The Indian Hotels Company Limited (500850) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Good afternoon, everyone. Okay. So I think the movie that you all saw is a good depiction of the strength of both the company and its individual brands. I think one thing which we did intuitively or knowingly or in a planned way is that we kept working on our brandscape. We kept working on our core values. We tried to stand up to every challenge to realize that when the pandemic started getting over, just before the third wave came and even after the third wave, we looked stronger than ever before. And this, I think, slide is a good testimony to the RevPAR development after the first wave we all went to almost 0 level together, then after the second wave -- and after the first way, -- after the second wave and after the third wave, we were able to outperform in terms of recovery coming out. And that really has to have a direct correlation with the brand or all the brands that we have in our system. As the movie also showed, we have 100 hotels signed in the last 5 years. Of this 100 -- another interesting thing is 40 of them are Ginger. That's the focus we created and we made a change and a shift because we do believe after Taj, Ginger has a huge potential to scale up, at least on the Indian subcontinent as has happened in any other Western country of the world. Then we have around 25 in Taj. We'll obviously continue with the strengthening of our backbone, which was the Taj, remains the Taj and for foreseeable future will be the Taj. Very important is our portfolio mix. We have always in the last 5 years since we announced Aspiration 2022, endeavored to have the right balance in the management contract, which means the fee-based business versus the owned and leased business. As for HVS -- and also as for the facts that we have, IHCL had the strongest signings both in number of hotels and number of rooms in the last 2 years, and it's a trend that I do not expect to change this year either. In fact, some of you would remember, we said we'll open a hotel a month, and actually, we ended up opening 13 hotels last year. Our guidance for this year is around 18 hotels. It could be 16, it could be 20. it all depends on some of the factors, which we are confronted with in this dynamic market and also the volatility that we are confronted with. Very important, the pipeline by brand -- the pipeline by brand in terms of number of hotels is again, with Ginger higher, if we did it by number of rooms, it would not be the same and also by contract type. So if you really look at it, majority, almost 3/4 of our pipeline is on a fee-based business. Now comes on this clip, the most important thing is of the owned and leased 92% is Ginger. And I've explained that in previous market days in investor calls that the reason for that is that asset-light growth model for Ginger does not work. The revenue level in this segment is much lower and 7% or 8% of fees would require a very large scale. So if Ginger is positioned or targeted to do depending on the market, depending on the city, depending on the micro-location, anything between 35% to 65% margin, then we are better off paying 20% to 30% revenue share and keeping the remaining 20% to 30% instead of going for an asset-light growth. So that's why we see that this number looks a bit distorted, but for me, an operating lease for Ginger is as good as a hybrid between asset-light and asset-heavy can get. Very important amongst the new signings that we have had, we've covered 25-plus new destinations in India. This is extremely important in light of the campaigns that are going to take place that is also desired by the government and various bodies about Dekho Apna Desh. And I think we provide the right platform of Dekho Apna Desh than anyone else because we're in 100-plus locations. And also, this has been made possible because of the 25 new destinations. So we cover India today in 100-plus locations when we look at hotels only. Should we add our home-stay business to it, we would get close to anywhere between 115 to 120 locations going forward with almost a portfolio of 225-plus hotels in India. So of the number of 215-plus hotels in India, so that 235 plus that we have in the total portfolio, 20 are outside of India, of which 2 are under development. The rest is under operation. And within India, we have 215 plus, which makes us a very, very strong player, again, on our home front. This chart has been taken from Harward, showing the strength of our brand in terms of number of hotels in the pipeline, and that makes us definitely a leading player on our own home front. With that, we have also added -- it's not just hotels, we added what we call reimagining our strong brands, which we already had and also creating the new brands. When I talk about reimagining new brands, internally, we say Ginger is only a 3.5 to 4-year old brand. The name is 20 years old. So we kept the name because the name was good, and we stimulated the progress by changing the design, the look and feel, the positioning and the value proposition, and that is what has translated into accelerated growth for this brand. Same thing with TajSATS. TajSATS is -- and I have a Board member of TajSATS sitting in this room. We have tried to also focus on non-aviation business in TajSATS. We have a very good partner with Sats from Singapore, and they have great systems. And this has helped us gain 50% plus market share of all meals that are served in India. Unfortunately, for our industry and airlines and tourism, we were confronted with a lockdown, but this journey with TajSATS just before lockdown and as we are coming out of it is looking very, very promising. And so we changed the logos, we called it culinary art in motion and started adding new businesses. Same thing on reimagination of Chambers as the private membership club. Anybody who was seeing the Chambers in Delhi, the reimagine Chambers is possibly the best private membership club in South Asia. We have added Chambers in London. We have always communicated that we will add Chambers in Bangalore. -- followed by New York. And those plans are very much there. Nothing has been taken off. When we go to new businesses, we launched our home delivery business with Qmin. We launched Ama as homestay business to become that largest hospitality ecosystem, we created these brands and utilized the crisis and were able to draw upon our existing kitchens, our existing ships, our existing infrastructure to manage these businesses. The same is the story on homestay. We don't go and make a home-stay in the middle of somewhere. We are doing home stays, which is close and in a driving distance to an existing hotel so that the hotel infrastructure, the hotel general manager with the help of a caretaker of the Bangalow can take care of that business. And this is what is creating in these very small businesses because every beginning is small, 50%, 60%, 70% flow-through to EBITDA. And that is important because those of you who have read our press release might be wondering where this 800 basis point further increase is going to come from when historically, the company on an average, has traded at around 15% to 16% EBITDA margin. 7Rivers, these are some of the brands why they are there on this presentation is these are brands, not owned by us. I'll show you a couple of them more. 7 Rivers is a brand of AB InBev, that's Anheuser-Busch. The ones who do Stella and Budweiser and Leffe. As a microbrewery, we opened it in the middle of the pandemic and Taj MG Road, and it was and is a runaway success, and I'll show you that we are opening more and want to scale up this business. This is how it would look like in Goa. That's the second 7 Rivers with the beer garden like you have in the Germanic areas of Europe, followed by an Indian concept, 4 of these restaurants under the same name, we have not finalized on the name as I present today, hopefully, within the next week, 10 days, we would have finalized the name and how it is going to look like on paper will be launched with the first one in Taj Palace, followed by Lands End, Taj Mahal Palace, Mumbai and Taj Western in Bangalore. The only thing I can say today is going to be food, which comes from the North-western part of the Grand Trunk route. That's what the food would be like. And then again, another example of Paper Moon. Paper Moon is a very small mid-plus family restaurant business, which exists for almost 50 years now, started in Milano, it is in a few hotels in the Middle East, also in Southeast Asia. We have taken on the rights to Paper Moon for India. The first one is being launched in Fort Aguada. And all these launches that I'm talking about, they are between 90 to 120 days from now. This is not something I'm showing, which will happen in 2 years, 3 years, 4 years, but within the next 90 to 120 days, all of these brands would have been launched. And just a glimpse on how the Italian dining in a brasserie-style would look like in a beautiful setting of Taj Fort Aguada. Soulinaire our event management concept. This is not a brand that you will hear so much about. It's really a service proposition really like when we have events like this today, what you see in the background, including the mics and the system of sound, it's provided by a third party. What you see in terms of flowers is also coming mostly from outside. When the wedding cards are printed, they are not printed in the hotel. There is a separate company providing that kind of service. Similarly, we have launched this one-stop proposition which will help people get food from any of the 400 Taj branded restaurants or other branded restaurants from our own company across India. It will be the one-stop-shop to do the events, mostly in properties that we either own, control or manage. And the very first contract that this is going to work upon is us having secured and the formal contracts to be signed of the, let's say, as an example, the Sushma Swaraj Bhavan near Taj Palace in Delhi for all the major events. So it would not be the hotel going out, it will be the specific dedicated team. So that will become efficient. That's very important for all of those who analyze companies, who analyze hotel businesses to know that you don't always have to build in a hotel, a very large kitchen. What we have is what we have. We don't have to build that entire infrastructure -- you could have a team outside of the hotel, which can draw upon the resources of the hotel or elsewhere or from other hotels from other cities and help do such events. That makes you building efficient, that makes you CapEx efficient, and that helps in generating premium return on investment. Industry-leading value creation. I think since 1st of Jan, as per our team, till 30th of April, we provided a 21% return. This includes the rights issue and the dividend. And with that, I think is the right time to change on the future of the Indian hospitality industry as a lot is being talked about in the papers and other places in the last few months. A lot of people tell me [Foreign Language] or you have to pay a lot of money. So -- but I always tell a year at 365 and 52 weeks. So a few months are a good thing to have, but it's not yet [Foreign Language], right? So there is a lot of months left in the year. We hope it goes on, especially coming from where we are coming, I think it would be nice. And where we are coming from is a situation of resilience, is a matter that we all were confronted with, which led us to innovation and which led us to community service. Resilience because what do you do when your revenues almost hit 0, how do you stay resilient? How do you stay above water? How do you keep the business