Symrise AG (SY1) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Ladies and gentlemen, welcome for -- thank you for attending the Investor and Analyst Conference Call on the publication of Symrise key figures full year 2024. I am Josef, the Chorus Call operator. [Operator Instructions] The conference is being recorded. The conference must not be recorded for publication or broadcast. At this time, it's my pleasure to hand over to Rene Weinberg, Head of Investor Relations. Please go ahead.

Thank you very much, Josef. My name is Rene Weinberg, and I'm the new Head of IR for Symrise since the beginning of January. I would like to welcome everybody in the call or in the live stream to our presentation of the results of 2024. Good to have you all in the meeting. We published all related documents on our web page this morning in the section, Financial Results, where you probably entered the live stream to this meeting. With me today are: Jean-Yves Parisot, our CEO; and our CFO, Olaf Klinger. After the review of 2024 numbers and the outlook for 2025, we will open the line for questions. With this, I hand over to Jean-Yves. Please go ahead.

Thank you, Rene. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome. Welcome also from my side, and I'm delighted that so many of you have taken the time to join our call today. Before I start, let me mention that we are very happy that Rene is back. He is starting -- he started his career within Symrise in Finance and IR more than 10 years ago. Later on, Rene worked in different industries in IR. And since beginning of the year, he decided to join us again. So welcome back. As all of you have noticed, this year, we have a different timing in publishing our financial results 2024, which are at this early stage today, preliminary. Since our full year results presentation, including the sustainability, remuneration, corporate governance and financial report is scheduled to be released March 27, 3 weeks later than we did in the past year, we, the Symrise Executive Board decided to publish our key financials already at this time. Hence to give an overview about our financial performance 2024. The reason for the later publication date in March is simply the much wider and deeper ESG reporting requirements coming from the Corporate Sustainability Reporting Directive, in short, the CSRD, which takes for a German stock-listed company much greater efforts as far as completion and auditing of the reports are concerned. Today, I will highlight the 2024 results. Olaf will provide a deep dive into the financials, and I conclude with an outlook for the year ahead. Let us first look at our results 2024, starting with the financial highlights on Chart 4 of our presentation. 2024 was marked by strong business growth in a once again challenging environment. The economy continued to face ongoing geopolitical changes, high inflation rates, which intensifies the pressure on every business. On the other side, our diversified portfolio, combined with our broad regional presence and customer base yet again enable us to continue on our strong growth path even in these difficult times. What did we achieve in 2024? Let's look at the important KPIs. We grew organically by 8.7%. In reporting currency, the growth was 5.7% to around EUR 5 billion. EBITDA grew by 14.4% to more than EUR 1 billion. First time in our history that we reached the level of EUR 1 billion in profitability. The EBITDA margin came out of 20.7%. This was much stronger than last year's, and the profitability increase was based on an improved product mix and increased volumes in combination with a strict cost management. Net income of EUR 478 million was more than 40% above previous year, which corresponds to EUR 3.42 per share. We have delivered double-digit growth with our bottom line performance, which clearly shows the turnaround versus last year. As I said, Olaf will give you more explanation in a few minutes. Now let's take a look at our sales growth on Chart 5. Group sales increased to around EUR 5 billion, including the EUR 38 million negative sales impact coming from the divestiture of the U.K. beverage trading business. On the downside, we also experienced a negative ForEx effect of minus EUR 104 million. Organically, the Group achieved strong growth of 8.7%, driven by both segments. With this, we outperformed the market growth, and we also outperformed our midterm organic sales guidance of 5% to 7%. In both segments, we enjoyed good growth momentum and increased volumes as Slide 6 illustrates. The Taste, Nutrition & Health segment generated sales of more than EUR 3 billion. Organic growth amounted to a strong 7.8%. The growth driver was our Pet Food business, which grew in the high-single percentage range. Food & Beverage applications showed excellent high growth rates also. The segment benefited once again from broadening competencies beyond Flavor & Nutrition. Our Scent & Care segment also performed very well. Sales rose to above EUR 1.9 billion. The organic growth came in at a double-digit rate of 10.2%. Fragrances and Cosmetic Ingredients are experiencing ongoing strong business dynamics. The sales in Aroma Molecules recovered very significantly, especially in EMEA and North America with double-digit growth. Let's move now to the development of our regions on Chart 7. We grew across all regions with Latin America and EMEA being the strongest on delivering organic growth of more than 15% and respectively, more than 10%. Asia Pacific also generated good organic growth of more than 9%. And after a decline in North America last year, we returned to a growth with a rate of 1.5%. Overall, we can report a very sustainable performance, as you can see on Chart 8, with constant strong growth and a significantly improved profitability in 2024 after the setback in 2023. As our history shows, we operate a very resilient and robust business model. Since our IPO in 2006, we have delivered an annual compound sales growth of 8.1%. Allow me here to thank all our Symrisers around the world for their teamwork, commitment and dedication. We all can be very proud of what we have achieved together as ONE Symrise. And let me stop here for the moment and hand over to Olaf, who will provide you now the details on our financials. Olaf?

