T-Mobile US, Inc. (TMUS) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

All right. Good afternoon, everyone. Thank you for joining us at the Wells Fargo TMT Summit. Really pleased this afternoon to be closing out the day with Jon Freier, the President of the Consumer Group at T-Mobile. Thanks for joining us.

Yes. Thank you, Eric. Appreciate it.

And I know you have a brief safe harbor. I want to get that out of the way.

I do. If we can move to the safe harbor slide here, which is basically, please look at all of this information. And if you have any other questions, please go to our website at investorrelations.t-mobile.com.

Great. So maybe we'll start out high level with the recent CEO transition. The recent change in CEO to Srini Gopalan you've obviously had some very strong charismatic leaders in the past at T-Mobile. So how should we think about the path forward for the Un-carrier under Srini? How that might differ from some of the previous CEOs that we've seen in the public market?

Well, if I can just say, I think Srini is very charismatic as well. So if I could just say that upfront. Yes, this is something that we've been excited about with Srini being appointed as CEO. We've been working with Srini for a very long time, really kind of the last 10 years where he's had a position as a TMUS board member for the majority of the last 10 years and has been with us and working with us kind of every step of the way relative to our strategy. And he's pretty clear eyed about the priorities that he has for the company. And I would just say, really, when you look at the 3 priorities he has: one is, how do we extend our network leadership position, attract more network seekers and close this perception gap between reality and what prospects think of our network, number one. Number two is how do we drive the customer experience and elevate that through digitalization. And then number three, how do we make broadband incredibly successful. And those are the 3 priorities that he laid out during our Q3 earnings call at the end of October. And for us, we're very clear eyed about those priorities. We want to continue to drive growth in a very profitable, durable, accretive way. And that's something that we've been known for as driving lots of outsized growth over the last 13 years of the Un-carrier, but also drive an outsized financial performance along the way. And he's very clear out about that, and it's something that we've been excited about. And it's not one of these moments where you have a crisis. He's stepping in, in a moment of incredible success. And I love the way that Mike Sievert kind of characterize this, when you have incredible success, the future has never been brighter and the right leader is here ready to go, that's the moment when you make these transitions. And he's done incredible the last few weeks as he stepped into the role, but that shouldn't surprise anybody because we've been working with him for the last decade or so.

Yes. Fair enough. Fair enough. Given that we're kind of in the heart of Q4, we're nearing a very promotional time period. We've got Black Friday coming up. We've got holiday promotions. There have been new phone launches in the market a couple of months ago, and you've had some recent offers in the market like 4 for $100 with no trade-in requirements. Maybe you could just kind of characterize how this Q4 is stacking up from a promotional standpoint, from an activity standpoint versus previous fourth quarters, realizing that, of course, there's still a lot of activity to come in the last 1.5 months of the year?

Yes. This is my 32nd Q4 in this business, if you can believe that. I know that's what you're thinking that there's no way this guy can be that old. But true, it is by 32nd quarter in this business. And it's always kind of a competitive time, as you would expect during the holiday time period, a lot of headline offers that are out there much like our offer of -- in terms of a headline offer for 4 for $100. And this is an offer that we've had that we pulled in and out of the market really for the last 10 years or so. There's just always a lot of noise. For us, what we try to do is we try to have these big headline offers, generate interest, generate traffic and then really showcase to customers everything that we have to offer. And when you think about 4 for $100 when we had these promotions in the market in the past, they've always represented kind of a low single digit of gross account additions in terms of the mix of that offer. And the overwhelming majority of the customers that are coming into the franchise are selecting premium plans. And so when I look at the overall competitiveness, it's nothing that I'm concerned about. It's vibrant. The competitive environment is always vibrant in this space. But there's nothing that I'm concerned about in terms of what I'm seeing today. And nothing that I would be concerned about in terms of what I'm seeing in the future for the balance of the quarter. Our momentum is continuing into this business. We had -- we revised our postpaid phone net guide to 3.3 million for the year. You can do the math between where we are, the guide, that kind of implies what you should expect in Q4. And we're feeling really good about that momentum, the overall switching dynamic that's happening in the marketplace and our ability to compete very effectively. And like I said just a few moments ago, thoughtfully, profitably and doing so that's rewarding customers for the value proposition that we offer.

And obviously, there's been a lot of news and chatter in the hallways around the CEO change at one of your large competitors recently. And they've expressed the desire to at least improve their customer growth through some retention efforts to try to keep more of their customers that have churned off. So early days I realize with the CEO change there, but any changes in behavior, marketing, retention offers that you've seen or expect when competing against them?

