Taaleri Oyj (TAALA) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Good morning, and welcome to the presentation of Taaleri's Q3 2025 Results. My name is Linda Tierala, and I'm heading Investor Relations here at Taaleri. With me presenting today, we have Ilkka Laurila, our CEO; and Lauri Lipsanen, our CFO. And following the presentations, we will host a Q&A session. [Operator Instructions] And now it's my pleasure to hand over to Ilkka. Please go ahead.

Good morning on my behalf as well. My name is Ilkka Laurila, and I'm the CEO of Taaleri Group. And as usually, it's time to go through the third quarter result of year '25. But actually, before we jump into the operational activities in the third quarter, we also had our Capital Markets Day at the beginning of third quarter. And just as a recap, we also upgraded our strategic priorities from '26 to '28 together with our updated financial targets. In Garantia, the target is to -- or the priorities are threefold. First of all, increase the awareness that would drive growth both in mortgage and credit guarantees. Secondly, expand the distribution channel with new partnerships, and finally, investigate international opportunities in our neighboring markets. In Private Asset Management, target is 2 folded: increase the fund sizes within our existing strategies as well as to expand to new strategies in which we believe that we can kind of identify both customer demand and opportunities to scale either organically or inorganically. And in development capital, of which reporting we have updated in this quarter, the target is to kind of exceed target return on equity, which we updated, and both in current and new investments and as well as in development projects, by combining our active ownership and expertise, and also working with the best possible partners. And finally, all these activities are supported by our M&A and M&A capabilities. And if we kind of conclude the execution, even though that it's still year '25, the execution of this strategy, we can already see some results in the third quarter. First of all, currently, obviously, as we can see from the result and what we have communicated, the market share is increasing. One factor driving that is the increased awareness of the businesses. And in addition to that, we hopefully can see news in the near future in other kind of targets as well. In Private Asset Management, obviously, existing strategies are continuing their investing activities. And we have, like I said in our Capital Markets Day, we see a lot of opportunities in new strategies, and we are actively looking at those at the moment. In development capital, new people in place, new processes, and therefore, new development in that, and building a pipeline for new kind of investments, and kind of obviously, when the time is that then the news are published on that front as well. In M&A, again, it's a process. We are building a process, and we are already having a dialogue with several kind of counterparties. In Finnish market, in a neighboring market, in existing businesses, as well as in kind of new strategies and also in a wider kind of geographical scope. A kind of target discussions that we are having. Obviously, all of those are kind of initiated by us, and therefore, it will typically take time, and you never know what will happen at the end of the process. But it's a continuous process, which we have initiated this year. But then starting with the Q3 highlights. Starting with the continuing earnings in which we had a quite solid development, increased by 4.2% up to EUR 10.1 million. In Private Asset Management, increase was 8.1%. In Garantia, the continued earnings remained at a stable level. In Garantia, market share and market position has strengthened significantly during this year, and the insurance service result grew slightly during the third quarter up to EUR 3.5 million. And as everybody can see who have opened our third quarter report, we increased the transparency for the investors when it comes to our investment segment and activities in there. So we have now classified investments into development capital, fund investments, and other investments. And we will obviously go through some of the highlights on those categories as well during the presentation. The kind of the definition of the development capital is such that Taaleri plays active role both in value creation as well as in exit planning of those entities. And therefore, actually, the kind of the third quarter result was kind of quite significantly defined by the fair value changes that were booked on the investments and especially the valuation method, which we shifted during the third quarter in one of the wind farms in Texas from acquisition cost to net asset value, which is reported in our fund report. Out of our funds, the SolarWind II has also invested in the same wind farm. In real estate, Air & Living, the joint venture with Keva made its second investments in Espoo as well as in Bioindustry I Fund, they had sixth investment in Finnish Food factory, which is a producer of plant-based daily alternatives, and they are focusing on active value creation in there and other target companies as well. Then following with the key figures. So if you take a look at the kind of the upper -- the slide of the upper boxes there, you can actually see that all the headline numbers have improved compared to year ago previous period. Revenue from EUR 21.6 million to EUR 23 million and operating profit from EUR 14.7 million to EUR 15.3 million. Then when taking a look at the lower side boxes, the picture is more mixed. And the