Thanks. Thank you, Jean-Yves, and a warm welcome to everybody on the phone also from my side. Let's start with our agenda for today. I will explain our preliminary key financial figures for 2024 in more detail. On Chart 10, let me add some details on our growth. The year 2024 saw a strong volume environment compared to a pricing-driven year 2023. Our organic growth of 8.7% for 2024 was driven by an 8.9% increase in volume. The pricing environment was negative by minus 0.8%, but almost offset by the effects from hyperinflation-related pricing of plus 0.6%, driven by Argentina. The organic growth, excluding hyperinflation, was 8.1%. We brought our U.K. trading business into a joint venture effective March 1 last year as part of our portfolio optimization. This divestiture resulted in a EUR 38 million reduction of sales or a negative 0.8% impact on our overall top line performance. FX continued to be a headwind, contributing a negative impact of EUR 104 million, representing a headwind of 2.2%. The impact was attributable to multiple currencies. Let us turn our attention to the sales development in Q4. As communicated throughout the year, we saw a strong negative headwind coming in Q4 related to a drastic devaluation of the Euro, Argentinian Peso FX rate in December 2023. The organic growth in Q4 was 0.9%, negatively influenced by hyperinflation-related pricing of minus 5% or minus EUR 55 million. Excluding the effects from hyperinflation-related pricing, organic growth was a solid 5.9% in Q4. This organic growth consisted of minus 0.6% pricing and 6.5% volume-related growth. So we saw a continuation of what we saw in the first 9 months. For those of you who are interested in the technical details, we have included a more detailed explanation in the backup of this presentation on hyperinflation accounting. Given the currency development in Argentina in 2024, we do not expect any mentionable effect from the application of hyperinflation accounting in 2025. The divestiture of the U.K. trading business contributed a portfolio effect of minus 0.9% or EUR 10 million and FX added 4.8% or EUR 54 million, resulting in a reported growth of 4.9% for the fourth quarter. Please turn now to the Group profitability on Slide 11. As Jean-Yves already highlighted, the year 2024 was a year of strong turnaround in our profitability. We have reached double-digit growth in gross profit, EBITDA and EBIT. Important drivers of the strong earnings performance were primarily attributable to the strong volume growth and the successful execution of our efficiency program. Gross profit improved by 12.9% to EUR 1.963 billion. This growth is primarily driven by the fact that our cost of goods sold increased at a slower pace than our sales revenues. This positive development resulted in a 250 basis points improvement in our gross margin, rising from 36.8% to 39.3%. Our broad-based efficiency program paid off. We realized the full cost savings of EUR 50 million until the end of the year. With an EBITDA of EUR 1.033 billion, we passed the EUR 1 billion mark for the first time. The EBITDA margin increased to 20.7%, which is 160 basis points above previous year's adjusted EBITDA margin. The EBIT increased by 17.4%, reaching EUR 718 million in 2024. Our EBIT margin of 14.4% is showing a 150 basis points increase versus last year. Moving to Chart 12. In 2024, we started the efficiency program early in the year with the clear goal of saving EUR 50 million to secure the return to an EBITDA margin above 20%. This was achieved through a combination of various measures, which included both structural changes and first lasting efficiency out of the ONE SYM program. All targeted areas contributed to this success, EUR 28 million from TN&H, EUR 18 million from Scent & Care, and EUR 4 million from Corporate. And we can assure you that with our new profitable growth guidance, our cost discipline will remain while we shift our focus from pure cost savings towards lasting efficiency gains going forward. Let us move to Taste, Nutrition & Health on Slide 13. Taste Nutrition & Health delivered 7.8% organic growth. This performance was driven by volume growth of 7.2%, reflecting robust demand across both our Food & Beverage and Pet Food division. Hyperinflation impacted TN&H more than Scent & Care. We saw a slight positive hyperinflation-related impact of 0.8%. Pricing was slightly negative for the segment, mainly driven by Pet Nutrition. Food & Beverage developed very positively with high single-digit growth, driven by Savory, Sweet and also Specialty Beverages. Food & Beverage continued to see a strong positive momentum in the course of Q4. Pet Food experienced challenging market conditions, but still achieved good volume growth. Pet Palatability showed a high single-digit organic growth rate, mostly related to volume growth. Pet Nutrition experienced price-driven negative growth due to ongoing challenging market conditions in EMEA as well as in North America. The TN&H EBITDA increased by 9.5% to EUR 686 million. This represents an EBITDA margin of 22.2%. The increase is mainly due to profitable sales growth and the support of our efficiency program. The EBIT saw an increase of 8.7%, reaching EUR 463 million. This represents an EBIT margin of 15% for the year, which compares to 14.3% for the last year. Let's turn to Scent & Care on Slide 14. Scent & Care achieved 10.2% organic growth in 2024, with all 3 divisions experienced high single or even double-digit volume increases. The segment saw a slight pricing decline driven by Aroma Molecules and more specifically by terpenes. This was partially offset by a small positive impact from hyperinflation. In 2024, our Fragrance business enjoyed a double-digit sales growth in Consumer Fragrances as well as high single-digit growth in Fine Fragrances. The positive momentum continued in Q4 with high single-digit sales growth. Aroma Molecules sales development recovered significantly in full year 2024 due to the resumption of production in Colonels Island. Cosmetic Ingredients posted high single-digit growth. The application areas for microprotection and active botanicals recorded the strongest growth rates. At the moment, we see an ongoing positive momentum in Cosmetic Ingredients. However, the relative growth trend will be challenging due to high comparables in the first half of 2025, especially for UV filters. The EBITDA of the Scent & Care segment increased by a strong 25.4% to EUR 347 million, lifting the EBITDA margin by 240 basis points to 18.2% versus the adjusted EBITDA margin of 15.8% in 2023. The increase is mainly due to profitable sales growth and the support from our efficiency program, Elevate 27. Let's move to Slide 15 to discuss our bottom line. The EBIT grew by 28.3%. Our financial result improved by EUR 22 million to minus EUR 72 million. This was mainly due to lower interest expenses in connection with financing around EUR 7 million, as well as interest on pension provisions, around EUR 8 million and lower net losses from hyperinflation-related adjustments of around EUR 10 million, particularly in Argentina. We also continued our progress in tax efficiency, reducing our tax rate to 25.4%, a decrease of 40 basis points in 2024. This moves us closer to the lower end of our midterm tax rate guidance of 25% to 27%. The net income saw an increase of EUR 138 million compared to last year, reaching EUR 478 million. The key driver for this is our strong operating result. This represents a 40.5% increase of our EPS to now EUR 3.42 per share. As we are presenting preliminary figures, it is too early at this point to propose a dividend for the reporting period as of now. Please move to Slide 16 for the working capital and CapEx. The increase in working capital is primarily driven by the growth in trade receivables, which aligns with the overall sales growth. Additionally, there has been a slight increase in inventories for strategic stock buildup. However, working capital remains a key focus area with management placing a strong emphasis on controlling payment terms and overdue accounts. Efforts are also being ramped up to reduce inventories, ensuring a more efficient use of working capital going forward to meet our targets in line with our ONE Symrise strategy. Coming to the investments. Our important Scent & Care projects are progressing as planned and remain on track. However, there has been a reduction in spending on TN&H projects, particularly in the areas like Pet Food and Food & Beverage, where we saw certain delays in authority permits. In addition, we are closely aligning our investments with market demand evolution. The investments in IT have been increased to drive digitalization efforts, which will further enhance operational efficiency and future growth potential. All investments aiming at expanding capacity and adopting new technologies are being continuously monitored to ensure alignment with our strategic goals and efficiency program. Moving forward to the business free cash flow on Page 17. We have significantly improved our business free cash flow by more than EUR 127 million to EUR 680 million. This represents now 13.6% of sales compared to 11.7% in 2023 ending well above our guidance. This improvement was primarily driven by the strong operating performance and decreasing CapEx spending to EUR 231 million. Improvement of working capital continues to be a strong focus. The business free cash flow level is clearly exceeding the 12% for 2025, which we guided. For 2025, our ambition for the business free cash flow is around 14% of sales for the midterm above 14%. Please move to our net debt development on Slide 18. Our net debt, including pension provisions and leasing obligations to EBITDA ratio is reduced to 2.3x. Following the reduction of net debt after a series of acquisitions in the last years, we are now back within our midterm net debt guidance, which is 2x to 2.5x EBITDA, including pension and leasing obligations. Our debt profile remains strong, supporting a very solid investment-grade rating. In conclusion, following a disappointing year 2023, we have presented today a strong set of figures, bringing us clearly back on track to reach our midterm ambitions. And with this, I would like to hand back to Jean-Yves. Thank you.

