Tanger Inc. (SKT) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Good morning, everyone, and welcome to day 4 of Citi's Global Property CEO Conference. We're going to get this party started. I'm Michael Bilerman, I'm here with Katy McConnell with Citi Research. We're extraordinarily pleased to have with us Tanger Factory Outlets and CEO, Stephen Yalof. This session is for investing clients only. If media or other individuals are on the line, please disconnect now. Disclosures are available up on the webcast. Now for those joining us on the webcast, if you want to ask management any questions, you can do that simply by typing them into the question box on the screen, and those are going to come directly to Katy and myself, and we'll do our best to weave them into the conversation. Stephen, I'm going to turn it over to you to introduce the company and any members of the management team that are with you here today, and then at some point, either in the opening comments or we can do it as a first question, we've been asking every CEO coming out of the pandemic if an investor were to choose only 1 real estate stock to own, what are the 3 reasons why they should invest in Tanger. And we can come back to that, that's not part of the opening comments.

Great. Well, thanks, Michael, and good morning, Katy. With me this morning is Jim Williams, our CFO; and our IR team, Cyndi Holt and Ashley Curtis. Tanger Outlets is the only publicly traded REIT specializing solely in the development, leasing, marketing and operations of upscale open-air outlet centers in the United States and Canada. Our outlet center portfolio is differentiated from traditional malls and other bricks-and-mortar retail channels to the value proposition that we afford our tenants, our favorable supply dynamic and the flexibility of our real estate. Our tenants tell us that the outlets are one of their most productive and profitable distribution channels with higher margins and lower shop fit, customer acquisition and logistics costs in other retail formats. The demand associated with this level of profitability has supported our long record of high occupancy. Outlets provide retailers a direct touch point to the consumer and allow our tenants to maintain brand integrity through control of our product, placement and pricing. We believe the outlet industry is underbuilt in the United States with less than 200 centers comprising approximately 70 million square feet of leasable space. The outlet industry represents 1% of total retail space in the United States. Tanger Outlet Centers are built smart, and their flexible design requires less capital to reconfigure than other retail formats given standard bay depths and lack of anchor boxes that could be very costly to redevelop. Furthermore, formats such as full-price specialty stores, department store clearance racks, stand-alone discount stores and online shopping all fall short on at least one of the 3 key ingredients that make outlet shopping so appealing to the customer. An open-air collection of the most sought-after brands, merchandising their own lifestyle format at everyday value pricing. Additionally, our centers provide a place to enjoy a social experience and the ability to physically interact with products before making a purchase and to enjoy the purchase the very same day. The impact of COVID-19 on the retail sector is evident, and our business was not immune to rate concessions and revenue losses related to stay-at-home orders and government mandate closures of nonessential retail stores, resulting in retail bankruptcies and brand-wide restructurings. However, several of our operating metrics have improved throughout the year. As mandates were lifted, our stores in our centers reopened rapidly, demonstrating how highly retailers value Tanger Outlet Centers. As the retailers returned, so did the shoppers, embracing our open-air centers as a preferred venue for shopping and entertainment, while full year traffic reflected the mandated shutdown at 77% of last year's levels. By the fourth quarter, traffic had returned to 90% of the prior year. Second quarter rent collections were expected to be low given our proactive deferral program, but rent collections improved to 91% of the third quarter of billed rents and 95% of fourth quarter billed rents. Sustaining growth over time is the top priority for the entire Tanger team, and we will achieve this by focusing on our core business, which is the leasing, the operating and marketing of our shopping centers. We're accelerating our leasing efforts by broadening our tenant mix and expanding our leasing resources. We're installing new-to-industry and new-to-platform retailers and taking steps to introduce luxury, digitally native brands, home categories, food and beverage and entertainment uses. In addition to our best-in-class team of leasing professionals, we have empowered our field management teams to work their markets and generate local leasing activity. This strategy has proven most dynamic during the past 12 months, when many national leasing representatives were restricted from traveling. Additionally, in several major markets, we're leveraging national leasing brokers to support our in-house resources and generate transactions with new retailers and new categories. Lastly, through our newly implemented minority-owned business initiative, we are offering opportunities for new and existing businesses in our communities to set up shop in Tanger centers supported by our proprietary suite of services. We are reshaping our operations discipline by empowering our field teams to actively manage the net operating income of their centers and employing efficient expense management and participating in revenue generation. In addition to local leasing, generating ancillary revenue through various business development opportunities such as sponsorship, paid media and short-term leasing initiatives, we will be -- this will be a key focus for us on a going-forward basis. Our center marketing directors are community-facing and empowered to develop on-center programming and activations that serve as both regional and local draws to our shopping centers. We're advancing our marketing strategy to meet shoppers where they want to shop. We intend to engage them in ways they find meaningful and drive their connection with our brand. We are intensifying our focus and loyalty at the launch of our 3 ways to shop: in-store, curbside pickup and our innovative Tanger Virtual Shopper service, which was just the beginning of our digital transformation. In early '21, we continue to navigate the pandemic and work through the related headwinds, we remain determined to turn these challenges into opportunities. We're confident in the long-term prospects of our industry and our company. During 2020, we established the groundwork to position Tanger for growth. We believe that executing on our strategy of enhancing our core business, accelerating leasing, reshaping our operations and advancing our marketing strategy will result in sustained positive operating metrics over time and create value for all of our stakeholders. We plan to continue thoughtfully use of our resources to maintain a conservative financial position, our balance sheet with no significant maturities until the end of 2023, $600 million of availability under our unsecured lines of credit and more than $80 million of cash on our balance sheet as of the end of 2020, leaves us well positioned if challenging market conditions should persist and provides us with the flexibility to act quickly to take advantage of accretive opportunities when appropriate. Thanks, Michael. I turn it back to you.

