Teleperformance SE (TEP) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Hello, and welcome to the TP employee representative Q&A session with investors and analysts. My name is Caroline, and I'll be your coordinator for today's event. Please note, this call is being recorded. [Operator Instructions] I will now hand over the call to your host, Mr. Bhupender Singh, President of the Transformation, to begin today's conference. Thank you.

Thank you, Caroline, and hello once again. Thank you for joining this call. And just to remind all of us, this is a Q&A session with Veronique and Vaggelis, who are our directors, and the representatives of Teleperformance employees on our Board. After what happened last Thursday, Veronique and Vaggelis reached out to us, and they said that they'll be happy to share their perspectives on any of the questions that investors may have. And so obviously, we sincerely appreciate this and thank them for doing this and took the opportunity to do this session with you all. And before I do an introduction of Veronique and Regulus, for whatever it is worth, I just want to highlight, we have not asked them to say something or not say something. This is an unscripted and open session with them. And same way, I will not tell you what you can ask or what you cannot ask. I leave this to your discretion. Just remember that both Veronique and Vaggelis, are our Board members. They are not the management committee. So they may not have all the operational details, especially on matters that are outside their limit. But again, this is up to your discretion, what you ask, and it's up to their discretion as to how they respond to it. So now let me quickly introduce the two of them. If you can please put the slide with the -- yes. So we got Veronique, who has been our Board member since 2020. She joined the company in 2007 and today manages the group insurance and risk compliance projects out of Paris. And Vaggelis, he's on our Board. He's also a member of European Workers Council, he's a member of Bureau there. He joined TP in 2004 as an agent. And with us during this process, he completed his bachelors and has gone through the ranks. And today, he's an operations manager and account manager. As luck would have it, he's also the person who started the trust and safety operations, our first project in trust and safety in Greece. And so given that the topic is of great relevance, again, this was not planned. But given this of relevance, it's good to have him here from that perspective too. So now I'll hand it over back to the moderator for the Q&A. I will be more as a listener and try not to open my mouth. Thank you.

[Operator Instructions] We will take the first question from Matthias Palis from, [ Rett ] Management.

One question is we tend to understand that Accenture included in their contracts at close warning of how psychologically challenging the content moderators job is -- do you also have disclosed in your contracts for your employees? Or -- and if so, is it present in all contracts for content moderators?

Can you please rephrase -- Vaggelis here. Can you please rephrase the disclosing of contracts of the employees. We're talking about the labor contract?

Yes, exactly. The work contract of content moderators. So do you have a close in your work contracts for content moderators informing them of the psychological challenges of carrying out this job?

Of course, that is a process that's happening during hiring.

[Operator Instructions] There are no questions coming through.

Let's give us a couple of more minutes either people have got all their questions answered or there is some other reason we don't know. But everyone who's on the call, this is an open session. you are free to ask any questions. And I'm sure Veronique and Vaggelis will do their best to answer it.

We will take the first -- the next question from a from Viara Thompson from UBS.

Could you talk about the typical conversations and the typical problems, demand that workers in this role in content moderation, have with you or with the company.

Definitely. And thank you for that question. It's really, really good and to the point. Taking my experience in regards to managing an account of trust and safety. First of all, we have a lot of mechanism where we are getting constant feedback from the employees. It's flowing from multiple and various channels. The content moderators per se for the job that they are performing, they're -- I don't want to use their own world like struggles. The challenges are in regards to the clarity of the knowledge base that they are using because they want to deliver, they want to be more efficient and more affecting. But in regards to the challenges of the moderators, how Teleperformance is handling this with its clients, different T&S clients is we are reaching out, arranging what we call internally clarification calls. Giving examples, specific examples from the knowledge base and getting those questions answered that we can get them back to the moderators so that they can continue and label either tag their jobs.

I understand this is related to their training when they first start, and not after they have been doing the job, 6 or 12 months. Is that correct?

That is true. Their production, not necessarily through the training. But also while they're doing their job, yes, unless I didn't get the question.

You mentioned that the questions are about the knowledge base. So what is -- can you elaborate what that is?