going and have a growing concern? How do you help and boost the recovery when your international borders are shut. Most of the recovery that we have seen almost 90-plus percent, I would even say 95% is all domestic-led. So we are still missing that internationally, even if the international traffic opened towards end of March is still very little time. People are still reluctant to travel. So I think some of the movement we are seeing, but the normal level is yet to come. When it comes to innovation, yes, how can we use all the learnings of the last 2 years because some of those are here to stay. How can we capitalize on consumer trends that are happening. For example, my favorite example has always been in the last several months, driving to a destination. How many are first were driving without a driver? How many of us went in families with elderly parents, in-laws together and venturing out for a drive for 5, 6 hours. This is a new consumer trend, which the industry has tried to capitalize on. And at the same time, without having revenue without having profits, this is more like an industry slide. I feel very proud that the entire industry and whatever means each one of them had indulged in community service, help provide meals to the migrant workers, to the frontline workers, hosted the bed nights, they could and that made the pandemic not easy but it did help to say that this industry contributed significantly during the pandemic. Moving on, the trends which are shaping. I would just not go through each of them, but really, there are 6, 7, 8 trends that are the key. Number one, travel was, is, and is here to stay. Anybody who thinks not travel will become less because there was COVID is actually mistaken. It will only become higher. Whatever is missed in 2 years will be recovered very fast and more will come. Travel is a fundamental human need, and that is not going away. So I think the number of people we have in the hall here today is 3x more than last year, July when we did the Capital Market Day. The number of people wearing mask is none because that's the reality of life, right? If everything comes in cycles, goes in cycles and things do change and evolve. Number 2, trend is that focus will be on experiences and well-being in whatever form, whether you do it in the form of yoga, you do it in the form of spas, you do it in form of other leisure travel or just enjoying beach or mountain holidays or hiking, a part of your business travel, which then gets extended into leisure, which we call Bleisure will have to have those components because when so many of our people lost lives, whether they were our guests, associates, et cetera, we realize the importance of having a stronger immunity. But also as one of my colleagues from the travel trade called it on the television [Foreign Language] factor, let's enjoy now. Let's not keep spending or saving money and spend it later kind of thing. The third important trend that is definitely going to stay is the use of tech and digitization. I'm not saying that Microsoft meetings or Zoom is going to replace events like this. Today, we are in a hybrid mode. We have both digital event. But I think that will go back to normal, but digitization is just going to accelerate. And it is going to change our businesses, our business models, including the help of AI, if I may say so. So this is a trend that is definitely going to be there. Very important realization that we have. And if we are at the beginning of it, is trips internationally are getting less. Pre-pandemic, I have my family living in Europe, I would just sometimes go with us for a weekend or 3 days. But the whole challenges around quarantine, around vaccination around traveling from one country to the other was so complicated. If you go, you might as well go for 2 weeks. I never did that. Even while I was previously living abroad, I would come to India for 3 or 4 days and visit my mother and go away, but that has changed because it's just not possible. Now even if it has become possible because the borders have opened up, the cost of the ticket is so prohibitive that nobody is going to travel if you took that as a cost on a per-day basis, it will never work out. So I think trips will get longer -- the number of nights in the hotels will still remain the same, and there will be more people traveling on the domestic front. I think one of the beneficiaries of pandemic in each country is domestic tourism that every country and the people of that country realized, actually, we do have very nice destinations within our own country too. So I think that part is changing. And I think one more important factor, premium and luxury and the ability to charge will be higher. People will pay a premium, people will be willing to pay more if they feel safe, they feel secure. They get an experience that they were not getting before. But a little bit of the same is not going to get you higher prices. So I think in all, there are some more trends too, but these are the travel trends, which I think are very critical. And actually, it's sometimes very strange to see the kind of rates that are being charged when Roland Garros is on when Wimbledon is on. We, in our industry, have not seen these kind of rates ever before, whether it's Paris or it's London, nor it's New York. So for the events when the city is sold out, the rates are almost going through the roof, especially in the luxury segment. Also, the rates will be assisted by increase in occupancy. So one of the trends that we have, and this is a slide also from Horwath HTL, is that when you get into a crisis, the occupancy goes down first and the rates follow. When you're coming out of the crisis, the occupancy levels come back earlier and then the rate follows. Now here, we have a double barrel. What is happening is that the supply is constrained. There was hardly any hotel activity was happening in the 2 years of COVID. So limited supply, unless already under construction hotels is expected to come to market over the next 3, 4, 5 years. Whereas the demand will keep rising because of increase in population because of more people traveling because things getting to more normal. So occupancy level will increase. I think when the occupancy levels increase, the rates will eventually follow. And we are already seeing that trend. This slide is a very interesting one, which part of it, I have already said what we know. We know that travel is here to stay. We know that travel is resilient. We know trusted brands are always preferred. We know that brands achieve higher market penetration. What we think we know is that now more and more people with business and leisure are combining those trips. What we think that we know is slowly global travel is beginning to recover, not at the same level as it was pre-COVID. But it's slowly getting there. It's coming from 0. So when international borders are shut, it is except for the OCI cardholders or PIO cardholders. So I think that, that we all know, we all know that we can also communicate virtually. We think we know that. But what we don't know is very important is the role of geopolitical tensions. We don't know the role inflation is going to play. We don't know if inflation with the increase in interest rates is going to dampen growth. So it's a lot of factors that we don't know and how the evolving business models and technologies are going to play out? How much investment CapEx would be needed. We don't know that. Why we don't know because nobody knows what kind of technology is coming your way. We all talk about 5G. That's fine. We'll talk about AI, that's fine. But how much of the investment would be needed in an industry which does not benefit from a large cycle. The cyclicality in hospitality business is strong, and the cycle is usually short compared to others. So there is certain limitations on how much you can spend. So we don't know these factors. -- keeping all this in mind, we thought what should be the strategy we unveil now. We did Aspiration 2022, we achieved 80% of our goals and 50% of the time then came COVID. We said forget the Aspiration, put it in a folder or in a bag. Now we need a reset. We did the reset. Now we are coming out. So what shall we do now? And that's when we said and came up as a team together with our Board, we had 3 different choices. We said we'll call it, not aspiration, not ambition, not vision, not a route out or a road map, let's call it, Ahvaan 2025, which is a call to action. And it's also an invitation to a higher cost. So it's like a 360-degree value proposition, which fits in very well with our core values, with our ethos and helps us become a much stronger company by 2025 than we are today and where we are today is stronger than where we were in 2017 or '18. Of course, we have one of the -- as you saw all the strongest hotel brand in the world, the strongest brand in the nation across sectors, but how do you become as an organization, a much stronger player, which can rise to the occasion and to a higher cause. That's the kind of guidance we are giving. We said from 17%. We'll go to 25% when we last time announced Aspiration 2022. Now we are saying we'll go from 25% to 33%. That's another 800 basis points increase. it's practically doubling the EBITDA margin that we have achieved historically. And a part of it, if we looked at the last 2 quarters' result, we -- if we average that, we are already at 27.5% with not even having 100% of the revenue. So if we took the Q3 revenue in Q4, we did not achieve 100 of 1920 and we got to an average of 27.5%. So there is no reason why we should not get to 30 with 100%, 110%, 120%, and 130% of the revenue. We will strive to get 35% margin from new businesses. Any new business that we add should get to north of 35% margin. We'll continue to stay focused on 50-50 balanced portfolio within owned and leased hotels is as important, including the hotel, we are in. This hotel is very important. We are not going to ever sell it. This is a crown jewel. We're going to keep it, the Taj Mahal Palace in Colaba or the Taj Mansingh, or the Taj Mahal, we call it in Delhi or the Taj Palace of the Fort Aguada or the Holiday Village. These are just asset class, which is so good that others would love to have it in their portfolio, too. So we keep that, but we'll keep adding our management contract-driven business to get to a balanced portfolio. And from 235 hotels, we'll go to 300 plus. And as far as homestays are concerned, we will be aiming for 500 plus we could have even put a figure of 1,000 because at the end of the day, each homestay has only 4 or 5 rooms, let's say, 3 to 5. But the way we work, the way our core values are, the way licensing works, it's not easy. So we have almost 90 of these homestays signed of which 47 are already in operation, 90 means almost signing a homestay per week. But we could have done more, and we could have also aspired for more, but reality is that we'd rather have quality. We'd rather have everything perfect. It's not an excuse. It's just the way it is. Anybody dealing with licenses would know that it's not the easiest thing, and short cuts is not the way any Tata Group company would work. And obviously, staying net cash positive with 0 debt. On the past, you have seen a movie, I'll not go too much on it except for saying that we really focused very strongly on the Indian subcontinent. We hardly added any hotels or diverted our attention abroad except for renegotiating our contracts, renegotiating our position so that our contracts are more contributing to our businesses. And we did well with that. We did well with Maldives. We did very well with Dubai. We have now 3 hotels open in Dubai with a third one, a very big