Tetragon Financial Group Limited (TFG) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Good afternoon. Thank you for joining Tetragon's 2023 Annual Report Investor Call. [Operator Instructions] The call will be accompanied by a live presentation, which can be viewed online by registering at the link provided in the company's conference call press release. This press release can be found on the homepage of the company's website, www.tetragoninv.com. [Operator Instructions] As a reminder, this call is being recorded. I will now turn you over to Paddy Dear to commence the presentation.

Thank you. As one of the principals and founders of the Investment Manager of Tetragon Financial Group Limited, I'd like to welcome you to our investor call, which will focus on the company's 2023 annual results. Paul Gannon, our CFO, will review the company's financial performance for the period. Steve Prince and I will talk through some of the detail of the portfolio and performance, and Steve will spend some time discussing the outlook. As usual, we'll conclude with questions, those taken electronically via our web-based system at the end of the presentation as well as those received since the last update. The PDF of the slides are now available to download on our website, and if you're on the webcast, directly from the webcast portal. Before I go into the presentation, some reminders. First, Tetragon's shares are subject to restrictions on ownership by U.S. persons and are not intended for European retail investors. These are described in some detail on our website. Tetragon anticipates that its typical investors will be institutional and professional investors who wish to invest for the long term and have experience in investing in financial markets and collective investment undertakings, who are capable themselves of evaluating the merits and risks of Tetragon shares, and who have sufficient resources both to invest in potentially illiquid securities and to be able to bear any losses that may result from the investment, which may equal the whole amount invested. I would like to remind everyone that the following may contain forward-looking comments, including statements regarding the intentions, beliefs or current expectations concerning performance and financial conditions on the products and markets in which Tetragon invests. Our performance may change materially as a result of various possible events or factors. So with that, let me pass over to Paul.

Thank you, Paddy. Tetragon continues to focus on 3 key metrics when assessing how value is being created for and delivered to Tetragon shareholders. Firstly, how value is being created via NAV per share total return. Secondly, how investment returns are contributing to value creation measured as a return on equity or ROE, Thirdly, how value is being returned to shareholders through distributions in the form of dividends and buybacks. The fully diluted NAV per share was $31.13 at 31st of December '23, with a NAV per share total return of 6.4% for the calendar year. Since its IPO in 2007, Tetragon has achieved an annualized NAV per share total return of 10.5%. For monitoring investment returns, we use an ROE calculation, which was positive 5.5% for 2023, and that's net of all fees and expenses. The average ROE that's been achieved since IPO is now a positive 11.3%, which is within the target range of 10% to 15% per annum. Moving on to the final key metric. Tetragon declared a dividend of $0.11 for the fourth quarter, which represents a dividend of $0.44 for the full year. Based on the year-end share price of $9.88, the last 4 quarters' dividend represents a yield of approximately 4.5%. In addition to this, Tetragon also returned approximately $60 million to shareholders during 2023 through 2 separate tender offers, and we'll reference this again when we go through the next slide, which is the NAV bridge. So now on to the NAV bridge, which breaks down into its component parts, the change in Tetragon's fully diluted NAV per share from $29.69 at the end of 2022 to $31.13 per share at the end of 2023. So the key component parts are as follows: investment income increased NAV per share by $2.56 per share. Operating expenses, including management and incentive fees reduced NAV per share by $0.69, with a further $0.27 per share reduction due to interest expense incurred on the revolving credit facility. On the capital side, gross dividends reduced NAV per share by $0.44. There was a net dilution of $0.95 per share, which is labeled as other share dilution in the bridge. This bucket primarily reflects the impact of dilution from stock dividends plus the additional recognition of equity-based compensation shares. However, this was offset by share repurchases, which were accretive to NAV per share by $1.23. So overall, a net accretion here of approximately $0.28 per share. Tetragon repurchased $60 million of its nonvoting shares during 2023 with tender offers completing in April and December. Inception to date, the company has now returned approximately $1.7 billion to investors through dividends and share repurchases. And Tetragon also announced yesterday its intention to repurchase approximately $25 million worth of shares, which, based on Tetragon's current NAV and share price will be accretive to NAV per share. I will now hand back over to Paddy.