Yes. Like you said, they've gone through some changes over there. And so far, I haven't seen anything that is manifesting itself in the marketplace. And I know they've had their public commentary, and I'm not here to do their Investor Relations for them, nor do I want to run their company. And so -- but I'd tell you that if you just kind of step back for a second and just look at kind of net adds on a per network basis versus a per brand basis. If you look at it on a per-brand basis, sure, lots of challenges for the Verizon brand. But if you look at it on a per network basis between the AT&T network, the T-Mobile network and the Verizon network, actually, that's quite healthy for them. The big challenge and the big opportunity that I think they have is how to get their mix right between the net adds that are hitting their network. Should they have much more of a retail relationship with customers versus a wholesale relationship with customers, that's for them to decide. But if it were me, just kind of looking at it between the net add composition again on a per network basis, it seems like they have some clear opportunities to rightsize what they're seeing coming through the Verizon brand in that space.

Okay. Fair enough. Fair enough. I guess we'll all be waiting to see how that happen in February. So as we think about upgrade rates this year, they've picked up quite a bit. We've seen industry churn pick up a lot of customers that came out of 2- or 3-year device payment plans. So maybe you could talk about from T-Mobile's perspective, do you prefer this kind of higher switching environment, more jump balls to go prosecute against? Or do you prefer an environment in which switching activity is a little lower like we've had in the past few years. What do you think is kind of the best environment for T-Mobile to win share in? Or are both environments in which you can do really well?

Yes. What you're seeing is you are seeing more switching and more upgrade activity that's happening in the marketplace. And I think that's not a new dynamic but more of a normalization of where it was. Remember, there was -- 2 of our competitors had introduced financing constructs over 36 months. And that probably artificially suppressed some of the upgrade activity, some of the switching activity in the marketplace. And what you're seeing is more of a return to a normalization in terms of upgrades, in terms of switching, et cetera. So I think that's a very healthy dynamic. We've demonstrated that we can play in either environment, that we can play in a lower switching, lower upgrade environment. We can play in that environment and have done that quite successfully or we can play in an environment where there's elevated switching. For me, personally, the more jump balls that we have and the more switching and activity in the marketplace, that's great. I mean we're a share taker in this overall space and when you have more opportunity to take share, that's what we want to be able to do. Our upgrade rate, as you've seen, has changed a little bit, but our overall postpaid phone churn is now the lowest in the industry. In Q3, we reported the lowest postpaid phone churn in the industry. So how everything is working out relative to switching, upgrades, that whole dynamic. It's really boding well for our ability to continue to resonate in the marketplace and to deliver great results for our shareholders.

And this question, you've probably gotten in many different forms over the last couple of years, but it's really around kind of fiber and mobile convergence, which has obviously been talked about quite a lot at your 2 competitors. And with the construct that a bundled fiber and mobile solution will help lower churn, it will help extend customer lifetime value. Of course, it also comes at the expense of an upfront cost benefit that the customer gets. But it doesn't appear that you really have the aspiration to be more meaningful fiber provider above and beyond the 12 million to 15 million homes that you laid out. So I know today, you claim you really don't see it as a competitive disadvantage. I think people are trying to project into the future 5 years when another 40 million or 50 million homes of fiber get built. Does it ever become one? What's your best view today? And how do you prepare for the possibility that it could create lower switching in some markets where you compete against fiber?

