St. James's Place plc (STJ) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Hello, everyone, and welcome to the St. James's Place 2021 Full Year Results Q&A session. My name is Nadia, and I will be coordinating the call today. [Operator Instructions] I will now hand over to your host, Andrew Croft, CEO of St. James's Place to begin. Andrew, please go ahead.

Yes. Morning, everyone, and thank you for taking the time to join us this morning. I hope you had an opportunity to look at the prerecorded webcast. I'm joined here today with the majority of my executive team. But before going straight into questions, a brief sort of summary of the results. Now clearly, the strong flows announced in January fed through to the strong financial result. I guess the 2 key highlights is a 50% increase in the underlying cash result, which has driven the 34% increase in the full year dividend. I mean, naturally, we are very, very pleased with that outcome, and it's a great start to our 2025 stretching financial targets. So at that point, I think we're just going to open up to questions. Back to you, Nadia.

[Operator Instructions] And our first question today comes from Andrew Sinclair of Bank of America.

Tough day for an asset gatherer to be reporting, but well done, overall. So another good year. Three for me as usual, if that's okay. Firstly, it was just on 5% cost growth target that you've reiterated. Good to see your confidence in delivering that, but we are in a backdrop of higher inflation. Just really wondered if you could give us some more detail on whether you found extra levers to pull to keep that target on track kind of what are the moving parts as inflation has gone higher? Secondly, I think I picked up in the video, you said about some normalization of regular withdrawals. Just really, how would you think about a normal level? I think that's been anywhere between about 1.5% and 2.5% of opening AUM over the last decade. Just helpful to get your insight on that normal level? And thirdly, just on gross flow growth. I realize if you commented on confidence in the ability to hit the 5-year target. But if we can look at 2022 for a moment, consensus, I think, is sitting around 7% gross -- in gross flows for 2022. That's still a pretty good number, given such a strong year in 2021. Really just to gauge fully if you're comfortable with consensus sitting around that level?

Okay. Thank you, Andrew, and morning to you. I'll just pick up the gross flow number before handing over to Craig to do the costs and retention. As you say, at the moment, the consensus of gross flows is at 7%. And we are very confident at this stage that we can meet those expectations, which, of course, will mean that 7% on top of 27% will still put us well ahead of where we expected to be this time last year when we announced those targets. So very confident in achieving the consensus numbers. I'm just going to hand over to Craig to do the inflation and normalization withdrawals.

Yes. Andy, yes, the question was our degree of confidence. So the degree of confidence is high. We've got a budget for 2022. It's locked and loaded as they say, and it's fully costed. And a lot of what we have is actually -- it lends itself to the sort of planning that you need in order to have that level of confidence. So for the avoidance of doubt, we are committing to a 5% containment in the growth in controllable costs. And you're right, there are some inflationary pressures, but it's worth noting that the 5% for us is a net figure. And as we continue to invest in the business, we find alternative ways of doing things. We find smarter processes. We can make better use of technology. And so there is some netting and grossing going on here, which allows us to contain it to the sort of number you see whilst also maintaining that ongoing investment in the business. So hopefully, that deals with the question on 5%. Yes, the normalization -- it's very difficult to put a precise figure on it. But if you look at the pattern of withdrawals over the last couple of years, they have been very heavily influenced by the environment that we've been in. And in the same way that we've sort of benefited from that environment because people keep their savings with us. It's likely that as that environment normalizes, people will take advantage of, let's call them, spending opportunities that perhaps might not have been there during the course of 2020 and '21. So we're not expecting any kind of sharp change here. We're really just drawing attention to the facts, and we've been, I think, clear about this. So over the last couple of years that retention has been quite extraordinary during the course of 2020 and '21. Now what should you include? I don't know you could go back to 2019, and you might regard 2019 as a typical year. I'm not going to put a figure on it, but it's really just a reflection of that extraordinary retention that we've benefited from over the last 2 years.

If we could do the next question, please Nadia.

And our next question comes from David McCann of Numis.

