Stolt-Nielsen Limited (SNI) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Good afternoon, good morning. Thank you for joining us for the Stolt-Nielsen Limited First Quarter 2023 earnings presentation. Together with me here in London is Jens Gruner-Hegge. We will go through the normal agenda, where I talked about Stolt-Nielsen, go through each of the divisions. Jens will take you through the financials, and then we will open up for questions and answers. And the questions can be posted on the -- through this chat function like last time. The highlights for the first quarter -- all the arrows are pointing upwards, except for the operating revenue, slightly down primarily driven by STC. Otherwise, every other business unit delivered an increased operating revenue. The net profit for the quarter came in just $200,000 short of $100 million at $99.8 million, which is up from $95.3 million in the previous quarter, very much driven by the improved trading results that we see in Stolt Tankers. The EBITDA came in at $213 million, and that is up from $196 million, again driven by the strong results due to higher Stolt volumes and higher COA rates in Stolt Tankers. The Terminal division, also high results, primarily driven by strong demand in the U.S. Gulf and in Brazil, Stolt Tank containers, higher number of shipments but at lower margins. Again, I will talk about each -- go through each of the businesses later. Stolt Sea Farm also had a strong result for the quarter. The high season is, of course, December for Christmas sale, and that is reflected in our results from Stolt Sea Farm. Free cash flow came in at $133.1 million, that is up from $123.7 million in previous quarter. The Board recommended a final dividend for 2022 of $1.25, making it a total dividend per share of $2.25 for 2022. Jens has secured that we -- our company has a robust liquidity position. We're at $479 million, and that is slightly up from previous quarter. If we then move to the net profit variance analysis, very quickly, higher operating profit from Stolt Tankers and also from Stolthaven, lower operating profit from STC, high operating profit from Sea Farm, slightly lower operating loss or higher operating loss from Stolt-Nielsen Gas, our investment in gas. Lower corporate costs of [ $1.2 million ] and lower interest as a result of -- interest expense as a result of lower debt, but also some benefits from foreign exchange. And when you make more money, you also pay more tax. So the income tax is almost $11 million higher than previous quarter, bringing that profit again for the first quarter of $99.8 million. Then moving to Stolt Tankers. The increased trading results are due to the COA rates that we fixed or booked during the quarter was up 16.3%, while the spot rates fell 6.2%. The spot volumes were up by 16.1% and the COA volumes were down by 11.3%. We'll go more into detail, but we have less contracts, therefore less contract volume, and it's been replaced by spot volume, that's again why the spot volume is up even though the spot rates went down in the first quarter, reflecting the slight dip we saw in the MR market in the first quarter. We had lower net market costs, and that was driven by -- that was partially offset by also lower bunker surcharge. Lower owning expenses and that was mainly driven by a recording of the Stolt Groenland insurance claim that we received. But even if you take away that proceed, the operating expense, the only expenses were slightly down from previous quarter. The higher steel prices has increased the residual value of our fleet, which has led to lower depreciation. Higher joint equity income, and that is, of course, in line with our fleet that is also reflected in our joint ventures are also making more money. And then we had the lower gain on sale of assets. We sold 1 ship to Stolt Shearwater in the fourth quarter. And also, we recycled the Stolt Groenland and therefore, we have a lower gain on sale of assets in the quarter, bringing the operating profit to $87.1 million for the quarter, and that is up from $78.2 million in the previous quarter. The bunker prices, lower bunker -- net bunker costs. So 99% of the contracts that we currently have has a bunker clause. The total volume covered by the bunker clauses are now at 56.5%. Again, that reflects that because we have less COAs than previously. That number used to be around 65%. So -- but the spot market is strong, so we're able to kind of get compensated for increasing bunker loss can be, it charged through the spot base. The bunker surcharge revenue was down by $9.2 million as prices dropped and our COA volumes decreased. Bunkers consumed down by 10.3%, resulting in a net decrease in bunker costs by -- of $1.1 million. Moving then to the sale in revenue chart. And as you can see here, we ended the quarter at $29,000, just slightly above $29,000 per day. We gave a guidance previous quarter between 5% and 7% increase as we [indiscernible] last of it's very difficult to kind of give -- for you to understand the COA [ renewed, ] the COA loss, the replacement because each COA is different in volume and rates. So we decided to give you a guidance per quarter. And in the last quarter, we gave you guidance of 5% to 7%, and it came in at 7%. So it was within the guidance that we gave. The spot rates -- the spot versus COA, we are now at 43% spot, 57% COA. 55% of the contracts