Thank you very much, Olaf. So ladies and gentlemen, let us look now at some key market trends on Chart 20, which will impact product offerings. Consumers more and more care about holistic well-being and healthy nutrition. Healthy solutions will play a much greater role for the aging population. And for those of you who attended our Capital Market Day in November in Holzminden, they know that under the concept of ONE Care, we are building and leveraging strong competencies to answer this increasing demand. Pet Food. Pet Food represents a strong and unique division within Symrise. Pets are today an integrated member of families. healthy Pet Food, alternative protein and also functional properties will lead to a bigger variety of products in both the premium as well as the mass market category. Another aspect of a changing consumption habit is sustainability. We all care much more about our eco-friendly products and technologies. We care about our resources and therefore, want to fully understand our supply chain as well as our development and innovation processes for a long-term sustainable business success. And the key lever for change is digitalization. The use of AI in all we do is key to leverage efficiencies. And in addition, digitalization is a door opener for us for new routes to markets. In Slide 21, in reflection of market trends, consumer need and the understanding of consumer expectations, we have defined our ONE Symrise strategy to unleash the full beauty of Symrise. Our 3 pillars remain in place. Under growth, we build a strong ONE Innovation ecosystem. We are also implementing best practices and adapt the organization to ensure a high level of efficiency across all processes and functions. And we will continue to build a strong portfolio to meet the market trends in a fast-growing and profitable areas. The creation of the ONE Care approach is ongoing in that direction. And sustainability, digitalization and people will be the strong drivers to achieve our goals. In Chart 22, I will show you what we mean with ONE Care. Cosmetic Ingredients are recognized and highly valued competence with a unique and broad portfolio within Scent & Care. In Taste, Nutrition & Health, we developed a wide range of active health solutions. In addition, we are starting the process to integrate Probi, a leader in probiotic and health solutions, which will be an important platform to drive innovations. By bundling our strengths, we will be able to develop innovations for holistic solutions for health, well-being and beauty, a future differentiator and growth driver for Symrise. Let me now draw your attention to the outlook 2025 on Chart 23. Symrise is well positioned to continue to deliver growth above market growth. Therefore, we are confirming an organic growth ambition of 5% to 7% for 2025, in line with our midterm guidance. Despite a slightly tougher start into the year coming from high comparables from the previous year, we are confident to achieve our targets. For 2025, we also expect in the current business environment and through the execution of our transformation process and efficiency program, an EBITDA margin of around 21%. In the medium term until 2028 on Chart 24, we are targeting an organic sales growth of 5% to 7%. Concerning the EBITDA, we are aiming for a margin in the range between 21% to 23% for the midterm. And for the business free cash flow, a ratio in relation to sales of about 14% is targeted. Let me conclude on Chart 25 with a short summary of some key highlights. First, we have done our homework to position Symrise in order to best leverage the market trends and at the same time, deliver our financial targets. And we will further strengthen our portfolio, as just explained. Secondly, for orchestrating the change, we implemented a transformation office. As key transition enablers, we reshaped key corporate functions as IT, Sustainability, Regulatory and Quality. In addition, we created new functions and started the recruitment of a Chief Procurement Officer as well as a Chief Operation Officer. Thirdly, for sure, we will further continue to invest in capacities, technologies and improve our working capital. And last but not least, bolt-on acquisitions have been and will be part of our strategy execution to strengthen our competitiveness and to accelerate our transformation process towards a recognized innovation leader delivering financial targets. I thank you very much. And now I would like to open the call for your questions.