one, almost like a success from day one. And we increased our footprint and we started scaling up all these new businesses in a strong way. So we were very frugal -- we were very frugal in spending money over the last 2.5 years. But still, we were present all over. I think one thing nobody can take away from us, whether it's digital presence or marketing presence or brand presence or new brand presence, we were present, but we were very frugal in the -- one thing is what one talks the other is the figures don't lie. Our corporate overhead went down from INR 350 crores to INR 220crores, INR 230 crores. So despite adding so many hotels after opening 40 hotels. So we remain very confident that we are going to be in control of these figures. This is not a one-off. We are not a company that laid-off employees in corporate office and suddenly, we are going to rehire because nobody lost a job. On the contrary, everybody even got the variable salaries paid. So I think the change in the business model, the focus on optimization of cost, the reduction in fixed costs and optimization of variable cost is a part of our reset. Coming on to our pit stop. We remain focused on exceeding the top line of '19 and '20, both on a like-for-like and a not like-for-like growth. Not like-for-like because since then we have opened 40 hotels plus we'll be opening some more this year. So let's say, it's a net of 40. But on the like-for-like, we must exceed the performance of '19 and '20 by a double-digit number. And to that, we have to add the management fees, the new brands, the new sources of income and that is the most important thing. We will continue to do asset monetization for noncore assets. These are some of those flats. This is some kind of a laundry land bought 20, 30 years ago. This is kind of a farm house, for growing wine or vegetables because that's how business was done 30, 40 years over. In some of these places, you have to get the papers cleaned up. You have to get all the title deeds in place, and that work has been going on. We have always communicated on that on a quarterly basis, we'll continue to do so. In this quarter, we have had a good development in which we actually sold a laundry land in Gurugram outside of Delhi, which we have had in our position for 25, 30 years. And as of next year, we want to benefit and use the platform that we have created to go for exponential growth. When I say next year, this means only in 10 months from now and create what we have done with our balance sheet, with our new capital structure, pay off the last debt which is due in April '23. We don't want to prepay it now, although we have the money because then we end up paying a big penalty amount, but that's how we are net positive. The strategic initiatives remain the same. It's all about reengineering our margins, reimagining our brand scape and also restructuring the portfolio. As a 120-plus-year-old company, the oldest operating company of Tata Group, you can imagine that there is a lot which we have. The positives are it gives you iconic assets like Colaba and the challenges you have sometimes is a lot of things which were done in 1960 or 70 were great for that time, but need to be changed. So restructuring that is an ongoing exercise, and I don't think it's going to even end in '25. It will be a new goal. So it will go on. Reimagining Brandscape because brand is not something you do today and then you forget and then you open the thing again 5 years later. Otherwise, some other brand will come and displace you. So we have to continue to reimagine and reengineering our margins because the commitment and the guidance we are giving to you of an 800 basis point increase will not come from a Power Point presentation. We will have to do some more work and stay focused on it on a daily basis. And we will do so by obviously, sustaining our revenue growth optimizing our cost and stepping up the profitability as and when the revenue comes back. So I'll give you an example here. If we are back to, let's say, 80%, 85% of pre-COVID revenue and you're doing a 27% margin. When you get to 100 or 110, that incremental revenue does not convert at 50%, that should convert at 70% to 80%. So that is the way our thinking has been. And on top of that, when we add not like-for-like growth, it should help accelerate the margin growth. And obviously, our operational excellence should be second to none. Our new businesses, Ginger, and we've classified them like that internally. They will also be more digital-driven. Qmin, Ama, Ginger are supposed to accelerate all our efforts, including scaling up of our brands in these new businesses, strengthening them and synergizing them under the umbrella of one company, which is our one IHCL. In terms of restructuring our portfolio, -- we will go for simplification and streamline a part of our growth. We have a lot of subsidiary companies. We have a lot of associated companies. We were able to amalgamate Taj, a Madras Flight Kitchen into our business. We have been able to make routes Corporation, which has the Ginger brand as a wholly-owned subsidiary. Similarly, we've been able to do right across the street. We were able to make LL, the company that holds the Sea Rock is a 100% subsidiary. All this takes away a lot of management time. So today, that time is available for us to keep fostering and keep strengthening our efforts for strategic decisions. Having said that, -- we will also be creating value through strategic projects. So one of the hotels, which we've always communicated, the flagship Ginger -- it's now reached the fifth floor of construction in Santa Cruz, which is on the left. And the new one will be commencing within the next 6 months in Kevadiya, which will be a Ginger and Vivanta together separated by a garden in the middle. So I think some of these strategic projects and assets, we will invest and we might sell and then lease it back and the proceeds we get, we put it as CapEx in a new project. So that same capital is circulating and we are not taking on debt or other obligations to do strategic projects in the future. That's one. But when you have the crown jewels, -- you have to maintain them, you have to polish them, and you have to make them more beautiful than they have been. And that's something which we have been doing with London. We'll be spending more money. The last 80 rooms are left in London that need to be renovated. Taj Mahal Hotel Delhi, you know what kind of a difficult renewal it for us till 3 years ago. A lot of people had written us off, but we not only secured that, but we are also coming back with the bang with the renovations. In the break, I was telling somebody, and I tell all of you also try to book a table at House of Ming in Taj Mahal Hotel Delhi for next Friday, Saturday or Sunday. If you get it, then give me the tip, I'd like to help a lot of my friends who are calling me if I can get them a table. So that's the kind of renovations, that's the kind of statements we are making, including that the Chambers in Delhi, including with the Machan, very soon, Ricks, which is another outlet there as a night club will also undergo renovation, and we will bring in something where the Wasabi used to be. So these are very iconic assets and very important for the brand. That's what makes the brand what it is today, and we'll continue to do work on it. After that, at some point, this hotel comes in. So of course, it will get the new Indian, but we're also going to revamp the Chambers here. It's going to get a full floor of suites the new presidential suite has started. The new business class lounge will be coming here. Behind the reception, there will be a new auditorium. So a whole lots of things are happening, and we are still delivering the margin and the profitability. That eye is not moving from that, but it cannot only be profitability focus because long-term sustainability of profits is only going to come when we take care of our trophy assets like this one. I think I've touched upon the reengineering reimagine, restructure in detail, so I'll skip this slide. Our key enablers -- Our key enablers will be more focused on customer-centricity than ever before. Our customer centricity was to some extent limited by touchless. Everything was touchless, which is a way of life, which we spread across brands also, but each brand should have its own. We have created a customer-centricity officer, and we have done a deep dive with the help of TCS to improve our positioning to improve our customer-centricity initiatives, also to come up another initiative would be to have best-in-class products. So all of those that I'm mentioning to you now is best-in-class. And also, we have created a new position of brand custodian for the traditional businesses -- so that is Mr. Taljinder Singh. He will be taking care of Taj Selections and Vivanta. Of course, Deepika Rao, who was the previously MD of Roots Corporation, has now joined ex com -- she'll continue to take care of Ginger and very soon, we will have somebody also help us with both Qmin and AMA, but they're relatively new brands and still very small. So that we will take that decision during the course or towards the end of this year. All this obviously, guided through the 3 core values of touch, trust, awareness, joy and the 5 values of Tata of integrity, pioneering, excellence unity and responsibility. In the spirit of One Tata that means synergizing more with the group companies, synergizing more to learn from best practices, synergizing more to get more share of their business to the extent possible. And also as a good example of being the founding member of Tata New, I very proudly say that when we were showing industry-leading on the movie, we never said industry-leading loyalty before because on our own strength, we would not have achieved it. That's why we partnered and we were the first founding member of Tata New. All other group companies joined later. So why? Because this is an important element. And of course, there are start-up issues with any kind of a start-up, and we are very pleased to inform that our revenue has already increased than what we had before from our loyalty and from our website, and this is beginning to work well. Taj will remain aspirational, so a lot of new coins have to be accumulated -- til one can buy a free stay at a Palace Hotel run by Taj. But I think it's a good beginning, and it has a very strong future. And also our collaboration will increase with Air India now. Vistara and Air Asia was always very good. Air India was good, but I hope it also becomes very good, and all 3 become excellent going forward, creating travel and a tourism ecosystem going forward. Also embracing digital, we are working on a lot of digital initiatives, including Data Lake platform within the company. And I think at the end of the day, we need an organization which enables transformation so that all the objectives, all the road map that we have created for Ahvaan 2025 can be achieved through an optimal organization, which is obviously a strong pillar, a strong fundament for success, and it's the people at the end of the day that makes the difference. It's the people using the digital that makes a difference. Digital on its own cannot make the difference. Very proudly, we announced Paathya, 22nd of March last month in Delhi. You see the Paathya water bottles on your table. We'll see green meetings coming into force. We'll see more renewable energy. You'll see use of wastewater. We will get rid of single-use plastic. These are the commitments that we have made, and we are going to honor it. I think there are 6 key pillars that best captured in a movie, which I will run it for you now. [Presentation]