key drivers there are that during the previous 12-month period, we had a quite extraordinary good year in investing activities within Garantia's investment portfolio, as well as we recognized some of the development portfolio revenues from the renewable energy businesses, which had a positive impact for the 12-month period previously. Then to the segments, starting with Garantia. Like already mentioned, Garantia's share of residential mortgage guarantees increased, and the result on the investment operations was actually really solid. The net income from investment operation was EUR 3.7 million compared to the previous period, when it was EUR 6.2 million. But like I said, it was exceptionally strong during that period of time. Combined ratio has slightly weakened, and therefore, the increase in insurance service expenses can be seen. Then on the insurance portfolio, it has grown that 3.5%. It is some sort of proxy also for the, let's say, future likely revenue development. The portfolio is at EUR 1.7 billion, 83% relates to consumer exposure, and 17% corporate exposure. Investment portfolio, EUR 157 million in a quite, let's say, neutral position in such a way that roughly that 75% or so is related to fixed income type of investments and instruments, and the total size is that EUR 157 million, which is a good level. Then following with the private asset management. And starting with the renewable energy. Continuing earnings grew. The key driver there, obviously being SolarWind III fund and its fundraising, which has progressed compared to a year ago situation, and it still continues until the end of the year, and it's open for one of the major investors. And hopefully, we are seeing some results before the year-end. And as a reminder, the fund is the largest infrastructure-focused private equity fund in Finland. And therefore, it's exceptionally good kind of showcase in our capabilities. Revenue increased from EUR 5.2 million to EUR 6.9 million, followed by the operating profit remaining still rather stable level on EUR 2.1 million. Then other private asset management, in addition to that 6 investment in Bio I fund, the Biocoal factory in Joensuu is continuing its ramp-up and seeking additional funding to improve the energy efficiency and therefore, the guarantee the kind of the speedy ramp-up process after that additional funding. In real estate, the kind of the continuing earnings increase is majorly explained by the retroactive management fees from the certain funds, which were recognized in the third quarter. And therefore, operating profit actually was positive in this quarter being that EUR 100,000 roughly. AUM is still that EUR 1 billion in other private asset management. Then the Investment segment. The reclassification, obviously, can be seen in our reporting, like I said, it's now split in 3 categories: development capital, fund investments, and other investments. We have new team together with the old team that manages and is building kind of the pipeline for the new investments, and therefore, the fair value changes increased at EUR 7.4 million, which flows directly, obviously, to operating profit, and the total size of the investment portfolio or the fair value of that is that EUR 65 million compared to EUR 52 million during the last quarter. Here, you can see the split of the investment portfolio, 3 largest investments, meaning the wind farm in Texas, Fintoil Hamina, and Turun Toriparkki are clearly more than 50% and jointly together with Oribalt Group is obviously biggest part of our investment portfolio. We also included some kind of highlights of those major investments that are categorized under the development capital, maybe highlighting out of these that if you take a look at Turun Toriparkki, which is a parking facility situated in underground in close to Market Square in Turku. The parking volumes have increased during this year 4.8%, and the company has been able to make extra payment of the bank loans and returned capital to the shareholders. It's a very solid, stable business, obviously, and very predictable, and therefore, good quality and good value business. Fintoil Hamina, which at least most of you are familiar with. The net sales increased 67% in second quarter '25 compared to previous year and in total, 68% during the first quarter compared to the last year numbers. And the LTM EBITDA after the second quarter was that EUR 12.4 million. And obviously, when the sales increases and if the sales continue to increase, most likely that will have a positive impact on the EBITDA as well due to the fact that this is the process industry and typically in the process industry, capacity utilization, higher capacity utilization have a positive impact for the profitability. Obviously, having said that, also kind of the sales mix has a major impact as well to the profitability, and kind of the market overall has also a major impact for the profitability levels. Then Oribalt Group, which is a market leader in pharma and healthcare product logistics in Baltics, 3 businesses, wholesale business, marketing business. And in addition to those, they also have online pharmacy, especially growing rapidly in Latvia. So also, some operations in other Baltic countries, namely Estonia. The growth during the first 8 months was that kind of significant 60%, total volume being EUR 6 million in 2024. And obviously, the growth prospects of that sort of business are quite obvious when you have such a good kind of quality business as Oribalt, as we consider. Then next is Lauri, our CFO, will walk you through our financial results and highlights of that.

