SS&C Technologies Holdings, Inc. (SSNC) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Thank you for joining me. I'm Andrew Schmidt on Citi's fintech research team with a focus on fintech software. It's my pleasure this morning to host SS&C. With us today, we have Brian Schell, who is the CFO of SS&C. Brian, thanks so much for joining us.

Great. Thank you for having me. Appreciate it.

So I think I always like to kick off for people in the audience -- some of the people in the audience are familiar with SS&C, but there's a lot of people who aren't. Maybe you could just provide an overview for people who are new or revisiting the name.

Sure. So I think I'd kind of lead off with some of our strengths of, well, who are we? We're not necessarily a retail brand name, so to speak, but the largest provider fund administration services to the hedge fund industry, to the PE industry, the largest mutual fund transfer agent as two of the -- it's probably in excess of -- it's probably close to $2.5 billion of the $5.5 billion roughly we have just in those two lines of business. And it's 85% is software-enabled services as a kind of as you think about the recurring revenue model. There's about 5% related to the health care vertical. Very high percentage of our revenue is repeating as we kind of think about what separates us. And I would say one of the key kind of differentiators and one of our competitive strengths is that owning that end-to-end technology solution from the front office to the back office and everything in between and owning that technology stack because not only do we license a lot of the software to some of our clients, but we use it, right? We use it for all of our clients. And so that learning and being able to control those changes is all part of it. So probably 27,000, roughly, people across 30 countries, I think, something like that. So we're pretty all over primarily U.S. as far as a revenue standpoint. Next, I would say, is probably the Europe and then with some -- quite a bit of sourcing done in India as well.

Got it. And you've been on the job for over six months now. I know when you came in, investors were very excited about you coming aboard. Maybe you talk about your biggest learning since you joined and what factors have either been different or the same versus your expectations?

Yes. I think about that in probably, I'll call it, three different buckets per se. And I would say the top line is the independent evaluation because I'm sure nobody is going to come in here and tell you that they're not valued highly. So I'll just leave that. So anyway. So if you look at the opportunity, I look at the revenue top line, and as we work through it, I think there still continues to be revenue opportunities. And I know sometimes it's hard to capture and do, but I think it's an opportunity for us. We haven't spent as much time on it, but I think we're starting to crack the case on it, is a real revenue synergy. As we look at some of our largest clients and you span across the different services we provide from the front, to the middle, to the end of the process and whether that be in the financial reporting and some of the health care solutions, some of the reconciliations, some of the robotic process automation. Everything along the way, there are services that after we look at these providers or these clients that we don't provide today, that are very natural for us to provide. And so I continue to be encouraged that, that's a big opportunity for us, and we've started to put more and more resources towards solving that, leveraging that as part of more of an integrated, I'll call it, sales approach and client service approach. And we can say, yes, we can do that, but also then that leads to my next point is, I'll call it, efficiencies, right? There is some technology efficiencies as we look at the code, we look at some of the ability to make it more seamless between some of our products. Now again, that's a longer-term nature that has significant long-term benefits from a sourcing of your staffing as well as efficiency overall and retention. So I think there's an opportunity there. Also on the, I'll call it, even our own back office, opportunity to make things more standard and consistent that are underlying it. So I see a lot of that revenue opportunity synergies. I see the back-office/cost opportunities and then the third element of that is the efficiency and it's, again, more longer term. We've seen some of the benefits of some of the digital workers that we have put into place, and I see that continuing to create capacity for us longer term and helping to facilitate margin growth and still also allow incremental investment to grow the top line.

Got it. Super helpful. And you answered my next question, which is broader organizational changes and you alluded to some of your own back office kind of FP&A changes in there as well?

Correct. So that's part of the -- I'll call it, some of the things that we're doing is enabling that business to be able to react a little sooner.

Right.

I think we've always been very tight on some, I'll call it, the accounting controls and processes. This is more about how do we take a look at it and kind of build that, I'll call it, decision support infrastructure with the data and make it as much real time as we can to really enable some of the sales or some of the pricing to take a look at, "Actually, you can make this pricing investment per se, because the cost of that revenue might be this", or "Hey, you actually don't have to go that high or actually, we need to go higher because that's not profitable revenue for us."

Right. So more organizational intelligence, sharing of data across the platform, really integrating kind of the information that you have?