are being renewed in fourth quarter and in first quarter. Today, we have concluded 26 COAs during the quarter, and we have added one new CEO in the first quarter. So in the fourth quarter 26 COAs and in the first quarter, we added new contracts. We have 21 COAs that are still under negotiations. So as we told you last time, we're pushing very hard to get the contract rates up. And that means that these negotiations can be dragged out in time. Some of the contract customers decided to go to the spot market but are coming back. Some are remaining in the spot market, but 21 are still in negotiation. But I also -- and you can also see that of the contracts that we renewed in the first quarter, we got a 50% increase on average. But we didn't renew 22 contracts. So 22 contracts have not been renewed during the fourth and first quarter. So we are being very aggressive. We feel comfortable with that, but it resulted in a lot of contracts, volume are now not being renewed. And we are now more dependent on the spot market, which we actually feel comfortable with. The positive impacts for these renewals this 50% increase that we have achieved in the first quarter. We reported 30% in the fourth quarter, 50% on average in the first quarter. Again, a lot of contracts not renewed. But the positive impact of these renewals you will see over the next 4 quarters. So to continue to give you an indication of what to expect and what we believe is going to happen, we are giving from flat to 2% increase in the [indiscernible] for the second quarter. So we're spot on in our previous indication. So I think you should also put in your model that we will be within that flat to 2% increase. And why not higher than flat to 2%, it is because we saw a dip in the first quarter in the MR market. Now that would influence the spot rates, and we have a higher stock rate in us, both exposure now, and also in the second quarter. Now this is just a natural cycle of the business. We have more return legs than outbound legs. So we have -- it's just the way it is. So some quarters you have more return legs, which earns less and then the outbound legs. And so we will have more return legs in the second quarter. So again, guidance around a flat to 2% increase. We remind you that $1,000 change in sell-in has an impact of a net income of $6 million per quarter. And I apologize, previously, we showed $7 million, but that was adjusted because we accounted for pool partners and took the full account of that. So it's $6 million for each $1,000 increased in [indiscernible]. In Market highlights, so on the right-hand side, you have the broker reports and you can see the dip, we saw a dip. And again, that was partly driven by the MRs. So we are now seeing that the MRs market is picking up again, and we're seeing out of the [ spot ] rates are also coming up again. So I do feel comfortable with the stop exposure that we have. And the increased spot exposure that we have in this upper going market will actually give us access to a higher degree of spot and also higher rates faster than what we will get through the COAs. All of the regional fleet continued to deliver strong results like the deep sea. And the bottom left, the order book has not really changed. And that is the fundamental thing that is driving this market, and that's why we are so comfortable with it is that as long as we don't see a total collapse in global economy, we feel comfortable to say that we think that the market is going to remain strong for the next 2, 3 years, especially taking into consideration that if you order a ship today, you will be lucky to get it delivered by '26. Now this slide is a new one, and it's really not towards the shareholders or the investors. It's more driven or more target towards our customers, because I know customers listen in. And we are asking for 50% to 100% increase in some contracts. We are an industrial shipping company. We make our living by providing a logistical service to our [indiscernible] as we build them. We operate them for 25 to 30 years, and then we recycle them. Being an industrial shipping company means that we provide a reliable service, we are providing. We are the pipeline for our customers to deliver it on time to the specs that they require, and they can rely on us in good times and in bad times, and we have delivered that service to them. But the historical returns in our industry has not been -- it's been unsustainable. If you look at the chart, the last 10 years, it's been 4.9%. The last 20 years, return on capital employed is 5.8%. That's lower than the cost of capital. So the new investments, if we are going to continue to build the ships that you require to deliver your service, it is in your interest that this market is as strong as it is now, because we can't justify toward our stakeholders to continue to build ships, and that gives us a return lower than the cost of capital. Just indicatively, 20% return on capital employed for the next 5 years is required for us to achieve an 8% return on capital employed. And we're not even there yet. I mean if you look at $30,000, we're approaching $30,000 per day on the ship that cost between $60 million and $70 million. So this is in your interest, because unless we can get these types of rates and these types of return, there is a reason why there's a shortage of ships, because nobody has been making