TAKKT AG (TTK) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen, and welcome to the earnings call of TAKKT AG hosted by CFO, Claude Tomaszewski. [Operator Instructions] Let me now hand the floor over to your host, Claude Tomaszewski.

Yes. Thank you very much. A very warm welcome to everybody this afternoon for the earnings call at TAKKT. I am happy to welcome everybody, together with my investment -- Investor Relations team. We are happy to give you more insight into the figures we have published this morning on quarter 2 and then also in the first half during this call. A bit unusual, I'm on my own here without a CEO. That's the first time in the 10 years I've worked for TAKKT. And of course, will change very quickly in 2 days, now, 3 days from Monday onwards. We will have the new CEO at TAKKT on board, Maria. And so you can expect next time that, of course, I am not on my own and that this is a one-time experience. Let's have a look at what the main statements are of TAKKT's published figure this morning. First, we have seen a very strong growth in quarter 2. Organically, the business has grown with 25%. In part, of course, also due to the low comparison base, second quarter 2022 (sic) [ 2021 ] was heavily influenced by the pandemic. But also, we have seen high customer demand and good customer demand, of course, which is pleasing us and helpful, going forward. Second, we have seen still quite significant global supply chain stretches. So product availability and also transportation capacity has been, along the second quarter challenges we had to deal with, and not as a consequence but if we look at our top line, we can include that our order intake is even growing faster than our sales figures we have published. And due to the supply chain, which is stretched, we have not converted all the order intake, which has come in, into sales. So our backlog has increased further a bit. And so that's something, of course, to manage and watch for the second half to, hopefully, at some point, see supply chains enabling us to also convert all these orders into sales. Third, if you look at profit EBITDA, we can conclude that on a like-for-like basis, we have increased the profit figure slightly higher than the sales figure. So there has been some operational leverage. That cannot be easily seen in our reported figures because we have 2 major one-offs to be considered. Last year, we sold the Hubert and warehouse building, at the end of the second quarter, so there was a onetime gain. And this year, we have to record a sales tax provision in the second quarter of 2021, and I'm sure we're going to talk about that [indiscernible]. At the same time, we have seen as expected, our marketing and personnel costs increasing quite substantially compared to the second quarter 2022 (sic) [ 2021 ]. You might remember that in 2022 (sic) [ 2021 ], we have been heavily on the brakes in that quarter and have reduced our marketing and personnel expense last year same period, very significantly. And so that is one of the reasons, of course then, why we have seen not a higher operational leverage this year if we compare quarter-on-quarter. Fourth, we've got still 2 businesses which have a challenging market environment. They are still struggling. If we look at our 7 business units, which are, as you know, organized in 3 segments. We can see at 5 business units, very, very strong and good recovery, 2 an exception, and that one is Hubert and the other one is Displays2Go. And we see here not as good a top line performance as in the others. And also here, we have seen these negative one-time hit especially at Displays2Go, which are weighing on earnings of these businesses. And that's also a second reason why overall for the Group, we cannot see the leverage, which we might possibly expect with that growth figure in the top line. The fifth statement before we go more into details at the moment, price inflation is playing a very important role and increasing and increasing. So what we can see here is that vendors, product vendors and also still, unfortunately, also container costs have gone up. And this magnitude that we have, at the moment, a strategy to pass on all these costs on absolute euros and absolute dollars, but not percentage-wise. And that means that our sales will go up. And we have, this morning, issued a new guidance for the top line. But at the same time, we expect a slight dilution on gross profit margin because we are passing on absolute dollars, absolute euros, and we are not trying to make an additional gross margin on the increasing -- on the increased price level. I'm sure we're going to talk about this also in more detail when we talk about the guidance and in the Q&A. Let's go into the different figures we have published this morning. Looking at quarter 2, the TAKKT Group, has said, we have grown the business organically by 25%. 