Stingray Group Inc. (RAYA) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Good morning, ladies and gentlemen, and welcome to the Stingray Group Inc. Q4 2025 Results Call. [Operator Instructions] This call is being recorded on Wednesday, June 11, 2025. I would now like to turn the conference over to Lloyd Feldman. Please go ahead.

Good morning, everybody, and thank you for joining us for Stingray's conference call for its fourth quarter and fiscal year ended March 31, 2025. Today, Eric Boyko, President, Chief Executive Officer and Co-Founder; and Marie-Helene Fournier, Interim Chief Financial Officer, will be presenting Stingray's operational and financial highlights. Our press release reporting Stingray's fourth quarter and full year results for fiscal 2025 was issued yesterday after the markets closed. Our press release, MD&A and financial statements for the quarter are available on our investor website at www.sttingray.com and on SEDAR+. I will now provide you with the customary caution that today's discussion of the corporation's performance and its future prospects may include forward-looking statements. The corporation's future operations and performance are subject to risks and uncertainties, and results may vary materially. These risks and uncertainties include, but are not limited to, the risk factors identified in Stingray's annual information form dated June 10, 2025, which is available on SEDAR+. The corporation specifically disclaims any intention or obligation to update these forward-looking statements, whether as a result of new information, future events or otherwise, except as may be required by applicable law. Accordingly, you are advised not to place undue reliance on such forward-looking statements. Also, please be advised that some of the financial measures discussed over the course of this conference call are non-IFRS. Refer to Stingray's MD&A for a complete definition and reconciliation of such measures to IFRS financial measures. Finally, let me remind you that all amounts on this call are expressed in Canadian dollars unless otherwise indicated. With that, let me turn the call over to Eric Boyka.

[Foreign Language]. It's good to have a true Montreal-based anglophone to start the conversation. Now we're going to go to a more bilingual person. So good morning, everyone, and welcome to our fourth quarter conference call for fiscal 2025. Fiscal 2025 was a highly successful year, reflecting strong execution and marked by the achievement of key milestones in our profitable growth strategy. First, advertising revenues from our Broadcast and Recurring Commercial Music segment, which comprise of our FAST channels and retail media advertising unit increased by more than 45% for a second consecutive year as advertisers increasingly rely on connected TVs to maximize their advertising dollars. Accordingly, we invested in our FAST channels platform in 2025, including the recent launch of channels like Cozy Café, Movie Music, Stargaze and Cityscapes, to position Stingray as the #1 global supplier of musical and ambient channels for connected TVs. To leverage the growth leadership on FAST channels, we launched Stingray's Premium Ad Inventory Network, which I'll explain more in our questions. This is a strategic initiative enables alternative partners, vendors to sell our unsold inventory. We anticipate that this will contribute significantly to our growth trajectory next year or this year. Secondly, by partnering with the IAB Canada and Leger to release influential research on evolution of in-store audio advertising in Canada, we have further solidified our standing as a recognized leader in this expanding market. We are true trailblazers in this market, evangelizing retailers about the untapped potential of in-store media ads, adding sales representatives and partners to increase inventory selling and optimize data and pricing structure to improve monetization. Third, the double-digit organic growth for second straight year reflects a judicious investment decisions Stingray has made to propel revenue growth and drive profitability. In fiscal 2025, we delivered 12.3% year-over-year organic growth, excluding radio, on top of the 10.2% growth of 2024. So always impressive to do 2 years in a row. Stingray's emerging track record demonstrate consistent double-digit organic growth. We have successfully established a strategic and operational framework that underpins our capacity to continue this trend into this current year and beyond. Finally, we reduced our net debt by more than $27 million in fiscal '25, closing the year with a net debt to pro forma adjusted EBITDA ratio of 2.28x and well within our target range. As a result, fiscal '25 stands as an outstanding year of performance clearly demonstrated by adjusted EBITDA growth outpacing total revenues. So we like that when we get scale. In this very encouraging context, broadcasting and commercial music revenues increased 17.8% to $254 million in fiscal '25, driven by higher FAST channel revenues, greater equipment and installation sales related to digital signage and positive foreign exchange impact. Radio revenues, meanwhile, improved 2.3%. And we did say at the start of the year that our goal was 2% to 3% for the year. So we hit it to $132 million in fiscal '25, mainly due to higher digital revenues. We are particularly pleased that our strategy to leverage the radio sales team in Canada to sell in-store audio and video ads is beginning to deliver tangible results. This latest asset of our growth plan helped to boost radio revenues by nearly 4% in the fourth quarter despite a tight market environment. Looking forward to 2026, our capital allocation priorities are well defined. We intend to sustain our momentum by reinvesting in high-growth areas of our business, lowering our net debt leverage ratio below 2x EBITDA, seeking EBITDA-accretive acquisition on an opportunistic basis and finally, rewarding our current shareholders with our well-established NCIB and dividend programs. I will turn the call over to Marie-Helene for a financial overview of the fourth quarter. Marie?