Thanks, Paul. As on previous calls, before we delve into the details of our 2023 performance, I just want to put the company's performance in the context of the long run. Tetragon began trading in 2005 and became a public company in April 2007. So the fund has 19 years of trading history. And this chart shows the NAV per share total return, that's the thick green line at the top; the share price total return, which is a dash green line. The chart also includes equity indices, the MSCI ACWI and the FTSE All-Share. And lastly, includes the Tetragon hurdle rate of SOFR plus 2.75%. As you can see in the graph, over that time, Tetragon has been trading as a publicly listed company, the NAV per share total return of 429%. And as Warren Buffett has said, compounding is the [ eighth ] wonder of the world. And we believe that our somewhat idiosyncratic structure of a listed fund owning alternative assets and a diversified alternative asset management platform has helped us create an alpha-driven ecosystem of ideas and expertise and insights and connections that help us do this. In 2023, as Paul showed, we've made a small positive return, but this was below our long-term target and also below market equity indices. The main reason for this, we believe, is that, there's been a very narrow universe of growth in equity stocks that has driven this year's performance in most indices -- or sorry, this year being last year's performance. The Magnificent 7 in the U.S. and now obviously, the granola that are being talked about in Europe. And that obviously is great for equity owners, but it's not really our area of focus. We pursue diversification and expect our broader themes to play out over time. So as I said at the first half review, that's not meant to be an excuse, it's just merely an observation. Moving to the next slide and continuing the theme of looking at the longer term. Here are some more -- or here are some more performance metrics. The return on equity or investment return target is 10% to 15% of the cycle, over the cycles. And as Paul mentioned, the average return since IPO is 11.3%. Just to point out one other number on this slide, and that is the top right-hand corner, over 39% of the public shares are owned by principals of the Investment Manager and employees of TFG Asset Management. We believe this is an important metric. It demonstrates a strong belief in what we do, as well as a strong alignment of interest between the manager, TFG Asset Management employees and Tetragon shareholders. So with that, let's now move on to the next slide, and we talk here about the composition of Tetragon's assets. And this looks at the breakdown there for the $2.8 billion of NAV. There are 2 colored disks here may show the percentage breakdown by asset classes and strategies at year-end '22 on the left and then comparison with the year-end 2023 on the right. So a couple of things to point out. Firstly, private equity and venture capital are now 16% of the portfolio, and that's up from 13% at the end of the previous year, and that is driven by performance and 1 or 2 new investments. Secondly, I would highlight bank loans. Our exposure here is down from 10% at the end of '22 to 8% at the end of 2023. So what happened in '23 is existing investments had a strong year. They made good cash distributions, but we made very few new CLO investments and hence, the decline in [ allocation ]. Other equities and credit are up 7% from 6%. This was driven by positive performance. And then you can see that the other asset classes are broadly down in percentage terms pro rata with those that I've just mentioned. So moving on to the next slide. Here, we can start to discuss the year's performance in more detail by the asset classes. The NAV bridge that Paul showed was a high-level overview of the NAV per share. And what this table does is show a breakdown of the composition of Tetragon's NAV at the end of '23 and again, uses that versus the end of 2022, and it does it by asset class, and it also showed the fact of contributing for those changes in NAV. So this table shows investment performance and capital flows, so then ties back to the change in NAV. As you can see from the bottom row of the table, the aggregate investment performance, and this is labeled gains and losses, with a gross profit for the period of $241 million. Specifically, TFG Asset Management, which is our private equity holdings and asset management companies had gains of $7 million; event-driven equities, convertibles and other hedge funds gained $8 million; bank loans generated $11 million; real estate had a loss of $6 million; private equity and venture capital had a gain of $91 million; legal assets, a gain of $3 million; and as you can see, other equities and credit, a gain of $124 million, and therefore, being by some way, the best performing segment. So what I'd like to do now is take each of these asset classes, and we'll go build down into more detail on each, but we'll start at the top with TFG Asset Management. And with that, over to Steve.