I will try as much as I can based on confidentiality. So let me give you an example. And that example is what we have been giving to during the recruitment process, like to try and explain to a person who hasn't worked on content moderation, what their job is going to look like. So for example, during content moderations review process. That's what we call when someone is reviewing specific content and has to make a decision. Someone might come across, let's say, any month. Any month is actually a flyer an invitation for someone's party or an event at a bar. In that demand definitely will contain graphics of people dancing. At the top, it might have text mentioning the venue address, when the doors are opening. And at the bottom, it might have a text saying, hello all, join me at my party and let's drink all the vodkas from the bar. Now initially, everyone would understand if someone was asked, do we see this content as being offensive or not? Initially, everyone would think no, because we'd assume that we don't see nudity, we don't see graphic content, something really offensive over there. But based on, I would say, some client prompting a user to consume alcohol is against its policies. So by definition and by the guidelines of the client, we need to label that specific content as inappropriate. We do not know at this point what the client is going to do with that information. The question and the challenge an agent, an employee would have is to make sure that he or she identifies correctly the label of the alcohol. So in that case, my example was vodka, right? It could be a drink from somewhere else in the world, somewhere that someone doesn't recognize that this is an alcoholic beverage. So those are the questions that we might take over to our clients for getting clarifications. I hope with my example, I was descriptive enough.

Yes. Okay. Maybe just 1 question. Our understanding has been that one of the complaint is that the agents don't get enough technological support. Can you -- maybe talk about the programs in this respect. Report that is available.

Definitely, definitely. First of all, the account that I'm working for is under the global umbrella of trust and safety for Teleperformance. So the framework for wellness support is identical. Now in regards to mental health and counseling support, there is availability for all the employees during all hours of operations. What kind of support is provided? It's provided in one-to-one sessions with counseling experts or psychological or psychologists or in group coaching sessions. The usage of that time, we call it wellness time, is reported weekly and monthly to our client. This is a contractual agreement to utilize the available wellness time. In regards to ours, also our client I just want to make sure for the audience that I am not working for the client in discussion, but I am working for another T&S account. But also our clients do require us to provide evidence in those weekly and monthly connects that we have from the activities, group activities, that we performed with the employees. This is a very well secured process for our employees that it's being actually used because we are also being audited twice a year in regards to our wellness program. And this is reported back to our client via a third-party supplier. I'm not aware if I can mention the name, so I will not about the third-party supplier. And the evidence, of course, is given from the client reporting tool, Teleperformance reporting tool and any other as requested. What do I mean by that? To sum it up, if we are not going to deliver the required wellness hours to our employees, it's a contractual breach. I hope I answered your question.

We will take the next question from line Nicole Manion.

I had 2. The first one is about the training and onboarding that your employees do. Is that all orchestrated through you in conjunction with the client, trying to sort of make sense of what your employees day-to-day looks like? Are they using only systems and tools that have been designed by you or by the client also? That's the first question. And the second question, I just wanted to ask about any exit surveys you do on why employees may leave their roles and whether that's to take up other opportunities because they found the role difficult or unsatisfied with pay or conditions. If you get any feedback on that and if it's any different than what you get in your normal kind of customer experience roles outside of content moderation.

Thank you very much. I will try to answer both of the questions to my best. In regards to training, the systems are being used are only the clients. We are not -- we do not have the knowledge base nor we are able to get the content in our systems. So whether we're talking about the knowledge base that the employees are trained on, it's inside our client system and also the work that they're going to deliver is going to be done in the client system. Does that respond to the first question?

Yes. Yes, that's clear.

And in regards to exit surveys, unfortunately, I don't have the view for my colleagues in Bogota, but I can answer partially overall. And secondly, from my experience here in Greece. The overall answer would be that the attrition rate for content moderators is compared to the rest of the LOBs of the company is really, really low. So we have a stickiness, I would call it, in that role. In regards to the exit surveys and what I'm observing for our operations in Greece. Since we are a multilingual hub here in Greece, as you understand, we are hiring people across Europe and Middle East. The major driver of the people resigning is because they want to return back to their countries, to their families after a certain period. And that is from 2 up to 4 years. That's my knowledge for the exit surveys. Again, in Greece. I don't have the visibility for Bogota. Of course, we can have the information as members of the Board, but I wasn't prepared to give you numbers based on that.

Okay. Got it. Can I just ask one follow-up, if that's okay. Are there any sort of time limits or constraints on the duration that people can do certain tasks or work or whether it has been maybe reported in some of the businesses that given the challenging nature of this content, people either don't do the roles for a certain length of time in a particular day that's too much or even for a period of time, it isn't recommended that somebody does this role for more than a year or whatever it might be? What kind of constraints and limits do you have both on employees day-to-day and maybe anything longer term, if at all?