Thanks for that, Steve. So we want to start by asking the following. Coming out of the pandemic, if an investor were to choose only 1 real estate stock to own, what are the 3 reasons why they should invest in Tanger?

Well, our open-air outlet centers have proven resilient and important distribution channel for both our retailers and our shoppers. Our focus on driving long-term sustained growth by enhancing our core business, leasing, marketing and operating our shopping centers. And our balance sheet is solid and positioned for growth.

Perfect. Can you talk a little bit about the traffic levels that are coming to your centers? First, from the perspective just of the customers. And I don't know how much data you can pull out of sort of the Tanger shopper card, data about whether they're coming or whether you're getting the data direct from the retailers, but just talk about the sort of aggregate volume where the shoppers are coming from. How much -- if it's just local market and just getting out versus have you started to see over the last few weeks where it seems there's much more optimism, people are getting around, people are traveling. How much of a tourist aspect have started to return? I just didn't know if you can peel it back from a -- from the data that you have.

Yes. Well, let's start with Q4. Q4 traffic was up over 90 -- to about 90% of where it was last year, which we thought was extremely encouraging, particularly for the positioning of our shopping centers. As you know, we're located mainly in these drive-to American tourist locations. But a new dynamic that's emerging in a lot of these locations is the second home phenomenon, where typically our shopping centers were seeing the hotels fill up and then every week, a whole different crowd of people would fill those shopping centers. What we're finding is that there's a lot of people that have repositioned themselves, particularly in the fourth quarter to some of those second homes or thanks to Vrbo and Airbnb have taken places, particularly in some of the Sunbelt cities, and we're going to sort of reap the benefit of that because most of our properties are positioned in a lot of those communities. So we've been seeing a lot more repeat customers than we might have in years past. So that's sort of lent itself to those significant traffic increase that we saw during the fourth quarter. January was even more compelling. Our -- ex Canada, the Canadian shopping centers were closed during the month of January due to mandates, but our shopping centers reached almost 99% of last year's levels. And we do this using our traditional traffic counting that we've been using for years. Obviously, February, unfortunately, due to nationwide weather patterns, we haven't seen the same increase in February that we had seen in January. But anecdotally, as we speak to the retailers, they all share with us the fact that fourth quarter sales were above expectation. The outlet channel is a proven channel for them and one where they were able to sustain their profitability. Also, they saw great higher-than-average conversion rates. I think that that's probably pretty consistent primarily because we operated at fewer hours. And mandates with regard to in-store occupancy made sort of -- made it restrictive, and so we saw lines out the door. So a customer who's willing to wait in line is definitely one that's motivated to spend money when they shop.

And in terms of the engagement with the customers there, are you able to glean how many of your Tanger customers that have your rewards program, are they -- what level base -- because I think there were like millions of people in that thing. Are you able to track them in that way?