money on it. So our time has come. The market also -- and somebody said this quarter and I love it. Our time has come, the market owes us a lot of money. And for us to be able to go to our stakeholders -- to our shareholders to build new ships, these other rates that we require. We're not being arrogant, we should never be arrogant. We never say take it or leave it. We are always willing but we [indiscernible] backwards provide you the service and the reliability that we are known for, but we need higher rates. Moving on to Stolthaven. This is a beautiful picture of our terminal in Houston. It really is. It's difficult to see the size of the land. But if you look on the left-hand side, you can see the East property land, and this is the area for expansion, including all the way up the closest part of the picture. And you can see our Jetty #11, where Stolt ship is, then you see more 1, 2, 3, 4 Jettys to the right is our other 2 Jettys. And this is the land where we are expanding our terminals. So we have ample land to do this organic growth that we're planning on doing. The improved results is driven by higher rates. So we had particularly higher rates in the U.S. and in Brazil. We had slightly lower operating expenses, but that was primarily due to one-offs, and we had higher A&G costs. And you can also see that we have higher A&G costs in each of our divisions. And that is driven by the salary adjustment that we did at the beginning of the year, but we also did give a one-off payment to the, what we call band, the lower bands in our organization to help them manage the cost of living. That brings the operating profit for the first quarter, up to $25.1 million, and that's up from $20.8 million in the previous quarter. Stable demand but lower throughput volumes. Now we are seeing a very strong demand in the U.S. Gulf. There is a shortage of space in the U.S. Gulf. We are building -- I think we announced previous quarter, we're building additional capacity, and the board has approved that we're building additional capacity, both in Houston, New Orleans. If we wanted to, we could have already filled those tanks up already. So that's in the process. We are achieving a double-digit increase on the renewals that we see in Houston and in New Orleans. The European terminals, the demand is actually recovering. Utilization is stable but lower seasonal throughput in volumes. The demand is recovering is because the European market is becoming an import market. The energy cost in Europe makes the manufacturing uncompetitive. So some of it's more competitive import. So the local market, the European market instead of being supplied by European manufacturers, they are being supplied by imports. So we are seeing a pickup in inquiries for additional stores in our terminal in Europe. The Asia terms are varied, utilization and throughput volumes stable, but inquiries are picking up. And especially in China, we are seeing an increased inquiry. So we do expect to pick up as China continues to open. They have opened up, but as the economy picks up pace, we do expect an increased activity in our terminals in Asia. Steady as always but at an improving trend. Moving to Stolt Tank containers. Transportation revenue decreased by 14.8%. That's driven by lower transportation rates, so the container lines and trucks. And we had a low demerged revenue that decreased by 12% as customers are returning the tanks quicker. So during the pandemic, during the logistical market, they kept the tanks for a long period of time. They used their storage. They want to build up an additional kind of inventory because of unreliability of the logistical bottlenecks. In the later stage, there's been a slowdown in demand, so that has caused them to hang on to the tanks longer because they use the product -- took a longer time to use the product. Now they're starting to redeliver those tanks quicker and that's why [indiscernible] revenues down. When you have a lower transportation, you also have a lower and move expenses. High repositioning expenses slightly up and lower other operating expenses of $1.6 million -- $39.3 million operating profit, that's down from $44.9 million. I said in the earnings release that -- in the [indiscernible], they're holding up surprisingly well. I would say that, as I said in the previous earnings call, we're going back to a normalized scenario in that industry. I'm actually -- we are actually not -- going to move to next slide. We are actually seeing east of series, so that's Middle East, India, Asia, very strong volumes and margin improvements. It's picking up significantly. We are also seeing a pickup in Europe. The only place we're not seeing any pickup is in the U.S., but we're seeing a pickup it from Europe, but from very low levels. Okay, demurrage level decreased as supply chain, demand in food grade sector remains strong. So guidance for going forward, what is normal? I kind of remind you a normal quarter for STC was between about $40 million, $45 million EBITDA per quarter. So that's what normal. I'm hoping that we're going to be able to hold on to the current market, and that's going to slow down the decrease in normal, but just to give you an indication of $40 million to $45 million EBITDA. Moving to Stolt Sea Farm. A good quarter. Again, the Christmas season, higher turbot sales. The volume was up by 13.3%. However, the price