Surgery Partners, Inc. (SGRY) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

All right. Great. I want to thank everyone for joining us at the BofA Virtual Healthcare Conference. It's my pleasure to be introducing Surgery Partners. Surgery Partners is one of the largest owners and operators of employee surgical centers and surgical hospitals. Presenting today, we have Eric Evans, the CEO; and Tom Cowhey, the CFO. Tom, I hand it over to you for some statements.

Yes. So we're going to make some forward-looking statements today, and we're going to use some non-GAAP measures to describe our performance. Everybody should go look at our risk factors that are contained in the filings that we do with the SEC. And that's about it.

All right. Perfect. So I'll jump right in. I guess one of the things that's on investors' minds is just that the timing and pacing of the return of volumes post-COVID. I mean, how -- you guys have guidance out there, so how are you thinking about that? And when are you getting back to normal volumes, if you will?

Yes. So it's a great question. And obviously, we're all trying to figure out in a post-pandemic world what that looks like. I would say we were really pleased with our same-store growth in the first quarter, especially considering that January was quite impacted by COVID. February was impacted by storms and really had a strong margin, and I'm happy to say a really strong April. We're seeing that continue. And so I would say that we're as bullish as we've been about volumes being back to where we need them to be to continue our double-digit growth. And so we've seen strength across the board, particularly in high acuity services. We saw that throughout the pandemic last year, orthopedic, spine, cardiology, some of the higher acuity stuff held up a lot better. And I know you saw in our first quarter, we grew total joints in our ASCs by 122%. So we're continuing to see not only the business return but also the shift from traditional acute care setting, so that's been certainly helpful. But I think more importantly, you're starting to see some of the more normal routine business, lower acuity business come back, GI, pain and other things. And so when we look ahead, we are kind of on track with where we had hoped to be. As we talked about last year, we kind of built a non-COVID impacted budget. We said that we acted as if COVID did not happen in 2020, and we just did what we expected to do in 2020 and we grew it. As we've talked about, we expect to grow double digits before M&A on an organic basis, and we're back on that plan. So it's been exciting to see. We're seeing a return of patients to our clinics where we have them. We're seeing the lower acuity business return. I would say, too, we still feel like there's probably a little bit of pent-up business in lower acuity segments. If you think about things like pain injections, those can be dramatically impacted by timings of vaccines. So you're recommended not to get them before you get a vaccine. You have to go through the vaccine process, you have a delay period. So we think there are still pockets where there's still some pent-up demand. But overall, we're really, really pleased with the way the business has returned. Tom, I don't know if you want to dive any deeper on any of the specific service lines.

No, I think you covered it quite well. But maybe, as you said, a couple of just specifics. Think about our business, you think about, hey, we've got 40% of our cases that are in musculoskeletal. Musculoskeletal is a combination of a lot of the higher acuity cases that we do combined with the pain injection business, which tends to be that which leads up to some of those higher acuity implant cases. And then we've got about 25% of our business that is in ophthalmology, and we've got about 20% of our business that's in GI. So as you look at the GI and the ophthalmology relative to that first quarter of 2019 because all the stats versus the first quarter of '20 look pretty good because of that tail off in the back half of March, you still -- you're starting to see actual growth over 2019 levels in the lower acuity cases, the ophthalmology and the GI. Not a lot of growth, kind of a point or 2, right, which -- as you think about what's implied in our guidance, we're looking for full year numbers that are going to be north of that, right? Because we've got to take -- we've got to get that growth that we would have gotten in 2020 and then again in 2021. And we are seeing that as you look at some of the higher implant cases like the orthopedics, where we're up 5%, 5.5% versus the 2019 baseline. Where we're really not at parity yet is actually that pain injection business that Eric talked about because a lot of that is office based. A lot of that, I think, has been deferred as individuals think about their preparing for the vaccine. That's off probably versus 2019 levels, high-single digits, almost 10%. And so there's a lot to come back there still. We still think that there's a lot to get back to the trend line even in some of the lower acuity cases. And then we know, as we think about some of the experience that we had in the fourth quarter and now in the first quarter, we continue to believe, I guess, we don't really know. We continue to believe that there is pent-up demand that will show up by the third and fourth quarter as folks go to get those procedures that they've been deferring now for 18-plus months.