We are. And we communicate very closely with them. But as you know, we stood up these 3 ways to shop at the beginning of the pandemic, one of which was our Virtual Shopper program. And the bulk of the folks that interacted with Virtual Shopper were those VIPs. So for example, if they're shopping -- say, if they shopped in Riverhead, and that center hadn't opened yet, they were able to access product through places like Sevierville, Tennessee that opened in late April. So we were able to communicate. As we got a little bit more sophisticated with that program, retailers started to stand up photographs and catalogs of product that you can find in an outlet on the Tanger app, on the Tanger web. So most of those VIP customers were able to do sort of window shopping online before they either purchase through the virtual channel or it actually converted them into a more meaningful on-store visit.

You talked a little bit about the leasing strategy in terms of trying to bring new-to-industry as well as new-to-Tanger platform tenants. Can you talk a little bit about sort of the early success in doing that? And what impact it could have for the portfolio?

Sure. Well as you know, we got a lot of space back last year by virtue of corporate restructuring and some of the bankruptcies where they rejected some of their leases. So we needed to get creative in order -- so we attacked leasing from several different fronts. Obviously, local leasing was a big initiative for us. As you know, our portfolio has always carried that 97%, 98%, 99% occupancy. So there's often has not been a lot of opportunity for some of the iconic local retailers to take space in some of our outlet centers. But we saw some of this occupancy as opportunity for us to take advantage and actually add new-to-platform retailers that added variety to the shopping center, but also gave our customers a reason to stay a little bit longer. And dwell time equals more sales, more sales, great for the retailers. And anything that's great for the retailers is great for us. But to give you an example of a recent new-to-platform retailer, we just opened last week in a vacant Neiman Marcus box in Deer Park, the first ever in-outlet Dick's Sporting Goods Warehouse. And the early returns are extremely good. Obviously, 1 week doesn't make the market, but we're confident that that's a program that we're going to roll out on a going-forward basis.

And that was their first outlet type store?

They have a warehouse program, but it was the first warehouse store that they've opened up in an outlet center.

In an outlet center. And what type of -- when you do a deal like that, I assume it's a bigger box because it was an old Neiman's. Is that like just a percentage rent-type deal or...

It's a hybrid, it's a base against percentage, but our expectation is the percentage is going to be meaningful.

Okay. And then you talked a little bit about sort of driving leasing at the center level. Is that a different initiative than they had been before, in part driven by your comment that when you were so highly occupied, that local leasing person didn't have much of an opportunity. But it sounded like you were creating an incentive structure for them to not only drive leasing, but to drive other income sources as well.

Yes. And this is -- look, I'm taking something out of an old playbook, but I think it's something that we can definitely support when we see over 180 million people to our shopping centers a year. And so that's a lot of opportunity to offer them things like sponsorship and paid media. So our -- we have got an initiative to add electric car charging in a lot of our shopping centers as well. So we see all these as opportunities, but from a leasing point of view, during the pandemic, when nobody was able to travel, we needed to really leverage our center management teams in order to get out in their communities and offer the space. They were the boots on the ground, and that proved to be quite fruitful. There was an example in Sevierville, Tennessee, a shopping center that's always run about 99% or 100% occupant, but because of some of that restructuring that I spoke about earlier, we saw vacancy in the shopping center we might never have seen before. We were able to bring in a local entertainment use that has proven very beneficial. When a carload of people shows up at an outlet center, usually most of them want to shop, but there's usually 1 or 2 people in the car that are looking for something else to do. Well, we feel it's incumbent upon us to find something to do for that other person who may not want to shop, and therefore, if we can entertain them, whether it's a golf simulator, like the one that we just added in our shopping center in South Carolina, a moonshine tasting store, which is -- we added in Sevierville in the Smoky Mountains in Tennessee. So we're trying to find iconic uses in our individual markets and geographies that will keep that customer there longer and hopefully build greater sales in our stores.

Is there an estimate as you think to think about these types of initiatives to drive more NOI at every center? To think about 5% of NOI from a base NOI, I think, we're going to add 5% to that base or is it 10%? Is there some sort of idea of type of return on capital or incremental profitability of the center that you're trying to target?

Well yes, that's -- our budget rolls up incremental same-store NOI across our portfolio. So that's what we're targeted to achieve. And the stack of strategies that we have to build NOI just pile up one on top of the other, whether it's short-term local leasing initiatives to turn vacancy into cash while we're holding that space essentially for a long term retailer to come in and take that space or some of the shorter-term initiatives that we have to keep the shopping centers vibrant, keep variety across the offering and give something for that shopper to really dig into when they get to our centers.

