming back to what you said earlier about the complexity, like -- this seems like it should be a natural extension for your business and an opportunity for you, but I just want to make sure you think I'm characterizing it...

No. Yes. You're right. Because a couple of things. The complexity is real. It's daunting. It's challenging. And the way we work as a company, we try to put our customers in position to win. That's job one. And what we learned, even at the high end, is that our customers, they have deadlines. They have current budgets. They have cost budgets. Our job is to go in and try to craft with them solutions that work for their market. The leading smartphone guys may want it a certain way, we work in their manner. When you go to some of the other players, the discrete implementations become so messy, okay, and so inefficient that Sky5 solution needs to come in and kind of really integrate that and provide a system. You can't do high-performance 5G in a discrete layout. It's just not the way the market wants it. It's not going to perform to the specs that we desire. And it's really, for us, quite positive because we know how to bring that integration. We know how to deliver that in a way that works for the customer.

Yes. I think this is probably a little bit less understood. I mean you obviously -- you have a very large customer that's been really leading in RF, but there's a big tail of customers that are moving in the direction, will be needing similar solutions that you've been providing for years and really new solutions for 5G that don't exist today. Want to just kind of talk a little bit about the interface in the sense that you and your -- I'd say your closest peer tend to be -- seem to be focusing on sub-6 gigahertz. And frankly, that's where we see a lot of the opportunity as well. But there's other people that are talking about millimeter wave. I was hoping that you could share your insights on millimeter wave in phones, kind of the timing of it, what Skyworks is doing in millimeter wave. What are -- what you could do uniquely in millimeter wave. I guess, embedded in that, why you're focused on sub-6 kind of gigahertz opportunities currently. I mean what needs to happen? Like what are the base technologies you or others need to provide to make millimeter wave work and really kind of become a more high-volume product?

Sure, sure. Well, as you said, the opportunity today up to 6 -- up to 3 gig, 6 gig is still very strong, and we're continuing to work that. But millimeter wave is a real technology and it has promise. It also has some roadblocks or some handicaps. Theoretically, you could get incredible speed and some latency opportunity. It's great for, I would say, highly densified markets going into a football stadium where you have 60,000 people trying to use StubHub, right, walking through. Examples, campuses, things like that, very, very dense applications. The drawback is, it's expensive. It's physically large in a handset, draws a lot of current, and it has some line of sight issues that are just not tolerable in most environments. So you need a line of sight. You can't have any impediments there. So there's some drawbacks. There's some good elements to that, some strengths, but there's also some drawbacks that haven't been fully ironed out. In the meantime, we have investments in millimeter wave. As you know, we are a company, and I'll just note it for the audience. We make things in-house at Skyworks. We've got 8 billion unit TC SAW fab in Osaka. We have a fab in Singapore. We have our own gallium arsenide in U.S., in L.A. and in Boston, Mexicali for so many tests. We make things. And so we're crafting millimeter wave, and we're placing bets on that. But as we look out and what we're hearing from the customer, not just what we want to do but what our customers want to do, and their intensity and their ambition around millimeter wave hasn't been that strong, but we're going to follow suit and continue to keep a couple of small bets on the table there.

Okay. Yes. No. That makes sense. Maybe just kind of addressing the, I'll call it, the competition, but really, it's sort of a sense of not necessarily direct competitors but just competitive ways to do things. One company has obviously talked about a lot of RF attached with phones that use their modems. We believe that really, over time, the smart fingers are going to really select the best-in-class RF, especially when it ramps. And we're also seeing signs automotive makers are coming to market. That's sort of one aspect of the competitive question. But the other one is through component bands, one of your customers have had to kind of cobble together some solutions. But as we've sort of talked about it, it's really not -- maybe not the best way to do it from an efficiency point of view. I was hoping you could address the competitive landscape and what makes you at least among what we believe is maybe very few winners in this space as we look out over the next few years.