Thanks, Paddy. Before I review the performance of TFG Asset Management's constituent businesses, I wanted to take a moment to remind listeners of TFG Asset Management strategy and key value proposition. We continue to look to add new strategies and help individuals and teams to create successful asset management businesses by leveraging TFG Asset Management's operating infrastructure and shared strategic direction with Tetragon, who can support asset management businesses through co-investment and working capital. At the same time, we continue to look for creative ways to help our partners grow their existing businesses, which may involve selling partial stakes or whole businesses if we and they believe it may unlock future growth and value. As we discussed in our 2021 annual report, the strong performance of BGO, Equitix and LCM in particular, have enhanced the attractiveness of individual business transactions as an important way of realizing the value inherent in our TFG Asset Management businesses. As such, the strategy for TFG Asset Management over the coming years will continue to include launching new strategies and potentially acquiring businesses, but will also include -- possibly include executing on individual sales transactions that would take advantage of this value enhancement. Although transactions such as these would inevitably have the effect of shrinking TFG Asset Management's portfolio of relatively mature market-leading businesses and thus our aggregate AUM, thereby possibly delaying progress towards a strategic transaction at the TFG Asset Management level, those transactions would enable TFG Asset Management to monetize the benefits of its success in growing successful asset management businesses. Indeed, our view is that one of the key metrics that underscores TFG Asset Management success must be the returns achieved by successful dispositions of its private equity stakes and asset management companies. I'm now going to move on to the performance of our various asset managers during 2023. Our private equity investments in asset management companies, through TFG Asset Management recorded an investment gain of $6.8 million during 2023, driven by investments in Equitix, our core infrastructure asset management and primary project platform. I'm going to share some details on all of our businesses now. Tetragon's investment in Equitix made a gain of $53 million, driven by a combination of a higher valuation as a business continue to deliver against this business plan; b, a reduction in net debt due to positive cash generation; c, dividend income received by Tetragon of about $28 million; and d, foreign exchange gains on the unhedged portion of our investment. Equitix's AUM increased from GBP 10 billion to GBP 10.9 billion. Equitix also started raising capital for Fund VII after closing Fund VI at [ GBP 1.5 billion ] in AUM and also raised some capital into managed accounts during the year. Tetragon's investment in BGO, the new trading name for BentallGreenOak, a real estate-focused principal investing, lending and advisory firm had a small gain of $2 million during the year. During 2023, distributions to Tetragon from BGO totaled approximately $18 million, reflecting a combination of fixed quarterly contractual payments, variable payments and carried interest. The value of Tetragon's investment decreased to $270.5 million during the year. The value of Tetragon's put call option decreased by $6.3 million, in part reflecting an update to BGOs business plan and forecast. This decrease was offset by gains in the fixed quarterly contractual payments due to a reduction in the discount rate applied to these payments and higher variable payments received during the year as compared to the forecasted payments. We thought it was worth reminding everyone about the elements of the BGO transaction. As listeners might recall in 2019 -- July 2019, GreenOak Real Estate merged with Bentall Kennedy, Sun Life Financial, North American real estate and property management firm, to form BentallGreenOak, now, as we said, known as BGO. Since then, TFG Asset Management has continued to own nearly 13% of the combined entity. There were a number of elements to that transaction, including an upfront payment of $42 million upon closing, a series of fixed quarterly payments to receive over the life of the deal, quarterly variable payments linked to BGOs earnings and cash generation; and finally, Sun Life has a call option to acquire the remaining interest in BGO in 2026. There's also a put option in 2027 that entitled TFG Asset Management and the other minority owners of BGO to sell their interest to Sun Life, should the call not be exercised. As a consequence, it's expected that TFG Asset Management will sell its interest in BGO in 2026. While this is continuously factored into our valuation, it will have an impact on Tetragon's cash levels and reported AUM for TFG Asset Management, meaning upon the exit of Tetragon's interest in BGO, we would expect Tetragon's cash levels to increase and TFG Asset Management's reported AUM to decrease. Moving on to LCM. Tetragon's investment in LCM, which manages bank loan assets through CLOs, made a loss of $36 million in 2023 as the valuation reflected the impact of the reduction in LCM's AUM, which decreased 14% during the year. That