Thanks, Ilkka. Hi. My name is Lauri Lipsanen, Taaleri Group CFO. And today, I'll present Q3 interim financials to you. Before jumping to the financials, let's recap our updated long-term financial targets for the strategy period of 2026 to 2028. So, in connection to the Capital Markets Day, we published these new financial targets. We aim for 12% average annual growth in operating profit from continuous earnings. Return on equity target was amended slightly as now we will start to measure return on equity at fair value, capturing the full impact of fair value changes and realized investment income. And we aim for over 15% return on equity at fair value on average. We keep our dividend payout ratio target at 50% minimum, however, taking possible capital requirements into account. For instance, Ilkka talked about inorganic growth opportunities, which may have an impact on capital requirements. Then about Q3 results. In the third quarter, operating profit of EUR 15.3 million, slightly exceeding the comparison period when the operating profit was EUR 14.7 million. There were 2 key drivers behind the operating profit growth. First one was the continuing earnings within Private Asset Management segment and then net investment income of EUR 10.5 million, of which EUR 7.4 million was related to the Investment segment's fair value changes. When it comes to cost base, other expenses were impacted by billable expenses of EUR 1.8 million, not having an impact on operating profit. So those invoices have been invoiced from the funds as they belong to the funds. And personnel costs of EUR 3.3 million declined slightly from the comparison period, mostly due to variable personnel costs. Ilkka showed the facts regarding our new investment reporting, and we have now published a new capital listing of Taaleri's investments for the investments exceeding fair value of EUR 1 million. And fact sheets were already covered in the previous pages. And now you can see the new tabular listing format. You can see the basis of accounting by each investment exceeding the fair value of EUR 1 million, background of fair value changes, such as discounted cash flow-driven or fund net asset value-driven changes. And it should be noted that fair value of the investments may deviate from the balance sheet or book value depending on the basis of accounting. For instance, we consider that Turun Toriparkki's fair value is currently EUR 15.8 million, exceeding the book value by EUR 4.8 million. In other words, this investment contains hidden value, which is not visible in our balance sheet or P&L statement. Investment segment's fair value and other balance sheet value changes amounted to EUR 13.1 million in total in Q3. Out of that amount, the balance sheet impact was EUR 8.3 million and further impacting operating profit by EUR 7.4 million and other comprehensive income by EUR 0.8 million. The main 3 fair value changes were related to the direct wind park investment in Truscott, Chile and East Wind, Turun Toriparkki, and Wastewise Group. In Wastewise Group, there was a material machinery breakdown that took place in Q3, which further resulted in the liquidity shortage. Wastewise Group was able to complete an active funding round early October, which resulted in a material ownership dilution for Taaleri Group. So in Q3, we made a write-down of EUR 3.2 million for equity and loans related to the Wastewise in total. And in Turun Toriparkki, as Ilkka presented, the operative performance has been strong. And there was a nonrecurring income of EUR 2.1 million, which was booked in Q3 relating to the sale of designated parking spaces with rental priority. As equity method is applied to Turun Toriparkki investment, positive fair value changes exceeding the book value did impact on P&L or balance sheet. In the direct wind park investment, the fair value assessment shifted from acquisition cost to net asset value reported in the fund report. Here you can see the quarterly revenue and operating profit. And as visible in the black bars, continuing earnings have remained fairly stable. However, the total revenue has been fluctuating. And this fluctuation has been mostly driven by net investment income. For instance, in Q1, market turbulence, coupled with adverse euro-USD FX rate changes, drove net investment income negative, whereas in Q3, net investment income was positively impacted by aforementioned fair value changes. And this quarterly revenue fluctuation has resulted in like respective or similar fluctuation in terms of operating profit. However, when we look at these figures over a longer period, the composition of revenue is more balanced. Both revenue and operating profit have been developing very stable. We have been, however, lacking growth recently as in 2024. Both revenue and operating profits were positively impacted by strong net investment result in Garantia, subject to declined interest rates and strong equity gains, whereas during this year, Garantia's net investment income has been lower. Continuing earnings growth has been modest, mostly because of the declined insurance service result of Garantia. As a result of changes in Garantia financials, operating profit level on an LTM basis has been lower this year compared to the last year. When it comes to Garantia's business, the extended weak development of the Finnish housing market in recent years has reflected in current year's result. However, you can see from the bars that interest revenue has remained quite stable over a longer period, whilst insurance service expenses have increased slightly. On the other hand, as stated in the CEO section, Garantia's market position has strengthened materially during this year. However, the related impact is reflected in interest revenue with a delay. When looking at the operating profit of Garantia, it has declined on an LTM basis, mainly because of previously mentioned strong investment results in 2024, and also by increased insurance service expenses. Then a couple of words about Garantia's SSR KPIs. Combined annual ratio has remained strong despite it has increased this year, driven by increased claims ratio. And the driver behind the increased claims ratio is that it has been driven by changes in estimates of claims that have incurred during previous financial years. And the impact of new claims incurred this year has not been that material, as it has impacted or increased claims ratio only by 2 percentage points or EUR 0.2 million compared to the last year. And solvency ratio has also remained very strong. What comes to Private Asset Management, continuing earnings have grown by 13.3% on an LTM basis. And this has been mainly driven by renewable energy business, especially driven by SolarWind III. As a result, profitability has improved to around 30% of revenue. You can see with the blue that other continuing earnings has increased, and that increase is mostly due to invoicing of these pass-through items not having an impact on operating profit. Then a short outlook on Taaleri's balance sheet. Both equity ratio and balance sheet has remained strong. Total assets amounting to EUR 303 million and equity ratio being 72% in Q3. Over EUR 200 million of total assets were tied up in investments, of which over EUR 40 million was related to development capital and EUR 150 million to Garantia's investment portfolio. This Garantia's investment portfolio has declined slightly compared to the previous quarter and compared to the year-end, as Garantia recently distributed a dividend of EUR 7.5 million to Taaleri plc in late September. And Taaleri further distributed the second dividend tranche of EUR 7 million in early October. And now our CEO, Ilkka, will present an outlook for 2025.