Correct. It's not sexy, but it's literally it's -- and it takes a little bit of time to build, but it can be very powerful.

What do you -- so what is it -- if I take it just one step down, what does it take to get there? Is it a systems issue? Is it an organizational question? To really -- because it sounds simple, but obviously, integrating data across the organization and making better decision based on that is nontrivial?

Correct. So I would say there's a couple -- it is both. So there is a -- I would say, a talent pool mindset that there are people that specialize in doing this organizations and how do you create a -- not just a CRM system and say, "Go, figure it out." There are people who actually do this, and here's how you can make it tangible to actually make a part of your sales process. The other part is even on the -- I'll call it, even the general ledger, right? So we are not consistently on, for example, Workday, which is where our primary and we're moving to. So that data flow, whether it's coming from some of our billing engines, from the pricing engines, making that consistency and allowing that to flow in a consistent manner, I think, helps enable that data and feed in a similar connection and data format into more of a BI tool.

Got it. Super helpful. And I don't think it's an area that's well understood, so I appreciate that. Maybe we could just briefly turn to the outlook and get that out of the way for FY '24. I think investors were pleasantly surprised with the organic revenue growth for FY '24. But, you know, some questions around visibility. Maybe we could just disaggregate this into top and bottom line expectations. I think starting with top line, maybe at a high level, could we just walk through the major businesses and expectations for 2024? And anything you could share on underlying drivers?

Yes, sure. So if we look at where did we see the strong revenue growth just coming out of '23 4Q. And you start, obviously, some of the top of the list items, you see the strength in the Intralinks business. We continue to see that double-digit growth rate opportunity into '24, right? There's a lot of positive things that was doing, and I see a lot of organic growth there from, I think there's increasing behind the scenes, a lot of M&A activity that's supporting that growth, even though we haven't seen a lot of prints of here's what this deal occurred, particularly the current administration. But anyway, so there's a lot behind the scenes that are going on. And so we see the strength of Intralinks. We've seen a double-digit increase we saw with Blue Prism. So we would continue to expect to see a high single digit, low double-digit growth rate coming out of Blue Prism with the intelligent automation with RPA. We continue to see some of the strength coming out of the Alts business, right? With [ particularly ] being driven by the private markets as that continues to grow. I would say the other thing that's helping is the -- some of our more traditional licensing business, I think, is poised to continue to grow as we look at that cycle. And I think we have fewer negatives, honestly. I think we saw the health care business still with poor results as a result of some client losses that were announced a few years ago and some of that trailing revenue stream from a comp perspective. So that feels to have bottomed out as well. So you just have fewer negatives also that's coming in. And that was a bit of the issue with some of the licensing business that happened in '23 that '22 was very, very strong from that standpoint. So overcoming some of that, putting that in place sets us up nicely for a positive trajectory for a higher organic revenue growth rate in '24 than '23.

Yes. No, that makes sense with health care trending or stabilizing, and then, of course, GIDS or DST sort of growing as well, which is great. Maybe we just think about just the range of outcomes, top and bottom of the sort of the revenue outlook.

Sure.

So what drives the top end versus the bottom end? And I think -- question I think that people ask is what level -- and this ties into the visibility question, maybe you can comment on this, but what are the recurring revenue assumptions versus license revenue or periodic [ share ] if it's embedded?

Yes. So the -- part of it is a little bit of math, I'll say, and is that an increasing part of our top line is software-enabled services. And we know that second line of the licensing and professional fees is chunky, as we know, and can be gauged or the revenue recognition from 606 requires the reporting to some extent on some of those items. And the -- it's great revenue, don't get me wrong, love it, it's -- we want to get that sale in. But the comparability, and if I can perfectly structure a new contract or a new renewal perfectly over the 4 quarters for the next 5 years, that's great. But unfortunately, that's not the way it happens. And sometimes you have chunkier years. '22 was really strong and '23 had less of that so you have a bit of a comp issue. But given that is a smaller part of the overall top line, that should have less variance. And so that's why we I feel a little bit better about that, that overall growth rate because we have a lot more visibility for that more recurring nature of the top line, of the software-enabled services and how that looks. And so that's part of some of that, I'll call it, visibility to it. And the -- as we look at -- but if you look at that second line on the licensing, there are a lot of renewal opportunities coming into '24, more so than '23. And I think that will help drive some of the higher than lower to your point of what makes you have to hit the lower end or higher end of that range? I think we have -- when we went through our overall forecasting process and we look at it and establishing targets for folks, we look at what we know has already occurred as far as our baseline. And we look at those high confidence, medium confidence, and low confidence -- lower confidence opportunities, and I think we continue to tighten those ranges around it. And that kind of what led us to be able to put out the growth rates that we did.