reflected a combination of LCM not issuing any new deals due to market conditions as well as the amortization of some existing deals. TFG Asset Management's other asset managers produced a collective loss of $12.6 million during 2023, that was due to a combination of reduction in the fair value of some of these managers as well as working capital support provided to the newer businesses. The other managers in this category include Westbourne River Partners, which is the renamed European event-driven equity investing business of Polygon Global Partners, we renamed that following Acasta Partners' successful rebrand in 2022. Westbourne River Partners name was inspired by one of London's historic Rivers. Acasta Partners is a manager of open-ended hedge funds and managed account vehicles employing a multidisciplinary approach. Tetragon Credit Partners, is our structured credit, investing business focused on primary CLO control equity as well as other offerings in the CLO capital structure. Hawke's Point is our asset management business that provides strategic capital to companies in the metal sector. Banyan Square Partners, a private equity firm that's focused on non-control structured and common equity investment opportunities. And finally, Contingency Capital, which is a global asset management business focused on credit-oriented legal assets investments. Now I'm going to turn it over to Paddy, who will review our hedge fund investments.

Thanks, Steve. Tetragon invests in event-driven equities, convertible bonds, credit and some other strategies through hedge funds. And the majority of these are investments that are through funds managed by Westbourne River Partners and Acasta Partners, both of whom are part of TFG Asset Management. You can see here that our investment in Westbourne River European event-driven strategies recorded a gain of $3.4 million in the long bias share class and offset by a loss of $5.3 million in that low net, which is the top one. Tetragon increased its investment during the year by $20 million into the low net strategy. Third line item here, investments in Acasta Partners generated a gain of $12.4 million. Tetragon actually reduced its holdings in Acasta Global Fund by $10 million during the year. And it's worth noting that the fund was nominated for the 12th time since its inception in 2009 for the 2023 with Intelligence EuroHedge Award in the Convertibles and Volatility category, and it's actually won that award 5x over its life. And the last line item here, investments in funds managed by third-party managers lost $2.8 million during the year. We've actually now included the TFG Asset Management Global Equity Fund, which is formerly the Polygon Global Equity Fund, given that it's a small allocation. And Tetragon reduced its holdings by [ $3 million net during the period ]. So on the next slide, I'd like to move on to bank loans. Tetragon predominantly invests in bank loans through CLOs. We take the major positions in equity classes. Tetragon's investments are split as shown here between LCM deals, funds managed by Tetragon Credit Partners and then a small exposure left to non-LCM deals in the U.S. We continue to view CLOs as attractive vehicles for obtaining long-term exposure to the leveraged loan asset class. So as you can see from this table, in aggregate, our bank loan exposure recorded a gain of $11.4 million in 2023. And cash received during the year was approximately $77 million, where we made new investments of approximately $6 million. So performance over the year was generally driven by, I would say, on the positive side, risk free rates increasing, which all other things be equal, increases to cash flow generation in CLO equity. Secondly, higher-yielding reinvestment opportunities within the underlying CLOs as credit spreads widened. And thirdly, a generally benign level of loan losses during the year, albeit coming from a rising from a very low base. On the negative, I'd say there's been a deterioration in some of the older loans and thus worsening credit ratings and in addition, some lower recoveries on the defaults that we have seen. At the end of 2023 or as at the end of '23, all the CLOs either held directly or indirectly were still compliant with their junior most O/C tests. And I would note that on Tetragon Credit Partners, [ TCI II and III are fully invested. TCI IV ] is currently investing, and Tetragon has a further [ $6 million committed but undrawn to TCI IV ]. Next slide takes us through our real estate investments, and Tetragon holds most of its investments in real estate through the BGO-managed funds and co-investment vehicles. Majority of these are private equity style funds, and they concentrate on opportunistic investments, targeting middle-market opportunities in the U.S., Europe and Asia. The particular focus on some of the growth sectors, such as logistics, data centers, cold storage et cetera. And these funds collectively [ had an aggregate loss of $1.9 million ] during 2023. The last item to mention here, which is other real estate. This is farmland investment in Paraguay, managed by a specialist third-party manager in South American farmland. And this investment generated a loss of $4.1 million over the year, and that was based on a third-party revaluation in 2023. And with that, I'll hand back to Steve.