20.5% was the reported growth and predominantly, the difference comes from a weaker U.S. dollar, and I'm sure you're familiar with that development, that effect. I've talked about the temporary consumer supply chain. And hence, we can even see our order intake being much stronger than our sales. And if you look at the profit figures, here on the right, we are mentioning the sales tax risk provision of EUR 3.3 million as well as the one-time gain of EUR 4.5 million last year, which then if we adjust for this onetime effect, EBITDA will increase by 26%, which is higher than the 20% on the top line. Worth possibly noting that at the moment, we have seen, in the second quarter of '21, on the sales level, a speed compared to the second quarter 2019. So that's different to 2020, of course, to 2019, where we are slightly below, 2% below that figure. And I think that's also another benchmark worth mentioning besides the organic growth we're seeing here. And we are roughly 2% below '19 in the second quarter 2021 compared to the nice increase. Let's move on to Omnichannel Commercial, the first segment. You can see here a very strong sales increase, 37% organically and also here, a negative currency impact of 34% reported. If we look into the 3 divisions here, KAISER+KRAFT, ratioform and NBF, we can see here growth rates, which range from something like 27% to a maximum of 51%. So a very strong recovery here in all the 3 business units in the second quarter '21. Looking at profit levels, you can see here that also we have seen some nice operational leverage here coming through, going from a figure of EUR 17 million profit to a figure of EUR 26 million. So here, we are very happy and pleased that in our biggest segment and also in our, you could say, also possibly most mature segment, we have seen the metrics working in the way we know them from TAKKT since years. Talking about Web-focused Commerce, next page. You can see here that the sales increase reported at 8%, organically 10%, a slight negative currency impact. And here, as also in the first quarter, we have seen that the 2 business units, the 2 divisions here have developed, totally different. Newport with again, strong growth of more than 20%. And at the same time, we have seen Displays2Go still being a slight decline. Much less than the first quarter. So that's, of course, good news, but we are still struggling here at Displays2Go with -- yes, trade shows still not really happening and now starting slightly. We are still in the waiting position and patient to see the business coming back with all the activity on the customer side. And then I guess we will also be able here to present better figures. Looking at profits, it has a huge decline year reportedly from EUR 3.4 million to EUR 0.9 million. Here, of course, we need to take into account the $3.3 million sales tax provision, which has been a record in the second quarter. So corrected, that would be a EUR 4.2 million. So there has been an increase here in profit. But of course, due to that impact, not really shown in the reported figure. Let's move on to Food Equipment and Supplies segment. Here, organically, we have grown the business with 9%. It's a business which is totally in the U.S. And so the U.S. -- the weaker U.S. dollar has wiped out, on a reported base, that growth rate, so there we see here on a euro basis, flat sales figures reported. Also here, similar to the Web-focused segment. We see 2 business units which develop differently. We see very strong growth rates at Central, where we are still seeing a negative growth rate here at Hubert. Having said this, I think we need to take into account, and we have talked about this a year ago that Hubert was the star in the second quarter 2022 -- 2020 when we realized that Hubert was the first business unit in our portfolio being enabled with a new product range to react to the pandemic situation and to offer a lot of pandemic related new products to the customer base and was not in decline compared to all the others. So Hubert was the star in the second quarter of 2020, which made it a bit more difficult for them now to, of course, grow, but at the same time, it's fair to say that we are a little bit disappointed, but we have not seen yet the recovery at Hubert in that second quarter. I can report that in June and July, we have seen better figures. We have seen also growth in both months. So it seems that now, at a much later stage, compared to Central that also Hubert is recovering. But for the full second quarter, unfortunately here, we have to report a decline in the sales figure. Looking at profit, that's also a huge decline from EUR 10 million to EUR 2.5 million. Now in the year before, we have to deduct the EUR 4.5 million onetime gain of selling the Hubert office and warehouse. So that would mean a EUR 5.5 million net profit, but still going down to EUR 2.5 million that's quite a big figure. Here we have seen some operational challenges at Hubert on the stock, on the inventory, that's the major driver for that drop, although we would be more similar to the quarter 2020. And so we know here the reason that we're working on it in order also, of course, going forward to see the growth we are wishing for. Looking at the first half year. So what does that mean now in total, together with the first quarter, we have grown the business reportedly by 6%, organically, nearly 10%, 9.5%. On profit, we come out with a similar level. Here the onetime effects have not a huge dilution to these -- those figures because in both half years here, we have digested 3 main onetime effects. And as I said already in the beginning, one of the reasons why, despite the 6% growth, we have not seen here a higher profit figure is that we have now also increased marketing and personnel spend to adjust for the growth environment. And so as a consequence here, we have not yet been able for the first half