So we have a couple of questions here on the web, maybe we can touch on a couple of them now. So first of all, just as you think about e-commerce and the future that, that plays in the outlet space, how much of a risk do you view that to the long-term survivability of your outlets? And then also within that question, maybe you can touch on the difference between outlets being used for excess inventory as opposed to made for outlets?

Well, the first part of the question, all I have to really point to is how quickly the retailers opened once the nonessential store mandates were lifted. 99% of our lease space is open across our portfolio. Retailers opening stores very quickly in the outlet space to me signals the fact that the outlet channel's extremely important. Now coming off of a huge acceleration in e-commerce, I think that's pretty telling. We have the uses in our shopping centers, apparel, footwear, accessories, et cetera. I think there's a real demand and need of the consumer to actually get out and physically touch a lot of that product before they buy that product. So some of that product doesn't necessarily translate into an online purchase. But from an online point of view, we're embracing it. We think we want to be part of that omnichannel ecosystem. We don't want to fight the omnichannel ecosystem. So by standing up programs like Virtual Shopper, I think we're giving our customer the opportunity to shop where they are. And I think that's a big message that we've learned, particularly through COVID, is that the customer wants convenience, they want to window shop online. And if they're going to make a trip, they want to know what they're going to get when they make that trip. Kind of flies in the face a little bit of the outlet center of old, which was about the treasure hunt and the window shop and with the excitement of finding things. And I think there's a core customer that still gets that thrill when they shop our centers, but there is also another set of customers that really want to have a purposeful trip. They want to know they're going to get what they want when they get there and our standing up a lot of products, particularly on Tanger web and Tanger app gives them the opportunity to do that. And I think that's going to be an important part of our business on a going-forward basis, so much so that we've built a digital transformation team to execute to just that. As far as product is concerned, I think the product really runs the gamut, particularly in outlet centers. There are brands like Lululemon, that's really -- and Nike, for that matter, that are primarily excess inventory or things that have store returns, stores like Polo that have the same. They have rounders and rounders of products that were department -- that came from department stores or probably came from their full-price retail channel. But again, a lot of these retailers have learned over time that the occupancy costs, the cost to stand up outlet, make their retail margin so compelling that -- and the traffic to the shopping centers is so big that they feel they have to add lines of merchandise to those stores so they don't disappoint the customer when the customer gets there.

And can you just talk a little bit more about how that virtual platform works and how much more adoption you saw over the course of the pandemic?

Sure. We stood the program up as a beta test in June. The original program was built literally as an accommodation to our VIP customers who couldn't -- who weren't ready to leave their homes and shop live or didn't have an open store in their market that they could shop. In each one of our shopping centers, we have customer service representatives. They're part of our staff. And as we had mentioned a few quarters ago, we didn't lay anybody off, we didn't furlough any of our employees. So when we reopened our shopping centers, we were ready for business. We leveraged our customer service representatives to be the shopping concierge. Most of them have some tenure with our shopping centers, know the brand, know the product, know the stores and through an interaction, most of them over telephone, over FaceTime, these stores were physically shopped by these customer service representatives. As the program has evolved over time, we're able to do it on Facebook, through Facebook Live, but we're also able to stand some of the products up online so that, that customer can actually pick the product online before they transact. And Virtual Shopper for us is an evolution. It's in process. We have had over 380,000 interactions with Virtual Shopper on our site. We were not set up to facilitate that many transactions, but it is proof-of-concept and something that we're planning on growing into the future and will be a sustained part of our suite of services as we move forward.

Steve, is there anything from a development of just people perspective? You talked about not having furloughed any employees, obviously, you worked with your tenants to defer a lot of rents, which I'm sure built a lot of goodwill on both sides, both with your customers as well as with your employees. As you sort of navigate the future, are there elements that you want to add to the organization in terms of roles, responsibilities, different areas to make Tanger more competitive?