Great. And this sort of -- where you started in terms of using data better to form decisions. Has that filtered into the outlook at all? Or is that still a little bit earlier?

That's still part of -- that's part of the outlook, and I think that we will continue to refine. And as we set, I'll call it, a parameter or a framework to help, I'll say, inform some of that forecasting process. And you can never necessarily factor in, of course, all macro events by any means. But on the further out, obviously, the more uncertainty there is, but collecting that data now, trying to establish that framework and building that over time, hopefully, we'll continue to improve that forecasting process.

Okay. Very helpful. And then before we get into sales cycle and some of the more meaty segment level detail, just on margins and expenses. I think there's a lot of optimism around obviously RPA and the benefits that it can bring from a productivity perspective. But maybe we could disaggregate sort of at least the way the current outlook is set up between savings from digital workers in general -- there's other areas of efficiency, not just digital workers, and then also a level of reinvestment that's currently assumed.

Yes. So the digital worker, it's a real thing. To quote [ Jamie Damian ] like AI is a real thing. And so we've seen that improvement. We've seen our -- particularly our larger, I'll call it, like the GIDS, fund administration that use a lot of concentrated labor around certain processes and being able to digitize that, so to speak, as far as the repeatability and the consistency around reconciliation, reporting, compliance reporting. There is an immediate win. Once you program it, get it in, you just need less labor at the end of the day. I'd say -- and that fell into the bottom line. I really think that helped drive some of the margins. Now I think we had a little bit of conflicting noise with that, with some of our health care costs, some of our litigation costs that ate into some of that margin benefit, large organizations, that happens. And let's hope we can manage that and that's less of the case. I'd say the next phase of that, we continue to see that benefit, and that's not necessarily going away, but the next phase of the digital worker, to your point, is we see that creating more capacity and it may not be an immediate head count elimination per se, but it does create more capacity that I may not have to go out and hire the next person as quickly to support incremental client service or revenue growth. And so over time, that should help build that margin expansion. And I don't see it -- and you've seen it in our guidance, we're trying to be conservative. We're not baking it in '24, but we do think it exists for longer term because I think it's the next phase, is building that capacity. And I think it's a step function even as we introduce in our own, I'll call it, finance back office, right? We can improve processes from three days down to two hours. It doesn't mean that person's job goes away. It just like is, as you can continue to build those, they get more capacity to do some other things or I don't have to hire the next person. So that takes a little bit of time to build those processes on and then you really start seeing the margin expansion.

I'd say that's very helpful. So it's more about kind of multiyear path sort of built-in capacity this year. Obviously, there's a benefit this year, but it builds over time?

Yes. And so we went after the low-hanging fruit right away. We saw that benefit. We still think there's opportunity to drive some margin. It just may not be as significant early on, but I think it continues to build.

And then I think one thing you mentioned on the earnings calls, there is some reinvestment this year. Maybe you could talk about the -- and some of that I think you alluded to in terms of capacity, but the -- maybe the areas of reinvestment and the flexibility associated with those areas. I think some of it is, for lack of a better word, discretionary?

It is. Absolutely, and that's part of the -- when you work with the Board and their contingency planning, was it look like say, go, what if things don't go the way that you expect them to go and what would you do? And so it's obviously it's all around the discretionary, right? So we look at -- here's our, I'll call it for lack of a better word, our R&D spend around product improvements around some of our incremental sales efforts, not as much around the marketing dollar per se. It was like, "Oh, I'm going to kill that Super Bowl ad." That's not the space that we play in, but more around some of those -- the efforts around the incremental people. So I think it's going to be around the people and the technology spend and the projects that we have and how many of those enhancement projects are we going to take on now that as many in the room know, you have to commit to that investment spend before you actually receive the dollars and that takes some level of confidence. And the increasing level of confidence that some of that revenue generates allows you to reinvest in that investment spend to drive revenues in '25, '26 and '27. So it's primarily around the technology spend and that product innovation and what we're seeing. You've seen a commitment, for example, to Domani, right? So as far as the health care side and what we've done there. But we have equally high spend in what we're doing around GIDS, around the Alts business and being able to really facilitate some of the growth rates that are going on there.