No. That's really helpful. A lot of good color there. I guess you mentioned that some of the orthopedic volumes are pretty strong right now. A lot of tailwinds to that business right now. Your Medicare opening up that. I guess, where are we in that opportunity? And then first to talk about ortho, but then what's the next thing kind of on your mind? I know ortho is probably still going to be driving volume for a while. But what's the next thing after ortho to kind of keep this growth rate going?

Sure. Well, we started with ortho. Clearly, we just had hips added last year from Medicare and that was obviously impacted in a COVID year. We think we're still -- we still have a long way to go there. I think in the next several years, there are a lot of procedures that are going to transition to our space. And so we look at -- I mentioned the total growth of 122%. That was on top of 100% last year in our ASCs, right? So we see that trend continuing and actually accelerating. In the month of March, we had 30% more surgeons doing total hip replacements than we had in the prior year. And so we're seeing new docs. And part of that is driven, too. Historically, there have been some technology challenges in the ASC space that have kept docs from bringing cases they might have otherwise brought. And that includes things like robotics, et cetera. And we've really invested in ways to remove those obstacles. So we think we're early on. And one of the great things about Medicare, and you heard us talk about this before, moving into the space because we've been doing commercial hips and knees for a while is that it makes life so much more convenient for a physician. We don't want to underestimate the idea that they don't have to split their day, right? So if I've got a Thursday full of knee and hip replacements and I've got 8 cases and 3 of them are Medicare, the last thing I want to do is go to 2 locations. And so we think that convenience factor really plays into this. We look very closely at our existing docs, how much of their business historically has gone somewhere else that they could do safely in our facilities. That acuity level goes up all the time. And so we have not only the market share gain among docs who already use us, right, but we also have a bunch of physicians out there that we're focused on recruiting, which we've had great success in doing given our model. And I guess part of the model, too, that's working quite well is the results are great. We have great outcomes. We have really happy patients, patient satisfaction is high. Physician's going to be efficient. So we're making their lives easy. And ultimately, we still think there's a lot of cases that are still there to move. So that's got a runway that's quite a ways out, Kevin. I think if you think about what's next, we've talked a little bit about cardiology. It's going to take time. But clearly, there are a lot of cardiology cases now that PCIs, percutaneous interventions stents can be done in ASCs. Clearly, there's a ton of this that over time can move to a more cost-appropriate setting. That's going to be just like joints. We started this joint journey several years back, and we're now seeing the fruits of kind of the movement. I think it will take some time. Cardiologists want to get comfortable with higher acuity cases, want to start with lower acuity, kind of cardiac rhythm management and pacers that -- those kind of cases. But I do think over time, that's a tremendous opportunity, one that we want to work on. It'll be kind of paced by 2 things. One is, again, just clinical comfort. There's a lot of cardiologists who've never worked outside of a hospital, right? And so that takes a little time. But number 2, it's a very heavily employed market. And so structurally, even physicians who want to move into this space, there might be some limitations in the short term. But that's kind of the next way. But I look at our other businesses, and I do want to reiterate, we look at GI and ophthalmology, general surgery, there's still a lot of opportunities in those spaces. There's still high-growth businesses. So across our portfolio, we feel good. Clearly, our focus is in MSK right now, and we're starting to really build the early stages of cardiology. And I don't know, Tom, if you want to add anything into that?

No, you covered it well.

All right. Great. And then I guess one of the things that we've seen broadly speaking, is that, obviously, COVID had some negative impacts as far as total surgeries being done. But at the same time, it feels like there's been some shift to surgery centers out of the hospital setting as a result of COVID, whether it was just comfort or convenience or in some cases, hospitals had holds on surgeries when surgery centers didn't. How do you think about the persistency of the volume that's shifted into the surgery center? Is -- will you be able to keep most of that? Or should we expect a decent amount of that to end up back in the hospital?

It's a great question. I'll start with saying that I'm really proud of how our facility serve as a safe haven during the pandemic. I mean ultimately, because we're really purpose-built and we don't try to be all things to all people. We could really, really focus in on driving focus on elective surgeries. And so you're correct that we did see some migration. And certainly, we're seeing even our existing physicians more comfortable bringing higher acuity procedures to our facilities. We have seen over time that we are pretty sticky when physicians experience what it's like to work in our facilities, right? We're efficient, they don't get bumps. They can have really good use of their time, plus they have the opportunity to really be part of the strategy. We're small enough place where they get it really have a lot of input. That tends to be a way to retain physicians. And so we've had really great luck once people try us with keeping them. I would also say that the proof points of the higher acuity procedures we've been doing over the last year, you can't put that back in the can, right? It's worked really well. Like I mean it's out. Docs know they can do it. They can do it safely. We have really good policies and procedures and follow-up for those patients. And so I expect that, that movement not only will be sticky, but that I think in the future, you're going to see that, hopefully, probably accelerate a bit more than it was prior to the pandemic.