That Ganga aarti that you saw is actually the backdrop of Ahvaan because something we have been doing for over 2 decades, supporting Ganga Seva Nidhi and Banaras -- and we thought it would be a good backdrop for Ahvaan 2025. Moving on, one of our initiatives also derived from Paathya, which is about skilling 100,000 people as one of the pillars. Of those 100,000, we said 25% have to be women. Also, we said we will take our average today of 17% women and workforce to 25%, something which we really feel very strongly about something which we really want to do. And we came up with a campaign, she remains a Taj, but as a guest, what are the value propositions that we're able to offer to lady travelers -- how do we take care of our employees. We have been doing a lot of initiatives for the women in the organization already in the past, but we want to take it to the next level and also as partners in the community. As an example, when you see these sarees of the lady staff, you will see that, that is coming from the Banaras weavers. And this has been something which is very good, which we have done for several decades. This has nothing to do with Aspiration 2022 or Ahvaan 2025. These strategies are more about preserving what is good, taking it to a very good level and also at the same time, stimulating the progress on the business front. This campaign, we are very proud of -- I mean it's hit more than 5 million on YouTube. If you put all social media together, it has 75 million. We have had maybe 2% -- 1% or 2% people who have complained why women, why not men, why you're differentiating by these women, why not the women from the villages, but this campaign is about Taj and Taj will have different versions of this coming over the next 12 months. This is not that you made one movie, and it's over and you launched an initiative with over. We have to work on it on a monthly basis, measure what we promise we will do, check what we have actually done and keep taking it to the next level, except for 2 models who agreed on their own or volunteered is the better word on their own to contribute to the movie without charging us anything. The rest is the real Queens, Princesses, our lady staff in our hotels, whether in Delhi or in Mumbai or in Goa. And that makes us very proud because it also helps you to strengthen a message internally that when the next versions follow, the others will follow too. So happy to share that with you. [Presentation]