Yes. We just love where we are in the space. First of all, let me kind of back up for a second and just talk about our broadband position. We're now the fifth largest Internet service provider in the country. We have nearly 9 million overall broadband customers in the market. And when you look at where we are on fixed wireless, and we've said, hey, we'll be at 12 million by the end of 2028. That's our number. We haven't deviated from that since our Capital Markets Day in 2024. And when you think about that 12 million in the context of households passed at like basically a 40% penetration, kind of like 30 million households, if you think about that as the households passed. Then in addition to what you just said, between the Lumos and the Metronet transactions, ultimately having 12 million to 15 million households passed. We're kind of in this 40 million to 45 million household pass zone in terms of the equivalent. We love that place. It's in a good place. We're not thinking about broadband from a position of defense. We really like our position here. We don't see anything that we need to be doing to [bat at that] back so-called convergence, nothing that we need to do around that. We see an opportunity to make money. Obviously, our 5G broadband product is off of a fallow capacity model. We've been very consistent in terms of how that works. And we see an opportunity to monetize that fallow capacity in the network. And then fiber, we see an opportunity to make money and to go build kind of first to fiber or nearly first to fiber markets. And so all that's going incredibly well. We continue to not see and we've been consistent about this since we started talking about this more openly at the Capital Markets Day in September of last year. Not really a whole lot of correlation on fiber footprint, penetration, those kinds of things. We're just not seeing that. And the reason is, and it's our experience is that mobile is such a considered purchase. And people don't say, hey, as a result of my broadband provider, I need to go exclusively with that same company for my mobile services. People don't really think about that. Gone are the days where like, oh, if you bundled everything together, you only have to write 1 check versus 3 checks, and it's just easier. Everybody is on auto pay. So like that stuff doesn't really matter anymore. And sure, there's a little bit of a discount for bundling. Yes, sure, that's there. But when people really think back -- step back and think about the overall value proposition and they really critically compare Verizon, T-Mobile, AT&T, we win in those decisions. Regardless of who your home broadband provider is, does bundling is bundling a factor? You bet. Smartphones, tablets, watches, a fixed line product for your home broadband, a wireless product for your home broadband, bundling certainly lowers churn and there's definitely lower churn, the more deeper a relationship is and the more bundled the relationship is. But it's not causal in that you have a fiber relationship, and therefore, you have outsized mobile performance. We're just not seeing that. And we're not seeing anything that would suggest that that's going to change anytime soon, if ever.

And I think you've talked about in the past, how we've -- the majority of the industry has been converged for quite some time, like north of 80% of it for 3 years?

Yes. Exactly. 85% of American can get for the last 5 years can get their broadband connection and their wireless connection from the same company. And you've seen what you've seen. And I would add that given that whole dynamic, and we've been consistently talking about that since September of last year, and we are the company with the lowest postpaid phone churn rate. And our competitors are rising in their postpaid phone churn rate. So the rhetoric and the reality are a bit disconnected.

Yes. Yes. Fair enough. Just to flip the fixed wireless, while we're on the broadband topic, you have the -- obviously, you have your aspirations to get to 12 million customers. Maybe you could talk a little bit about where you're winning share? You put up really good numbers year-to-date. Could you talk about the geographic distribution between urban, suburban and rural and maybe how that's changed since you first launched this product a few years ago? And when you look at who you're competing with, is this price still primarily coming at the expense of cable or are you seeing some success going up against other technologies, whether that's DSL, fiber in some cases, satellite?

Yes. We just absolutely love this product. And this is something that we started talking about in 2021 initially going from 0 customers and we said, hey, by the end of 2025, we think we'll be at 7 million to 8 million. And then, of course, we updated that to 12 million by the end of 2028. This business is performing just beautifully. And what's happened over time is you would think that the performance, as you load more and more customers on the performance would degrade, but just quite the opposite is happening. We're finding more and more opportunities to give customers a better experience, better speeds, overall reliability and customers are just loving this product. The growth, as you said just a few moments ago, has continued to be outsized. We had another quarter in Q3 of north of 500,000 fixed wireless customers, 560,000 total when you include fiber, but north of 500,000 on just fixed wireless only. Net Promoter Scores continue to rise, what customers are getting for what they're paying continues to be great. It's just a beautiful business for us. We're not seeing really much change here in terms of the composition of where the business is happening. Roughly 70% is coming from kind of the top 100 markets, kind of urban suburban markets. And the other 30% coming from more rural areas. And we're not really seeing that composition change much. And also to your question, and where that's really kind of coming from has been disproportionately cable. And I'd tell you, our customers, they just -- they love being able to get a great product that's got great utility, great speeds and to be able to free themselves from cable in those higher prices and exploding bundles to be able to get something that's just as great that we have to offer, than people are loving it. And it's something that I continue to be excited about, particularly when you think about fiber, as fiber comes into markets, where we also have FWA on a hexbin basis, on a per sector basis, the more that we can get fiber kind of going the more it opens up some potential capacity for fixed wireless in those markets as well. So our teams are loving this product. Our customers are loving the product and the results are really off the charts.

And when you look at -- I know you have a smaller fiber T-Fiber platform today. But when you look at the type of customers selecting fiber versus fixed wireless, is there a lot of overlap? Or is it just kind of a different segmentation of the market?