Thanks, Paddy. Tetragon's private equity and venture capital investments was the second largest driver of performance during the year, producing gains of $91 million. Investments in this category are split into the following subcategories: First, Tetragon's mining finance investments managed by Hawke's Point, generated a gain of $51 million during 2023. These gains were driven by operational progress at one of its Australian gold projects during the year. Tetragon invested an additional $7 million into Hawke's Point funds in 2023. Second, Banyan Square portfolio companies achieved solid operating results in 2023. However, some of the portfolios positions were hurt by rising interest rates that negatively impacted those companies with higher debt balances. As a result, the net gain across the portfolio was $3.3 million. At year-end, there were 12 positions in the fund, including physicians focused on application software, infrastructure software and cybersecurity. In addition, together with TFG Asset Management, Banyan Square Partners made a strategic investment in woven light, which is a data-driven consulting and software services business, which may add further investment opportunities to the Banyan Square business. In addition, Tetragon as a whole stands to benefit from the addition of woven lights machine learning and AI expertise. Third, are our investments in externally managed private equity funds and co-investment vehicles in Europe and North America, which made gains of $4.5 million during the period. These investments are spread across 36 different positions. Lastly, the direct category produced gains of $32 million during the year related to positive performance in our investment in Ripple Labs. In July 2023, a U.S. judge ruled that Ripple Labs did not violate federal securities law by selling its XRP token on public exchanges. This ruling was subsequently upheld in October 2023 when the court dismissed the SEC's request for an interlocutory appeal. Crypto markets were further buoyed by expectations that the SEC was preparing to approve the first spot Bitcoin ETFs, which contributed to a fourth -- broad fourth quarter rally in tokens and related assets. Subsequent to year-end, as most listeners are probably aware, the SEC did, in fact, approved many spot Bitcoin ETFs. Moving on to legal assets. Tetragon makes investments in legal assets through vehicles managed by Contingency Capital. Tetragon has committed capital of $60 million to Contingency, $32 million of which has been called to date, including $15 million during 2023. A gain of $3.3 million was generated from this investment during the period. The performance of the Contingency Capital fund portfolio continues to be above our underwritten projections and performance targets and remains uncorrelated to the public equity and debt markets. Moving on to the next slide, other equities and credit and cash. Tetragon makes investments directly on its balance sheet, reflecting single strategy ideas. These ideas are either as co-investments alongside our TFG asset managers or at times idiosyncratic investments. Each of these investments tend to be opportunistic and with a catalyst. Often, the sourcing of these investments has been facilitated by the managers on the TFG Asset Management platform and also through third-party managers with whom Tetragon invests. The flexibility to invest in these opportunities is a benefit of Tetragon's structure. In 2023, Tetragon was able to drive significant performance from its public equities portfolio, which is primarily focused on software and biotech investments. These investments rallied strongly in the fourth quarter as sentiment shifted in the markets and generated gains of $124.4 million during the year. Approximately 2/3 of this gain was driven by companies well positioned to benefit from AI infrastructure demand or those companies that will incorporate emerging AI applications into their business models. Biotechnology contributed most of the remaining gains driven by U.K. biotech company, which reported encouraging developments for its potential cancer and autoimmune therapies. The other credit bucket had flat performance and currently comprises one position. Finally, Tetragon's cash at bank balance was $23.1 million at the end of 2023. After adjusting for known accruals and liabilities, both short and long dated, Tetragon's net cash balance was minus $243.5 million. Tetragon has access to a credit facility of $400 million with a maturity date in July 2032. At year-end, $250 