Well, sure. So first of all, I talked earlier that we just added a digital transformation team. And that's brand-new to Tanger. We understand -- we've got -- we've long had an app and long had a great website. But now we want to be more commercial in that space. So we added a gentleman who just joined us, who actually built the Fly Delta Airline app and has joined us to help us build our app and help us build our digital initiatives going forward. One of the other major transitions that we made on our team over the past 3 to 4 months is we've taken our shopping center management team that was primarily run by marketing folks and installed true shopping center operators. The reason for doing that was to create a center-first thesis so as we run those shopping centers that center -- that shopping center manager is essentially the CEO of the center. He owns the P&L, or she may be managing our expenses to a more efficient matter in realtime. We also created a shared service, where that shared service handles a lot of our corporate buying, using our scale to write better contracts and things like corporate security, corporate maintenance, janitorial, et cetera. So where traditionally that stuff had been done at the field level, we think there's better buying power by doing it from shared service level. And then the flip side of that, where we were managing our shopping centers from a more centralized location back in Greensboro by having that management team live and active at the individual centers, we're seeing tremendous amount of progress there. Expense savings -- expense efficiency which is critical, doing more with less, making sure that we do not, by any means, give up any of the quality shopping experience that our customers have come to enjoy when they shop at Tanger Outlet. And that's first and foremost. So when we manage expenses, essentially, what we're trying to do is be more creative, do more with less, but make sure that by no means are we giving up anything on the experience front. We believe that's what differentiates us from the competition, and we're going to lean very heavily into that.

So maybe we could talk a little bit about pop-up stores. You saw an increase in that in fourth quarter. So is that some of that demand coming from the new-to-outlet retailers that you mentioned earlier? And to what extent are you seeing conversion of that to more permanent leases, particularly after the holiday season?

Yes. Well, if you just go back a couple of years, Lululemon, Tory Burch, Vineyard Vines all started in our portfolio as pop-up stores that ultimately converted into long-term leases that we were able to roll out across our portfolio. So we think that that's a strength. That pop-up store strategy, but there's short-term leasing and there's pop-up leasing. To us, pop-up leasing really speaks to national retailers that may or may not have been in the outlet business before so that we can give them an opportunity to try before you buy because we think that once they get a taste of the margin opportunity, the sales opportunity, and most importantly, the acquisition of customer. It's inexpensive to acquire a new customer when you stand up a store in an outlet because the occupancy cost is so inexpensive relative to other bricks-and-mortar format. But also the cost of building the store is relatively inexpensive. First of all, we're an outlet center. So we're not building a Madison Avenue flagship store and a lot of the stores that we had, in an outlet center, we provide that fourth wall, which is that storefront. And so the retailer doesn't have the expense of building that signature storefront. So in a pop up store, we're really giving them a turnkey operation that they can just put their product in. So over the past 4 or 6 months, Katy, we've added J.McLaughlin, Psycho Bunny, digitally native brands that have -- that are opening stores in bricks-and-mortar environments to test it, to see how that works out. And in those instances, in the case of Psycho Bunny, we sold out of merchandise and our expectation is they'll come back this summer to Riverhead, but others such as Lafayette 148, yes, the answer is we're working on a long-term deal with them right now. So I think the try before you buy works for a lot of these brands. They want to I want to make sure that they've got a customer base, but where they're being most surprised is the profitability and the new customer that they're seeing that may not have shopped their store before, that they can now own that customer and trade them up into higher gross product.

And then excluding pop-ups, how deep would you say is the pool of potential new tenant demand relative to what it was prepandemic?

I think that remains to be seen. We're a creative leasing team. We're a well-known brand. I think the traffic numbers, the speed at which the retailers returned, I think it all speaks to positive talking points when we get in front of retailers. We have a very compelling story to tell. Our channel is a profitable one. Our channel is one where it's -- the cost of standing up a store is relatively less expensive than any other bricks-and-mortar channel. And as we get in front of retailers, it's very compelling. That was the story we shared with Dick's, and we're able to secure a 32,000-square foot store.

And then can you just touch on how leasing demands have differed by market? And in particular, some of your more destination outlets, how have they performed over the course of the pandemic?

Well, the destination, when you talk about the destination outlets, we're referencing our sort of drive-to American City-based centers like Myrtle Beach, Hilton Head. Yes, those centers have fared extremely well. I think people are still and have traveled during the summer, they traveled during the holiday. In fact, I personally drove from New York to Florida during the New Year's week. I visited every one of our shopping centers along the journey and was extremely pleasantly surprised with how packed our shopping centers were. People want to get out. Our open-air shopping centers provide the opportunity to not only allow people to shop, which is a great sport for a lot of people, but it's also an entertaining opportunity to be with your friends, you can be with your families, it's open-air, so it's inviting, where there's not -- there's very little -- there are very few venues where people can gather with friends and family, and I think they found that our open-air shopping centers were a great place to do that, particularly over that holiday season.