year to show an increase in profit figures, but we are very comfortable that, that's going to change over the year. Omnichannel Commerce, looking at the first half year, you can see here that we have grown the business organically 15%, 13% reported. Here, we see the increase in profit even very significantly, again, to be fair, the year before has been negatively impacted by what we call the TAKKT 4.0 reorganization, the reorganization here, especially at KAISER+KRAFT, and so we would have to add EUR 7.6 million here, in the previous year figure in order to look at like-for-like, but still, if we correct for that, we can see here the growth in profit we are aiming for. Web-focused Commerce. In the top line, it's flat in euros, it's a slight growth organically 2%, so a negative impact from -- a bit more than 2%. And also here, same story as for the second quarter, Newport is growing with more than 20% in the first half as well as -- at the same time Displays2Go, unfortunately, is going in the other direction. And that also is weighing heavily on earnings here. If we look at the right part of the slide, even if you correct for the EUR 3.3 million onetime hit sales tax, you can see here that our profit has declined in that segment. Foodservice Equipment and Supplies. Last but not least segment here to report on for the first half year. Organically flat, a sales decrease reported of 8%. And also here, if you look at the profit figures, and also here -- and also the same story when it comes to the top line, Central and Hubert, Central growing and Hubert going to the other direction. And on profits, even if you correct for the EUR 4.5 million onetime gain previous year and a little bit for the operational challenge we see on the inventory at Hubert, we can conclude that we are in a slight decline here in profit figures, which of course, is something we're going to work on. Let's move on to TAKKT cash flow. TAKKT cash flow has come in a bit stronger than EBITDA, when it comes to the delta for the comparable periods. And this is due predominantly to a better financial result. If you look at our financial results here, there's a plus EUR 0.7 million compared to a minus roughly, EUR 3 million in the comparable period. And here, we can report that we have sold an interest in a company, where we owned 50%, and that's also the reason why this -- the result of this sale is shown in the P&L because we're only 50%, and that was a gain of EUR 2.5 million, and that's the reason here predominantly why the TAKKT cash flow is shown with a higher increase compared to EBITDA. You can see the rest here of the deviations. We have, of course, a lower result from selling assets on the last column, but I'll leave you with that as an explanation. Moving on. Cash flow generation, you can see that cash flow, especially cash from operating activities and free TAKKT cash flow has been tremendously different to the comparable period, as expected, TAKKT cash flow [ is then ] more similar. But you might remember last year, same period, we have not just been on the brakes for marketing and personnel costs, but we have also very strongly managed our net working capital positions in the second quarter 2020. And through that, has been able to get a cash inflow of EUR 33 million, whereas this year, we had a slight decrease. And so that's the reason the moment you're in growth mode again, you are absorbing net working capital, if you are in a heavy decline, you were able -- in our business model to get the cash in. And so the cash from operating activity has declined here significantly. CapEx, similar level, I think there's nothing more to say. And then the proceeds from this go to noncurrent assets. Last year that proceeds predominantly from the sale and lease back from the Hubert warehouse and office, whereas this year, the EUR 30 million have come through selling 2 different shares interest in 2 smaller companies. One I just explained, which, where the result also has gone through the P&L. And the other one, we have sold 1 of our investments in our TAKKT Beteiligungsgesellschaft in parcelLab, where we were able to generate EUR 10.4 million from the sale, just to say, we have invested in that company just a couple of years before, EUR 0.7 million. So we -- more than 10x was the return on that investment. And that's predominantly here embedded in the figure of EUR 30 million. So that the proceeds from selling parcelLab investment as well as Simple System, which is the other investment where we had received the EUR 3 million. And so EUR 30 million have come in here in the cash flow statement through these 2 sales. Why is [indiscernible] parcel that's not the huge also result, which is, yes, almost EUR 10 million, EUR 9 million to EUR 10 million, which requires a [indiscernible] to the P&L. parcelLab was an investment where we owned less than 20% and Services accounting under IFRS, and not in the P&L, but actually it is as a new valuation in the equity. So it's not stated in the P&L if you own here, less than 20% and hence why you cannot see the win and the profit from that investments in our P&L. Balance sheet. You can see that we still have some perceived free TAKKT cash flow, which we used to pay back some debt. Why is our debt going up by EUR 26 million, while at the same time, we have paid a dividend. [indiscernible] mostly, we have paid 2 dividends. Remember that