Reiterate the big comments on -- from Andy on the results, they were very good. Actually, Andy, largely stole the question I had on inflation as well. But I just wanted to dig into that a little bit more. I mean, obviously, when you set that 5% cost growth target last year, presumably you weren't expecting the current kind of level of background inflation. So I'd just like to understand what was in your kind of modeling when you -- for inflation when you set that target? And presumably, if we had 2%, 3%, 4% inflation over the whole 5-year period, presumably, you're okay with your number. I just want to understand kind of where the sensitivity -- if we did have real breakout inflation over the whole 5-year period, at what level does that 5% number come under a bit of pressure? I guess that's the first question. And then, yes, second question, but of less significance, I guess, but I noticed you appeared to have made a small investment in an associate in the period. Can you just give us some detail on what that is?

Okay. I'll ask Craig to talk about the inflation point, first.

Yes. David, so you talked about inflation rates of 2%, 3%, 4%. And of course, there's no single figure because one of the things we had to do when we were laying down the 2025 plan is think about individual sensitivities within our cost base. So just to throw a few out there, we are exposed, always have been, always will be to professional wage inflation and professional wage inflation behaves differently to, let's say, overarching wage inflation. We've got a pretty big property base. Now that's not necessarily exposed to inflation because we're locked into longer-term leases there. And the list goes on. We've got long-term contracts that have inflation clauses within them. So there's no particular number that we included within the planning. But if you were to think of it in terms of 2%, 3%, 4%, I don't think you'd be 1 million miles away. The question as to at what point does it begin to influence our judgment on what the right level would be in a future period? I think that would depend on where it's biting. And an obvious one to call out would be wage inflation. We don't really know what's going to happen to that over the medium term. I've said we've committed to 2022. But if we found that we were in a long-term cycle of high inflation, we would have to update on our plans accordingly when that becomes clear. But other than that, it's very difficult to be specific because it really would depend on where that inflation looks as if it's going to buy it. The one thing I would say is that I go back to my net and gross points in the answer I gave before, which means that whilst we should think of it in terms of 5%, it is critical that we also think of it in terms of a net figure. So there are other opportunities that we can and will take as time goes on to just improve efficiency within the business, which will help us in an inflationary environment. So I think that is something we should have in mind.

And on the small associates, what we do from time to time would be to buy into some of our larger businesses. And I would imagine that's what you're seeing going through that line. Could we go to the next set of questions, please Nadia? And David, thank you for only asking 2 rather than 3, most unusual.

And our next question comes from Andrew Baker of Citi.

And unfortunately, I'm going to let you down. I'm going to ask 3. So I guess the first on the 2022 gross flows. So you mentioned in your presentation that Q1, in particular, was a tough comparator. So are you able to give an update on what you've seen actually year-to-date? And then does this mean that we should expect lower Q1 growth and then sort of a catch up later in the year? And then secondly, again on inflation but this time on potential impact to flows. I guess, on the one hand, you have sort of the opportunity cost, particularly on cash is now a lot higher than on the other discretionary income could potentially be lower. So just interested in your thoughts on any impact on flows? And then third, just what impact are you expecting from the FCA's work on Q2, the new consumer Q2 which is currently under consultation so any thoughts there would also be appreciated.

Craig, do you want to pick up the 2022 flow question first?

Yes. The tough comparators just to bring that to life a little bit, comparators are quite challenging over the last couple of years because of the number of external things that have influenced people's behavior. I don't think we're the only business that would say that. I think if you go into -- to the extent we can see it, if you go into -- if I could think about the models that we have access to that the outside world is preparing, you do tend to see that whilst consensus is showing growth of 7% that growth is loaded into Q2, 3 and 4 rather than Q1. And there's a good reason for it. Q1 of '21 was an extraordinary quarter. And it's also worth having in mind that it was an extraordinary quarter on top of another extraordinary quarter because Q1 of 2020 was also very strong because the pandemic hasn't bitten, and we were benefiting from the results of a highly conclusive general election. And I think what most people are taking into account is all of that and reaching of you that, that growth just in comparative terms will come about later rather than earlier. And I'll just pick up on the next 2. So look, inflation hasn't been a feature in the U.K. economy for some time now. I'm of an age where I can remember inflation and the impact of inflation on people's savings. So our advisers will be spending time with their clients at the moment taking about the impact the impact of inflation and ensuring that they've got the right strategies in place to mitigate its impact. On the consumer duty, so the FCA is looking to focus on improving client outcomes. We're very supportive of that, and that's at the heart of what we do. The main impact is going to be around formal reporting that will be required to show how we're delivering positive client outcomes. And of course, we're already doing that in the unit trust world if you like through the balance statements. It's clearly still a consultation but expected to come into being later this year. Nadia, should we move on to the next question, please?