So for content moderation, there are 2 practices we are applying. One is in regards to the long term, this is a job that can be quite repetitive. The contrast with the call center business is that in the call center, each interaction can be different because we are dealing with people. In content moderation, you might be viewing the same text, the same image with different -- from different angles throughout the day, and that could be based on the workflow quite repetitive and boring. So in the long term, we have rotation systems where the employees can request to be transferred, after a certain period to be transferred to another workflow within trust -- within the trust and safety account that is in the long term. In the short term, in regards to the moderators day-to-day operations, their whole shift is splitted into intervals with short breaks. So within a period of the first 2 working hours, depending on the client and the client tool that we are using, you might have the option to have a pop-up message to remind to the employee to start his or her first small break, 15 minutes break. And every 2 hours, they are being advised to get an extra break. Overall, in content moderation, the employees are getting longer breaks than the rest of our colleagues.

Okay. That was very informative. Sorry to attach one as a follow-up but directly related to what you've just said. Some of the media reports indicated that people got some element of penalty or at least reward bonus in their contracts if they met certain targets, i.e., reviewed a certain number of items of content in a day. Just to get a gauge on how realistic those targets are, do you have any data about what percentage of people meet them in total or in part, and therefore, get what can be quite a large component of their pay in bonus. Do you have any stats around that?

Thank you. That's a really good question. That's a question that we have here in Greece as well with our new hires, especially the ones that have been working in the call center in the past. In content moderation, at least for the trust and safety account that I am working, it's within the contractual agreement of our client not to incentivize or penalize quantitative results. This translates that we should not create bonus scheme, and we should not penalize any employee who is not reaching a certain amount of jobs within the day, within the week, within the month. Any kind of bonus scheme should be applied based on the qualitative performance.

The next question from Firmino Morgan from [ Menno ].

I am hearing myself.

Moderator has closed out.

Yes, I will have to move to the next question, which is Anvesh Agrawal from Morgan Stanley.

I've got 2 questions as well. Just to clarify on the retention or the attrition rate, which you said is quite low in this business. How do you calculate that? Do you sort of assume that the people who then ask for a move within the business as a retained employee within the content moderation? Like you said there is that an employee can sort of decide to apply for another job within the organization outside of the content moderation. That's number one. And the second question I got is, like, obviously, a lot of focus has been around the content moderation, but where are the risks in the overall business of spilling this like across the business? And are you planning to take like a company-wide review of the employee practices really beyond just the content moderation to once and for all satisfy the market and assure the investors.

Could you please only just repeat the second question?

Yes. So the second question is, look, a lot of the focus over the last week or so, rightly so has been around the content moderation and the employees. But there is also a question around the wider sort of employee network within the organization and the working conditions around those. So is there like an audit you plan to do internally, just to look at the entire HR operation across the organization, not just content moderation and sort of address any concerns that people may have.

I think it's a question that was answered on the call yesterday, audits are performed and are going to be performed across the globe for Teleperformance.

Okay. That's not just content moderation, that's just across the business? Just wanted to clarify that.

Exactly, exactly, yes.

Okay. Clear.

And the first question because I don't want to let it an answer because I know that there was 1 more question that I didn't answer.

Yes. The first question I had was on the attrition rate, how you're actually calculating it. You said that there are a few people who can apply for the internal transfer within the organization. Then do you count them as a retained employee when you're looking at the attrition rate?

If it's within the same T&S client, we don't count them as an attrition because we are talking those people are going to be still servicing the same client. If they move out either outside of the company or to another LOB, another client, which is not T&S, then it's counted as attrition. And that is how we are reporting it to our clients. If I am making any mistake on this statement, Bhupe, if you can correct me.

My understanding is that's the way we calculate Vaggelis. So on these matters on the ground floor, you are kind of probably better equipped than me. But Anvesh, to your second question, I want to bring in even Veronique on that because that seems to be a bit of a fairly broad brushed allegation whereas if you look at every international certification, every international benchmark, TP seems to be on the top end if not the best, if the #2. So kind of now saying that there is a question around work ethics and all those things broadly for TP starting with initially, it was content moderation, it's the first time I'm hearing about other things. So I just want to bring in Veronique as to what both as an employee and as a Board member, what she has seen of TP as an employer.

Yes. Thank you, Bhupe. So regarding this, in fact, we monitor the employee satisfaction and the well-being of the employees as a whole is constantly monitor, if I may say that. And we have a lot of initiatives in during this well being. So I visit a lot of sites, and we can see it in day-to-day work. Do you need additional information?