I want to get to GIDS and Alts in a second, but just maybe at a higher level, and this is difficult because it's very aggregate, just sales cycles, pipelines, things like that. How have those been trending recently?

So I think we feel good about our pipeline. I think you heard Bill start to talk about this on the earnings call, probably going back to the 3Q earnings call, that we're starting to feel a little bit more confident and we're seeing more there. I think in [indiscernible] of '23, we did see the cycle lengthen a bit. And so I think we're feeling better that maybe that's tightening a little bit. Again, going back to the math, it's a little less critical to -- certainly on the sale -- on the licensing business because it's a smaller part of the business, still material. And we feel good about the pipeline for '24. There's more renewals that we see that we feel good about. We tend to do better on renewals per se. And so that looks better in '24, say, than 23%, similar to maybe what a '22 kind of look like. And I think with -- there's obviously still uncertainty, but I think the uncertainty has probably narrowed to some extent. I don't think people are -- the uncertainty is more around, well, rates are going to fall, but do they fall 5 rate cuts or is down to 2, but it's -- at least there's a direction there. But it feels like there's more caps as an example of -- I think maybe we're through. We're not sure exactly when it happens, but people, I think, are feeling better about where we stand. So that level certainly helps us and I'm sure which we can cover, which is positive across the board as far as the businesses, whether it's fund creation, all along the way [indiscernible] ability to support new revenue growth.

Got it. Good segue into talking about the Alts business, which is a nice growth driver. Maybe talk about just where we're at in terms of hedge funds, private markets, real assets? Maybe starting with hedge funds, obviously, back office has been pretty good opportunity over time. That's fairly well penetrated, and then we move into middle office. Maybe there's some front-office opportunities in some of the smaller funds. But I think, generally speaking, what -- is it existing client growth, fund launches? Is it penetration? Can we talk about the hedge fund business for a minute?

Yes. I would say it's, I'll call it, all three as far as where that goes, right? So we are seeing some fund launches. And a lot of times, those fund launches are within the already larger, I'll call it, fund complexes. And that's where we will do very well, right? Where -- and could it could be a slightly different asset class that this -- their offerings become kind of across the board and only a few, maybe only one, can actually provide the complexity of those large managers and keep it all consistent within their systems and they can get leveraged internally as well. So we like it when it happens there because that's kind of our sweet spot. And so we're seeing the fund launches within the complex funds, the private market [ PE ] continues to expand, particularly on the private credit as well. And that's just been a pure -- more launches. I mean that's just -- that is new firms as well as existing firms deciding they want to be in it and then just the pure growth of the funds that are already in it, the expansion, because of the opportunity that's there. So it's been kind of across the board. And then the last thing I'll say is that we look at different opportunities. We do see firms wanting us to outsource it completely as well as they move into it as they're seeing their margins compress, their cost compress. If it's a point of parity, why would you do it internally? Let's go to scale. Let's go to someone like SS&C and outsource that to them, lift it out and let us manage it, call it at a lower cost than they might be able to do on their own.

Super helpful. And I also think there's some optimism around that, as you mentioned, kind of private credit and I think you alluded to this. But are you seeing that show up today in terms of fund launches, asset gathering and things like that in terms of the clients you serve?

Yes. We're still seeing that the largest percentage growth driver within the business continues to be very strong.

Fantastic. Maybe we can move on to GIDS. I think a pleasant surprise has been the stabilization of that business. Maybe talk about what's driven the stabilization and the visibility from here? Because I think to your point, that flipped from a negative stabilization and now to perhaps a positive going forward. Maybe talk about [indiscernible].

I think that it's been happening over time, right? I think we got the strengthening of the Leadership Team. I think, a little bit more of a sales focus and I think where we've seen some of the strength has -- continued to come from is, I think the U.S. market has been -- if you think about the TAM, hasn't really expanded. So it's hard if you're not necessarily rising with a tide there, so you need to try to create market share, and that's almost been -- almost a headwind. And I think where we've seen the winds come and the growth come has been internationally, right? So we announced one of the superannuation funds in Australia. We did a nice big -- some work out of South Africa. So we continue to see wins outside the U.S. is helping to drive that international growth. So that's where we've kind of seen much stronger growth rate, a smaller part of the business, but a nice benefit as we continue to expand in Australia and other APAC regions. So I would say that's call for that stabilization, we'll call it. The fourth quarter was aided by some special work that we don't necessarily expect to repeat. Could that type of revenue occur in the future? It could, as we build up that, I'll call it consulting type of skill, but that's not necessarily how we're kind of building our growth rate to guidance.