we said we're going to also pay a dividend for the business year 2019, which we have postponed last year. And so EUR 72 million dividend has gone out. And with the proceeds we have generated in that first half year, our debt has only gone up by EUR 26 million, now recording a figure of EUR 102 million half year. Equity ratio has gone down a bit. Again, similar story, the main reason is actually it gone down because we have paid out a dividend of EUR 72 million, which was higher than the profit we did for the same period for the positive currency effects we had in that period as well as some valuation investment effects, where the major one has been parcelLab with EUR 10 million. So EUR 72 million has been more than this 3 I just mentioned, and hence why equity ratio goes down. Looking at organic sales growth. Well, 25% second quarter coming from a slight minus in the first one, again, due to a lower comparison, but also to very good demand. That is the first statement I want to make here on that slide. And if we then look where it's coming from, it's -- yes, predominantly coming from the Omnichannel Commerce, 37%. So we have seen very good and strong growth in the Omnichannel Commerce. Web-focused and Food Service growing with 9% to 10%. So at the moment, our biggest segment is the driver for our sales figure, for our sales figure growth. And if we then compare these second quarter figures, growth rates with the same quarter 2020, you can see there the plus is slightly higher than the minus, but not good enough to come on absolute figures to compensate. And as I said, overall, we are 2% below '19, which explains here the different figures you see in the second quarter 2020 in the second quarter. Even -- and if I said Omnichannel Commerce, at the moment, is driving growth rates, it's also fair to say, of course, that if we look at the second quarter 2020, so that statement on that slide that, of course, this also has been the segment which was in the highest decline same period last year, whereas Web-focused and Foodservice Equipment also had much less decline in the second quarter 2020. Looking into the future, what can we see? We can see the economic environment, which is still very good on the demand but stretched in supply chain and transportation capacities, we expect these to continue, unfortunately. Is there another potential negative impact from a buyer's duration? The Delta 1, of course, is talked a lot about these days. And what does it do, when we go into autumn and winter? And what we expect is the recovery to continue for the target markets and there we should benefit with our business units being present there. We are still working on our strategic focus to implement our initiatives to drive organic growth in the business units, but at the same time, to build a new TAKKT, to build new segmental and Group structures in the TAKKT Group when it comes to IT infrastructure, logistics, data and so on and so on. A broader strategic program, which we have named TAKKT 4.0, last year. Outlook for key financials, we have increased our sales growth, our organic sales growth guidance. And that's important from 7% to 12% was we issued beginning of the year. Now we believe we can grow organically 12% to 17%. The biggest driver for that is price inflation, price inflation, which comes from vendors, which we are passing on, there's also a little bit more real demand, but the bigger driver here is compared to expectation. The bigger driver is price inflation. Important to say that this is an organic guidance so currency adjusted, we have to consider at the moment -- we are not forecasting, of course, U.S. dollar rates. But at the moment, it feels like the dollar would cost us roughly 2 percentage points growth in the reported figures. So the 12% to 17% on today's base would be more like a 10% to 15% growth on reported figures, the way the dollar stands at the moment compared to previous year. And the reason why our guidance for the profit is unchanged is that the main driver for the higher sales growth is price inflation. And as I explained it, we, at the moment, try to pass on all these costs, it's quite a huge amount, to the customer on absolute terms. That means that, that higher sales will not generate more profit, but it's trying to compensate us for higher cost of goods sold, which are coming in, and you can expect at the moment that our average cost increase coming from the vendors and the transportation cost is more in the range of double digits than it would be in a small single-digit increase. And that's the reason why we have, at the moment, managed the markets that we are passing on the absolute dollars, the absolute euros and not try to make an extra profit out of it. Normally, the TAKKT business would react if we go -- if we see price inflation coming from the vendors with small percentages, we would pass on the percentages, and so we would also make the same gross margin and the same -- yes, same gross margins. Here, we expect the gross margin to dilute in the second half due to that extraordinary, very unusual situation with this huge cost increases that quite significant inflation coming through from the vendors and then being passed on to the end market. Having said this, thanks for your attention. Thanks for listening to me. I'm happy to answer any questions which are possibly already on your list. Thank you.