Thank you, Lauri. No major updates when it comes to our outlook. So in Private Asset Management, the growth in continuing earnings is linked to the size of the final size of the SolarWind III fund, and the kind of the exits of Wind II and III funds have been most likely postponed for the next year, like we have said already earlier. In other Private Asset Management businesses, operating profit is expected to remain negative. However, the kind of the profitability should develop positively compared to the previous year. In investment activities, the operating profit for 2025 will depend, obviously, among other things, the changes in the fair values, especially in the development capital as well as also in the other investment asset categories. In Garantia, continuing earnings expected to remain slightly below the comparison period, partly due to the prolonged weak development in Finnish housing market, which is reflected in company's result at this stage. And obviously, the investment activities faced the exceptionally strong comparison period. And in other group activities, operating expenses are expected to remain approximately at the level of the corresponding period. But with that, I think it's time to conclude the kind of the operational kind of presentation, and we have then time for the Q&A.

Thank you, Ilkka, and thank you, Lauri. [Operator Instructions] The first question comes from Sauli Vilen from Inderes.

About your renewed investment team on the group level, you have the team of 4 people at the moment. Have you just reallocated resources inside the company? Or are they like new recruitments?

Both. We have reallocated resources, but we have Antti Salmela joined 3 months ago to Taaleri, kind of long -- has a very long experience in private equity industries, namely Vaaka Partners. And he joined 3 months ago and is now kind of taking responsibility of the development capital activities.

Can you give us any insight, like what kind of targets or what sectors, or however, what kind of targets are the team currently scanning? Obviously, I guess they are focusing on something.

Obviously, there's a lot of opportunities in the market and more kind of we are able to, let's say, convey the message that we are active in the market, more pipeline you are able to, and deal flow you're able to build. But if you would like to kind of categorize, there's maybe 2 kinds of investments, which we have also kind of communicated earlier. There's these type of investments like Fintoil and Biocoal [ Oy ], say, the factory type of investments in which we either invest with our own or together with some other partners. Typically, those might be these kind of first-of-a-kind kind of facilities or factories. That's kind of one category. And the second category is that there is a kind of some sort of generational shift or some sort of other kind of, let's say, transformational opportunity in company, which is typically maybe family-owned businesses or kind of a similar type of ownership structure so that they are not able to maybe take the risk to take the leap and invest in their future growth, and we are able to kind of help them in that kind of opportunities together with our partners or alone. But those are the kind of the 2 classic kind of categories that we are looking at and seeing in the market.

Then still on the investments, how we should think about the ticket sizes? What would be a sweet spot ticket size for you? And obviously, like, what is the limit that it's not worth doing under some amount for you? I guess there's no point of doing hundreds of thousands of euros investments on your balance sheet.