decreased slightly by 1.8%. And the same with sole, sole prices -- sole volume was up by 5.7%, but the prices also went up by 3.2%. Now operating expenses increased as higher a result of higher value. Our OpEx per kilo was down by 7.5%, because we had a fantastic growth during the quarter. The team at Sea Farm writing about land-based research [indiscernible] agriculture. I've got to remind you that we've been in this business for 30 years, recirculation we have developed over the last 20 years, it's up and running. It is working. And these guys are really in control of their operation [indiscernible] costs. The share value adjustment of biomass was $2.4 million loss compared to with a loss of $1.8 million in the previous quarter, reflecting volume and price impact on inventory levels for Turbot. I remind you also what we now call the Stolt-Nielsen investments. The Slide here is the use of Stolt-Nielsen's platform knowledge in each of our respective industries to make investments where we think we have good knowledge, we can create value, and we see opportunistic investments that we can take. And hopefully, 1 day also find an additional leg for Stolt-Nielsen to stand up. So this is our portfolio. It's currently at $202 million. It is -- that's why we're presenting it, it's significant, it's over $200 million. We participated in the IPO of Cool company. We made a $10 million investment. We have sold that investment and booked a gain of $2.5 million profit. So we don't -- no longer have a Cool company position. We also have what we call Stolt venture, which is was established in last year with the aim of investing in sustainable technologies that will contribute to the decarbonization and support our core business. We have made some small investments. These are just products that we are being presented for our business. And if we see that those things are working on those new technologies, can be a benefit for us in the industry, we take the opportunity to see what we can invest in it too. We continue to maintain our [indiscernible] shares, it's been a good investment, 8.3% stake. So yes, then moving on to the financials. I give the laptop to Jens to take you through financials.

Thank you very much, Niels. As always, I will remind you that our fiscal quarter is skewed and the first quarter runs from December 1, '22 through February 28, '23. Also, we have posted the materials, the earnings release, the interim financials as well as this presentation on the company's website. So you'll find at www.stolt-nielsen.com under Investors. Moving on to the net profit, Niels has already covered really the operating revenue and to a great extent, also the operating expense. The only other thing to add on the A&G is also, but it's impacted by about $2.5 million FX. The depreciation Niels mentioned is related to the increase in residual values, and that $2 million differential will carry through with us through the year. So $2 million a quarter impact on that. Then you will see that the loss and gain of loss on sale of assets versus a gain in the prior quarter had a swing impact of $4.4 million. and that was related to really gain on the 2 ships sold than the prior quarter. That gives us an operating profit of $142.1 million versus $132 million last year. And then moving to below that line, you can see the net interest expense was down slightly. That is driven by somewhat higher interest rates in current environment, but also tied to a reduction in our overall debt levels and hence an $800,000 reduction. We had a slight FX loss down marginally from the previous quarter. And then the income tax expense is tied to the higher profits at Stolthaven and Stolt Sea Farm. And also, there was a $3 million tax credit in the fourth quarter that contributed to that swing. That gives us a net profit of EUR 99.8 million, up from EUR 95.3 million and an EBITDA of $213 million, up from $196 million. So we've now reached the quarterly $200 million mark. Moving on to capital expenditures. So far, in 2023, we have spent $47 million. We have a remaining $249 million for 2023. And what we mentioned last time was that we -- it is an ambitious program. The difference from the last time that we spoke was the expansion at Houston and New Orleans that Niels mentioned, and you see that in the Stolthaven Terminals, capital expenditures having increased to $101 million remaining this year, and the bulk were coming in 2024, and this expansion will also possibly drag on into slightly 2025. Stolt Tank containers reflects new tanks orders that are currently being delivered into the fleet. And then Stolt Sea Farm is ongoing expansions and preparations for expansions, including land purchases. For Stolt Tankers, the $71 million that reflects progress payments on the -- on [indiscernible] that's to be delivered but also 2 ships, the 15,000 tonners that were announced about a week ago in the press that we are acquiring to secondhand ships that are each 15,000 deadweight tonnes and scheduled to go into our Carribean service. Moving on to the cash flow. You see the operating cash flow, the cash generated by operating activities is down this quarter, and that is driven by changes in working capital. And it's really tied to the profit-sharing payments that were made in this quarter, but accrued in the prior quarter. So therefore, we're slightly down due to that swing. But if you were