Thank you, Eric. Good morning, everyone. Revenues reached $96 million in the fourth quarter of fiscal 2025, up 14.8% from $83.7 million in Q4 2024. The year-over-year growth was largely due to an increase in FAST channel revenues and a positive foreign exchange impact. Revenues in Canada rose 2.7% to $46.8 million in the fourth quarter of 2025. The growth can be attributed to an increase in radio revenues driven by higher local sales. Revenues in the United States grew 45% year-over-year to $38 million in Q4 2025, reflecting stronger FAST channel revenues and a favorable foreign exchange impact. Revenues in other countries decreased 5.5% to $11.2 million in the most recent quarter. The year-over-year decline was mainly caused by lower commercial revenues. Looking at our performance by business segment, Broadcasting and Commercial Music revenues increased 20.9% to $64.6 million in the fourth quarter of 2025. The growth was primarily driven by greater FAST channel revenues and a foreign exchange gain. For their part, radio revenues improved 3.9% to $31.4 million in Q4 2025, mainly due to higher local revenues. In terms of profitability, consolidated adjusted EBITDA rose 19% to $35 million in the fourth quarter of 2025. Adjusted EBITDA margin reached 36.5% in Q4 2025 compared to 35.2% for the same period in 2024. The growth in adjusted EBITDA and adjusted EBITDA margin was mainly due to higher revenues, partially offset by greater variable expenses related to higher salaries. By business segment, Broadcasting and Commercial Music adjusted EBITDA increased 24% to $28.1 million in the fourth quarter of 2025. The year-over-year increase can be attributed to an improved gross margin on higher revenues. Adjusted EBITDA for our Radio segment rose 4.6% year-over-year to $8.6 million in the fourth quarter of 2025. Similarly, the year-over-year increase can be credited to a better gross margin on higher revenues. In terms of corporate adjusted EBITDA, it amounted to a negative $1.7 million in Q4 2025 compared to a negative $1.5 million in Q4 2024. Stingray reported net income of $7.7 million or $0.11 per share in the fourth quarter of 2025 compared to a net loss of $46.3 million or $0.67 per share in Q4 2024. The variation was mainly due to a onetime impairment charge of $56.1 million on goodwill related to the Radio segment in the comparable period in 2024 and higher operating results in Q4 2025. These factors were partially offset by a foreign exchange loss and an unrealized loss on derivative financial instruments in the most recent quarter. Adjusted net income totaled $18.6 million or $0.27 per share in Q4 2025 compared to $15.4 million or $0.22 per share in the same period in 2024. The year-over-year increase was mainly due to higher operating results, partially offset by a foreign exchange loss. Turning into liquidity and capital resources. Cash flow from operating activities totaled $39.7 million in Q4 2025 compared to $44.3 million in Q4 2024. The year-over-year decline was primarily due to a foreign exchange loss, higher income taxes paid as well as greater acquisition, legal, restructuring and other costs. These factors were partially offset by improved operating results. Adjusted free cash flow amounted to $18.4 million in Q4 2025 compared to $15.6 million in the same period in 2024. The increase was mainly related to improved operating results, partially offset by higher income taxes paid. From a balance sheet standpoint, Stingray had cash and cash equivalents of $14 million at the end of the fourth quarter and credit facilities of $341.4 million, of which approximately $156.3 million was available. Total net debt at the end of the fourth quarter of 2025 stood at $327.4 million, down $27.3 million from the end of Q4 2024 as the corporation reimbursed and retired the totality of its sub debt. Combined with improved adjusted EBITDA over the last 12 months, our net debt to pro forma adjusted EBITDA ratio improved to 2.28x at the end of the fourth quarter. Finally, we bought back 1.2 million shares in fiscal 2025 under our NCIB program, including 275,000 shares in the fourth quarter for a total of $9.1 million. We also made dividend payments of $20.5 million during the past fiscal year to reward our shareholders. This ends my presentation. I will now turn the call over to Eric.