Yes. No, that makes sense. And I guess one of the things that you've been doing during the pandemic, which has been surprising to me a little bit is how successful you've been is just you've been recruiting a lot of doctors during the pandemic. I guess I might have thought that so we might have made it harder to meet doctors, convince them to switch, et cetera. So talk a little bit about how you've been doing that and maybe COVID has been a tailwind to, I guess, or I could have been wrong about that.

Yes. It's interesting. And certainly, it's harder to get into an office to see physicians for recruitment, right? So you're right, the in-person is tougher. Although there was a period of time, obviously, where physicians had a bit more time to think about what they wanted to do, right? So they weren't able to do some of the procedures they had historically done. But even -- so yes, you're right. We had really great success during COVID. And I'd say even in the first quarter, we've kept that trend growing, right, growing our total recruitment, our total new docs coming to our centers by over 25%. So we look at this -- it's a couple fold. One is we've really invested in a team there. As you probably know, we had one of our operators, Tony Taparo, who was running a big part of our ASC. So he's moved into a Chief Growth Officer role. We built out a very data-driven focused team looking at which physicians -- who are the best physicians in our markets and how do we tell them our story? I mean, the good news is our story is quite good, right? So highly efficient, saves money for your patients. They have really high satisfaction. And so the story is easy to tell. And then if we can get them to come into experience it, they tend to want to stay. So I think in many ways, it's selling something that's quite attractive already. And then you have the extra added emphasis of this experience that many positions just went through when they didn't necessarily have access to take their patients somewhere. So it created another push on that. But we believe, and especially when you start adding in cardiology and other acute services over time, we believe there's still a tremendous amount of physicians for us to go out and attract and add to our facilities. We've also been quite good, as we've gone through this, and you've heard us talk about this some and making sure we add capacity at the right moment, making sure that we're not caught off guard by the physician growth that aren't able to service their needs. But look, we're able to give them often more efficiency, better block times, really make their lives easier, and we expect that story to continue to resonate.

Yes. And I guess, how do you think about capacity? Because you talk about a lot of lower acuity stuff not being done. You bring all these new doctors in and then when volume returns to the doctors who've been part of this for a while, you have the capacity? Or should we be expecting more of these capacity expansions that you just mentioned?

Yes, we do. And Tom, maybe you've done a lot of work on this, I know, around our capacity and how we think through dollars per minute and how we prioritize things. Maybe walk a little bit through our capacity analysis and where we -- how we look at them?

Yes. Happy to. So a couple of things, and you've heard us talk about this before, Kevin, right? We've done analysis on where we make the most dollars per minute of operating room time, right? And it's not that we're measuring -- it's not that we're managing by the minute. Well, sometimes we are. It's really just -- that was the most -- that was the lowest common denominator block to kind of just get it across the board. And what we see is that the higher implant business -- the higher acuity implant businesses generate more dollars of contribution margin per minute than the lower acuity business, even though the percentage margin on the implant business is lower because of the pass-through of the implant, it's generating more dollars of contribution margin. So in the unlikely event that we were actually squeezing out lower acuity cases to these higher acuity cases, that's still a good thing for the enterprise. That said, as you think about capacity, you need to realize that we're a Monday through Friday kind of business, right? We are elective, scheduled surgeries for the vast majority of what we do. And we tend to be more full on Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday than we are on Thursday and Friday, right? And that's just the nature of the business. And so as you think about how do I add capacity, and where I might add my closest to my capacity? I probably have some facilities that don't have a tremendous amount of extra capacity in the month of December. Why? Because they're already opening on Saturdays, they're already potentially opening on Sundays. They're already potentially staying openly . And those are the types of places as we think about the capacity utilization over the course of the year, then we say, hey, do we need a new facility here? Do we need a new OR? Do we need to think about buying an ASC down the street and taking some acuity and shifting it down there? Or what is it that we need to do to try to enhance our capacity to be able to do more cases for our doctors in those facilities? And we have those conversations every week. But as you think about most of the rest of the year, we have the ability to stay open late. That adds additional capacity almost instantaneously. We have the capacity to fill more of the schedule on Thursdays and Fridays, which tend to be lighter days. And if you just want to say, hey, whatever your capacity is Monday through Friday, if I open Saturday, I have 20% more capacity. And I will tell you, as we've been ramping back up in certain geographies, we found a lot of docs that -- and it's a lot of the same ones that are willing to work weekends as we get into November and December that are willing to work weekends now to kind of get through some of their backlog, right? And so we are not as -- we're not concerned about our ability to handle these cases. And we've been planning for years in building to be able to enhance our capacity. And so we -- one of the first projects that we did back in 2018, we took one of our largest ASCs. We moved into a brand-new space. I think we've got was it 5 operating rooms at Millennia?