to exclude it, we would have been slightly up. Interest payments are down. Again, we do tend to pay -- we have certain loans that are on 6-month interest payments, whereas the bulk is on quarterly. And those that are on 6 are typically paid in the fourth quarter and the second quarter. So they tend to be slightly higher. It brings us to Net cash generated by operating activities of almost $150 million in this quarter compared to $164 million last quarter. Capital expenditures, that includes the CapEx that you saw on the previous slide, plus money spent on drydocking of ships. So that's $54.4 million, down from $68 million in the prior quarter. Also, Niels mentioned, we have sold the Cool company shares, and you see that $11.7 million in the sale of shares. And in prior quarters, we have actually been buying shares. So it's a nice turn. So net cash used in investing activities was down to $43.7 million, it's down from $78 million in the prior quarter. And if you look at the financing activities, you see we have repaid about $46 million of debt capital leases and you have the dividend that was paid out in December of $53.6 million. We expect if AGM signs off on the dividend that was recommended on February 23, then that will be a payment in May, and that will be about $67 million cash outflow during May. But for first quarter, it means we use $99 million in financing activities, and it gives us a net total policy cash flow for the quarter of $6.3 million, and that brings our cash and cash equivalents up to $158 million for -- at the end of the quarter. And if you look at the bottom right, you see that comes on top end of our available revolving credit facilities of $321 million, so for a total of $479 million in available liquidity. Our debt has been reducing steadily even though we have been investing as well, and that's really credit to the cash flow generation capability of the businesses. You see that in the top left quadrant, average cost of the debt is as one would expect in today's interest rate environment, creeping up slightly. We're at 5.13% average for the first quarter. But if you keep in mind, we have been fixed almost 80%, and that's where we've been well shielded from the increase in rates that we have seen. At the bottom part, you will see our debt maturity profile. The first quarter has the $33.7 million has already been repaid. The next significant one we have is the June maturity of about $132 million. With that, that was a one that we did back in June of 2020 during the pandemic. Interest rates were low, and we have a fixed dollar rate on that of 5.19%. And also that 6 months later, we had SNI08 $141.5 million to be repaid, and that has a fixed coupon of about 5.4%. So to the extent that we need to draw on the revolving credit line, to pay those off, that will see our borrowing cost or average cost of debt to increase further as it stands today. The Singapore loan that you see is at $101.7 million that is currently in the process of being refinanced, and we expect to conclude that probably during the third quarter. And that will also most likely include an increase in the facility amount to about $200 million. And in addition to that, with the delivery of the two 15,000 deadweight tonnes, we have secured or in the process of security and financing of about $38 million for those. And for the barge to be delivered during the second quarter. We also have -- are in the process of accuring financing for that. So combined, those 2 would add about $50 million in debt. Moving to the next, as you see the financial covenants are improving, both debt to tangible net worth on the top left at 1.07 to interest expense at 5.85, both improving the limits are 2.25 for the debt to tangible net worth and minimum 2 for the EBITDA to interest expense. This is -- this and the net debt to EBITDA, which is now down close to 2.5 are driven by this steadily improving EBITDA that you're seeing on the bottom right-hand side. For next quarter, the second quarter, you will see that the first quarter '22 of $159 million will go off, and we will add a quarter at a higher level, so that we'll see our last 12-month run rate improve significantly with our expectation. Moving over to ESG. On the top half of the screen, you have our AER ratio that we show you every quarter. At the end of '22, we were at 10.91, which constituted a 30.4% saving. We have not moved much away from that with a strong market. There is a tendency to speed up slightly. So we are maintaining that level. We still are very confident of reaching our goal of a 50% emissions intensity reduction by 2030. Between now and then, a number of older ships will be recycled, and that will be replaced by newer [indiscernible] presumably, and that would help drive down the ratio. Very happy to also say that Stolt Tankers earned a gold medal for Ecovadis, that's the sustainability rating agency, which is a first for Stolt Tankers, and that's something we're very proud of. And to that Stolthaven Terminals and Stolt Tank containers have both maintained their silver rating and improved on that. So it's a good performance by all the 3 logistics businesses. In Stolt Sea Farm, there is ongoing improvements, targeting 0 waste to landfill as well as the reduction of the fish content in our feed which they are continuously working on devoting. And with that, I'd like to pass it back to you.