Okay. This concludes our prepared remarks. At this point, Marie-Helene and I will be pleased to answer questions. And on behalf of the entire Stingray team, thank you for joining us on this conference call. I know you're very busy. We look forward to speaking with you again following the release of our first quarter results for fiscal 2026. Hopefully, we'll have a great day. All right. I think we're ready for questions.

[Operator Instructions] Your first question comes from Adam Shine from National Bank Financial.

Of course, my thoughts are with JP and his family. So turning to your performance, obviously, a very strong finish to a solid year, Eric. Can you just help us a little bit? I think my guess is FAST revenues were probably around $30 million or so for the year? Can you speak to your expectations for fiscal 2026 and maybe also in the context of a second year in a row of 45% plus FAST and retail media ad unit growth, how you would characterize growth for fiscal 2026 on that metric as well that I'll just add a couple more, if you don't mind?

Yes, Adam, it is the key question. So the good news is Q1 because it's at the end of the year, Q1, we're already looking to be up again on advertising, FAST and retail above 40%. So we're starting the year very strong. So very happy about that. The FAST channel for us, it's a big surprise. It's -- we're launching more channels. We launched another 6 audio channels on Vizio. We're launching more channels with Roku different partners. We're launching with LG, so new channels, more partners. Our partners are growing. So very excited about that growth. Second big news for us is our partners sell on average 40% to 50% of their ads. The other 50% is like in radio, if you don't sell it, you lose it. So we started what we call our premium advertising network, but we also call it backfilling. So we do the backfilling on those channels. So that for us is a brand-new project that started just in April. And I must say the programmatic sales and that -- the potential to where we have 8 partners selling on the backfilling is just -- it's impressive results. Happy to give you more information at the end of Q1, but this could easily double the size of our FAST channel because we have LG and Samsung and Vizio selling and then we sell after, so -- with the same inventory. So again, for us, getting involved in that backfilling programmatic sales is a game-changer. We're investing it technology-wise and with a few people, but you don't need a lot of people to do tens of millions of sales. So it's a very, very accretive and very scalable, which I must say I've never seen scale like that in my business history. And also good news to announce, we've officially -- when you have your Samsung and your LG or you're remote, so officially, we're going to be on every onn and Vizio remote. So onn is the brand of our friends at Walmart. So we're looking to be on 8 million to 10 million remotes with Walmart onn. So that means at the bottom of the remote, usually you have Netflix, you'll have Amazon Prime and then you're going to have Stingray music. So we're very happy that we're going to have a music button on the remote to send people directly to our section. So that for us it's a good investment, but also it's a big honor to be next to Netflix and Amazon Prime. So -- and we're looking to do the same thing with all the Vizio TVs. So we're looking at between 16 million to 20 million new active users a year coming in for the next 4 to 5 years. So again, a lot of growth coming over the good period of time. So I must say, Adam, we're very excited with the FAST growth, the backfilling and our partnerships.

So if I could just unpack a little bit of that. First off, just as a context of the FAST channel ad growth. I mean you've had a tremendous run over the last 2, 3 years, almost from a standing start, more than doubling. Are you suggesting to us that this could be $60 million in F 2026 or should we think about that a bit more conservatively...