Yes. We haven't set any specific target sizes for the tickets, neither we haven't set any minimum sizes for the tickets. Obviously, the kind of the first investment can actually be quite small if there is then continuing kind of investment opportunities going forward in that sort of statement. But obviously, our balance sheet set some sort of limiting factors, but we haven't set any specific targets.

Then, if I can continue still on the Bioindustry I, you made some fairly large write-downs during the third quarter there, and obviously, the market situation on the whole bio industry is kind of difficult, as you say, on the report. So the question is that how confident you are that you actually can raise the second flagship fund on Bio on '26, as you were planning on the CMD considering the current track record of the Fund I and the market situation?

Yes. Well, if you take a kind of, let's say, more strategic context, that's one example and exactly the reason why we made the in-sourcing of the distribution for Tier 2 and Tier 3 type of type of customers kind of, and discontinued the exclusivity agreement with Aktia, namely meaning that we need to be able to face the investors and the LPs and to explain the market situation and explain the activities that we take in our funds. In that namely fund, that the logic is such that, obviously, that specific target entity is facing some kind of some issues in their operations, and that's why we took a write-down. But then, on the opposite, the kind of the upgrades of the valuations, we will only take place in that fund when there is some sort of financing, new financing round on that sort of activities. So we haven't taken the valuations up, but we took the write-down because of that kind of the refinancing and operational kind of issues in that one investment. So in that sense, because those investments are kind of early-phase investments. That's why at this stage, when the fund is still in investment phase, it's too early to say and make any conclusions of the value of those investments or the kind of the end result. And that's why we need to have a direct dialogue with our customers and LPs to be able to explain the factors that are driving the valuations in the certain funds.

Thank you. And the next question comes from Patrick Campbell from Nordea.

I just had a few quick ones. First off, starting with SolarWind III. Could you maybe explain the rationale behind the EUR 70 million co-investment? And what effects does it have on Taaleri, if any?

The logic is that it increases the kind of the investment capacity of the fund. So it's no fee or carry type of amount, but it's kind of gives opportunity to participate in a larger projects with that co-investment vehicle. So that's the logic.

Just then, going back to the Investment segment. Is it correct to assume that the fair value changes are going to be revised each quarter?

As they have been so far as well. But in this quarter, I think from the numbers perspective or the target entity perspective, there was actually in quite many target companies, there had some kind of operational events that explain the kind of the fair value changes that can happen in every quarter. In that one wind farm in Texas, we made that shift to recognize the kind of value based on the kind of the fund value because it's now categorized under the development capital, and that's the logic. So in that sense, basically, I think the answer is that you never know. But obviously, we do it in every quarter, like we have done it earlier as well.

And then just last one on Garantia, and the claims ratio increased this year. Could you maybe break it down a bit more clearly? And maybe how should we think about the claims ratio going into next year?

Yes. As I stated, the impact of new claims incurred this year played only a minor role. That increased the claims ratio by 2 percentage points, actually 1.8 percentage points to be exact. And the rest of the change were mainly driven by the changes in estimates related to the claims incurred in the previous years.

Is there any possibility that next year, we would see similar changes from previous years as well?

It's hard to say what's going to happen with the estimates each year, but there might be changes or not.

Combining insurance business and IFRS, not the perfect combination.

And we have some follow-up questions from Sauli Vilen.

About the Canadian Biocoal, you obviously moved on the next phase, so to speak, on the planning and the funding. Do you see it as a viable option to fund the whole thing from your balance sheet?

Well, at this stage, I see it quite unlikely. The amount of capital that is required to establish the facility is quite sizable. So in that sense, at this stage, I would say it's quite unlikely.

Then, about the Fintoil figures. Can you help us a bit on how we should interpret those? Like, are those figures in the ballpark where they should be, how the utilization ratio actually is at the moment? Just trying to figure out when the Fintoil would be in the optimal spot to refinance, obviously.

Well, as you see from the numbers, the growth base has been quite fast during this year. And obviously, the utilization rates, which we have communicated earlier is, let's say, it's not an optimal level, but it's already started to be on a high level. But there are typically many, let's say, new process type of industries, there are certain bottlenecks within the operations. And when you invest in those bottlenecks, you can kind of improve the sales mix and opportunities in there. Therefore, we see actually quite significant opportunities, or they see quite significant opportunities in their business going forward as well.