Not the baseline assumption, right? Less recurring revenue portion?

Right.

Got it. Okay. Maybe if we -- you answered that question on special project revenue, thank you. I didn't think it was going to come. Yes, that's good. So on Intralinks, I mean that was a standout, I think it was 90% growth in the fourth quarter, pretty stand out. Some of that is M&A volumes, as you alluded to, but another piece is kind of other products that have been building out, private equity communication portal and things like that. So how much is sort of M&A volume versus growth in other businesses?

It's still primarily going to be M&A volume, but it goes back to the incremental services also within that is -- and here's where it's actually a real case of using AI, is we've been able to offer the service of being able to go in and summarize documents at a high degree and based on the level of detail before people want to dig in, right? Because these data rooms and the amount of complexity are going in. So there are some real strong tools that are starting to gain some traction. The point about the, I'll call it, the PE firms and other people using it, that goes back to the initial grid that I talked about as far as the cross-sell opportunity, right? Cross-sell sounds hard. But in a way, you're like, well, you PE firm need this service. We have a solution right here. So just making that happen, making that now, making that aware, it's there. It's not a stretch, right? You're servicing this, but why do I have to go to here to get it done, right? It's something that's a natural lift that we're seeing. So we're excited about that opportunity, but it's still being driven by the M&A side.

Got it. You mentioned an interesting thing, which is obviously the application of AI to deal documents. Good way to slip that technology in there. Just great. You got to highlight it?

That's right.

So can you talk a little bit more about that more broadly? Is that basically, I have a deal document, and I have some technology that can sort of produce the document and basically summarize key points, things like that, which can obviously save a lot of time?

It can save a lot of time and then allows a person where they want to focus, right? As they can summarize, you are going to have some senior people being able to see the key points. You can then say, here -- I want to dig here, you can flag issues that you're highly concerned about, either from a regulatory compliance or legal perspective that may not have surfaced that might be buried. It's there technically that I think that helps. And so that cuts down your costs significantly of having to go in and everybody read every single thing and maybe someone is falling asleep at 11:00 at night or 1:00 a.m. and they're like, "Oh, I just kind of missed that section, Yes, I covered it." So we know those type of things can be really beneficial for people to dig in. And you can also use it as the supplier side of maybe you -- maybe want to start redacting some things as well as far as some of the items that are there and before it goes into it, that may be off-limits. So all of those things, we're seeing some nice elements to it.

That's awesome. I appreciate that product level detail. That's great. Maybe dig into health care a little bit because I do get a lot of questions, not a huge portion of the business, but it has been a drag over the last year or two. How should we think about the revenue trajectory this year? Is this more of a stabilization year? Are there opportunities for growth? Obviously, DomaniRx is a big opportunity. [ 2025 ] beyond, I think there's a question mark around 2024 trajectory?

Yes. I consider it more of a flattish year. And as we've -- I'll call it kind of -- I'll call it a bottoming out as we are stabilizing, I think is the right word that we kind of think about it, right? I think there are growth opportunities. I don't believe it shows up in revenues as much in '24 because you're building the book and a lot of times onboarding some of the major, major clients takes time, right? You get the commitment, but it doesn't mean it shows up in revenues. So I do hope that it's a proverbial balancing off of '24 with an upward trajectory. I think Domani is one of those core platforms that it had to get done. Platform conversion is never a lot of fun, but it's gone extremely well. We continue to onboard clients. It's not a revenue growth because it's revenue that already exists from the other platform, but the performance continues to do very well. And I think there's a lot of noise right now that's going on with pharmacy platforms that's in the news. I believe that an independent system like ours can be very well strategically positioned to help facilitate, maybe, some concerns that exist out there. So we -- like I said, we're still excited about it. It's just not something I can point to in '24 and say that's going to be a double-digit revenue growth driver.