[Operator Instructions] And the first question comes from Craig Abbott, Kepler Cheuvreux.

Yes, I want to start, please, with 2 questions. The first one is, I just want to understand a little bit more about this new sales tax in the U.S. on e-commerce companies? And just on that, a little bit more, what is it based on? Is it levied at the national level? Or was this just in some federal states that are relevant for your activities there? And that provision to me, was that just like a one-off step up? Or I mean just -- I'm just trying to get a feel for the dimension, what we can kind of expect as a percentage of sales going forward? That's the first point and the second point was I know you mentioned you're still working constant in course on your strategy and what further accelerate organic growth in your core businesses, but could you maybe give us some kind of update on your strategic plans for the Foodservice Equipment and Supplies division?

Thank you Craig, for your questions. Let's start with the sales tax, which actually really needs a few more explanations. First of all, it's rather complex topic, so I try to make it as easy as possible. We know the sales tax challenge. We have known that for decades and years. That's nothing new in principle. In the United States, it's got that more than 50 states. Every state, it's issuing its own regulation and rules when it comes to collecting the so-called sales tax. So that makes it already quite diverse because we've got the 52 states with all different ways of, yes, executing the sales tax. So it's a state issue. The sales tax in principle in the states is done in a way that if you've got a presence in that state, you are obliged to collect the sales tax from the customer and then, of course, passing it on to the state. Now for years and decades, people have, of course, in all these regulations debated, when have you got a presence in that state and when not? Of course, if you've got some real estate there, of course, if you've got a warehouse -- a warehouse is really state, if you've got some personnel there, sales rep already is -- is it [indiscernible] event? Is a trade show already a presence, Yes, no? And so on and so on in the year 2018, then there was a court, a Supreme Court decision, where a big e-commerce giant in the States was involved in. And the Supreme Court has decided that going forward, that it will now also be possible for the different states to collect the sales tax from businesses which are not physically present there, so also from these e-commerce traders. And that the state, each state has to decide on how to move forward with that decision. And so of course, the states have more and more put out regulations that they want to collect the sales tax. And very important in our portfolio for 3 out of 4 of our business units in the state that was not a big issue because they have dealt with that topic for years. Because they have not been a web-focused business, they have been an omnichannel business. And so they always have to check in every state, whether they've got a physical presence or not and to deal with that topic. Our web-focused business in this space had less experience than that. They, of course, had to collect the sales tax in the 1 or 2 states they were present, but for the rest, they were kind of, yes, they were in a favorable situation, not to have to collect the sales tax from the customer. And it's also, of course, then favorable in the pricing. And so we then had to run through all these regulations. And at the end, can only come in at similar to the other 3 business units with this challenge with a piece of software, which needs to be implemented. And if you look back, that piece of software was not implemented in a way that it worked in the first year to the degree it should work, and that's where our risk is coming from. So at the end, it's a combination of the change in regulation of sales tax being collected now also from e-commerce place in a state where they are not present with an implementation of a piece of software, which unfortunately hasn't worked out properly. And so this is all fine now. So all our business units, the 3 anyhow have always been compliant with the sales tax regulation. And the 1 has a period where, unfortunately, we haven't collected all the sales tax we should have collected. And so if we have not collected that from the customer, we are then in the obligo, and we have to, at some point, pay the bill. And in order to recover for that risk, and that still needs to be judged on and assessed, state by state. It's not a one-time assessment. It's -- you have to assess this 52 times and then have to find a way forward with the different states of how to deal with that. And that's why it is not an easy answer, sorry for that, but gives you some, hopefully, more color to what we're talking here, and we have provided for the risk we see here. So the question is, is there more risk? We have provided the most likely, yes. So there could also be a risk, which is slightly higher, but at the same time, there could be also a risk, which is slightly lower. This is the most probable amount we are possibly facing out of that situation. Going forward, even now since beginning of -- even more than 18 months, we have -- and sorry -- 15 months, we are -- the whole thing is working the way it should work. So going forward, this is done, but we are still phasing out of a past period that way. Update on strategic plans. We are still following the same plan when it comes to Food Equipment Supplies as we did. So there's no change. Of course, we need to analyze when is the best timing. And at the same time, what's the best option for us to go to the next step, but there's no change in thinking when it comes to Food Equipment and Supplies. And talking about strategic plans, I think it's fair to say when Maria now starts, Maria Zesch, 1st of August as a new CEO, not contradicting anything I said about Food Equipment Supplies, but of course, for the remainder of the Group, I'm sure we're going to also go through a strategic review with the new CEO, and once we are ready then to see some outcomes in that review. We will, of course, also then come back to you guys and explain in detail, if something has changed or not. And if something has changed, what that new possibly aspect is in our strategy.

Okay. That's very clear.

Sorry for the lengthy answer, but asking sales taxes. Sorry for that.

The next question comes from Mark Josefson, Pareto Securities.