million of this facility was drawn and this liability has been incorporated into the net cash balance calculation. Tetragon actively manages its cash levels to cover future commitments and to enable it to capitalize on opportunistic investments and new business opportunities. During 2023, Tetragon used $211.1 million of cash to make investments, $60.3 million to repurchase its shares, $23.3 million to pay dividends. $307.1 million of cash was received as distributions and proceeds from the sale of investments. Future cash commitments are $95.4 million, and those comprise investment commitments across BGO funds, private equity funds, Tetragon Credit Partners and Contingency Capital. Moving to our last slide before we open the call up to questions. I want to go through our future investment expectations. We expect our event-driven equity and convertible exposure to remain stable. We expect to continue to invest in CLOs via various Tetragon Credit Partners vehicles. But at the same time, we expect to receive cash back from some of their initial funds. We have commitments to BGO funds, but as our existing investments continue to distribute capital, we do expect our real estate investments to be relatively stable over the next year. We expect our private equity allocations to keep growing, and there are a few additional [ LPE commitments ] we have yet to fund. Therefore, we expect our Banyan Square allocation to continue to grow. In legal assets, Tetragon will continue funding its commitments to contingency capital vehicles. And in other equities and credit, we expect to continue to invest in these opportunities, but the timing of those investments is less certain. Lastly, we're hopeful that there will be additional allocations that we will be making to new asset classes and managers, but there's nothing to report at this time. I will now hand the call back over to Paddy.

That's great. Thank you very much, Steve. So as on previous calls, I'm going to read out some questions and we'll endeavor to answer them between us. First one, I'm going to [ slightly pricey ], but it says I suggest that you end the dividend reinvestment program immediately and let investors buy into the open market in London or Amsterdam. Secondly, I think you need to aggressively increase the dividend. And thirdly, [ I'd allied ] that with stopping the buybacks as the markets don't -- clearly don't believe the monthly stated net asset value that you so diligently post. So I think there are sort of a couple of points that I want to address here. The first is on the scrip dividend. And we appreciate that there are strong views held on both sides for the scrip dividend. So just to sort of summarize where we're at. I think those who take the scrip dividend, love it and those that don't dislike it. So the reason we provide a scrip dividend is at the request of many shareholders. And the scrip dividend, as I understand it, has certain tax benefit for U.K. taxpayers. So that's why we do it. And obviously, the tax treatment will be different if those shareholders were to receive income and then subsequently have to buy shares back in the market. So that isn't a solution that works for them. We appreciate that it is dilutive, obviously, for those who take cash and tax advantageous for those who take scrip. But yes, we -- so we think -- we understand why it needs to be done or why it's beneficial for shareholders. But we also believe that we can compensate the dilution with share buybacks. So we think ultimately, we're getting the same outcome whilst being tax advantageous to those who benefit from the [ script -- sorry, from the scrip ]. The second is quite a novel approach because I think it's different to what we hear from others, which is saying spend the money on the dividend and reduce the share buybacks, whereas normally, we have recommendations to do the other. I think as a lot of people know, we look at dividends and buybacks in through the same lens in that they are both uses of cash, and they affect shareholders in a different way, but have many similarities. And I think our response to the question is that we would respectively disagree. Whilst we think the dividend needs to be meaningful, and we think with a 4.5% yield, it is, we're very cautious of making it too high. And so there's some particular reasons. The first is that the portfolio itself is not actually a high-yielding portfolio. If we go back to 20 years ago, when we were 100% CLOs, give or take, obviously, there was a lot of cash income in the