Yes, yes. I mean there's been some interesting shifts in the landscape. Again, we talked about 5G, and I would say that, and I really believe, that we are uniquely positioned to lead. And part of it is putting the investments in early, and I just rattled off all of our sites and locations. But there's a lot of capital that went on there, a lot of capital, a lot of investment. We don't just add capacity by buying more machines. We craft technology to make it better at every launch. And some of that is by working with the best customers on the planet that drive us to do that. In collaboration, we get better as an organization. So I think it's a competitive advantage to have your assets in-house. It allows us to do the kind of things like a Sky5, which is really the integration of many, many, many, many complicated things that are delivered in a highly configurable, easy-to-digest solution to the customer. So that's hard to do. If you don't own the sites all the way through, it's very difficult to do that. You can't -- this is not a fabless play here. Some players may go that way, but not us. So that's a big advantage, having the flexibility to craft our solutions. We can often take a solution and go 80% of the way and then iterate in the last 20% of our production line to make it work for this customer but maybe not that customer. So having the ability to -- high-yielding, high-tech assets under our watch make us a better company. Giving our customers choice rather than giving them a solution and take it is a big difference. Our ability to line up with all the baseband providers, whether they're friends or foes. We know how to do that. We know how to do it. And the main reason why we know how to do it because our customers want us there. So it's a combination of customer concern, wanting us and then our ability to craft and tune to make it work no matter what that playing field looks like. So we take a lot of pride in that. It's something we're going to continue to do in 5G.

Maybe addressing the discrete components versus something you guys can provide.

Oh, yes, yes. Well, the discrete component thing that you see today, and you alluded to maybe some of the issues in China, it really -- customers don't want the discrete components. They may have to do it in some cases if there's limitations through a band or whatever it may be. They want us still be in the game and they find a way to cobble it together. But the discrete implementation, especially now in 5G, where we've talked about how complex it is, that's not a desirable path to lay out the RF architecture. So we think that's going to be a short-term issue, and we'll start to see much more of an integrated approach being adopted.

Yes. That's definitely shared belief from me as well. I want to shift gears now on mobile. And you've already spoken to it and kind of alluded to it a little bit that 5G opens up opportunities that probably really no one in the room can kind to quantify with any sort of certainty right now. But just maybe taking a step back, broad markets which had been growing strong double digits for a few years, it decelerated last year. I think some companies have discussed impacts of tariffs, their supply chain relocations in the WiFi space probably had an impact. WiFi 6 delays probably had an impact. What are the -- if you look back, what were some of the areas where growth lagged? But I guess, more importantly, looking ahead, assuming some of these prior impacts of supply chain relocation are now in the past and assuming WiFi 6 can take off, I mean, just kind of holistically in broad markets, how should we think about the trajectory of growth this year?

Yes. I definitely see it improving. If you look at 2019, 2019 was a very difficult market for the industry. We all know that. And we had unique impacts. Even though our revenue was down 13%, which -- not a great year, the overall market was down at a similar level. But our broad markets business had been a double-digit grower. So I think the biggest challenge in broad markets last year was one of our larger customers in China that we weren't able to ship to, and we did quite a bit of infrastructure work there. So that impeded the number, but it does not, in any way, impede the opportunity for us. In fact, we've been spending more time and energy on expanding the reach in broad market. We've got design wins in automotive. We've got a tremendous suite of solutions in connected home, names like Ring and Amazon. We're getting into the industrial space, names like Raytheon and Bosch. So we're continuing to drive that thesis. And then the great thing, and this is many cases, it's technologies that we either have technologies in-house that we can craft them to be ready. So we're not trying to reinvent the wheel. We're taking the kind of stuff that we do very well and bringing it to markets that need the technology. And the whole IoT space, whether it's WiFi 6, which we could do, or whether it's 5G, IoT, which we could do, is going to be really unique catalyst for us in broad markets over a long period of time.