I would say it's a different segmentation. We really see these products as complementary and they don't really substitute one another. The more mainstream customer that's using 400, 500, 600 gigs per month, fixed wireless access, great for them. Customers that are using terabytes, 1, 2, 3 terabytes per month, fiber is probably the right product for them. And where we can move customers into fiber in those particular areas to free up capacity, not to have a 1-for-1 replacement, but potentially to have 2, 3, 4 to 1 replacement. That's what we want to be able to do.

Yes. Maybe just to switch to like the overall outlook for postpaid phone growth. This has been something that for the last few years, investors seemingly have been bracing for this big slowdown, which hasn't really come or if it's been very moderate. And there have been worries about immigration, government cost cutting, free lines and prepaid to postpaid migrations, inflating numbers and things of that sort. So maybe you could kind of give your view of how -- what the postpaid phone growth environment looks like, not just this year, but out the next couple of years? And obviously, as the big market share taker in the space, can you continue to succeed even if we do see a slowing gross add environment?

Yes, we can absolutely continue to succeed. If you step back for a second, it's really hard for us to like think about net add growth at an industry level. And you were kind of hitting at it just a little bit, which is like different companies report different metrics, and it's just kind of hard to get to because some companies have a first line free construct, which we do not. And so like it's always just kind of hard to get to. We pay attention to it, but we don't obsess over it, and we don't try to predict it. What we do try to do is say, okay, here's where we think where the market is going. Here's what our plan is and how do we go and execute our plan and deliver for our shareholders relative to what we've said. And when you look at the overall market, I'm still feeling great about the robustness of the market. Like I said earlier, switching and the momentum continues to be very, very strong. We love where that is. I don't see that changing anytime soon. A lot of questions have been around immigration and some of the changes of this administration's policy around immigration. We haven't seen that in terms of an impact. There might be other impacts with lower transactional prepaid brands. We just have not seen that in our business at all. And so where we are, even if there is a change, and it's hard to know if there's going to be a change or not. I just don't know. But even if there is, we feel just great about this overall proposition that we have around best value, best network and the very best experience that's creating a great halo for our brand to be able to compete thoughtfully and profitably for high value and accretive customers.

Yes. And just touching on that best network concept. I mean you were very vocal earlier this year that you're now finally getting recognized by third parties for actually having the best network. And I think you've also stated in the past that there's sometimes a lagging kind of customer perception of who has the best network. But maybe you could talk about how you're getting that message out there, how much more room you have to run in terms of convincing the many subscribers who are not on T-Mobile that you truly have the best network. And then how do you ensure that you remain the best network, especially with Verizon and AT&T, in particular, acquiring some spectrum assets recently to try to bolster their mid-band holdings, how do you think about all of that and kind of maintaining or extending this leadership you have?

Yes. This is why -- this is such an important topic, which is why I think it's one of Srini's top 3 priorities, which is really the first one, which is really making sure that we advance this network leadership position. And get credit for the network realities that we have and to close this perception gap. And as you guys have probably have seen, we've had a lot more network brand advertised in the marketplace. We've got Billy Bob Thornton running around. And I don't know who the other guy that's the other guy in the other commercial, the -- I can remember the other guy with one of our competitors. I can't remember his name. Who was it? Oh, yes, yes, it's been so long since I've seen that guy doing. So like it's been a while. So I just couldn't remember who it was for a second. But Billy Bob Thornton, the landman is hot right now. And so we've got him out and kind of talking about this network. I don't know if you guys have seen our latest spot, which is basically, hey, one of my friends said, the T-Mobile network, you suck. And now it doesn't. And what we're trying to do here is to like really kind of acknowledge the reality -- everybody is shouting we got the best this, we get the most reliable that, and the fastest this. Everybody is shouting that. And what we're trying to do is breakthrough. First, we've been crowned as America's best overall network, which is an incredible achievement. But we're trying to break through all that noise and tell people that years ago, you're right. If you tried T-Mobile years and years ago, not so good. We had challenges. Definitely, you better stay in the left lane of the interstate and not move into the right lane of the interstate, you might lose coverage, that kind of a problem. But if you haven't tried T-Mobile lately, then you just haven't tried T-Mobile because of all of the investment and the 5G 2.5 gigahertz of spectrum that we've deployed, it's just a completely different game. And I've been a part of this business for, like I said, 32 years, way back T-Mobile VoiceStream Western Wireless. And did I ever think that we would arrive as having the best network like -- and I never thought we would arrive at that place some number of years ago. But after we got the first 100 megahertz spectrum, the 600 megahertz from the incentive auction plus the Sprint transaction with all the 2.5 gigahertz, you started to believe that we can put all this together and create something incredibly special, which is what we've been able to do. And now we're in the early innings or really getting credit for it. And one of the big opportunities for us to continue to grow is to capture and incent network seekers from leaving AT&T and Verizon and move into T-Mobile. AT&T and Verizon have more than 200 million customers. 70 million of them chose AT&T or Verizon because they had the best network back then. Now we have the best network, and it's a huge opportunity for us to go in and convince those customers that we have the very best network. And we won't promote our way there. Sure, there's going to be promotions that are always in the marketplace. But this is about speaking to customers, being real truth tellers, resonating with customers locally where it matters and talking to them in very plain spoken ways. Something that we're incredibly excited about, something that we're going to -- you're going to continue to see more and more network-oriented advertisers that continue to get that message out in the marketplace. Yes.