Our next question comes from Louise Miles of Morgan Stanley.

I'll do 3 as well, please. My first one is on the competitive landscape for advice in the U.K. We saw another U.K. company announce its plans to launch further into the advice market this week. How well protected do you see your business from these market entrants? I think particularly given the uptake in fees for professional advisers can be particularly quite high. So just to get some color on that would be really helpful. And just a very quick one. Obviously, there's a lot of headlines on Russia this morning. Can you just remind us what your exposure is to Russia in your asset portfolio, if anything at all? And finally, I was listening to your solvency sensitivities in the Life business. And I noticed quite a big change in 2021 to the equity stress, the down stress. It's moved from a 10% reduction in equities, meaning there's no change in Solvency II, an increase in 11 percentage points now. Can you just explain what's driving that? Is it because of some hedging changes or something?

Okay. Yes. Thank you. I'll take the first one on competitive landscape. I'll ask Rob Gardner to talk about the Russian exposure and then come back to Craig on the sensitivities. Look, you would have heard or you all would have heard me say over the years that the Wealth and Savings market is large, it's continuing to grow, whilst at the same time, accessing advice for consumers is becoming more difficult because the scarcity of advisers, the so-called advice gap. So having more access to advice, positive for savers and certainly different people will want different offerings. As I said in the presentation earlier, SJP, we offer the full face-to-face financial advice. I remain very confident that, that is continuing to grow. And indeed, events today might help that grow as well. So we don't see any news that's come out this week that is impacting our 2025 ambitions. So hopefully that answers that one. Rob, do you want to just pick up the Russian exposure in our GBP 154 billion.

Yes. Laurie, Rob here. So as Andrew said, I think you've got to see this in the context of A, GBP 150 billion and B, over 13,000 underlying line items in that context on that exposure is de minimis.

And Craig sensitivities on Solvency II.

And I think the answer to that is the equity dampener is probably very close to its maximum at the moment because of the shape of equity markets, particularly those equities in the dampener basket under Solvency II. So any variation there is down to that, otherwise known as the asymmetric adjustment.

Nadia, should we move on to the next one.

Our next question comes from Enrico Bolzoni of JPMorgan.

Congratulations, very strong results. Just a couple of questions. So one is you mentioned the 350 recruit you currently have in the academy, well, students you already have in the academy. I just wanted to know how many of these 350 you expect to join St. James' Place adviser population this year? The second question was just on Asia and your DFM business. I know you said you're on track. I just wanted to know if you can give us a bit of extra color in terms of what's the path of progress you're seeing there? Do you see it as exponential? Or it's actually very linear or I just want to understand if we might be surprised at some point that maybe things evolve a bit faster than what you planned?

Okay. Yes. Thank you. Can I just make sure that we've understood the second question, first of all. I think you're asking some extra color on the path to profitability and what might...

Yes, that's right. That's right.

Yes. Okay. Cool. In which case, I will hand that over shortly to Iain Rayner. In terms of the 350 recruits in the academy, we would expect the vast majority, if not all of them, to join the partnership, partly over this year and partly over next year, depending upon where they are inside their training. And Iain, do you want to just pick up the Asia point.

Yes. Thank you. I think we gave a clear statement about our plans in Asia to 2025 at the Capital Markets Day last May. And that was around our kind of commitment to building this cash profitable business, GBP 5 billion asset under management business in Asia by 2025. And you asked about whether we see a kind of linear track on that or if there's anything going to be more exponential. And I think the sort of linear, both on the path to cash breakeven so profitability but also the growth in gross flows. So the figures that were in that presentation last May is still where we see the business tracking to 2025.

Thank you. Nadia should we -- next one. Thank you.

And our next question comes from Greg Simpson of BNP Paribas.

A few questions from my side. Just 3. The first is just the results in previous years, you used to have kind of an annual client survey and show responses on value for money and client advocacy. And I think the survey might have been discontinued, but I'm just wondering if you can share any color on how client views are evolving on these metrics. Second question is on investment performance. Again, can you provide any update here? I think there was a press article, just mentioning a few of the funds have struggled a little bit. I know a lot of clients tend to be in the kind of portfolios you have. And I guess thirdly, more broadly, the competitor who is planning an augmented device offering talks about using digital or robot advice with face-to-face and then maybe targeting investors who may be in the advice gap. I'm just wondering if you think SJP can maybe over time, service more clients who are perhaps maybe lower touch in terms of requirements and maybe leverage your own investments in technology and digital. Just how you're kind of thinking about that opportunity?