Moving on this pyramid, most of you should be familiar with this. Basically, Ahvaan 2025 helps us to strengthen our position as the most iconic hospitality company of South Asia, but also the most profitable one, industry-leading in growth pipeline, margins, EBITDA, market cap, you call it, and we want to be #1 in all that, 0 debt, 33% EBITDA margin at the end of the business cycle, 300-plus hotels portfolio and a balanced portfolio by using the 3Rs, by using the enablers with the new one of the digital and Paathya coming in without leaving or going away from the base, which is the core values of both Taj and Tata System. The next part of the presentation, my colleague, Giridhar Sanjeevi, will take you through the performance drivers and more factual and more numbers coming your way. So that we have everybody satisfied by the time you leave this room. Thank you.

It's always a hard act to follow Puneet actually. But let me do my best. I think moving on to the next part of the presentation, performance drivers. What are the key areas that you are working on? Honestly, it is consistency in terms of what we have always been saying. And therefore, what you will see on the next few slides is fundamentally a reaffirmation of some of the drivers that we've always spoken about. This is a very interesting chart that we put up from time to time sort of shows the history of the company from 2015 and '16. And this is borne out of some of the conversations that we have had with some of the fund managers and investors, where I think people are used to ask us industry uptick is there, is your balance sheet is strong enough. Do you have strategic clarity in terms of what you want to do? Is your performance -- delivery of performance consistent? And is the development momentum strong enough actually. And it's quite interesting to see that when we announced our Aspiration in 2017 and '18, the next couple of years, we were all greens. The pandemic impacted us for that period. But once again, we are back to being green on all the key parameters that matter in terms of setting us up in terms of Ahvaan 2025. What are the key? Ultimately, I think there are really 3 things on the revenue side, on the cost side and on the balance sheet side. I think these are the 3 things which are the key performance drivers. On the revenue side, really speaking, we are talking about -- I think we believe we are very strong on revenues because unlike the other hospitality companies where the focus largely is on rooms and F&B, we are blessed because of the strategy has been rolled out in becoming a house of brands and some of the other initiatives we are taking that our revenue drivers are nearly about fivefold actually. Number one is the like for growth -- the like-for-like growth from the existing hotels and existing properties through the RGI improvement, which is really the drivers of room revenues actually. On the right-hand side is the new F&B concepts, which will help us to drive revenue further. On the bottom left is the growth in new businesses, which is Ginger, Qmin, and Ama. On the right-hand side is the robust growth in the hotel pipeline through management contracts, which will add to the management contract income. And at the bottom, the select hotels on the balance sheet. As we have said, we will always be 50-50, and there will be places where we will invest to build our portfolio, and that will also drive in terms of the revenue. I think, as Puneet outlined in his earlier part of the presentation, I think very clearly, if you look at industry data, very clearly, the occupancy and average room rate is expected to increase actually, starting with occupancy going up, the rate going up and therefore, the RevPAR going up. The other thing is, yes, while there are headwinds in terms of inflation and while we do not know the full impact of some of these, I think, generally, it is believed that our industry, there is some power in terms of pricing and therefore, there is some level of hedge against inflation actually. What has actually happened? While this was the industry prognostication in terms of how things will bear out? I think April has been very, very strong as we saw in the quarter ended March also. Each of these cities, all India performance was 133% of the pre-pandemic level in the month of April actually. We were always talking during the pandemic period about this year being the year where we will return back to the pre-pandemic levels. But here, we have seen in April, the growth, which is far excess of the pre-pandemic levels on a same-store basis. And on top of it, if you add the new hotels which have opened up, it is a good start in terms of what has happened across all the cities you have seen that actually. It's a good problem to have in terms of the growth in business. And what is also happening as a result and given our presence in 100 plus cities and given the leading market shares that we have in most of the key cities that we operate, we have been able to widen the RevPAR premium from the pre-pandemic level in '21, '22, in fact, it went up to 1.94%. And as part of Ahvaan, we are saying we'll go to 2, which means we are talking about increasing market share and widening the RevPAR premiums as we go forward in the next 3, 4 years. This is driven very clearly by the Tajness driven by the brands that we have, the portfolio mix that we have as well as the smart renovations that we'll carry on to continue to keep us relevant to all our customers in driving this action. In terms of the new brands, very clearly, significant progress is being made on all the 4 areas, which is Ginger, where we expect to be at 125-plus hotels by the end of this period; Ama, 500-plus villas; the 3,000-plus members in Chambers from the current levels of about 2,400; and Qmin as well in terms of its steady growth across the different cities and all the other initiatives around it, actually. So the new brands will continue to drive the business. In terms of Chamber membership fees itself, I think we have seen the membership base grow quite strongly. In fact, we had a revenue of around INR 85 crores in the current -- in the year, which just ended. And we think that with the growth in membership base to 3,000, we have a potential of about INR 150 crores in terms of Chambers memberships itself actually. Not counting the fact that these will also add to revenue potential because the members do spend in terms of rooms as well as stays as well. Moving on to management fees. I think people have always asked us how big a management fee business can be. In fact, we have seen a strong recovery to INR 231 crores for the year ended 31st March 2022. We think that with the pipeline of 60 hotels and more to come, this fee can go to about INR 400-plus crores in the next 4 years, actually. So that is what we are kind of guiding in terms of growth, actually. On the key drivers of margin expansion, I think very clearly, I think enhancing productivity is critical actually. We've always spoken. I think when the pandemic came in, we spoke in terms of cost controls and how we were able to reduce fixed costs. Now we have a different challenge where the business has surpassed the prepandemic levels. We continue to be prudent in terms of cost savings. And as we grow through the network, the focus has very clearly shifted on productivity actually because I think we will become more and more productive due to these efforts actually and given the growth in the enterprise. The productivity efforts are on 3 buckets. Number one is the hotel expenditures. The second is the staffing, which we'll continually work on. And finally, the corporate overheads where we have been able to bring down and which will service a wider set of hotels actually. In terms of the focus on hotel expenditure, there are really multiple drivers. I think whether it is consumables and perishables, whether it is payrolls, whether it is utilities, whether it is the commissions that we pay in terms to all the OTAs and others, which come in and also leveraging Tata Neu there. And all other expenses, we are working on a whole set of initiatives all the time, actually, whether it is from centralized procurement to water recycling and utilities, to shared services and payroll to sort of Tata Neu platforms in commissions and also working on continuous tracking and rationalization of all the expenses actually. So these -- we will pursue doing to ensure that cost is optimized and productivity is enhanced all the time actually. In terms of productivity, this is something that we have always spoken about, in terms of reimagining and sort of reorienting the service levels and working on manpower levels and manpower to room ratios, and these will continually work on. Of course, depending upon the levels of business and needs some site may go up and down. But overall, the productivity focus will continually be there in terms of the manning. On corporate overheads, I think very clearly, we have been able to bring down corporate overage from INR 350 crores or so pre-pandemic to around INR 240 crores last year. While absolute numbers will go up. What we're really aiming is that from an 8% corporate overhead level that we had, we want to keep it at around 5% level as we go forward in terms of business actually. So that's the focus in terms of doing it. And we will do it through a whole bunch of efforts, including redeployment, prudence and resource allocations and working as one ICL and taking a lot of synergies, actually. One example I can talk about is that post the acquisition of 100% of Ginger. I think what we have now done is that Ginger had a head office separately in Bombay. I think that head office has been given up and the different departments are getting merged with the different areas. And even as how we operate, area directors who historically looked after Taj and Vivanta will now look after the Gingers as well. So by doing that, we are actually optimizing and bringing in more synergies in terms of overheads across the P section. It all -- what this is doing in terms of the focus on the different revenue levers and focus on the productivity levers is that the shape of the P&L is changing. I think in 2 steps. One is the revenue contribution from new businesses, which is currently pre-COVID at 10%, we expect to go up to about 25%, actually, driving up in terms of what it can contribute, the management fees, the Ginger business, the Chambers income, the Qmin, the Ama's and all of that actually. And the EBITDA contribution from this business will be 22% currently from pre-COVID levels expected to go to 35% actually. So that is how we expect to change the shape of the P&L and as Puneet said in his earlier discussion as well. I think these are the high-margin businesses, which will help us to sort of ensure that we go towards the EBITDA margin guidance of 33% by the end of this cycle actually. So this is the shape of EBITDA margin that will happen. What happened in 2019, '20, what happened in 2021, which is a loss and how we are coming up and expect to reach 33%. Key summary of performance drivers; essentially, all these are coming through a variety of performance drivers, both on revenue and on margins, actually, where we expect margin improvement contributions to come both from revenue initiatives and cost initiatives, driven by all the soft factors that we discussed, which is demand greater than supply, the strong rebound in travel, the pivot to domestic where -- part of domestic we kind of discovered during the pandemic, the scalable and asset-light models, the entire hospitality ecosystem of brands that we have built actually. And on the cost side, by new ways of working, by digital adoption, economies of scale, high margin focus and continued tracking actually. So all of these should come together to help us to get to the year 1 targets of 33%. On the balance sheet side, very clearly, we completed at the end of the last year, a recapitalization of the enterprise, resulting in a zero net debt position. And what we're trying to do going forward, and this is something that we've always been doing, but gains even more focus, is a focus on free cash flows. I think with the strategy in place and profitability coming through and very careful focus on CapEx and renovations as well, we continue to focus on free cash flows, and this is important for us. And it will -- and we were in 2005, a company with about INR 1,000 crores, INR 1,500 crores on the balance sheet actually. Since 2008 to till just now, we have been a company which has always required cash. And therefore, given that context, I think a focus on free cash flow is absolutely right to make sure that we don't go back to those days and yet have money left for a rainy day, if ever required actually. Incremental capital allocation will be prudent actually. We continue to be focused on our WACs. And therefore, all our capital expenditures will ensure that they are above WAC to ensure that ROCE goes up. And monetization and simplification continues to do. In the last 4 years or so, our monetization efforts across the network has yielded us nearly INR 500 crores or so and that focus will continue actually. Simplification, we have done -- made some efforts and some successes in terms of simplification of the corporate entity structures actually. And those efforts will still continue actually and you will see hopefully more coming through in this period, actually. Focus on cash flows, people keep asking me in terms of free cash flow. So I thought as you kind of build your models, give some kind of an indication as to how this will shape up. If revenues are about 100%, EBITDA is at around 30%, 35%. You will have fixed leases, taxes, working capital, dividends, taking away maybe 10% or so. Normal CapEx and renovations will be about 5%, giving us cash flow before expansion CapEx of about 15% to 20%. And what we mean by expansion CapEx are things like demand, for instance, is one of them. And some of the new projects we're doing like Ginger Santacruz, the Kevadia, these will be the others that we will do to ensure that the free cash flow accruals will be between 5% and 10% of top line on a year-on-year basis. And in terms of monetization and simplification, I think we think that it is fair to sort of take a INR 1,000 crore target up to 25%, 26% in terms of further monetizations, and that is something that we'll work on. These consists of a mix of, what do you say, land banks, non-hotels which are not in strategic locations and some sale of some investments. And of course, wherever we kind of divest any hotel like we did in places like Visakhapatnam, we will continue to maintain the flag. And on simplification, Ginger is now a wholly-owned subsidiary. And we have -- yes, recently now, I think we have spoken about it earlier. We are putting in money into St. James' Court to bring down the debt, but through a rights issue, which allows us to consolidate shareholding because St. James' Court happens to be a joint venture with Oriental Hotels and PM Hotels. So we will continue to consolidate shareholdings as part of our efforts as well. Sea Rock is a question which all of you keep asking from time-to-time. That's an area where this remains probably the last battle that we have in terms of resolving a historical problem that we have had since 2007 or so. We are working with the government to create a landmark hotel. One thing we have always promised is that we do not intend to put in any more capital to build beyond what we have already put in. And we believe our vision is to create a 1,200-room complex between Lands End and Sea Rock, which can have a potential of INR 1,000 crores in revenue. A second iconic destination in Bombay, generating not just revenues, but employment, tax potential and everything else for the city of Bombay, actually. Diversified shareholder base; just is slide, we are very proud of this. I think it's very interesting to see that the shareholder base, which is 1.35 lakhs has gone up to about 3.42 lakhs in the last 5 years or so. It is incredible, actually. And the shareholding pattern, we're very proud of the fact that beyond our parental Tata Group at 38%, the DIIs and FIIs constitute 46% of our shareholding, and we have 16% of shareholding with the retail, and we are committed to sort of doing everything we can in terms of shareholder value maximization. And given all we are saying in Ahvaan, it will also be stakeholder value maximization, especially with the efforts around Paathya. Finally, we just conclude by saying that this is the triangle, which is a 33% EBITDA margin expansion, zero net debt, 300-plus hotel properties, 50-50 portfolio. Ahvaan 2025, fueling IHCL's re-imagination. We're open for questions. I think we'll just come here. I'm also thankful to the people who are listening to us digitally, and they can also ask questions to us actually. If there are any detailed database questions, my request is that we take it offline because I think -- otherwise, we'll be happy to answer others as well. Thank you.