Yes.

So it's one of our larger ASCs. We opened a brand-new ASC in St. Charles. We're opening a brand-new ASC at the end of the month in Ashville, where already we're struggling with block time because we've got so much new demand in that facility where we've added a couple of ORs. We've got projects that are just green lit in another southeastern geography to do another 2 OR expansion. We're looking at doing another expansion at one of our surgical hospitals. We're constantly in the pipeline of trying to evaluate where our capacity constraints and needs are. And we've also added multiple ORs to a handful of our other surgical hospitals over the course of the last couple of years, including [indiscernible] in North Carolina. We've done a lot as we've looked at some of our better-performing facilities that are closer to capacity to build that out because it takes -- depending upon the state, you could take a CON. You might also need -- or it could take 9 to 12 months before you can bring capacity online, and so we've tried to be really proactive about that. And the additional flexibility that we get through the refinancing of our credit agreement to be able to go out and do a lot of that work on expansions with landlord-financed dollars or with locally financed dollars is just in hand. So we feel really good about that.

Okay. No, that's great. And then I guess when you think about all these physicians that you're recruiting, where are they coming from? I mean, I guess it's been a while now that there's been more surgery centers than hospitals in the country. And so you might think that any doctor who's had -- who wanted to be part of the surgery center and had that opportunity. So how are you getting them and where are you getting them? Any color on that?

Yes. So surprisingly, there are still our docs who have, over the years, stayed primarily at hospitals or maybe they've used a surgery center that's either an HOPD or a place where they haven't taken ownership. We do a pretty good job with our data of understanding who's still independent. And some docs who have maybe tried employment now they're independent again. There's a lot of reasons that they're still available for investment. But we continue to see a bunch of docs. And you're right, there are, obviously, 5,000, 6,000 surgery centers but there's still a tremendous amount of opportunity to move and primarily from the acute care setting, not always. There are times where a physician is increasing acuity or they want to just -- in some cases, we even have hospital system partners who are actively moving lower acuity stuff out to create capacity, whether that's in cardiology, moving out some of their CRM cases so they can do more cath labs. So in some cases, we're doing it in partnership with the local health system, where they're making a conscious choice not to invest additional money in OR capacity to service lower acuity things that should be done in an outpatient setting. We're also seeing some rationalization, I think, of capital spending on the health system side. But in general, there's still quite a few physicians out there that have that opportunity. And then we also -- we work with our local groups to recruit new physicians in. As you know, in many markets, there's still a need for physicians. You don't have enough capacity. And so it's also working with our independent groups to grow their practices over time as we gain market share. So it's a combination of both. Sometimes it's new docs to the market. A lot of times, though, it is still those physicians who have maybe stayed for whatever reason in the traditional acute care setting that now understand both from patient demand, for cost reasons or patient satisfaction reasons, they want to make a change.

That's interesting. And then I guess you mentioned earlier, Eric, the comment about double-digit growth and your ability to kind of drive that. Can you just kind of walk us through that algorithm for double-digit growth? And how long do you think that -- at least for long term, like how long do you think this could continue?