Many thanks, Jean-Yves. Many thanks, Olaf. After the instruction from our operator, we are happy to take the questions. Ideally limit it to 2 questions each. Thank you, and please go ahead.

[Operator Instructions] The first question comes from the line of Nicola Tang from BNP Paribas.

Two questions then. Did I hear you, Jean-Yves, at the end say that you had a light start to the year due to comparables? Just checking if I heard it correctly. And maybe could you give more color, give us a walk around the divisions in the world in terms of what you're seeing so far? And then secondly, on margins and your margin outlook for around 21%. I think, if you adjust for some of the onetime effects in H1 last year, the adjusted margins were around 21% anyway. And I think even on a reported basis, you're not far away from the 21%. So can you explain why you don't expect more of a sequential improvement in margin, especially bearing in mind some of the comments you made around ONE Symrise plan and the sustainability of some of the efficiencies that you realized through last year?

Thank you, Nicola. So I will start with the comparables. So last year, we -- in 2024, we had a very strong beginning of the year. And so we are also this year having a good year, but the comparables are a fact, right? So for me, the most important is to speak about the commitment to deliver 5% to 7% growth. We always delivered our commitments, and we always were in the guidance in terms of top line. So I see absolutely no problem to deliver this 5% to 7% growth. The phasing will be certainly different from last year, but the full year will be -- will have a picture as described. Now concerning the margin of 21%. I will come back to 1 year ago; 1 year ago, we start with a restated EBITDA of 19% around, and we committed to deliver more than 20%, and we finished at 20.7%, which is a very good turnaround, as mentioned by Olaf. So even if there are onetime effects, you could say that, okay, the onetime effect deduction could move us to more than 21%. What I commit with the team is to deliver around 21%. And believe us, if we can deliver more than 21%, we would deliver more than 21%. The idea is to deliver a very strong profitability, meanwhile, putting the right investment for the [ restructuration ] for the improvement of our way of working and meanwhile, continue to invest for our customers in terms of R&D, in terms of innovation and always delivering the best quality products. So for me, I also feel comfortable with this margin target of 21%. And today, we are at the beginning of the year. So it's much too early to commit to something different than this around 21%.