And related to that, I know years ago, you talked about how you were significantly underpenetrated in smaller markets, not necessarily rural, but outside of kind of the top 50 or 100. And you recently closed on the UScellular transaction that gives you a little bit more footprint there. Where are we in terms of your rural expansion, customer penetration and distribution? And is there really any reason why longer term, you shouldn't have kind of a market-leading position in rural America, I mean not putting an exact time line on it, but just based on all the dynamics you've expressed?

That's our belief. Our belief is that we should be the market leader and being the market leader is that's no question in my mind. The question that's in my mind is what is our fair share because being the market leader is the majority share, but the fair share is that's up for interpretation. Is that just taking the 3 bus between AT&T and Verizon and T-Mobile and Comcast and Charter and diving it up, et cetera, a fair share. Not really, because I'm actually inspired by our top 100 markets. I mean we're sitting here in Los Angeles right now. And here in L.A., we have a share of household position of north of 50%, 5-0, north of 50% and in New York City, we have a share of household north of 50%. In our top 10 markets where we're #1 in share position, we're continuing to grow. Or we're #2 and #3 in share position. We're continuing to grow, as you would expect in #3. But what people are really surprised about is that we continue to grow across that #1 share of household position. And if you can do 50% plus in 2 of the biggest markets in the country, then our fair share and our ability to attract customers in rural America, I mean that's way beyond what people think. And then the question is like how long will it take you to get there? We're well on our way. I couldn't be more proud of like what we've done in smaller markets, rural areas. When we started talking about this back in 2021, people thought we might be a little crazy because T-Mobile is a brand that resonates in the big markets, not necessarily in rural America. Now that we're north of 20% share of household beating our declared ambition before we folded in UScellular, now we're just in a great position. And to your point on UScellular, we have a great -- and we can talk about this more, if you'd like. We have a great opportunity to accelerate this overall position in those markets. So we've got a lot of runway here to go, fair share, the way I think about it is, I think about the top 100 markets inspiring me to go even further in smaller markets from rural areas than you might normally logically think.

And just touching on UScellular briefly. I mean you closed on that August 1. So a few months under your belt. Maybe are there any opportunities within that footprint that we may not be aware of? And maybe just talk about the steps of the integration, making sure you get that right. It sounds like you're accelerating some of the synergy realization, the cost to achieve relative to your original plan. It seems like things are going well so far.

It's going incredibly well. This is something, to your point, we closed on that transaction on August 1 across the entire UScellular footprint, picked up 47 megahertz of spectrum across 37 million POPs in the UScellular footprint. And it's going incredibly well. Everything is right on track. We just recently stopped promoting the UScellular brand for new customer acquisition and have unified the entire operation behind the T-Mobile brand for new customer acquisition. So any kind of dollars that you spend on promoting UScellular not the most efficient in the world. So now we've stopped that. And we've integrated the network so that UScellular customers not only have their network that they're used to, but they can now touch thousands of T-Mobile sites in that UScellular footprint and beyond. And then T-Mobile customers in that UScellular footprint can now see the sites that we'll retain. Well, 2,000, maybe a little bit north of 2,000 sites that came from the UScellular network that will ultimately retain and fully integrate into the T-Mobile network. So T-Mobile customers are seeing better coverage. UScellular customers are seeing better coverage in overall performance. And all of that is going incredibly well. We've got some onetime CapEx charges that as you would expect relative to integration in 2025 and 2026. We've said that 2025 is kind of in the $9.5 billion to $10 billion range. 2026, probably more to $10 billion. But I wouldn't necessarily drag that right. So that's kind of a onetime artifacts of this integration. We'll get to more of a normalized kind of $9 billion to $10 billion range in overall CapEx after we get through this integration of '25 and '26. But everything is really on track. The next big thing that I think we'll be talking to our investors about is how the customer migration is going, moving customers from the UScellular environment to the T-Mobile environment, and we'll be starting that in a pretty big way in 2026.