Okay. I'll pick up the annual client survey hand over to Bob on the investment performance and then probably back to me on the technology, but Ian Mackenzie might well help with what we're actually doing there. On the client surveys, what we've done is rather than have a snapshot once and done survey every year. We now do, let's call them, pulse surveys with clients throughout the year. And in the main body of the report and accounts, which I appreciate isn't published yet, you will see the movement in the metrics that we always show value for money, advocacy, et cetera. And they all improved in 2021 after obviously more difficult times in 2020. But -- so very, very strong still. On the investment performance, Rob?

Yes. Greg. So a couple of things. I think the main thing is, as Andrew said, we're kind of investing for our clients for decades, not days. So -- the key metric we look at is what's the median return all of our clients have received net of all fees, and that's well over 7%, which means our average client has more than doubled their wealth over 10 years. Particularly in 2021, the average of our fund grew about 11%. But you got to remember, we've got 5 million different combinations of fund outcomes for our clients. But again, our managed portfolio, which is kind of our proxy for 60-40 did 9.5% net of all fees. I think you were referring to spot the dog. And I think the key thing to note there is that, that's not an apples-with-apples comparison because you take our fund charges, which carry our advice and our platform fees and our underlying fund manager fees and compare them with underlying fund performance. And again, those funds were a small percentage of our overall fund.

Okay. Thank you. On the technology, we see technology supporting our face-to-face advice model. It's going to make us easier to do business with, and it will also increase client experience. But perhaps get a flavor of that, I might just ask Ian MacKenzie to just touch on our sort of next-generation client experience that will come out later this year. Ian?

Thanks, Andrew, and thanks, Greg. And yes, as Andrew says, we see technology fundamentally complementing face-to-face advice. And indeed, our investment in Bluedoor and Salesforce and just that put out there, we've completed our replatforming, and it went well, and it's hard work. Our investment in Bluedoor and Salesforce, it made us have that sort of platform where we can build on. So we will be launching built on Salesforce and powered by Bluedoor data, our new clients app in an app store near you, both Android and Apple at the end of this quarter, which will provide 24/7 access to SJP and clients on clients mobiles and importantly, empower and enable the partnership to lead and complement a digital relationship with the clients. So we believe we'll have a compelling offering there, document sharing, real-time chat, click-to-call, secure video calling and all the things there as well as obviously seeing your portfolio and importantly, for clients that personalized performance, not just some sort of fund performance at a generic level. And as I say, that will be live in pilot in app stores by the end of the quarter. Thanks. I hope that helps, Greg.

Thanks, Ian.

And our next question comes from Rhea Shah of Deutsche Bank.

I just have 2 questions. So the first one is around costs. And I appreciate the color you've given during the presentation, to earlier questions as well. But are you able to provide some more color just within the different parts of controllable expenses. So how should we be seeing establishment expenses grow this year because they were flat in 2021? And then my second question is around activity and in the first quarter. And again, I appreciate that last year's quarter was a tough comparative. But in terms of looking towards the IFA flows and tax year-end, could we see any more surge in demand if there is any remaining pent-up demand to use allowances? Or do you think most of it was used out last year?

I'll pick up the activity bit. And Craig can do the costs? And do you want to do cost first, Craig?

Yes, yes. I'll pick costs up first. I think the general pattern here in the future will be that establishment expenses are contained to more or less where you see them for 2021. There will be some movements, and it's important to understand that there is a relationship between development costs and establishment expenses. So for example, if we roll out new software, what is the development in 1 year can become an ongoing establishment cost the next in terms of license fees and what have you. So I think what I would encourage is to think about this in an overall charge sense. So rather than think about the 3 main component parts, which we will continue to call out at least in the short term. I would think of it in terms of total controllable overheads. But the general pattern of what it is we're doing over the planning period up to 2025 is to try and reduce as far as possible what you might regard as being the sort of traditional costs so we can create more space for investments through the development line. But I would think of them in totality rather than individually.