Yes. No. And maybe that's leading to the next question. I think yesterday or earlier today, you had the press release on the Massive IoT, 5G IoT. I mean what -- and you're working on it, but it's probably really small volumes now. But what -- I guess how unique is it compared to smartphones? What do you need to do differently, the market approaches? What is your approach to really address all these non-smartphone IoT applications, I guess, with 5G, in particular? And obviously, what gives you confidence that you'll be really kind of the go-to supplier in this maybe cellular IoT? That's -- it could be enormous opportunity, tens of billions as you suggested.

Yes. Yes. So there's a couple of things. So it's a 2-part play. So number one, we're doing work with carriers, okay? We're working with Verizon, NTT DOCOMO, KDDI, SoftBank, working with the ecosystem providers because this is all new stuff. And so we want to be able to go across the entire spectrum. We're also working with customers that, quite frankly, are new to wireless companies. If you look at some of the IoT, industrial IoT names, they're dealing in an environment where things are wired. They're cabled, whether it's Ethernet or opto, and we're coming in there and unwiring. We're unwiring for these folks. And we're doing it with IoT. We're doing it with cellular. So there's an interesting change in our business model there because typically, in smartphones, the customer, we can argue, discrete or integrated, but they know their game. This is what they're doing. When you're going into these new markets, there's a people relationship issue here that we're working on. And we're getting really good at this, bringing in FAEs, crafting solutions and then also demonstrating a real usage case. There are examples. Bosch had a video where there's examples where you can program what you're going to build today. It could be entirely different than what you did yesterday, the day before and next week by using robotics, industrial, IoT, machine-to-machine, no wires. What a cool thing that could be, right? And it's real. So those kind of usage cases are just starting to roll out right now and will really add to the TAM at Skyworks. And then you can get into some of the other things that are a little bit more consumer-oriented that are interesting, whether it's security and motion control, things like that, that we're involved with today. WiFi has been a great portfolio for us, streaming media, some of the things that we watch, streaming media awards. And you think that's, well, that's kind of fun. It's entertainment, it's Hollywood, but it also plays for us because the average consumer right now, the average under 30-year-old doesn't buy a big screen TV, like we did, right? They're looking on their phone. And maybe in your house, 6 people are streaming 6 different things. It's not 1 TV anymore. So that's actually -- think of that way. More subscribers. Everybody wants their own stuff. So that's a cool market for us to play in it. 5 years ago, that wasn't on the field at all.

Yes. No, absolutely. Maybe just the other aspect that I think has been -- I won't say pretty recent. You've been a supplier in infrastructure markets for a long time, and you mentioned the Huawei headwinds, but now you have some design wins coming up with a few European infrastructure suppliers, some gas win ceramic filtering. I guess with these design wins in place, and presumably really a lot -- this is really a business that's on the come. How should we think about the dollar content opportunities when you compare 5G infrastructure versus 4G?

Yes, yes. Again, 5G infrastructure is much more complex. You're dealing with very unique antenna arrays and systems, MIMO-based solutions and even some ceramic-based solutions that we have in-house as well that we use primarily for military markets. So there's a lot of complex pieces on the infrastructure side. And then if you actually -- if the millimeter wave rolls out, there'll be another potential opportunity there with kind of small cell applications that we can play in. So we're in those markets. We're seeing a little bit more upside now from Nokia and Ericsson given some of the challenges with the leading China player. But the infrastructure market has been kind of dormant for a while, and I think it's starting to show some life. It needs to show some life as we start to roll out 5G.

And I guess, another, I guess, pillar of broad markets and you've discussed maybe the acquisition last year. I was hoping you could provide an update on Avnera. At the time of the acquisition, we -- JPMorgan had speculated it could maybe reach around $100 million of revenue by 2019-2020 time frame. Can you give us a sense of where the revenue run rate is growing and maybe the effect you've had in the business in terms of sales channel and bringing those products to markets as well? And maybe you could just -- maybe not everyone remembers Avnera, but just a bit about the business as well.