No, no, I think that we could -- I think that we are in a position to double our FAST channels this year, our revenues with the backfilling. And the backfilling will be able to give you a lot more color in Q1. But for us, it's -- and again, these sales came in with us. It wasn't even in our budget. So our Board yesterday said, "Oh, Eric, you're already sandbagging." So -- but no, I think it's going to be interesting to show you the numbers in Q1, Adam. I think you'll be impressed.

Okay. And again, FAST has also contributed to some of the mix and margin advantage that you've had in the quarter and also, frankly, over the past year or so. Any additional color around the economics? Do the economics change a little bit in terms of this backfilling?

Yes, that's a good -- very good question. So I'm happy you asked it. So when our partners sell it, when LG and Vizio, we recognize the revenue on a net basis. So they give us -- whatever they give us is net. So the margins are much, much higher. And we're confident to maintain our 42% EBITDA margin for this year for 2026, like we've done over the last 2 years. So on that side, it's a much higher gross margin. When we sell, we report gross. So now we have to pay the Vizio share or the LG share. So let's say it's 50-50. So in that case, our gross margin is more like in the 40%. So a big difference depending if it's they sell it or we sell it in terms of revenue recognition. But I'm sure with Marie-Helene, we can go in details about that.

Okay. And just lastly, on coverage, obviously, good progress as you had telegraphed at the start of the year. You said under 2x. The press release says approaching 2x. It's just semantic, but maybe you could just clarify that. And also, if indeed it's around the 2x mark, it looks to me like you have almost $30 million or so of room to do buybacks and/or M&A. Is there anything in the pipeline that's beyond sort of tuck-in? Or should we just think of acquisitions this year as tuck-ins?

So -- and by the way, I must say you're very good analysts. So you're very close to that. Yes, we expect to be below 2x EBITDA by December. So -- and to finish the year, we'll have the capacity of $30 million to $40 million if things go well to do extra dividends, extra buyback, extra deals. We've been working on some very good deals over the last 6 months. But I must say that when the story in March and April, the tariff, the dollar, it was U.S. deals, the dollar was moving, our stock price was moving. So I must say that the Board and myself, we just put a bit of a hold on bigger deals. I'm talking about deals that are in the $200 million to $400 million range because it's just it was moving too much. So we put everything on hold. Maybe if things are more quite, more stable, geopolitically and tariff-wise over the next 6 months, we can revise those deals. But right now, we're more focused on small tuck-ins. And also, I must say, Adam, when your organic sales are double digit, and again, for -- because we're so advanced in Q1, Q1 will be another double-digit quarter. We have a lot of work to do on investing in technology for the ad selling, tech selling, getting new partners on board. Yesterday, we were with 80 customers in Denver. It's a big connected TV show, the biggest show of the year, and we had the chance to invite 80 customers to go see Coplay. So I don't think any other broadcaster in the world have the relationship that we seem to have. Because we were a cable company, we had this ability to be B2B sales and all the people from the cable side, they switched over to the FAST TV side. So our connections have been with them for 20 years. And our sales team is a very experienced sales team in the market. So I think we're taking advantage of our ability to really deliver great products that deliver great results, Adam.

Your next question comes from Aravinda Galappatthige from Canaccord Genuity.

Congrats on another solid quarter. On the FAST channels, obviously, there's no question. I mean, the growth momentum is really there. Just to sort of assess the risk side of things, Eric, can you just talk to the level of diversification that you have right now among the different platforms? And also any space that grows like this as quickly as this year you're going to see other kind of competitors take a look? Are you seeing any of that? I know that you have a dominant position in your firming that up with some of the new channel launches. But I wanted to see if you were spotting something in the horizon in terms of other players getting in?