It's really clear on the margin. I was wondering if you could give us the walk around the world or the divisions in terms of what you've seen so far this year? I realize it's early stage.

The comparables, you mean?

In terms of the -- what you've seen so far across the different divisions from a top line perspective?

Olaf, you want to comment on that?

Yes. Nicola, I think we see a good continuation of the Fragrance dynamics into 2025. We definitely have a strong comparison in Cosmetic Ingredients. That is definitely one of the areas where we talk about a softer start at the moment, naturally, and it's purely related to last year's situation where we started extremely strong. And if I may, then it's also understandable because the summer season was quite soft. There was not a lot of sunshining and UV filters were not of such high demand. So that explains the picture for Scent & Care. For Taste, Nutrition & Health, I think Food & Beverages continues. Nevertheless, also here, we have the comp situation to last year. And Pet Food, I'm sure we will come back to Pet Food later on in the Q&A.

The next question comes from the line of Lisa De Neve from Morgan Stanley.

The first one is a bit on pricing. So can you please share, I mean, what you expect in terms of pricing trends for this year and whether we should assume any ongoing negatives in pricing for Aroma or Pet Nutrition? That's the first question. And secondly, one on portfolio. So can you please share which parts of the portfolio where profitability may still be materially lagging versus the rest of the group? And following up on that one then, where you potentially see scope for incremental portfolio optimization?

Okay. So thanks, Lisa, for the very good question. So concerning the pricing trend and the cost of raw material trends, the pricing trends, our growth will be driven by 2/3 volume, 1/3 price increase. We have seen in the past, we have a very strong pricing power within Symrise with our current portfolio of activities. So now concerning the raw material cost. We see a very light raw material cost increase this year. In any case, we will address it either by increased selling price, either by reformulating or changing the type of geography where we buy the raw materials. But I am myself very confident to keep at least the gross profit. Concerning Pet Nutrition, we have seen that we have some price decrease in Pet Nutrition because the egg prices were going down. So we were having a high egg price increase during -- just after the COVID. So we have increased the prices a lot. Now the prices of the eggs are going down. So we are also adjusting our selling price. Again, without endangering our gross profit. And now concerning the portfolio, there is a big difference between Taste, Nutrition & Health and Scent & Care. You see that very clearly Taste, Nutrition & Health, we are far above the 20% EBITDA margin and Scent & Care, we are below the 20% EBITDA margin. So there is still a room of progression for Taste, Nutrition & Health because we are working on efficiencies, raw materials, indirect yield. So it's all the program of procurement, all the program of operational excellence we are putting in place where we are still -- a big room for improving the margin in Taste, Nutrition & Health. Concerning Scent & Care, your question about the portfolio is a very good question. So we are continuously assessing the activity portfolio, specifically in Scent & Care because you know that this portfolio is a mix of Cosmetic Ingredients activity, Fragrance activity and Aroma Molecules activities, which are very different business models. And we are really assessing permanently these activities. And we will take the right decision at the right time for creating as much value for Symrise and for the customers.

The next question comes from the line of Edward Hockin from JPMorgan.

I've got 2, please. My first one is on the guidance -- coming back on the guidance for 5% to 7% organic sales growth for 2025, given that you've highlighted a bit tough comparables in the first half of the year in Cosmetic Ingredients, and you've been very clear on volume versus pricing split. But what gives you confidence by business segment or by region that, that growth reaccelerates again in the second half of the year to deliver that 5% to 7% for the full year? And my second question, please, on Pet Food, which was double-digit growth for the first 9 months of the year, but then landed high single-digit for the full year, looks like quite some slowdown in Q4. Are you able to separate out, please, how much of that is the effect of FX pricing versus what you see the underlying trend of Pet Food has been through the year, please?

Okay. Good. Thanks for the questions, Edward. So on the 5% to 7% ambition, just as a reminder, what we just heard, 5.9% in Q4. We are still in an environment where we are growing quite strongly, and this is also the expectation for 2025. We're changing a little bit the profile. We expect the price elements to come back. And we also see the volume growth across most parts of the portfolio continuing. The reference we made was to -- probably the first and maybe a little bit the second quarter that the comparables will be quite challenging. And nevertheless, across the portfolio, we see especially the volume growth opportunities, which we have taken in the past. We developed our portfolio, the regional expansion, the innovation part, all this helped. And if you look at our TN&H business, the Food & Beverage business, I think it sticks out compared to the competition, shows clearly that we are kind of an innovation leader. And with the ambition highlighted by Jean-Yves, ONE Care will play a major role going forward where we come up with more innovation potential. adding to what we can offer to customers. So this is clearly the 5% to 7% ambition which we have for both segments, and we will continue to go after this. We have not changed our mindset in this regard. On the Pet Food, the double digit or the high single in the fourth quarter. Jean-Yves wants to take that question. I hand it over to him if he prefers to have it and take it.