Okay. Thank you, Craig. And just on the activity. Look, we're sort of 6 or 7 weeks into the new year, and January is always the quietest month of the year. But the activity levels that we're seeing in this period mean that we are confident of achieving that 7% market consensus for the year. But as Craig said earlier, the first quarter was a tougher comparative. So it won't be even throughout the year. But just to reiterate, we're confident of achieving the 7% consensus.

And our next question comes from Andrew Crean of Autonomous.

Can I do 3 questions? Firstly, could you give us a sense of the market impact on your funds under management so far this year? What's happened to the GBP 154 billion from markets? Secondly, picking up on Rob Gardner stuff, you were talking about 11% average return in '21. I think the managed fund was 9.5%. Do you have benchmarks against those, which you measure so we can see how you're doing against your benchmark? And then thirdly, on Asia, with the increasing lockdowns in Hong Kong, I think the expat is getting itchy there, is getting a bit p***** off and some of them are definitely leaving. Does that affect an impact upon your plans in Asia? And if not, why not?

Okay. Thank you. I'll ask Craig to probably talk about the market impact on funds because he's probably more familiar with everyone's models. And Rob, to do the average return, and I'll come back to Iain on Asia. So Craig, do you want to do the impact on?

Yes. Well, obviously, we're not publishing any update on funds under management and the missing components from all of this is anything that's happened in terms of flows since the beginning of the year. The easiest way for me to approach the question is to think of it in terms of the models that we see. We now see a pretty high degree of accuracy when it comes to charting movements, market movements in our funds under management, which means that when we look into these models, we see a very, very close estimate of net income from funds under management. And I can only suggest that you look at the various indices that drive those models and out will pop a good approximation of funds under management at any point in time, absent, of course, the impact of flows.

Thank you, Craig. Rob, do you want to come back to the benchmarking?

Yes, Andrew. So you're right, the 11% and 9.5% represents a mixture of funds. So the average client will hold 10 to 12 funds. That's what makes up a portfolio. So the underlying funds, so we have all -- we have 39 different funds, all have their own benchmarks and on average, across our range in 2021 on a relative basis, they outperformed. So obviously, there were some winners, there were some losers but in a relative position network fund manager fees or forward fees was positive. But the best way to see that is our value assessment, which you can see for last year, where we only had 2 green funds and 8% -- sorry, 8% green and 2% red, and we'll be updating that in the coming months.

8% green and 2% red.

So 8% is green and 2% red.

Andrew. I'll just ask Iain to answer the Asia question.

Thanks, Andrew. I think the way to think about our Asia business is it's split roughly 50-50 between Hong Kong and Singapore. And we see Singapore as a really strong net beneficiary. Ironically, as to what's going on in Hong Kong, i.e., we see in clients and funds flowing into Singapore quite strongly at the moment. I've been out there a couple of times over the last couple of months. So in terms of the media impacts, we're confident about our gross flows across Asia. And in terms of Hong Kong specifically, yes, there's no doubt that the lockdowns are having an impact. But Hong Kong, we think we'll have a decent business result in 2022. And actually, if you think about the nature of our advice proposition in that part of the world, it's about expats and providing a kind of wealth management proposition that enables people to move around globally. So actually, it works quite well in this environment.

And our next question comes from Nasib Ahmed of UBS.

Just a couple for me. Firstly, related to earlier questions on competition and consolidation in the U.K. market. I think you previously highlighted DFM as an area where you can potentially grow inorganically. So is that still the case? And are there any other areas that you would look at to grow inorganically? That's question one. And then question two on just the solvency, U.K. solvency review. There's a potential risk margin reduction and given you don't have a transitional, it seems you would benefit from a change like that. So is that true? And then related to this, I noticed that you removed a statement in your press release where you talked about the group solvency ratio diluting if the SJP U.K. balance sheet increases or developed. So I was wondering if that was related to review results and what's changed there.

Yes. Sorry, thank you. I'll do the acquisition point. We have -- it's an area we'll always be open to, but there are no plans in the immediate future to take part in the consolidation in the DFM space. But I wouldn't say it's -- it would be never -- and I'm going to hand over to Craig to talk about the solvency.