Yes. So we were lucky because in the U.S. market, we didn't have any much -- we didn't have much of the audio channels in the U.S. and on the cable side because that was the music choice at all the cable market. So when the FAST channel started 6, 7 years ago, we were the first one to be all in. So we took -- we remain the first player advantage. We are still, as of now, the only audio music partner in with all of our partners. And on the Ambiance side, we have now 8 channels on Ambiance, and we're the only one that really does a great Ambiance style. So -- and the beauty of our product, our sweet spot is really laid back listening. When you listen to 70s or 80s music at home and our #1 channel audio is still Spot. So people come home, they want to relax, they put the Spot channel on and they cook or the -- so it's a unique channel. The market is $70 billion. The market was $70 billion on NBC, ABC and CBS, and all of that is switching over. It's the same ads that are switching over to the fast channels. So I must say the demand side that lake is very deep. We're surprised how deep that lake is. It's -- so we're -- and we're just getting better and better at it. We're launching more and more channels. We're getting better at selling and helping our partners. And what I'm happy about us doing the backfilling is we're less dependent on LG, Samsung and Vizio. So if they sell less of the ads, the good news is we have more of the backfilling to sell. If they only sell 40%, then we have 60% to sell. If they sell 60%, we're happy because they're selling and then we have 40%. So I think by doing this with all of our partners will really position us even more as a great partner because we're double selling and they make as much money when we sell the ads than when they make the ads. So it's a win-win for us and our partners. And the fact that, again, for me, the fact that our friends at Vizio and Walmart took us as one of their three partners to be the button on the remote is a great honor. So I think we're well positioned. So for now, I'd say no, it's looking very -- the lake is increasing, so all the boats are rising.

Okay. That's great color. Eric, just to follow up on the backfilling. So you have backfilling rights on all the platforms, right, Samsung included and I just want to clarify, it's all programmatic as well?

Yes. So the answer is no, not at all. We're trying to convince them that we're doing a great job. I think that would be a big win. On most platform, we have backfilling rights. And yes, it is all programmatic. That's a word I need to practice with my diction coach because that word programmatic is very difficult for French-Canadian.

Okay. And then last question for me. On the retail media side, I know the momentum is still there, but obviously, as the kind of the base grows, the growth rates moderate. Maybe just talk to your expectations there. I know that video could be a tailwind for you in fiscal '26. Any sort of additional color on that front?

And very good, yes. We had very high growth in retail media over the last 3, 4 years, like in the 30s and 20s and 40s. And so finally, this year, we expect double-digit growth, but on the low end. We're also -- we reorganized a bit of the sales team. We merged U.S. and Canada. We put a new person in charge -- a new GM in charge of that unit. So this year, we'll be more a year of reestablishing ourselves. We're also trying to give more data from the retailers to the advertisers to make it more like a digital sell. So I'd say we're looking more for this year like a 10% growth, double digit, but low double digit.

The next question comes from Scott Fletcher from CIBC.

I'll stick with the Broadcasting and Commercial segment, but something we don't talk about as much as the subscription line, that was sort of surprising to me to see the 7% growth rate number in the quarter. Can you sort of unpack what the -- what drove the growth and what you expect for that line?

Yes, very good question. We did have a bump this quarter. We did have like a special promotion that gave us a lot of subscription. So this quarter is not a usual quarter. I would look more on the growth that we had year-over-year than quarter-over-quarter for your forecast, but we did have a positive blip this quarter. So be careful. Don't put this growth for the rest of the year for your forecast because it might be too high for us.

And then on the M&A, you mentioned some of those larger deals. If those were to be the case, can you sort of walk through the financing plan there? Would that be likely an equity issuance...

No, The good news of being at 2x debt EBITDA because we're reimbursing debt every week. And our EBITDA is growing every quarter is that we're in a very good position to do a big acquisition without raising any equity. And for us, myself as an entrepreneur, the last thing I want to do is issue equity. Equity is the most -- right now, our free cash flow yield is anywhere from 15% to 17% of -- depending on how you measure it and if you look at our budget and our forecast. So for us, issuing shares of 15%, 17% is not -- it's too expensive. And right now, we're borrowing at 4.5% at the bank. So the interest rate are very, very good. So I'd say no. And also, we don't want to go -- if we do a deal, we want to stay below 3x EBITDA. With these types of markets right now, so the deal have to be accretive. We had a few that were very accretive and that we were able to maintain below the 3x EBITDA. We don't want to -- there's a lot of things moving right now. So we are more safe. And also when you had 2 years of positive organic sales of plus 10%, like we had 10 and 12, and you start your Q1 and your Q1 is still double-digit organic we have so much wind on our back that there's less -- not as much pressure to do deals and more focused on investing on our growing strategy. Was that a good answer?