Okay. So concerning Pet Food because I think it's a very valid question about Pet Food. Pet Food, historically, we are coming from Palatability. And now as you all know, we are selling Palatability and Nutrition offers. So we are in a strong and resilient market, Pet Nutrition, Pet Food, right? And we continue to take market shares. So we are really on the ground, and we continue to take market share. And as I told, there is a shift from global account to regional and local accounts. So the trend is there, and we will continue to at least overperform the market. Concerning nutrition, as also I said before, and it is also a very important thing to understand, the egg protein market is also fluctuating, and we have to adjust the selling price. So the volumes are there. The growth in volume is there because the market is growing, but it could be that we are continuing to adjust the prices. So -- but at the end of the day, it should not and it will not endanger the profitability of the business. So Olaf, if you want to complement?

No, I think you answered the question.

The next question comes from the line of Charles Eden from UBS.

A couple of questions from me and the sort of follow-ups on some of the earlier questions, but I'll give them another go. You mentioned the high single-digit organic growth for Pet in '24. Can you help us understand what that organic number was in Q4 specifically, please? And just give that breakdown between volumes and list pricing for Q4, so ignore the FX pricing and hyperinflation pricing. And if you could also confirm what the split is today between Palatability and Nutrition in terms of total Pet sales, that would be helpful. Also on Pet, are you able to give us an indication of where the EBITDA margin is for Pet today? I understand it's a little bit above the 22% margin that you report for Taste, Nutrition & Health for '24. But are we talking 100 basis points, 200 basis points, 500 basis points above that 22% level? Any color you can give here would be much appreciated. And then finally, this is following up on one of the earlier questions. But on Aroma Molecules EBITDA margin today, how far away do you think we are from a fully recovered profitability level in Aroma?

So Charles, nice try, I would say, but that's probably a little bit too far. But to help you, the split between Palatability and the Pet Nutrition business is around 3/4 to 1/4. That should give you an indication. And I give you one more data point also on the Q4. You know that we are not going on divisional level, not on price volume and not on the margin side. But to help you, the picture for price volume in Q4 between the 2 segments was very similar. So we had a slightly negative price. We had in both segments, more than 6% volume growth, very similar to the group of 6.5%. The only difference we saw was on the hyperinflation side where TN&H had a headwind of more than 6%, while the headwind for Scent & Care was around 2%, a little bit more than 2%. So that gives you a little bit more granularity, but please understand that we would like to stay on the segment level with the data points in our area.

The next question comes from the line of Matthew Yates from Bank of America.

A couple of questions, please. Jean-Yves, the biggest delta in your profitability, as you said earlier, versus history is clearly the Scent & Care division. Can you remind me what the status is for the leadership team in that business post Jorn Andreas leaving? And does any management transition impact how much progress you can make in executing on that Elevate 27 strategy near term? And my second question, maybe for Olaf. On your Slide 16, you say that cash conversion and in particular, working capital is a focus for management. I see it in bold to highlight that. Totally I appreciate you had strong revenue growth last year, which obviously ties up some receivables. It seems like you did a decent job in keeping the inventory under control. Can you just talk a little bit about what you think is a realistic target for further improving these metrics as we go through 2025 and maybe elaborate specifically on some of the measures that you're taking to support that?

So thanks, Matthew. I will take the first question, and hand over to Olaf for the second one. Thanks for the question about the Scent & Care leadership situation and transition. Concerning Scent & Care, to make it very clear for everybody, we are still under the search for replacing Jorn Andreas. So I am during this transitionary period, I am taking the interim. And I can tell you that I am very happy to see a very strong leadership team in Scent & Care. The first thing. So the people are really very committed and very professional in the way they are addressing the strategy. And you mentioned Elevate 27. Elevate 27 is more than ever an actuality, right? So what I said also during the last Capital Market Day, we delivered Elevate 27 in 2024. We are also in a very good track for delivering Elevate 27 in 2025 and following years, which will have a double impact in terms of growth because Scent & Care needs to grow and specifically in Fragrances and also in profitability. And as you mentioned, and you all know that we have also a gap in terms of profitability versus some other competitors. So I am very optimistic that the team is making the right job. We are on the right Elevate 27 road map. And I hope to give everybody good news in the coming months for the new year for Scent & Care. That being said, I will hand over to Olaf for the second question.