[Operator Instructions]

This is Aishwarya Agrawal from Nippon India Mutual Fund. So I just want to understand about the cycle, how do you see the hotel cycle, say, next 3 to 4 years, where the demand -- I mean, I can see in this slide, I mean, one of the slides was talking about, there is a strong demand and a weaker supply and that will probably support the occupancy as well as RevPAR. So what are the 3, 4 key ingredients in that -- I mean to assume that occupancy as well as the RevPAR will keep on moving up for the next 4 years?

So number one, I said it already is the constraint in supply. The supply growth will not be as strong as demand, so which will help RevPAR to increase. First, occupancy and then rate will follow. The second part in cyclicality is the pent-up demand. For 2 years, travel has been restricted, including overseas travel. So we are noticing now as we speak, even for us in destinations like London there are a lot of people who go over to London, whether it's Wimbledon or Queen's Centenary Celebration or whatever it may be, suddenly, we see that June, there is hardly any availability. And even people very known to us, our Chambers members, very group people coming from there, it's -- we are finding it difficult because everybody has a desire, travel being fundamental needs. So that is what they're traveling. The third important factor is the pent-up demand is one is your leisure. The second is your government delegations. So you must have followed recently, Indian delegation going to Germany, Denmark, France, Scandinavian countries, right? So similarly, other delegations are coming here, whether it's Japanese or is at the end of the month, Hungarian and they are going to increase. So that should help in driving both occupancy and rate. Last not least, is the -- there are 2, 3 things which are very peculiar to Indian subcontinent. Spiritual tourism is crisis-resistant. If you have to go to Tirupati, if you have to go to Vaishno Devi, if you have to go to Banaras, if you have to go Ayodhya, all this is only on the increase. We witnessed that during the COVID, we opened a Taj in Rishikesh and very recently, another one, Anand Kashi near Rishikesh and Pilibhit House in Haridwar. I mean, we were very optimistic about these properties, that's why we signed these contracts. But that these properties, especially the last 2 that I mentioned, Pilibhit House in Haridwar or in Anand Kashi, that they would do rates that they are doing, I don't think we would have thought is possible. So spiritual tourism, medical tourism, which is becoming more and more popular as well as weddings. A lot of weddings either got postponed or delayed or others that happen, they are going to come back with a big bang. And I think because it's a part of our culture, owning a house, buying jewelry, wedding off a daughter, wedding in a family. This is just a part of our DNA. And I think these 3 together with the opening up of borders and international travel should provide a very good platform for growth, both in occupancy and rate, which will translate into RevPAR. That's on the Indian front. Globally, I think it's even stronger than here because here, we sometimes hit the rate ceiling. I know that some of the people known to me, ask me for help for booking of rooms in Paris at the time of -- recent times of Roland-Garros or other events happening. They are in luxury segment, the rates are really -- and I said it in my presentation, please go online and check you will see rates, which I have not seen in my career before. So it's not just a function of supply. I think the cyclicality is partially mitigated in the luxury segment with the people's willingness to pay and enjoy life now than to wait for 5 years or 7 years and keep collecting money. Whether this will stay forever, I don't know. But as we speak today, this is what it is and save for any pandemic, number one, save for any geopolitical trends, what my colleague, Giri just now mentioned, we are in the month of April and May trending definitely double-digit ahead of same time in '19, '20.

Just -- I mean, maybe at a later stage, if you can touch up more on the supply side because that information is an information which is not available to us, and it's very restricted and you are the dominant player. So if you have some database and some insights, which can be shareable at a later point of time that will be really helpful for the longer-term perspective.

Yes. So I don't think we would have -- we subscribe to similar data. It's 4, 5 global institutions like STR or a Horwath or HVS or a hotel, there are lots of such groups that publish their data from time to time and we use the same and it's quite credible or we use a combination of the same, but more or less, they're all closed, including JLL, CBRE. So there are a lot of such groups, I would encourage you to get that, and that's unbiased. It's not an opinion of one company rather looking at the sector.

[Operator Instructions] Mr. Vikas Ahuja.

Firstly, it's nice to see you guiding for significant margin expansion when most of the companies globally are looking to reduce margin guidance. So my question is when you were making the standard as such in that margins are going to improve by 85 basis points. Are we factoring in some kind of wage inflation or maybe any macro shock because the macro is also very volatile now? So what are the key assumptions? Have we looked those at rate resumption as well?

I think your question, if I rephrase Vikas, is what you're saying is that with your margin expansion of 800 points, have you factored in some of the macro factors like inflation. I think that's the question actually.

Of course, Vikas inflation is always in, if you're talking about a dramatic increase in inflation, that's something different. We think that is obviously the short-term volatility. But if that is the case, it will be reflected both in cost and in revenue. So I do not think that is the main -- what we have done is taken our optimized cost base, as Giri showed in terms of our room to staff ratio. Our variable cost when it comes to all the variable costs, whether it's food or raw materials or bar or any other form. And finally, we have taken a very important assumption, which also Giri mentioned in terms of corporate overhead that it will stabilize at whatever the revenue level is at around 5% versus 8% before. Now that's significant because this is like a CapEx. We always guided CapEx is 3% to 5% of the total revenue for the year on a consolidated basis. Now if you're coming at a level of which was like 8% to 10% pre-COVID level in terms of corporate overhead, that's a significant reduction versus the increase in revenue and the number of businesses and number of hotels making you far more efficient than you were ever before. So I think that is how it is reflected in margins, as we said. Number one, your operational leverage. Number 2 is your new businesses with high margins. Number 3 is your change in business model from owning and operating to more focus on management contracts because it has a higher flow-through and aggressive growth because we have all these 60 hotels, which are still to open plus whatever we will sign now and open or conversions of existing brands till 2025, which give you that additional margin that you may not have had if you were owning and operating in the older model. So I think these are the 4, 5 key factors and also not allowing new businesses to come in if they were producing less than 35% margin. I think that was also a part of the presentation. So I think all these 5 combined together should help us take care of any extraordinary inflation or any other negativity that -- or negative headwinds that come in our way. And it's a very scientifically derived number. If you come, we are happy to take you offline and through the model in our offices.

[Operator Instructions]

This is Amit Agarwal this side. Thanks for the nice presentation. And I note that this time, there's a lot more focus on the balance sheet restructuring. My question to you is while you've given some kind of a guidance on margin expansion for FY '25, with the balance sheet restructuring and margin expansion, any kind of a guidance or thought on the return ratios like ROCE, ROE? That would be helpful.