So, do you think that with the current figures, the refinance could be done? Like, obviously, 12 months ago, it wasn't possible, and then you kind of stepped in with your balance sheet?

Well, as we have said earlier, there's a certain time line in which it has to be done. And obviously, we still have plenty of time to do that. But obviously, improving profitability helps the kind of the refinancing. But as we are not in the middle of, or haven't executed that one, it's difficult to say what sort of impact certain KPIs and the parameters will have.

Then, just out of curiosity about the Turun Toriparkki fair value difference between the actual book value, or your view of the fair value, like why the book value isn't just the fair value you say? I guess you are the ones who decide how to value Turun Toriparkki since you own the 40% or how does the process go basically?

Is your question why it's in the past…

Yes. Why the balance sheet number is lower than -- what do you think of the fair value since at least I have thought that you are the ones who decide what the actual fair value is.

Yes, yes, yes. So we have calculated the current fair value, estimated that. What comes to balance sheet, it's been consolidated based on the equity method. So basically, there is a purchase price and then the accumulated profit or loss impacts on that. And if you distribute capital, it reduces the value of that balance sheet item.

IFRS.

Yes. Yes, that sounds logical. Yes. Then, finally, one more about the old wind farms. Obviously, the electricity price in Finland is not what you would like it to be at the moment. How long can you like kick the can, so to speak, forward? Is there any deadline somewhere when you just have to move with the farms, or is it okay just to wait for the better market situation for a longer period of time?

Sorry, related to?

The old wind farms.

Okay. So, we are not, let's say, kind of in that sort of situation that we would need to kind of sell them fast. Well, not internally, but we can still continue the kind of the life cycle of those farms, and we have done it with the refinancing in the previous quarter. So we are not in a hurry in that sense. But obviously, like we have communicated, actively scanning the market and the opportunities. But it's just optimizing the value for the investors. That's where it comes to.

And just to make sure that in each quarter, you test the carry already booked.

Yes.

There's a related question online on the exit market for these older wind farms as well. So if you could elaborate a bit on what makes a challenging market environment now.

I would say it's actually maybe a twofold. Obviously, I think everybody can see, if you take a look at any statistics, I think the overall M&A market, I think in any business, is lagging behind the activity that used to be normal a few years back. That's one element. So, in the slow M&A market overall. And I think secondly is that in Finland, actually, electricity price forecasts have come down recently. Obviously, you don't know when they start to go up, but the fluctuating electricity price forecast have an impact in processing as well, especially considering these Finnish assets.

And then, regarding the wind farm asset in Texas, is there a potential buyer already? And is that the reason behind the increase in fair value?

Our direct ownership is, 7% in that wind farm. So we are, let's say, in that sense, we are in back seat of any processes. But obviously, I would put it more in an overall context. There's maybe 4 different kind of buyer categories. There are utility companies, there are independent power producers, and there are financial sponsors, as well as there are these sovereign type of investors that are looking at those big assets, but not maybe communicating specifically towards these specific assets.

All right. Thank you. And then we have a question about Garantia and the strategic importance. So this person is asking regarding when we can expect the Garantia partnership or any expansion news from that business unit? And is there a reason why you are now bringing Garantia into the strategy? And why have you not done it earlier?

Well, there are a lot many questions, maybe starting from the latter one. I don't know the fact that why that was not the case earlier because I was not in the company at the time. But with the existing strategy or the new strategy, we had a quite thorough process with the extended management team in which we make conclusions that are crucial part in our business. And namely for the reasons that we explained in our Capital Markets Day, it's a solid cash flow business, kind of countercyclical compared to our equity risk that we take elsewhere in our group. And it provides stable cash flow, which helps us to kind of expand our activities in private asset management, providing, for example, seed capital to new funds and new operations. And that's why I think that especially in times like this, when the market is, and the kind of both the fundraising market and the M&A market is not, let's say, an optimal pace. It's highly valuable to have these kinds of assets, which are generating stable cash flow. It's much easier to sleep your night when having a solid cash-flow-generating business.

Thank you for that answer. Are there any further questions from the audience? If there are no further questions, then we are ready to conclude this webcast at this time. We thank you very much for all of your thoughtful questions and also for your time. Taaleri will publish our results for the full year 2025 on the 11th of February. So stay tuned for that. And with that, I wish you a pleasant rest of the day.

Thank you.