Yes, no, definitely. And then just to confirm one last thing on the broadcasting commercial. So you -- even with the lower margin revenue growth, you still think -- can you sort of point to -- just remind me again what you think the margin -- EBITDA margin target...

Yes, last year, we did 41.9%; this year, we did 42.3%, I'm just looking at my sheet EBITDA margin. So yes, I think 42% is I think is a good goal for us. We make more money when Vizio and LG and Roku and all the partners sell; a bit less money on the backfill, but I think we'll be able to maintain 42%.

The next question comes from Drew McReynolds from RBC.

A couple for me. First, Eric, on the M&A, you provided I think some broad commentary on where your focus is on that. Can you just kind of remind us where that focus is? And then secondly, on the connected car contribution, I think your commentary in previous quarters is to see a bigger uptick in fiscal 2027 than fiscal 2026, I was just wondering if that's still the trajectory of that revenue contributor?

Yes. So for sure, all of M&A acquisitions that we're looking at are in our growth vectors. So in the FAST segment and advertising, programmatic sales. So very much where we're seeing our growth right now. So -- and there's a good list of companies there for us to be talking to. So we're excited about that. I can't get too much in detail, as you know. And regarding cars, good question. Cars, it's a long-term project. We are talking to every car company in the world. We went 4 times to China in the last 6 months, very involved with the Chinese company. We went 2 times to Japan, Korea, we're all over the U.S. I don't want to say names, but we have many of our partners coming here for the Grand Prix this weekend. So many cars company and many clients are coming. We're taking advantage of the Grand Prix in Montreal to invite customers. But these are long-term deals. But I'm happy that this year, we're officially going to hit 8 digits. So we're officially going to be able to be in the 8-digit market. So it's growing well, but still a small unit. It's not as big as the advertising for now. But we are very excited to see the launches in cars. And again, karaoke will be for the kids, the best thing ever. Karaoke will be in every car. And maybe for the parents, they won't be happy with me. But Karaoke will be, I call the table stakes for a car. And even now the big discussion is us producing microphones, so you're able to sing and score yourself in the cars.

All right. And hardly right there. Just shifting gears a little bit. On the Retail Media side, when you think about your growth outlook there and some of the levers that you're still working on, whether it's pricing, sellout rate, ad frequency, where within those levers do you -- are you prioritizing to get the most bang for your buck this year? Like where do you see the lever here in fiscal 2026 or maybe it's all free?

Yes. It's for us -- and the issue with the retail media is there's still no bucket. There's a bucket for TV. There's a bucket for in-store where they invest directly with Loblaw, they invest directly with Metro. There's audio and then there's digital sales or digital ads like CTV. So one of our main focus here is to be able to get data from the retailers to make retail media audio more of it -- to get them more digital with data reports that make it more -- they can measure a better return on investment. So we're still evangelizing the market. So it's -- I must say it's a lot of work. Compared to programmatic sales, that it just opened the tap and the money starts coming in. Here, we're really knocking on doors, we're meeting a lot of agencies, we're traveling, we're going to New York. So it's -- but I think we are the #1 audio retail media player in the world both in Canada and the U.S. So we're positioned to continue that market. But a lot of work.

Yes. Okay. That's helpful. And last one for me, maybe for you, Marie-Helene, is CapEx, I think, came in roughly $15 million in fiscal 2025. Just wondering what should pencil in for fiscal 2026?

It's should be very similar. No big variances on that front.

And even for us, the interest rates came down fast. So even in the interest rate we -- I think we're looking at more $18 million that will pay in interest this year instead of the $24 million, $26 million in the last 2 years. So looking good there. All right. Thank you, Drew.

The next question comes from Jerome Dubreuil from Desjardins.