Yes. There are -- if I've understood the question correctly, plans of first or at least consultations that would have a positive impact for some, if not all. What I would emphasize, though, and I sort of go back to where we were probably this time last year when we were describing the impact that IFRS has in our Life company. So the way to think of it is whilst there could be benefits emerging in the form of kind of Solvency II calculations. The thing that will be the constraining factor within our life company, will be IFRS and the requirement to defer income. So there's nothing new there, and it's really planning through that, that resulted in the change in the dividend payout ratio that we announced last year. And the second part, I think there may have been a small piece of disclosure. But I think all it was doing was drawing a distinction between solvency and the life company and overall group solvency. And of course, overall, the general picture is that the Life company grows at quite a pace and yet the group balance sheet itself, if you think of it in terms of the shareholder balance sheet doesn't. So really, all it was seeking to do is describe the relationship between those 2 factors.

Okay. Thank you, Craig. Nadia, do we have anyone else with questions?

[Operator Instructions] Final question at the moment comes from Steven Haywood of HSBC.

In terms of current market volatility, does this present to your sales agents and clients a bit of opportunity? Or does it put off a lot of investors investing in the near term? Does that have a notable impact of flows that you say? That will be my first question. Second question on the DFM business, you highlighted that there will be an EUR 11 million net investment cost in 2022, which is obviously going the wrong direction towards your breakeven target. So I was just wondering to get your breakeven target in 2024, is there a really steep or kind of recovery in the next couple of years? Or does it all just happen in 2024? And then finally from me, sorry, on the regulatory fees and FSCS levy, I thought it went down year-on-year, which is a nice surprise. It might have been related to one-off last year. What should we expect for this regulatory fees and FSCS levy to sort of grow at going forward? Will it remain stable? Or would it be surprising to come down again in the future?

Okay. What I'll do is I'll ask Craig to talk about the trajectory of the DFM profits to profitability and also the FSCS levy. And then I'll probably come back and talk about the current market volatility. So Craig, do you want to do the DFM and...

Yes. Yes, it's not quite the hockey stick, you might imagine because the key factor within our net investment in DFM is a 2 and a little bit year project to completely replatform our DFM business. And the reason you see this coming through as a cost is that it doesn't qualify for capitalization. If we take a kind of management accounting view of it, there's a real long-term benefit of getting this done. But unfortunately, when it comes to a set of accounts that it pushes through in the year that you spend the money. So the reason for that rapid move towards breakeven and profitability isn't so much that anything is changing on the income side, it's that we cut the cost off once we finish that project. I think the second bit to the question is FSCS. I wish I could give you a number, but I'm afraid I can't. It's very difficult to see how that will evolve. I'm hopeful that it won't escalate. I made the point in the presentation that we don't see this as a sustainable charge. I think the fact that the FCA consulting on this is really positive. And I think the fact that most, if not all stakeholders want to do something about it is also very positive. But I think to be fair, it's difficult to see how quickly progress can be made on this. So my sort of planning assumption for the time being for 2022 is that it's about the same, but I'm afraid that's about as accurate as I'm able to be.

Okay. Thank you, Craig. And I'll just come back to your first question, Steven. Look, I mean, clearly, the situation in Ukraine is disturbing, and we'll be watching it closely. Our advisers will naturally be staying close to their clients as the situation develops as well. We are, of course, a long-term business, long-term investing. We've been through lots of different issues over the 30 years, and I can remember most of them well. We started in the ERM crisis long-term capital management, 911, Iraq or financial crisis, the recent pandemic, et cetera, et cetera. And different clients will behave differently. And just sort of try and bring it to life I'll just make up to clients. So firstly, a younger client may see market volatility and market falls as a good buying opportunity because they might have a 30-, 40-, 50-year time horizon. Older clients might be a little bit more reticent to invest because their time horizon might be shorter. But of course, they might actually be investing for inheritance tax purposes, in which case they go beyond their life expectancy into their beneficiaries. So I think every client will behave slightly differently, but we are a long-term business.

We currently have no further questions. So I'll hand the call back over to you, Andrew, for any closing remarks.

Okay. Well, thank you very much, everyone, for joining. It's good to have a conversation here as well. Look, and I think as I said in the CEO comments on the results, we look forward and see that the demand for face-to-face advice remains as strong as ever, and we think we are ideally placed to continue to benefit from that increasing demand. We are making the right investments in the business. And after 12 months, we are in a very good place against those stretching targets we set ourselves for 2025. So that's it for me. Thank you again for attending.