portfolio. Today, as you've just seen from the presentation, I think the CLO allocation is around about 8%. Now obviously, some of the other areas do generate cash, some of the asset management businesses within TFG Asset Management generate cash. But certainly, across the portfolio, there is a lot less cash generation as a percentage of NAV than they had been historically. Most of the profitability there, therefore, is capital gains and many through illiquid instrument, and it's not income. Thus, it tends to be -- the cash generation tends to be lumpy. And we think we're cautious, therefore, that we don't -- the dividend to be too high, given that the dividend needs a consistent income stream to back it. The second argument is one that we think buybacks benefit all shareholders. And with the current discount to NAV that we strongly believe in, notwithstanding what the market may believe. And we think that is a greater benefit, therefore, to all shareholders. It's obviously flexible and that we can do it when we have cash available. And lastly, it does provide liquidity and this is another important issue for investors, particularly when [ there are ] periods of low liquidity within the market. So for those reasons, we do it in the current environment, have a preponderance to prefer buybacks to increasing the dividend. The next question I've got here is on [ share issuance ]. And let me read the question. Does Tetragon issue any new equity for ESOPs or any other purpose at this point? And if so, given the huge discount to NAV, please can you buy the shares in the market rather than issuing them new in order to avoid dilution to your very long-term suffering shareholders. And I think -- I'm guessing, but I'm pretty sure I'm right that ESOP in this instance refers to equity share ownership programs. And they obviously have several names within companies, but the LTIP or long-term investment program is the equivalent of beneath that. And I'm going to hand over to Paul to answer that question.

Yes. So Tetragon has historically issued LTIP awards with vesting periods over multiple years sometimes up to 8 years. From an accounting perspective, the dilution is taken each year on a straight-line basis, and we do have more details sort of covering how this works in the annual report. But generally, we agree with the questioner. And in the past, Tetragon has sought to buy back shares in excess of those issued to ensure that there is no net dilution to shareholders as a result of these awards.

And another question here, what investor outreach is the company doing? And just to give a sort of backdrop to that, as a reminder, we have 2 brokers here in the U.K. JPMorgan and Jefferies. And they both write research on the company. We also engage Edison, who write on the company. And all of those are involved, obviously, with shareholders. They get us in front of shareholders. We probably do half a dozen days per year where we're actually on trips, either in -- predominantly in U.K., Europe. We have done some in the U.S. in the past. And on top of that, I would add sort of reverse inquiries. We're always open to talk to investors or potential investors who want to come and talk to us either through the IR team or to any of the investment team specifically. So that's sort of a bit of the backdrop. Another one here, would you consider monetizing or selling a stake in a PE business, specifically the infrastructure business by way of M&A or partial listing? I think the easiest way to answer that question is by, say, show don't tell. And I think if you look at our investment in GreenOak over the time horizon, I think is the best example of how we have behaved and are likely to pay in the future. And that is to say that we built the business with our partners there in 2010. And then as Steve alluded to in his piece earlier, we struck a deal -- the company struck a deal with Sun Life of Canada to buy a majority of the business with a then 7-year earnout or option to buy a further amount of the business, which will come about in 2026. So I think the answer to the question is we're always looking to optimize, to maximize the increased value in our asset management businesses as we are indeed in all our investments and looking for ways to create value. So yes, that's how we think of it. That is it for questions. So much appreciate you all joining the call, and I wish you a very good rest of the day. Thank you.

So this now concludes our presentation. Thank you all for attending. You may now disconnect.