Okay. That's helpful color. We touched on this a little bit earlier in one of the one-on-one meetings, but T-Life has been a big priority for you. Important part of the customer experience. Obviously, helping improve customer experience, reduce customer inbound volumes and obviously, it could help you manage your cost base over time, whether that's through your partner stores or other distribution channels. So maybe you could just talk about where we are in terms of the T-Life evolution and what kind of the next step is to really help that drive customer experience but also financial profitability for the company?

Yes. So if you have any conversation with anyone at T-Mobile about anything T-Mobile, T-Life is definitely going to come up. We are all about T-Life. And this is something that we started talking about in our Capital Markets Day last year and really this vision of being able to concentrate this fragmented app ecosystem into kind of a super app that we call T-Life. And ultimately driving engagement, transactions, overall interactions as the kind of the source where everything around T-Life will connect into T-Life. And right now, we've got 85 million downloads on T-Life, and we're regularly seeing north of 20 million monthly engaged customers. So 20 million accounts or lines, I should say, actively engaging with T-Life on a monthly basis. It's really beautiful. We've got 2/3 of our overall upgrades that are happening now on the T-Life platform. Basically, digital upgrades a couple of years ago was like almost nothing. And now for that to be 2/3 really, really speaks to the power of the app. We're now kind of -- when you look at iPhone preorder, back in late September, early October, 3 out of 4 upgrades that happened during that preorder period came through T-Life, hundreds of thousands of transactions, huge scaled events. So that's something that we continue to see a lot of demand for. What we did with T-Life is we completely not even just reengineered all of our customer journeys. We kind of basically threw them out and rebuilt them from hello. So like in the old app and the old legacy app, it would take you 30-something taps to be able to do something, maybe. And that was a big maybe on that. Within T-Life, now it's down to like 12 taps, super easy, very fast, very efficient. And what we wanted to be able to do is to take these kinds of transactions from them taking hours to them taking minutes. And so all of that's going incredibly well. Over time, we see operating efficiency improvements here. I was pretty clear at our Capital Markets Day that we'll have less stores over time. We'll have a higher mix of our stores being company-owned retail and operated. We want to really control that experience, perfect that experience, make that experience great for our employees. And then over time, I think we'll have less and less calls into our customer care environment. There's definitely operating efficiencies that will be coming through T-Life. There's no question about that. What we wanted to do is to not think about T-Life through a cost transformation effort, but think about T-life through an experienced transformation effort that is operating efficiencies that will come over time.

All right. That's a very good overview. And maybe before we finish up, I wanted to ask you about satellite and direct-to-cell that's been very topical recently. So you've been a close partner with Starlink in direct-to-cell connectivity. Could you talk about how important that future is to today's customers for edge connectivity and more remote markets? And then not to make you predict on what Elon or SpaceX may or may not do, but they did recently acquire some spectrum and there's been a lot of conversation about whether that opens up additional wholesale opportunities longer term, if they have ever had aspirations to operate their own network through a terrestrial means.

Yes. T-Satellite has been a great complement to our terrestrial network. And it's one of the many benefits that customers can get with Magenta status. And there are so many benefits that between streaming and in-flight WiFi, all kinds of benefits. And then obviously, T-Satellite is one of those benefits as well. And like I said, it's a complement to the terrestrial network, particularly in the 500,000 square miles that are distributed around the country that no terrestrial network can reach. I wouldn't say it's mainstream and that you would ever seeming to me that you would never have connectivity around that as an always-on evergreen option, but more as a complement to the terrestrial network. And I kind of heard some of those things, too, on the MVNO relationships that might make a lot of sense for them, sounds right to them to go pursue that. But I think this is a great complement and nice addition to some of those areas where you need coverage, you need to be able to send a text, you might need to be able to send them a place a call, maybe send a picture. It's beautiful for that. But as a mainstream kind of replacement for wireless, I don't see that happening at all. Nice complement though, to our overall business.

All right. Great. Well, we're out of time. So Jon, thank you for joining us today. Appreciate it, and thank you all for coming.

Thank you all. Appreciate it.