First question is on the macro situation. In the advertising business, sometimes we're wondering if we see some cyclicality or maybe your vectors are too much in the early innings of their growth. So I'm wondering if you're seeing any impact from the uncertain macro situation right now on your advertising sales?

Yes. So again, good news and I have a chance to mention is that, again, it was so advanced in the quarter because of the year-end, it's a 90-day period. Radio, again, this quarter, radio, we're looking to be at about plus 5%. So April, May, June was a very strong radio. We are getting market share from other players. So we're -- and also our digital strategy is doing well, and radio is really embracing retail media. So we're -- it's -- so that radio seems good for Q1, we'll see for Q2. So -- but happy about that. Who would think that Radio would grow by 5%. If you look at some of our competition that starts with the word C, I think you'd be surprised. And regarding the FAST channels and retail media, but mostly the FAST channels the bucket is a $70 billion market from traditional TV moving to FAST. So we're not creating a new advertising, we're just switching all the viewership that was done on ABC, NBC, CBC and all of the cable side and switching it to the other side. So we're transferring market share, we're not building market share. Do you understand, Jerome? Is that clear?

Absolutely makes sense...

I don't like the word stealing, but we're taking it from the -- on that bucket side and -- so at the end of the day, Coca-Cola and -- it's the same as you see in our FAST channel. If you're a Volkswagen, you want to reach 10 million Americans, then you put some money and then it goes to us, CTV, or it goes to NBC. So it's the same ad. So it's -- we're really leveraging.

Yes, makes sense. Another one on the FAST. Maybe in terms of the inflection we've been seeing in the watched hours really, you have a graph there in the presentation. So that is not related to the backfilling because that wouldn't have an impact on the watched hours. Has something happened this quarter in terms of the hours being watched, can this be repeated? Is this a new floor on which you'll be building upon?

We just -- like again, we've launched 6 channels on Vizio, we're launching another 6 on Roku. We were never on Roku. Roku is Vizio's 20 million active users, but they're going to be going from 20 million to 40 million to 60 million to 80 million. As you know, Vizio got bought over by Walmart. If you go into Walmart in the U.S., all you're going to see is onn, which is the Walmart TV and Vizio. So -- and their pricing is good, but all of those will be managed with the Vizio TV plus system. So just on the Vizio side, we see them doubling to tripling in the next 2 years. We've launched more channels with Vizio. We're launching more channels with LG. We launched more channels with Samsung. So we're really well positioned. We've also launched an Amazon Fire, 30 of our channels, audio and video. We're launching also 30 channel on iSense, so all these platforms are coming on. And people are ready -- the good and bad news are getting off cable, and they see that they have all these channels for free. So it's really -- it's a great win-win for the consumer and win-win for the broadcasters like us.

Yes, it makes sense. And last one for me, back to retail media. Looking at the presentation hearing what you've been seeing in the past, you seem to be talking maybe a bit more openly about increasing the CPMs on retail media that at least how I interpret it. Do you feel that you've done enough in terms of approving the ROI to do this? Have you earned the right or you're going to be testing the water there?

Yes. It's still, I guess, I said retail means, it's totally opposite of programmatic. Programmatic is you need very few people and they do millions of sales. And retail means that you need a lot of people that bang on the doors, bang on the agencies and meet people. So one, retail media is less scalable than selling on FAST. I don't know if that's a good answer, but...

Yes. No, makes sense.

The last question comes from Tim Casey from BMO.

I'm good. The questions have been asked and answered. Thank you.

Thank you, Tim. So I guess this will be -- I guess, all asked their questions. Again, on behalf of the Stingray team, a lot of work here that was done to be year-end. Great results, every department from marketing to content to IT to sales. And I would say even you, Lloyd, legal and finance, but we're in a good position and happy to hopefully deliver another year of double-digit growth, higher EBITDA and also strong cash flow for our shareholders. That's our -- I think we're well positioned for that. Happy about the interest rates and position, hopefully, maybe have a nice significant acquisition. [Foreign Language]. Thank you very much, and have a good day.

Ladies and gentlemen, this concludes today's conference call. Thank you for your participation. You may now disconnect.