Yes. Thanks, Matthew. On the working capital side, of course, I'm a little bit disappointed that we only improved slightly last year. I think the ambition for this year will clearly to bring the ratio below 34%. In the mid- to long-run, I think a level of 30% to 32% for Symrise is realistic. That's primarily in the area of inventories and the efficiency program, which we have launched, clearly also will address this situation. Just by looking at the footprint, we have stocked up a little bit, I must say. One reason is the specific price situation with some naturals where we have pre-bought material in expectation of higher prices in the future. And we also have some safety stock connected with some of the geopolitical situations where we take care of the moment to make sure that we can always deliver and supply our customers. And the third part is definitely on the procurement side. We have pressure from our customers when it comes to payment terms, and we will definitely also be more tough on our suppliers in the future. With the ambition to have one global procurement organization, there will be much more transparency around this and action. And that's why I see the level I just described to you in the mid- to long-run as realistic.

[Operator Instructions] The next question comes from the line of Martin Roediger from Kepler Cheuvreux.

Coming back to the organic sales growth target of 5% to 7%. And here, specifically on the trajectory because you mentioned the high comparison base Q1 and to some extent, Q2, should we expect a very low single-digit growth in Q1, a low single-digit growth in Q2 and then something like mid-single in Q3 and then a high single or double-digit growth in Q4 to get to this 5% to 7% organic sales growth target for 2025? And then secondly, on the depreciation and amortization charges. It seems to be that when we split the year into 2 halves, there is a sequential decrease from first half EUR 164 million to the second half EUR 152 million. How comes the sequential decline? Did you have some impairments in the first half and not anymore in the second half? Or did some amortization charges expire in the second half? And if that is the case, is the second half a good proxy for the next semesters?

Yes. So thanks very much. So I will take the first question and hand over to Olaf for the second one. And concerning the single-digit growth or low or high single-digit growth for Q1, Q2, Q3, Q4, I think that Symrise and I've shown that since the IPO from 2006 to now, we grew more than 8% organically per year, right? So we are a growth story. We are definitely a growth story. So I think that for me, it's important not to see month-by-month or quarter-by-quarter, but to see the yearly growth of the company. There could be some big seasonality because of the big order in January or a big order in April or something like that. And as mentioned by Olaf, there could be also some big inventories not consumed by customers, which are more due to kind of external factors than anything else, which is concerning all the markets. So I cannot answer it will be a low or high single digit in Q1, Q3, Q4, whatever. But what I can tell you is that at the end of the year, we will deliver the guidance. And again, what I want also to avoid in our word is also to make some back and forth from a month to another one also for reaching targets, which are really only quarterly targets. So it's very important to reach quarterly targets, but the most important is really to create value along the road for the customer and delivering at the right time also to the customers. So it's difficult to answer your questions. As we said, comparables will be high for the first quarter, but it does not endanger at all the growth story of Symrise. I take the opportunity to say that today, the growth story is becoming a profitable growth story that we also are aiming also to sell most profitable products by keeping the growth story. which is also making us sometimes some choice where we could postpone some business for taking much more profitable business by also taking a little more time. So it's also the way we are arbitrating our top line growth. Now, I will hand over to Olaf.

Yes. Thank you for your question, Martin. You're absolutely right. There was a shift between half year 1 and half year 2 on the depreciation. The reason was what we flagged at midyear, there was an impairment in the U.S. of a facility in Pet Food, which we paused. That came along with an impairment of EUR 18 million. Actually, we recovered some of the money in that connection in the meantime. So this amount we could reduce from EUR 18 million to EUR 13 million by year-end. On the other hand, we classified the Aqua divestiture activities as available for sale. And in that connection, we also saw an impairment in the same magnitude around EUR 5 million. So basically, we have EUR 18 million, and that stayed the same number EUR 18 million in the second half. So that gives you the difference. As an approximation, I think it's a good number you can take in your model.

The next question comes from the line of Alex Sloane from Barclays.

A couple of questions from my side. Just the first one, going back to the disconnect in commentary on Pet Palatability versus Nutrition. You referred to challenging market conditions in the latter in Europe and the U.S. Is that just the egg price dynamics? Or are there more underlying competitive pressures for the Nutrition business? And would you expect Pet overall to be accretive to the group organic this year? And then just secondly, you talked about Food & Beverage dynamics being strong and that continuing year-to-date. Can I ask, is that coming from -- mainly from reformulation? Or are you seeing any signs of improvement in terms of end market volume dynamics, maybe from more promotion from your customers and more innovation?