Yes. So Avnera is a play on audio and voice. And one of the reasons why we gravitated to this deal is we're a company about wireless interface. And we're seeing more and more that voice is becoming a connector. It is becoming an interface. If you have a CarPlay application or even one of the smart speakers, you realize that voice is a big deal and synthesizing voice and getting it right and being able to discern whose voice it is. I mean even some of the financial companies are using verbal pass codes. So we think that the market -- the voice and audio markets are very strategic markets that have a great long-term upside. What we liked about the Avnera deal and what we still like about it is, is that there's core technology, but there's still some stuff around the edges that we can provide, the manufacturing capabilities, integration capabilities, trying to bring together more complex systems. So we're moving that technology from a high-powered kind of single-chip base to a systems level solution. So that's what we've been working on over the last year or so, really thinking long, not about what's the quarter going to be in a small acquisition, but how do we create a business given this great technology that we see. And we do believe voice as an interface is a big deal. So we've been working with higher-quality customers, higher-class customers engaging in ways that are not chip in the box, kind of following the same playbook that we've used in mobile, right? Not doing discretes but doing SkyOne, going from SkyOne to Sky5. So that's where we are. So we're doing well. The margins are very good in that business. But there's a lot of room for us to move on that. And we're pumped about it. It's a fun -- it's a real fun company to work with. And I'm glad to have them under our umbrella, and we look forward to a lot of growth.

Yes. No. And that was a nice little addition to the broad markets business. I mean you've mentioned earlier, investing in factories. Obviously, you have a lot of capacity that you built up. Last year, in addition to that, you actually had very strong capital returns, great free cash flow generating company in general. I guess, just if you look at like the Avnera was a good acquisition. But in the past, you've taken a pretty disciplined approach to M&A. I guess, can you remind us the key elements where you look at for an acquisition target? Is there anything within, let's say, mobile, you don't possess, you would want, or for example, more focus on non-mobile? With the cash generation that you have, like, what would you look at if you were to try to acquire additional assets?

Yes. Now that's a great question. We are very disciplined financially. That's the culture of our company. And I think we've done -- again, there's no end to how well you could do. We want to continue to improve, but we put up some really good numbers, even in a tough year, 2019, if you look at free cash flow and if you look at some of the key metrics or even EBITDA margin on that. But if we start to think about strategic ideas, we have a pretty wide aperture, quite frankly. We can look at diversification. We can look at consolidation, depends on where the situation may be. I'm very happy with the organic outlook that's in front of us right now that we haven't captured yet, but it's on the way. We're working on it and some of the opportunities around the edges that we have with new technologies within our organic business. But we have the powder, and we have the muscle to do a transaction when the right opportunity comes our way. But again, we're going to be disciplined. We're not going to be speculative. We don't need to do it for growth. But if the right strategic opportunity arises, we could certainly capitalize.

It means that you have a stated goal to return 70% of cash. I mean you've actually exceeded that.

We've exceeded it. We've exceeded with buybacks and dividends. Yes. Absolutely.

Should we expect that to continue in the meantime? And like what -- I mean what's the best way to think about it as we look out with the strong cash generation?

Yes. I mean we'll continue to -- again, we can't predict. But it's more than likely that the dividend will continue to increase. And we still have plenty of powder on our authorization for buybacks, so we're in good shape on both ends.

I want to kind of move to gross margins. You guys have been pretty steadily making progress. And last year, we had some utilization revenue impacts. We've had -- there's a lot of things that have taken down gross margins to be below your 53% target. You guys have talked about that. That's still the goal. At the midpoint of guidance, gross margins would be down about 100 basis points year-on-year, and there's some revenue impacts there. I presume there's product customer mix as well and lower overall sales. But you did achieve over 50% or greater, 51% or greater in the second half of '19 when the broad market was growing at double-digit pace. Assuming broad markets continue -- returns to such growth and the top line improves as well, can you just kind of expand on what it would take to get you back to that 53% target and maybe when investors can expect that could be a reasonable time frame?