No, no. I just wanted to get your per -- because somehow the question was that, look, there seems to be kind of TP is some kind of a sweat shop. That's the kind of allegation that seemed to be made. That 1 thing that they're saying and then frankly, all international certifications are used as throw them in the bin and get kind of just believe 1 or 2 anecdotal tweets. That's not how a big business can be run. Anyway, let's move to the next question, please.

We will take the next question from Ravi Hemerson from Kepler Cheuvreux.

I'm interested in the comment that Daniel made last night on the call in terms of the recognition of unions globally for Teleperformance. He said that you've recognized unions in 19 countries across your portfolio, which covers 40% of the workforce. Now that sounds like a great number. But can you go into some detail as to where unionization is higher and lower and the reasons behind that and whether these are a cultural or commercial or whatever?

Thank you for the question. Obviously, I don't have the full answer to pinpoint in the globe where are unions and where are not. Also, of course, I don't want to assume there is anything cultural in employees working experience, there's nothing cultural about the interaction he or she might have with the employer in any case. But I can give you my experience coming from the European Works Council, where in Europe, majority of the countries have been -- are unionized. And Teleperformance has given us the opportunity to form a works council actually, and that's actually where I'm coming from in to the Board of Directors as well.

Okay. It would be interesting to get a little bit more transparency on that. I think it might be informative. I've got 1 further question, if you don't mind. Just on content moderators. Is it the company's plan to adopt a charter on the duty of care for content moderators given the nature of the work.

Can you elaborate a charter on the duty affair?

So basically something maybe you can make publicly available, which shows your duty of care as a responsible employer to those people who are involved in potentially psychologically-challenging circumstances in their work.

Vaggelis, I think he's talking about the whole TP policy framework of all the wellness programs and other documents if we can make it public. We can share some of these things. Remember, this is also -- we are in a competitive situation with other suppliers, and we don't want to -- everyone to copy everything. So, -- but Vaggelis, you can touch upon some of the things. But yes, it is documented. And as Vaggelis pointed out, this is also audited both internally and by the client. And they also get external regulators.

Publicly available. That's the question really.

The only publicly available information TP could make before someone signs an NDA. I guess it's already mentioned on the job offers that we are posting online for the candidates to see, read and apply for a job.

we will take the next question from line Ben Wild from Deutsche Bank.

I just wanted to kind of come back to some of the points that have been made earlier around the certifications that Teleperformance and management have been very keen to share with us over the last few days and how they seem to, I guess, contradict in some ways with the high employee churn at Teleperformance and indeed elsewhere in the industry. And I just wanted to get a sense from Vaggelis. How -- can you explain the seemingly contradictory indicators? And in your own experience, what are some of the key challenges with respect to employee retention at Teleperformance?

Can you please clarify the contradiction of the certifications? And you mentioned in regards to the employee retention?

Vaggelis, if I can rephrase to summarize it, the question is that, on one hand, you have the certifications. On other hand, you are talking about higher attrition, 7%, 8% or annualized kind of 80% of those type of levels. So what's the contradiction? So I think you may like to talk about what a normal contact center attrition is because I think they are probably comparing versus the banking industry or something else.

All right. All right. I just want to point out something really important, Teleperformance offers entry-level jobs. So people have -- do have the opportunity to either grow within TP and that could be -- I could be an example and a lot of colleagues of mine across the globe. And they also can join Teleperformance to work for a couple of months, for a couple of years. And then afterwards, they can continue their studies. That is studies, it's part of our driver in regards to the attrition numbers that we see for lower -- for younger ages. But compared to the competition, in Teleperformance, I wouldn't assume that we have higher numbers. It could be in specific parts of the world where the employees might have better opportunities. Some employees, some workers might have better opportunities for a better compensation, let's say. But in other countries, Teleperformance definitely has better offerings. I hope I understood and I answered the question.

I just had a second question as well, specifically on content moderation, if that's okay. Clearly, content moderation is a high-growth business line, and it's relatively new in its nature. It's been really helpful to understand some of what the on-the-ground experience is like, but something else I just wanted to get an idea of is a rough idea of how quickly practices in this business line are changing and evolving as some of the risks become clearer and more loudly articulated. Any kind of insight there would be much appreciated as well.