Yes. So I'll walk you through the big portions of it, and then we can talk about kind of like we do think the runway is quite extended. So if you think about just our business, we think about the core growth, 4% to 6% a year just on volume and rate. So 2% to 3% cases, 2% to 3% revenue. We have outperformed the 2% to 3% revenue for a number of reasons, including acuity. We have been focused on our managed care rates to make sure we're paid dearly. We'll never be a price leader, but we also don't want to be too deep discount. So we've been working through that. So we feel like on that 4% to 6%, we're actually outperforming, right? Especially the last couple of years. And with acuity growth, the revenue opportunity is probably quite a bit bigger than 2% to 3% for a number of you. You've got another, let's call it, 2% to 3%, that is just core operating system. Like how do we get better as a platform, it's driving better revenue cycles performance, better supply chain performance, efficiencies, learning from our platform, and that's been consistent for us. If you look at those 2 buckets, and we've been able, the last couple of years, even though we've had some M&A, it's been mainly kind of shifting, replacing noncore stuff, which great news about our business today is we're out of everything that's not short stay surgical, right? So kind of switching that out. We've been growing double digits purely organically, right? And so we look at that and we say, okay, this year, obviously, we did an equity raise earlier in the year. We're excited to be able to go really play offense in what is an extremely fragmented market with still very attractive valuations. And so we add on top of that the opportunity to invest $200 million, $300 million a year into the system. We've said we believe that our growth becomes kind of low to mid-teens, right? So we think that's sustainable. And then you look at why do we think that's sustainable for multiple years? Well, we're in the early innings of orthopedics, right? We've seen quite a bit of that move, but there's still a lot to come. Both orthopedics, including hips and knees, but also spine. And as those groups grow and as our value proposition becomes more apparent, the health plans and there's more steerage, we just think that, that's naturally going to be a growth engine for us for quite some time. And then other -- our other key service lines are really driven by demographics. We think about ophthalmology and GI, all of those continue to be pretty good growth engines for us, and then cardiology on top of that over the next several years. So we look at core organic growth, we've been growing double digits. We are adding to that this idea of continuing to consolidate the industry. And there's over 4,000 ASCs out there that are still independent or maybe with -- maybe partner with one hospital that are options for us to really go help drive value. And so our outlook over the next near to midterm to long term, actually, we think there's a long runway for this kind of growth. I don't know, Tom, you may want to add a few more specifics but...

No. I mean, the only thing that I would just remind you of is we've got an asset right now that's not really contributing that we think has the potential to do $25 million plus of EBITDA, right? And that's Idaho Falls Community Hospital. So as you think about the bridge over the course of the next 2 to 3 years, you've got to remember that you've got a big contribution from that organic project, right? And those are the types of things that we -- that's the biggest scale project that we've done, at least in my tenure, I think probably in a very long time at this company. But those are the types of things that we continue to do and invest in to help continue to push that organic threshold back to that double-digit rate, even if folks I know want to revert back to that mean of 4% to 6%. But as we continue to do those types of expansions, we continue to push on managed care, we continue to push on acuity. We think that we have the ability to sustain that double-digit [ rate ] organically for a good time.

Well, and Kevin, big picture, I should step back and say, we've talked about our total addressable market. The outpatient surgery market is like $90 billion today. There's another $60 billion and most of that being cardio and orthopedics that's going to transition over the next several years. So you just -- you think in terms of kind of big picture market opportunity. There's still a lot of stuff that needs to go to the right place that will save the health system billions of dollars, and we think we're extremely well positioned in those key areas to capture market share.

Yes. And I guess, we talk about the 2% to 3% kind of EBITDA growth from leverage. Is this more about just kind of leveraging fixed cost leverage on top line growth? Or are there still actual areas of like, hey, you guys have done a lot over the last 3 years or so, taking costs out of the system, building the infrastructure that you can scale. Is there still actual cost opportunities? Or is it more about steady state? If you can go to top line 6%, you should be able to get leverage out of that.

Yes. I think we're getting closer to steadier state, but we've got quite a bit of opportunity still in supply chain that we're working through. I mean, I think about like we are -- as we grow in cardiology, we've got a lot of supply chain opportunities in cardiology implants. We've done a really nice job on orthopedic implants, but there's still room to go there going forward. So we're constantly working on supply chain. Revenue cycle, we still have opportunities. I mean, Tom, we've done a lot of great things to kind of build this platform, but there's still significant opportunities for us to do a better job there. And we're making rapid progress. I would say that when I -- every rock we turn over, there's opportunities when you have a platform that's big. And I would also tell you, as we add facilities, that leverage just increases, right? Because we basically can take the effect of multiple down by just how we operate centers. So we still see that 2% to 3% for a while, contributing. I mean, I don't see there's any -- I can tell you right now, I actually -- absolutely expect to get that this year half of what we expect to get in 2022. No reason to believe that there's not multiple years of opportunities as we continue to get smarter and get more mature as an operating system. I don't know, Tom, if there's anything you would add to that.