Great. And then I'll take another one here from the web. Someone asked, do you expect retail bankruptcies to be lower this year versus last? And if lower, do you still expect it to be above average?

Yes, I think it still will be above average. We guided to about 200,000 square feet that we think we're going to get back in the first half of the year, which is materially less than what we got back last year. But I would say, slightly higher than a normal year.

Steve, the lines between all retail formats are blurring to some extent, in part just driven by the tenants that are going in different formats. I guess how do you sort of see the evolution of the outlets in terms of the overall tenancy mix, just given the fact that you have things going on within the mall business, you have things going on with power centers, lifestyle centers, grocery-anchored strips? And just in terms of trying to find whether you want to be confined to 1 niche or are you able to use your outlet centers in different ways?

Well, first of all, I think the outlet center is really important. The positioning of an outlet center historically has always been just outside of the major geography because there was a competition issue where a lot of the major retailers didn't want to compete either with themselves in a regional mall or they don't want to compete with their department store business. And I think that, that paradigm still holds true for a lot of retailers. They want to build their full price business, they want to use the outlet center business to either clear excess inventory, engage a new customer or get the benefit of selling through an outlet specific product. And I think that, that works for a lot of those retailers. But as I mentioned earlier, Michael, we're getting back space in centers that have historically never gotten space back before. The Bass stores all closed, the Wilson stores all closed, and they didn't discriminate and only closed stores where they weren't performing, they closed their top-performing stores as well. So in some of our best shopping centers, we have space that we had never seen before in great positions. And our leasing team, we're actually being extremely strategic in filling that space, deciding whether or not we want to fill it with an outlet retailer or we want to fill it with a retailer that's going to provide a different use for a different customer who may come and shop our center, whether it's food and beverage, one of the entertainment uses that we talked about earlier, an experiential use. So we want to take advantage of that opportunity to round out the variety and the assortment in the shopping center, again with the endgame of drawing more customers to our centers and getting them to stay there longer when we get them there.

Is there anything happening in the transaction market? And I recognize between yourselves and your prior organization, you control a lot of the outlets in the country, especially the ones that you would be competitive to. But is there any unlocking of centers that you can buy? Or is there sort of anything that you would want to sell and sort of what the environment is like?

Well, we just said in the last quarter, we just got rid of 2 noncore centers, 1 in Terrell, Texas and 1 in Jeffersonville, Ohio. So yes, we're always looking to prune the centers that we think will be a drag to our business. And on the flip side, we've got a pretty strong balance sheet, Michael. So we can take advantage of opportunities if presented. The one thing we do have on our radar, we announced a project in Nashville. We put that project on hold just because it's our practice to not go in the ground on a new shopping center unless we have 50% to 60% of that shopping center pre-leased. And unfortunately, travel restrictions have kept a lot of our retailer partners from getting on a plane and coming to see our property with us. Hopefully, that will change soon, but it's not good business for retailers to sign a lease without having seen the property. So once we get them out there to see the property, we know the demand is there, we know the market is great, so we have high expectation that we'll be able to deliver that project in the year.

Okay. Great. So we have a bunch of rapid-fire questions to close those the session. Top 3 priorities to improve your ESG score next year.

Well, first of all, we're doing -- we're currently conducting materiality assessment. And that's going to help us guide our ongoing strategy and our goals and our objectives. Secondly, we're committed to the ongoing improvement in transparency in our reporting with a focus on improving our GRESB score. And lastly, we're assessing climate risk and using the TCFD. We're using their framework in order to do so.

Okay. When we physically are sitting together after our drive from New York down to Florida at next year's conference a year from today, it sounds like I think we'd learn a lot if we did that drive with you. What will be the 1 thing that will have surprised people the most about your business over the prior 12 months?

I'm going to say the speed at which the retailers open their stores once the mandates were lifted and how quickly our shoppers came back to shop our channel.

What do you think your corporate travel budget will be in 2022 as a rough percentage of what the company spent in 2019?

At least 100%.

Same-store NOI growth for the outlet center overall. Katy, that's kind of not us giving guidance for once. Have you changed that?

Can you broaden that a little bit?

How about just retail? Just go retail.

For retail, I'm going to say 3% to 4%.

And 10-year treasury yield a year from now. It's about 1.50% currently.

1.75%.

Okay. Great. Steve, thank you so much for being with us today, and have a great rest of the conference.

Thanks so much. This was great.

Thanks again.

Thanks, everyone.

Bye.