Okay. I can take this question. I think we have deliberately -- I mean, we have always stated that our focus on ROCE is something that we are dialing up actually. I think if I look at our balance sheet, the balance sheet is really in 2 parts. One part of the balance sheet which we say domestic auto assets always gives us very high margins, actually. That's very clear. There are a couple of areas where -- which drags down the ROCE example, the Sea Rock investment, which currently doesn't turn anything. International assets, we've been working on in terms of improving profitability. But beyond it, I think it is the monetization and simplification, which is going to help in terms of taking us to the direction actually. The only reason we're not giving a specific direction is that the monetization -- I mean, we have had -- one of the things we always say, right from 2017, this -- the whole management team has had a series of things to do, and we have been addressing one by one, actually. And I think these monetizations simplification, like if you take merger of one of our listed entities into IHCL, so that we eliminate one listed entity. I mean, it's something that we've always said we will try and do, but I think there are partners involved in all that. And the effort is kind of longer term in terms of doing it actually. That's the only reason that we are not guiding towards a specific ROCE target. Except to say that we had a slide on incremental capital allocation because ultimately, from an investor's perspective, what is historical on the balance sheet will only get resolved in a certain way. But in terms of incremental capital investment as long as we are able to make sure that the incremental capital is deployed in a fashion which is beyond the cost of capital, then the ROCEs will keep going up actually. So I think really 3 parts. One is existing total assets continue to be high ROCE. Second is incremental investment will be accretive on ROCEs. And number 3 is that we will have to simplify and monetize to build it. And there, the time horizon is a little unclear because of the nature of the work, we are clearly having a number of conversations, actually.

[Operator Instructions]

This is Achal from HSBC. I have a couple of questions, if I may. So first of all, you have discussed your EBITDA margin, but you have not given any guidance or any thoughts around the top line. How do you see the top line growing over the next few years, including you've given, of course, you have given some bit of expectations in terms of INR 1,000 crores plus revenue expectation from Sea Rock alone. So what sort of revenue targets you are looking at for the next couple of years? And have you built in some part of synergies from Tata Group's Aviation business and plus Tata Neu. So you said you're the first one. So have you started discussing all other things like the aviation revenue coming through to your hotel in the form of the crew stay and all that sort of thing? So that's my first question. Secondly, I also wanted to ask you about -- so you -- Mr. Chhatwal has talked about a lot in terms of the structural changes, the customer behavior. But are we really sure that these are going to stay back because many of things are actually reversing. So now how confident are we that some of these will stay and not reverse to -- back to square one?

Yes. So I'll answer some of it, and then I will request Puneet to build on it. See, as far as revenue, see, I think one of the things I began with by saying that as far is revenue is concerned, we are clearly blessed with a number of different levers, actually. So one is the traditional, what do you say, rooms and F&B growth, that is one part of it. Second is the new business growth through things like management fees, Chambers, with Ginger, Ama and all that. And you're absolutely right, these factors which are coming in, in terms of Tata Neu, airlines and all, we'll add on actually. So if you take one by one, actually. So if I take -- we have already guided to what Chambers and management fees can be actually so which are significant. We said INR 400 crores in terms of Chambers, management fees, INR 150 crores in terms of Chambers. We have said Qmin and Ama are already doing good levels of top line. Ama, Qmin last year did about INR 66 crores of top line. I think with about INR 48 crores of pure commercial top line, actually, that's steadily growing. Ama is already -- its asset-light model, it's POPs actually. Now if you look at Ginger; Ginger, we already have got last year, we ended the year with about INR 178 crores in the middle of a pandemic actually. Even if I even assume a stable year last year, it would have been, say, INR 220 crores, INR 225 crores, and this is likely to grow with the new businesses. Take this Ginger Santacruz itself, one single hotel, what was INR 178 crores for March 31, '22. One single hotel in Santa Cruz can contribute about INR 100 crores to top line actually. So these revenue drivers are nevertheless there. On Tata Neu, our loyalty program, pre-pandemic, used to contribute about INR 1,000 crores out of INR 8,000 crore enterprise revenue actually, which is roughly, what, about one-eighth, 1.5% actually. And I think what we have guided here is that this can go up to 30% is what we have said actually, 30% of whatever of the revenues as they are going up actually. So all these factors have definitely been kind of baked in as we talk of the ambitions on revenue actually. So that is the first question. Your second question was on -- sorry. Reversal in trends, you want to take that? I'm happy to give you.

No, I want to first take the one on the lighter note, Achal. If we tell you the revenue, if we tell you the margin and tell you the year, then I've told you everything for the next 5 years. We have fixed the stock price. I think you people are very experienced to figure out if we are saying that we are looking at a double-digit growth, then Giri just gave you the number which you have from the past from '19, '20. Now how much that double digit is, I'm not saying 99%, but it's definitely north of 10%. So that is important. I think if it keeps going this way, you will start seeing a trend at the end of Q1 results when we announce those and then further at Q2 because Q3 and Q4 are always stronger than Q1 and Q2. It's just the way business has always worked for us as a company and -- but also for the Indian sub-continent. Q3 is the strongest, Q4 is the second strongest. Q1 is number 3 and Q2 is number 4. This time, there might be a bit of change that Q1 and Q2 become very strong because of the pent-up demand, but it's still very difficult to surpass Q3 because it has Christmas, it has New Year, it has Diwali, it has all those wedding nights, the wedding dates, so it's very strong. In terms of trends, I would say your words and God's ears if some of those get reversed, especially the digital meetings, then we will have fuller halls here. And we have a lot of banqueting space. It is getting reversed. I fully agree with you. But some of those new trends that we saw are here to stay because they are a boost to our industry. People driving on holidays in the amount that they are doing now was not happening before. Even now when things have opened up, a lot of people are reluctant to fly firstly because the ticket sales -- the ticket prices have gone through the roof. So if you can drive from Delhi to let's say Rishikesh, you don't want to fly to Dehradun then drive down to Rishikesh. You might as well drive -- make a stop, maybe one night in Haridwar, one in Rishikesh and then go further up to Missouri or -- so these kind of things were not happening in that magnitude as they're happening now. I think that trend will stay. It will not be reversed.

Sorry, you did not touch upon the -- your cooperation with Tata Group on the Aviation side. Have you started discussing something on the aviation -- the cooperation with the Aviation business?

See, I think I mentioned in my presentation that our cooperation with AirAsia and Vistara has been in place for some time, including with Air India was good. We are hoping it moves to very good and all 3 together move to excellent. Why? Because we are in the same business. So we were already supplying a lot of meals to Air India, especially from our Delhi and Mumbai station. So that is one hosting cabin crew is another one. But you also don't want to displace high paying business with low paying crews. It depends in which market, what kind of customers you want in which hotel. I mean in Lands End, if you get too much of crew or in Taj Mahal Palace Colaba, it's not a right strategy. But in Vivanta in Navi Mumbai, if you get crew, it's a good thing. If in a small amount of crew you have in Taj Santacruz or a few crews when we open Ginger in Santacruz -- that is -- of course, that is a collaboration we will be working on. Flight catering means is something we are working on. Collaborating in other forms of cross-training, cross-selling we've started work, but Air India is still very new. Please give it another 6 months or so. It's a new business. It has to settle down. But Vistara and AirAsia, we are in that for the last -- with Vistara, I think already 4-plus years, it's a very strong partnership.

Sorry, the last one, I promise I'll stop here. So you have not mentioned anything on GIC platform. Is it still alive or it's gone? So if you could please talk about that?

Normally, we would -- but we have not mentioned because everybody asked when is the next first deal happening. So I think what we have done is we've renewed as 2 years was a washout. We have renewed that platform's partnership for the next 2 years. And we are quite hopeful of getting one or the other deal done this year as the gap between the seller's expectation of a selling price and a buyer's expectation of what he is willing to pay is narrowed down significantly.

This is Nihal Jham here from Edelweiss. Can I proceed in? So a couple of questions and best wishes for achieving the targets ahead. One is that if I look at the kind of cash flows, you'll make plus INR 1,000 crores from non-core that you're targeting, there will be enough cash even left for inorganic opportunities, as you mentioned. So there, what is the thought in terms of opportunities that you're looking at? And the second question was that while you've given a margin guidance of 33% for the entire business, I would believe that the standalone Ginger and the international operations are at very different stages in terms of the journey. And if it's possible to bifurcate the individual targets for those also.