Kevin, we have done a lot. But you got to remember, this is a business built through a series of big and small roll-up acquisitions over the course of nearly 20 years, right? And so while we have done -- we have made significant progress -- I say this to the team a lot. This is kind of like Sesame Street, right? One of these things is not like the other. And so our job is not to centralize everything. Our job is to standardize everything and so as we get things closer to the medium, we just start to look at the outliers and think about how it is that we can improve the performance or improve the G&A efficiency or improve the rev cycle or improve the procurement or improve the rate. There's just -- there's a tremendous amount of opportunities still in just standardizing the way that we do things across our portfolio, which is independent by nature, but which can achieve significant efficiencies still through that standardization of best practices.

All right. That's great. I guess you mentioned at the M&A kind of upside and $100 million of cash on the balance sheet. How do you think about multiples? And how quickly would you expect to be able to deploy that cash?

Yes. So we're seeing multiples that are in the range of what we've seen historically, right? We've talked about this before. Typically, around 7 is kind of where we've been historically. We see attractive multiples still in the market, both below that and above that, depending on the mix of business, but very competitive with where it's been historically. We have -- I think the update now is we have a $140 million plus under LOI. We do expect to be able to -- we're highly confident we'll exceed our -- or will hit our $200-plus million investment opportunity this year and we continue to see a rich pipeline. As you know, M&A can be fickle. So I don't want to -- deal's never done until it's done, but we continue to get new opportunities every week. We continue to see lots of great positions to partner with that we feel like have a lot of upside. And so we're quite excited about the pipeline and not only this year, but looking into the future of just how much opportunity there is for us to grow our core business. And then again, bring those assets into our platform and drive additional value. That's really the key here. In some cases, you can imagine going into a multi-specialty center that hasn't yet had the resources or the expertise to launch a joint program. Those are perfect for us because we have a program, we can add that on, it adds acuity, it adds revenue, it brings more opportunities to recruit new physicians. And so we bring that to ASCs. On our hospital side, we obviously have deep experience on surgical hospitals. So we see that pipeline being quite strong. And certainly, we expect -- there's nothing that tells us we shouldn't be able to hit -- to continue the past multiples they're very attractive based on where we sit. And we continue to want to invest as quickly as we can in those areas on good deals.

All right. And then maybe the last question as we're out of time here. I guess we're asking most companies this. COVID has changed a lot of things for a lot of people and how companies work and how health care is performed. How do you think COVID has impacted you? And I guess more importantly, what things do you expect to persist that you're doing today as a result of COVID?

So I think, in many ways, COVID just accelerated trends that were already happening, right? So if I think about just -- in the big picture, naturally, things are moving to the lowest possible -- or the best possible side, the lowest cost side to deliver great quality. And so that was happening pre-COVID. I think it's certainly, in some ways, accelerated that and accelerated the opportunities both for health plans, patients and payers that we provide. So I think that stays. Look, we got more efficient through the downturn. I think we got a little better at day-to-day management of our ORs. We've got a little bit of insight on better ways to manage block scheduling. We expect some of those things to persist. We're seeing some of those things persist. So I think -- and also, I would just say, kudos to our organization. We showed a ton of resilience. It was obviously a tough time for everyone across the country. But our physicians, our staff showed just the perseverance and resilience of our model. It's a very flexible model. We reacted -- we quickly had to react to a downturn. We were able to bounce back quickly. And I think we learned a lot about our company and our ability to withstand really hard challenges and come out of it growing and stronger.

All right. Great. I think that's all the time we have time for...

Hey, Kevin. Can I do one [indiscernible] portion. I missed ophthalmology is actually up kind of mid-single digits versus 2019. It's really the general surgery categories, the pain management and the GI, where I think we've got the most opportunity for rebound. Apologies on that.

Okay. Yes. No problem. That's great. So yes, thanks -- I want to thank everyone for joining us today, and I'm looking forward to doing this in-person in Vegas next year.

Sounds great, Kevin. Look forward to it. Thank you.

Thanks.