Yes, yes. Well, 2019 was a tough year. I mentioned it already, no excuses. It is what it is, and our numbers are what they were. We're in a new year now. So yes, we were impacted in 2019 by loss of revenue. Some of it was the market itself and some of it was a specific issue with one customer. So we had to weather through that. While that was going on, we were more efficient in our operations side, more disciplined in the kind of capital we want to put, positioning the company to succeed when the market turns. And the market is turning now. So we've got a couple of things. You've got -- the lack of the headwind that we had in 2019 and the utilization impact of that going away. And then we also have these new markets that we talked about. These markets are difficult. There's not going to be 20 competitors fighting over this business. This is going to be -- 5G I think is a market where you have a smaller set of peers, not just Skyworks. We want to lead, but there'll be a few others that are doing some incredibly difficult things to really move the needle in 5G and to catalyze all the stuff that I've been talking about, whether it's IoT, whether it's smartphones, industrial, consumer, all these other things that are coming through in a wireless world, we're going to produce, but it's going to be harder to do. And again, that's going to narrow down the playing field. And for those that can make that leap and those that can make the investments, too, in the technologies, I think those are the companies that will be rewarded with margin, and we'll be among that group.

Any questions, last-minute questions, from the audience? We've got one right here.

You mentioned your integration ability is relative to, say, peers and how you're a great integrator of different -- the different RF components that are going to a phone. I was just wondering, in terms of 5G, those modules, what kind of areas are you aiming to target most, whether it's mid- to high-band, low-band, ultra high-band? Do you see more opportunity and say, diversity receive? And then how does that actually play in for the components which you've been putting money into developing such as your new BAW. What's the uptake by the new BAW, your TC SAW and how that compares with the playing field out there?

So all of the technologies that you mentioned, every one, we have today. Now some are at varying stages of maturity. So we have a highly mature, I would say, if you go anywhere through the low-band to the mid-band, very, very highly mature, high-share, honed-in business that, again, is an element to a system solution. So just maybe to back up. We don't sell filters discretely. We just don't do it. We take our devices, we integrate them. And oftentimes, a Sky5 platform could have 3 to 4 different types of filters, could have a bulk acoustic wave filter, could have a low frequency TC SAW, could have a GPS filter. All of these things can be integrated together. But if you look at the core technologies, we've got the furthest road to go in BAW, although we're breaking in and we're winning now. We are by far the market leader in low-band transmit and in low-band DRx. We're the market leader in mid-band and high-band DRx, which we created that category, diversity receive. It's all about enhancing downlink data, and we think about the richness of communication today. Joking around things like streaming media. Those are pretty hard to -- those are bandwidth eaters. And so the DRx technology, the diversity receive rapidly accelerates downlink speeds even in 5G. So we have all of the elements, but the thing that is unique is you can go through the peer group and say, "Okay, well, there's a company that has that filter better than you or there's one that can do that." That's all -- that could be true in some cases. But the customers don't want to buy a bunch of filters and a bunch of RF chips. They want a solution. So our game plan is to stay vigilant to that vision and that strategy, have the ability to play all the way through but also deliver it in an integrated way, end-to-end.

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Oh, yes. I mean we want everything. I mean there's no -- anything in the RF spectrum, we want to be a player in that space.

You can address the -- all the subsets and...

Yes. Absolutely, yes. But back to the comments I made at the beginning, it's not easy. As we get more and more complex, and we reach further out in spectrum, there's more challenge and there's more complexity. And then there's the integration challenge of having all of these devices coexisting in a form factor where we're all competing for current. So there's a lot of really interesting things, great problems for us to solve, and that translates into a greater customer experience, and we should get rewarded for that.

With that, we're out of time, but Liam, that was great. Thanks for coming to our tech forum and good luck in 2020.

Okay. Thank you all. Appreciate it.

Thank you. Thanks.