I have a couple of smaller questions relating to the P&L and 1 hypothetical on the balance sheet. In terms of the P&L questions, I think you specified last year Q2 that there was a mid-single-digit reduction in the marketing spend. And I think there's a slight reduction as well in Q1 of this year. Can you give us some feel on what -- how that has reversed? Is it less fully or fully plus? And going on from that, what's the outlook from today's point of view for the marketing spend in the full year compared to 2020? That's my first question. Then with respect to TAKKT 4.0, which is still ongoing, are we likely to see any additional costs in the remainder of 2021? And then finally, with respect to the P&L account, the tax rate, of course, is a little bit lower in the first half because of the disposals. But can you give us a feel for the tax rate for the full year that we might be expecting to pay? And then finally, on the balance sheet or rather specifically with Displays2Go and the valuation of the asset base and the balance sheet, is it likely to suffer a write-down now that we've gone through, yes, maybe 18 months or so of quite significant downturn in the sales base, and some of this will recover, but possibly not to the level that we originally have in the books for?

Let me start with the marketing spend in the second quarter and also trying to look into a bit more in the future. And so looking at the full year. What I end observing at the moment is that the marketing spend -- and if we talk about marketing spend, we always talk about a ratio, marketing spend as a percentage of sales. If you look at our P&L, the marketing spend is the one which is by far more related and reacting to our sales figure than any other cost line, of course, because we are pushing out marketing in order to do sales. And it's also managed that way. So the marketing spend in the quarter 2 has been, at a ratio, slightly higher than before and also last year because we tried at the moment to, of course, yes, get some additional share and some additional customers in the recovery. For the full year, in our forecast, we've got a marketing cost ratio, where we are not that different to what we used to have in last year. So it will be very similar marketing spend ratio for 2021 compared to 2020. So there's a lot here, which is also happening seasonal. And the biggest difference, I guess, was last year in the second quarter, we have completely destocked printing in that decline. Whereas, of course, now this year, especially in the second quarter, we have started again to get some presales. And so that's a huge difference in the marketing spend, which accounted in the P&L. Additional costs from strategic programs. At the moment, we are not expecting any significant costs from any strategic parent program. So possibly the ones there and thereabouts, we would expect is something we would not really -- and now here on the Group level, when we talk here about the Group and the segment. So there's nothing at the moment, I see a material cost from strategic program, but I have to make a disclaimer from the current strategic [ permit ] has said that we're going to review with the new CEO, of course, the strategy going forward. But currently, I don't see any additional cost. But of course, with a new strategic program, there could always be one, but that's a different story. Balance sheet valuation Displays2Go. Yes, we started the business called Displays2Go, which is struggling. We have to wait longer to see the recovery. I, at the moment, don't see yet that we would be hugely under threat here when it comes to Displays2Go, at the end, it's goodwill we talk about determining -- to talk about goodwill writing it down, impairment. But Displays2Go, I don't see this challenge yet. But of course, we need to be to see what the third quarter brings, what the fourth quarter brings, how the world develops. But, if that was the same question, have we got a structure problem in that business, we don't see that yet because we can see that still, the environment needs to go into a state where we -- which is possible then to do the business. And where we're going to find out whether it's got a structure problem there or not. But I don't believe at the moment that there's a structure problem. We need to wait. Hubert, I talked about, which is struggling. We have seen now in June and July, good figures. So that's promising. If we compare it too, Hubert is in our goodwill impairment testing much closer and much more challenging. The profit and the goodwill relation at Displays2Go would have been in the past. But again, this is just a relative statement. So that's also something to watch when it comes to Hubert, whether going forward, we can see the same level of business or not. If we can see the same level of business, we shouldn't have a problem. Of course, structurally, we are falling significantly behind, and of course, we need to look at the valuation. Tax rate. Tax rate is expected to be between 24% and 25% this year, full year. If I take possibly a major onetime effect out because now on the EUR 2.5 million, we have been able to generate selling our investment on Simple System and that those market plays, which, by the way, we have invested in 20 years ago. That's quite an old investment. If we take that out, then 24% to 25% is a good estimate for our tax rate [indiscernible].

At the moment, there seems to be no further questions. [Operator Instructions] There are no more questions from the audience.

Okay. So then thank you all for participating in our earnings call. And please again touch at any time if there are any questions after the call. And yes, we'll publish our Q3 results on October 28. This year, goodbye, Stay safe and have a great moment.

The conference is no longer being recorded.