Thank you. Jens. So we are continuing to see strength across all of our businesses, taking into consideration the first quarter usually is a strong quarter. We are pleased with the performance in the first quarter. The Stolt Tankers, the improved COA terms are now starting to show in the financials. But I -- when we show you a 50% increase on average on the contracts that we renewed, there is, of course, a risk to our strategy. Being market leaders, we need to push and we are. As a result, we are losing our -- some contracts, which we wish we hadn't lost, but that's part of the -- that's part of it. So yes, we're pushing, and we believe we will be able to replace the lost contracts with other business. And I feel, again, comfortable with the supply side of the equation. But there is, of course, a risk to it if something should happen with the global account. But I think we have to do it. Stolthaven Terminal continues to see steady and higher utilization, and we are achieving higher rates on the renewals. Stolt Tank containers are resilient as capacity opens up and margins come under pressure. So even though we had a phenomenal, fantastic year in 2022. I think that 2023 and beyond is still going to be healthy performance from STC. Seafarm, we're expanding in new markets as we produce more fish, we are pushing and really focusing on the marketing side of the business. Jens showed you the strong balance sheet and liquidity position, which has allowed us to pay higher dividends for this year of $2.25 and hopefully, that will -- that trend will continue going forward. That completes our presentation. We will now open up for any questions that you may have, and I see that we have received 2 questions.

Somebody called JW asked [indiscernible] sales ships after 30 years age, does Stolt plan to do the same? And the answer is yes. I mean, we have historically [ sold ] our ships, actually, some have actually gone beyond 30 years. And depending on the new building capacity, we most likely have to [ sell ] them until 30 years. We are at least maintaining our ships as if they are going to [ sail ] until the 30-year show. Then a last -- thank you again for another stellar quarter and your August outlook. How many of the COA renewals in the Q1 were fixed price option that were declared and how many of your COAs have fixed price option attached? I'm not going to go through -- I can say that very few have an option period and even less in the future. Already several years ago, we saw the order book and we were expecting -- we were just waiting for that balance to happen, which has started in 2022 and it's continuing '23. So we started already a couple of years ago, fully extending our contracts by 1 year and not giving additional optional years. And that we are benefiting from now so that we are not locked into the -- all of it. So very few have an additional option period and less so going forward. Somebody called anonymous. When do you expect the new CEO will be selected? We are continuing to search. We have some very good candidates that are being interviewed, and hopefully, we will be in a position to announce relatively soon. But as I stated earlier, it's better to use the time necessary to find the right candidates. Peter Haugen from ABG Sundal Collier, if treating nonrenewed COAs as spot, what is your spot exposure for Q1 and Q2? If treating nonrenewed, we'll come back to you on that one. Can you find out? So if we assume that all of the ones that haven't been renewed, that we don't renew them, what is our spot exposure? But I think we will be coming to 50% spot, but we'll come back with the numbers shortly. Can you comment around recent news about vessel purchases? And if there are any changes to your communicated fleet renewal strategy and consolidation/spin-off. So over the last 2, 3 years, we have been active in the secondhand market and been able to pick up 2 nice ships, and we just recently announced another 2 ships still at a discount to the new building equivalent. But today, we don't expect to be able to pick up such any further secondhand ships, because prices are what we think is too high. So if we're going to pay a high price, that high price would be for new buildings. And with a fleet 160-plus ships, we need to do ships, and we will build -- order new ships at the right time eventually. Our consolidation and spin off, I think I said this in the previous quarter. In this strong market, I don't think there is appetite for consolidation, but we are open, and we continue to look at opportunities, and we are still committed to an IPO to be able to achieve or be in a better position to achieve for consolidation. The exact timing, we are ready. It's just a matter of when the timing is right, both the shipping market and the equity market that needs to be alive. Our balance sheet is now getting stronger and stronger by the day. So we are in a position now to do an IPO, and it is something that we discuss each quarter, quarterly board meeting. So when we make a decision, we will, of course, announce it. Peter Haugen asked the question about the spot exposure. If we don't renew any of the COAs that are under negotiation, we will come back to you with that answer once we have [indiscernible]. I don't see any further questions. So that completes our earnings' presentation. I thank you for your participation, your support and I hope to be able to present to you good results in the second quarter, but I gave you kind of an indication where I think the market, so pretty flat for us, the same or slightly off for Stolt Tankers, a slight improvement in Terminals, slight improvement in Sea Farm and a slight decrease in STC. That's kind of the guidance without saying specific numbers. That completes our presentation. Thank you very much for participating.