So I will take these questions concerning the egg price dynamics. So for sure, we are following the market evolution. And for like every market, there are some competitive offers and the egg price are very high-valued type of proteins as I was explaining some calls before. But also, we are facing a market where there are some alternative protein. So we are also to be very careful to be in the market. So it means that the egg price increased a lot. And today, we have to come back to a price which is fitting with the market rule. And again, the market, it's like the sugar market or the protein market. There are a lot of different type of protein. But today, so it's a very complex environment where at least we need to come back to a normative egg price for fitting to the market. That being said, the customers are buying also our product because they are creating specific value, specific type of protein, specific way of using the protein in the recipe, specific service, specific quality, quality/food safety/regulatory. So our customers are buying much more than eggs in our business. Concerning the dynamic of the market and reformulation, during the COVID -- after the COVID and the raw material price increase, nobody was doing -- all the efforts were done in renovation, reformulation rather than innovation. So today, we are in the middle of the reformulation. Why? Because reformulation is a way to simplify our portfolio. And part of our efficiency program is also based on this simplification of our portfolio. We will also make our customer benefit out of it. The second thing is the securitization of some type of raw material by simplifying our portfolio and strengthening relationship with some key suppliers/type of raw material, we are also managing and assessing the risk in terms of scarcity or volatility of the raw material. It is the second pillar of the reformulation. Now the third one, which is the one we are focusing and a lot, which is also a reformulation creating an extra value. And that is not only for cost optimization, it is a reformulation/innovation. The pure innovation today is quite difficult because there are also some -- a lot of regulatory constraints, specifically in regions like Europe. But reformulation is also a way for us to help the customer to position their product another way, like organic solutions, like meat-free solutions where you have really sustainability -- natural solutions, like zero waste solution, like zero CO2 or O2 consumption solutions, net zero solutions. And we have a big program internally called Houston, where we are reformulating and we are addressing all the CO2 and O2 footprint of all our product constituents. So here, the reformulation is really creating extra value for the customers and for the industry. So -- but definitely, for us, it's a key, it's a driver for taking market shares. And it's more than reformulating for saving, it's reformulating for creating value. So that's where we are also focusing.

The next question comes from the line of Charles -- Charlie Bentley from Jefferies.

There's just a few that I want to -- there's a couple that I want to follow up on. So one, just Lisa's question, with regards to your comments on Scent & Care margins below targets and your kind of response around potentially reviewing the composition of the portfolio, Jean-Yves. So at the CMD, you appeared pretty fundamentally committed to backward integration. I'm kind of looking at a slide here that says this is what sets us apart. Can you just like very simplistically answer, is divesting Aroma Molecules something you would consider or that's off the table because that is a point of differentiation? And then secondly, I'm a little bit confused on this egg pricing point in Pet Nutrition, not to do this to death, but what I can see is egg prices are ripping. They're up 200% year-on-year, 20% year-to-date. So I would have expected this to begin to be a tailwind -- are you simply saying that the negative -- the dynamics are basically a function of contract prices and it could become a tailwind later, maybe it's 2026 type situation? Or is it because of the increase in prices, customers are substituting out, and you basically have a choice between either easing margin or losing volumes? So that would be the second one. And then very finally, just on Pet, can you just -- do you expect this to be above in line or below group kind of 5% to 7% organic growth in 2025?

So thanks very much for these 3 questions. So the first one concerning Scent & Care margin. So Aroma Molecule is somewhere representing the backward integration strategy and driving force and differentiation of Symrise in the market. That Aroma Molecule business represents some -- it's not a question on margin, it's a question of volatility. And we are, as I said in the beginning, we are assessing permanently all the activities. And today, the question is for us to create value for us and for the customers and to get rid of maximum of volatility. So -- and that's what we are working on. And to -- and your question is Aroma Molecule divestiture on the -- off or on the table. As I told you, we are addressing not only Aroma Molecule, but the '24 business and the ONE Care is one outcome of that, because we want also to create synergies to create much more value from what we have in our portfolio. So that's also a way we are thinking to reposition the value of Aroma Molecule also internally. And I can tell you that there is a lot of value within Aroma Molecule. The question now is really to come back to a better profitability, which is feasible. Concerning the pricing point of egg, a tailwind can become an headwind and a headwind can become a tailwind. So concerning the protein price points, we cannot substitute egg overnight. There are some recipes. There are some value. There are some profiles. There are some amino acid profiles and there are a lot of things which are linked to the recipe of the customer. So it's not easy for a customer to move and to switch from a product or a type of protein to another one. So today, I'm very optimistic about this business. The question today, the pricing were very high, now they are down. So we have to adjust. So I am myself very confident that it will -- it is on the way to stabilize, but we are still in this period of contract management and the price are really now still to be stabilized. And concerning the Pet, Pet has always delivered a very strong growth. And today, beginning of the year, what I can tell you is that as a group, we commit to make 5% to 7%. And for me, I should say that Pet should be in the bracket of 5% to 7%. That's really what I can tell you for the time being. We are in January. We are really in January. So nobody knows what this type of market can do. As I told, we are a leader. We take still market share. So if the market is rebounding in some region of the world, and we are very present in China, we will see very strong increase in these kind of regions. So I am very optimistic on these kind of things.

Okay. Thank you very much all for your questions and for the time with us. At this point in time, we will have to end the call. Thank you for participation. We are looking forward for the continuous dialogue. And if you have any questions, please reach out to IR. We are here now. Thank you very much.

Thank you very much. Bye-bye.

Thank you. Bye.

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