The practices in content moderation do belong under the framework of what is the scope of each workflow. Excuse me for taking the time to think in this one because I'm trying to also not disclose some internal information from our clients, at least the one that I'm working for. Let me explain what the workflow is. A workflow is actually a project, could be short term or even long term, set by the client that might have a specific lifespan. For example, our client might just need to review a couple of million of content. And this workflow might end when this point is reached. In other cases, some workflows might continue to evolve based on real-time things that are happening across the planet. And this is where we come and we put into the discussion the market-specific nuances that might exist. Some people might think that AI is going to take over our jobs that was initially back on 2018, my thought when I joined this project. But the world is dynamic. Product services are changing thus content moderation will always need human reviewers to adapt it based on -- I don't know if that's an acceptable response on the guidelines that we have to serve.

We will take the next question...

Sorry, I just wanted to add 1 thing on attrition because it's -- the broader attrition, I'll only request everyone who's on the call just to do a bit more research on the attrition levels in the BPO outsourcing industry, contact center industry. And you'll get a sense of the numbers that you'll have. And obviously, we report the aggregate, but then you do it kind of at a country level. These are the kind of numbers. If you look at last year, the average contact center for the -- in the U.S. actually was in the north of 120%, 130% annualized attrition. So there's a lot of public data that's available. Please do not try to make a judgment just basis kind of because we published our number candidly, someone else does not do it. Just do a bit of more research. That's all I would say. Nothing else. Sorry, next question, please?

We will take the next question from line Joe Del Gaudio from Lazard.

Just a question along the same line. So what's the typical profile of the employee that works in content moderation versus the typical call center? And I think you guys mentioned that in Colombia, the turnover in content moderation is off than in contact centers. So it skills us to -- if you can share more details as to why that is the case, to what extent it's a different employee profile doing that job.

I can -- thank you very much for this question. It's a really difficult question to answer because the perception of the world about what is content moderation is all around the egregious, the offensive, the gruesome content. That is a small part, a very small part of the job of the content moderator. Largely, and that's a really complex question to answer in regards to what is the profile because for a specific workflow, we might require different skills. There are content moderators for example, that have to have the skill of a linguist because they have to transcribe audio that we hear. I just want to shed this light across content moderation is not about viewing every single day people getting abused. We don't see murders. We don't see killings. That is an extremely, extremely low percentage on specific clients for specific workflows. So the profile is based on the skills of the workflow that are required to get through effectively and efficiently. That's why I'm saying it's a complex answer for me to give it.

But in terms of the demographics, I think you guys earlier were mentioning out contact centers is an entry-level job for people, for students that do it for a few months. Is that also the demographics of the people that do content moderation?

Yes, but they're staying longer to us. They stay longer to us because content moderation in content moderation, the employees receive more benefits as in the wellness time that we have already mentioned, the extra breaks, engagement activities and also additional benefits. I failed to mention that before, the employees working in T&S accounts are getting private health insurance, daily snacks, night shift transports if they are working on a night shift on premises. And that's because the company and the clients have on the top of their mind, they are aware and we are aware for the well-being and the safety of the employees. I assume we have reached this point. And I would say thankfully for Teleperformance joining late this business as content moderation has not just started on 2018 when I joined, but it was -- it could be close to a decade now. And other vendors, I could say, have experienced through trial and error, all those things, and we all have read the articles that was written in the past for other companies. All the T&S clients have learned from those mistakes and they're applying them within the statement of works. We think the contracts that they are signing off with their vendors. In that case, a vendor is Teleperformance for a T&S client.

In a previous conversation, I think I heard that the egregious content is a very small percentage of the content that is moderated. But I think I heard also that is in specific locations. Is that the case that the egregious content flows into specific offices for content moderation? Or it goes to whoever happens to have to review it in the different regional offices?

Definitely, it's not a random queue that assigns jobs throughout the world. Definitely, we're talking about specific workflows that could be operating globally for different markets. So for example, if in Greece, we are reviewing such content and the same client has its business in 2 other sites across the globe for Teleperformance for supporting different languages, then that would be the case. Those 3 locations would be reviewing this specific content. I just want to highlight something and shed again the light in regards to what might be considered an egregious content. And that would also reduce the amount of content that we can consider egregious by our client, again, talking about the client that I have the experience. Egregious content is not only the graphic content that someone might come across, but also the content in text, so hate speech, for example, someone cursing another person. That falls under that category as well. I just wanted to put a note on this one. Hope I answered the question.

We will take the next question from line Mary Wallis from Sycamore.