Understood. Maybe before we go higher level in terms of longer-term revenue margin, I'll go just talk about Blue Prism. I think the long-term target for that business historically have been double digits. Fourth quarter, did decel a little bit. Is there -- maybe just a question about demand and financial versus nonfinancial verticals? Is there enterprise distraction in terms of maybe AI versus RPA. Talk about just what drove that growth and how do you see demand trending?

Yes. We haven't seen necessarily that change. I don't know if it's just -- it's, like I said, the high single digit, low double digits. So I think you're getting the cusp of that 10% range. So it's like, is it that much of a difference? And the base is growing. So sometimes just the incremental revenue, obviously, math hasn't caught up as much as maybe what the earlier growth rate was, but it still continues to grow. So we're still seeing demand. We're still seeing the implementation. Our next wave is, is -- we think about intelligent automation is continuing to add the larger data set learning elements to RPA and some of the AI elements to it. So we still think there's going to be continue to be demand. We're still a big user of it. We're still expanding our use of it within SS&C internally. So we still think it's there. But like I said, some of the work that we did in 4Q, we think will help build for 2024 to bounce off of the 8.6% growth rate in the fourth quarter.

Perfect. Okay. Yes, look, I agree. I think it's intelligent decisioning, which has elements of AI, obviously, as well. It's not just plain RPA and robotic processing, [indiscernible]?

Correct.

Yes. Got it. Cool. Maybe just thinking about revenue algorithm. I know SS&C in the past has talked about kind of a mid-single-digit revenue trajectory, which is roughly where the midpoint is kind of at the lower end. Are there any gating factors in your view if you think about just a bottoms-up analysis of the business? Are there gating factors to growing consistently at that mid-single-digit revenue growth range?

No, I don't think so. I mean particularly as we -- more and more of the revenues are concentrated into that software-enabled services, it's a positive and a negative. It sometimes may be a little harder to bump the acceleration from -- whatever from, call it, that midrange to 10% in any one year because of the size and if that's the business we get, revenue recognition doesn't quite happen that way. There could be hundreds of million dollars deal contracts, but that's not necessarily which gets realized depending on how the service that we're providing. So no, I just think it's a nice kind of build as we move forward. So, yes.

Same question on margins. I know I asked this on the earnings call, but just view on longer term margins, obviously, 40% had kind of been the -- not the sort of the unofficial kind of ceiling. How do you think about the scale in the business over time, especially as you kind of start to grow revenues more meaningfully?

Yes. I don't see that as the ceiling, I'll be honest. I believe that, particularly in some different lines that we're in, maybe some of the more competitive lines, it might be, just because you may not be able to price X, Y and Z to be able to get that incrementally. But more broadly in some of where the growth that we're seeing and like I said, longer term, the use of the digital worker and not needing the 5 extra people for the next $1 million of revenue, is -- I see no reason why we can't continue to get margin on the incremental revenue that's exceeding that gets there, right? I think we have been intentionally reinvesting some of that to drive that. I believe it's best for us to build long-term shareholder value, is getting that longer-term revenue growth rate.

Yes. No, I would agree. Maybe a closeout question. No conversation is complete without a capital allocation question. So I guess just on the M&A environment, I think, Bill, it did seem like on the fourth quarter call, expressed a little more optimism around the deal pipeline. He mentioned things like fund administration opportunities, maybe even a lift out. Is there anything you can talk about in terms of just how you're thinking about M&A pipeline opportunities that you see?

Yes. I mean I think M&A has always been, I'll call it, the forefront of helping to drive, I guess I had mentioned it again, the shareholder value at the end of the day. And if I can drive that incremental growth engine through M&A, we would value that, right? But it's going to be the right price. I think Bill has shown a lot of discipline around not overpaying and seeing an opportunity to grow the revenues and the earnings side of that as part of the SS&C franchise. So that will always be something that's going to be on our radar that we won't hesitate to explore. I think he was more positive on it because not necessary that we're getting ready to announce a deal tomorrow, it's that -- I think we're starting to see valuations come down that have been more reasonable from our perspective necessarily than here's what our pipeline looks. So as we continue to remain disciplined around price and opportunity and make it strategic, I think that's where you hear the excitement.

And based on our conversations yesterday, I think a lot of people are hoping for a target-rich environment in 2024, but we'll see if that plays out?

Right.

Well, thank you, everyone, for joining. Thank you, Brian. It's been a great conversation.

Great. Thank you.

Thank you for staying with us.