I would have 2 questions. First, we understand that there are 25 psychologists available for content moderation workers in Colombia. Are these 25 psychologists entirely dedicated to employees who are working for content moderation? And I would have the same question in other locations, for instance, in Portugal and Greece, how many people are dedicated to content moderation and how many psychologists are there in these locations. And my second question is does Teleperformance encourage moderators and especially egregious content moderators to use the wellness time you mentioned. And what percentage of this employee actually received its consultations with psychologists? And how does Teleperformance ensure the metal well being of moderators that were fully remotely.

Thank you very much for the questions. For the number of the counselors in Bogota that you mentioned are 25. I don't have this information. I can definitely get it. But I want to reassure that -- there is a specific ratio per councilor and employees that we have, that we are still at Teleperformance need to have certified counselors or psychologists. This is the same across all T&S accounts. Usually, our clients also if the headcount of the site is below a specific number, top of my mind, could say 400. we need to have a minimum of 4 counselors. And then based on the ratio that could be 1 per 100 employees could be 1 per 150 employees. Again, I want to remind you that I am not working for the client in question, and I don't have visibility on the contract. But Teleperformance across the globe and its operations is being audited for that ratio internally and externally. By externally, meaning by a third-party company hired by our clients. And as you understand, an audit, if we fail to adhere to those ratios, which the ratios are not only for the counselors, but could be also for the management team, how many supervisors we can have. Obviously, that is a breach of the contract and Teleperformance wouldn't want to have such a case with the employees. If that answers your question, I would love if you could repeat the second one, I couldn't -- I didn't have the time to note it.

Sure. The second one was how does Teleperformance encourage moderators to use the wellness time? Is the company able to track the percentage of employees that actually received the consultations with the psychologist? And especially for moderators, that are not on-premise and that to work remotely.

Yes, Teleperformance is making available through all the available communication channels, the availability of that service and the communication channel could be e-mail or internal CMS platform. If we're talking about employees working physically, then we're talking about banners and posters. Having the contact details of our psychologists, their e-mails, their phone numbers, Whatsapp numbers in order to come in contact with them and also through our scheduling, I would say, application. That in regards to the usage of the one-to-one counseling support. And how do we track those? We track them through the client tool because we're talking about activity goals that based on the contractual agreement, as I said earlier, we need to report those numbers on a weekly and monthly basis. And as you understand, our client has those numbers of the wellness time usage in their own database. So if we deviate, it means it's not good news for us. And in regards -- apologize, in regards to the remote working, we have enabled our counselors globally to be able and provide assistance to our employees remotely. That means they are having a laptop and the remote tool application, whether this is a client tool or is it via Zoom or Teams, I apologize, I'm just giving remote connection, let's say, applications. I'm not aware which site which uses. Of course, they are receiving the counselors details, psychologist details in their e-mail. In multiple cases, they are receiving on a weekly basis, reminders about the availability of the counselors as well. I hope I answered the question and also the second part of the remote workers.

Yes, sir. Maybe just 1 precision. I wonder whether the moderators that especially work on egregious content are more encouraged to see psychologists than the others? Maybe if you just follow global IP is something you're not able to track? Yes.

No, all employees are encouraged to utilize the service. Regardless of whether someone reviews egregious content or not. These services -- a free service for the employees, and we always encourage them to utilize it. To receive the necessary support. Remember, content moderators work. It's not only about the egregious content but it can also be a work that's repetitive, right? I might be reviewing the same content again and again, it could not -- it doesn't necessarily mean that it's offensive, it's gruesome, but I might get bored within a couple of months of work. So to answer your question, we are equally promoting the usage of the counseling support.

I think we are out of time now. Is there any other question? Is there 1 final question?

There's no further questions at this time. So I'll hand it back over to Mr. Bhupender to do the -- to conclude today's conference. Thank you.

Good. Yes. Thank you. Thank you, Caroline. And thank you, everyone. I hope you had a very -- it was a very open discussion and I like the kind of the frank answer that largely Vaggelis provided. And sorry, Veronique, next time around, we'll ask everyone to ask you questions. I just want to add 1 thing. I'm in one of our sites in the U.S. today. It is one of the content moderation sites. It's not for that client, for some other client because we just wanted to get -- increasingly get more and more feel of it. And despite all the noise that is happening, if you were to ask our employees here, and I can say this first hand experience, if you ask our employees here, what do they feel about it? Do they think that this is not a work that you would like to do. And the unanimous answer is we love this work, and TP is taking good care of us. Again, I just want to leave it. You will probably believe this only when you see it, but this is what I'm hearing here. Thank you.