I think second one, Nihal, you will have to take it offline with our office and people. We have those numbers available. Of course, each brand is -- each of these brands is not 120 years old like Taj is. So they're in their different stages of life cycle, and they will mature as we move forward. On the other question you had was on -- what was that? The first one? Inorganic growth. I mean, we have said we want to be industry-leading in portfolio growth. We want to be industry-leading in openings. We want to be industry-leading in signings. So if something comes up, it's a part of our strategy. Profitable growth of the portfolio is a core part of our strategy. We will not do anything and everything and again disrupt our brands. We want to have pure brands in their respective segments. And if something comes in, which is a good fit or a good opportunity to even create a new brand, we will look at it. And we look at it very seriously. And that's what the free cash flows will help us do instead of taking on debt.

Just a follow-up. So that would mainly be in India or you could look at international opportunities also?

No, we are not investing into assets internationally. Our philosophy, as we have communicated consistently for 4 years, will stay or in the fourth Capital Market Day, we are not investing outside of India as IHCL. If the investment comes from somewhere else, and we are managing or doing some form of a sliver participation, not in ownership, but in some form of giving a minimum guarantee or going for an operating lease, we will consider. And internationally, we will, to the extent possible, unless it's a very India-driven market, we will only focus on Taj. We are not going with a Ginger and a Vivanta and whatever else with the cumin outside of India. That's India-centric.

[Operator Instructions]

Sir, 2 things on the balance sheet front. You clearly mentioned that new CapEx is going to be ROCE accretive. And of course, you're seeing the Ginger Santacruz and a couple of other investments in Gujarat. So why consider a sale and leaseback essentially if all of these are going to be adding ROCE to balance sheet?

Yes. No, I think it is just -- I mean, the way we looked at Ginger Santacruz. I mean, we don't have to do sale and leaseback or sale and manage-back for everything. I think it's a great opportunity. It's an asset which has been there free for us actually and probably costing the land value itself could be INR 200 crores, INR 250 crores actually; building a property, which is going to cost us another INR 200 crores. It's one example of smart, what do you say, asset management, where on an existing valuable asset, which is incrementally spending only INR 200-plus-crores and an opportunity to sort of monetize and lease back or manage back. And that money can then be perhaps recycled into something else actually. I think that's what we are thinking actually.

Why not, if I answer in a more provocative way, why not sell 50% of it, which was never monetized from only leasing back 50% -- so you create margin both in the OpCo and the PropCo.

And sir, secondly, on the cycle. You already mentioned that you're trending at double-digit growth compared to 2019, 2020 levels. In terms of sustainability of that going forward, particularly in the large markets like Bombay, Delhi, Bangalore, where a bulk of your room inventory is.

I remain optimistic about the growth on the like-for-like and it will be assisted on the not like-for-like. If we keep getting double-digit growth, it is very good. If we get higher double digit, then it's even better. There is nothing that we know which would seem to suggest us or anybody in the industry that would seem to suggest that it is going to fall below as we stand today. Tomorrow, anything can happen that we don't know. But as we speak today, there is nothing that suggests since I think STR did that survey that in India, including in key markets, that curve was exceeded around 14th or 15th of April. By end of March until that day, we had reached '19/'20 level. And then it just went up after that, of course, assisted by IPL, which just finishes. We don't know what impact the end of IPL will have because they've occupied a lot of rooms. It depends who you speak to. When I speak to our people who had taken on IPL teams, they said, oh, we should not have taken. We could have sold the rooms much more expensive. When they go away, they might say, well, sir, we had IPL before we could charge higher. So it's just a part of this business. All in all, as the same Latin, Summa Summarum, you can say that it is higher, it is healthy. It's very welcomed by us, by the industry at large because we have seen very bad days. So we don't even want to go there that it will go down. We won't only see how much higher at least for the moment.

And we all look forward to that. Just the last one on Sea Rock since you all have given some targets this time around, any target on the development timeline and once -- since there's not going to be entirely on balance sheet, what happens to the land value, which is on balance sheet once the development gets completed?

No. When you say land value, the land value is fine. There's no -- in fact, we believe that once all the approvals come in, this is going to be a very valuable piece of land actually. And what we are working on is to accelerate those actually. And as we have always stated, we won't put in incremental investment. And hence, we are open to everything on Sea Rock, which means not just a developer coming into construct, but even open to somebody taking some of our shareholding as well actually. So it is something the chapter has to unfold. I mean our intentions -- I mean, our intent is very clear. Our work is also clear. Unfortunately, this is an area where things take time. And I think as Puneet always says, we believe that this is probably a great movement in terms of the rapport that we have with the government here to be able to sort of fast track it as much as we can actually. Is there any question in the online? I mean I'm conscious there are a few questions you have taken here.

Mr. Vikas Ahuja with another question.

Vikas, can we come back to you, Vikas? I think can we take some questions from the audience, please?

This is Niket here from Motilal Oswal Mutual Fund. I just had 2 questions. One is in the presentation you did highlight about restructuring stroke monetization. Just wanted to get your sense on your strategy on monetization of some of your international assets, which has been a bit of a drag for a longer period of time.

So it's an interesting question. Firstly, I don't know where this information comes from. We don't have any asset to monetize, which has been a drag on us. We only have one asset, which has been really loss-making, but it's very iconic that's in New York, but we don't own it. It's a long-term leasehold. So the question of monetizing on that never arose. There's another smaller one in San Francisco, which pre-COVID was profitable, profitable to the net level. And the rest Lusaka is a management contract. Cape Town, we acquired 100% shareholding. We have paid down 100% of the debt, no. We are waiting for some RBI approval and when it should be done. And then Dubai is management contracts. Maldives is a winner of the COVID. It was not a problem. Sri Lanka the moment is a challenge, but we don't own those assets 100%. We used to own some international assets like we had Boston, which was unfortunately sold before I think both of us joined or committed -- the sale was committed before we both joined, which was a crown jewel. And it was not profit-making. That's true. We had an asset in Sydney, which we sold, which was not profit-making, which is also true. But this is long time ago. But I always joke. I don't know who has inculcated this very deep thought.

No, my question was on the return. Actually, I was trying to understand that as some drag on P&L from international business.

It's not. London is highly profitable and how many customers use us because we are in London and New York. If all other brands coming from India were also in London and New York, I don't think we would get so much of traction. So -- I'm sorry, but every time, every quarter, every Capital Market Day, the same question comes up, and I think we should -- next time, Giri and I, we will put up a slide on all of our international business. Partially, we did that. We had that discussion. I will say it openly out there. Partially, this comes up because of the way we are structured, and we show those things, which is more accounting and tax-driven versus actual operations. So there is a challenge on that front. But if we were to put all international businesses together, it's not a negative. It's a positive, pre-COVID and as we speak today. Is that fair?

No, that's right. That's right. I think if you're asking, will we monitor -- absolutely, I think he's right in terms of saying that the assets which drag are the lease property in New York, which we'll not monetize. But if you ask me, will we monetize any of the others? That is something that we have always spoken about as options actually. At what point of time we will kind of do it is a decision which we'll have to take actually.

And any more restructuring, which is still left, whatever you've already done in terms of acquisition, acquiring 100% and making 100% on subsidiary? Is there anything still left within the entire?

No, St. James' Court will continue, I think, because we have 54% now. I think now we will infuse more equity to reduce debt by increasing shareholding. And that process will continue. So that's number one. Number 2 is, we've always been transparent in terms of talking about some of our other entities in the group, some of which may be listed in terms of simplification. There, conversations have been going on for a long time. And let's see. I think what we see is, hopefully, gradual towing of positions because I think they have seen the partners in many of these companies have seen IHCL growth. And there are debt in some of these companies. So hopefully, during this period, Ahvaan, we will be able to hold back at least one of them, if not more than that. So that continues to be referred. And as we've also spoken in the past, internationally, maybe there's always an opportunity in a Dutch holding company to sort of find a partner, which can de-risk India, at the same time, create some capital for growth where possible and even bring back some money into India. I think those options we'll continue to do. I mean, as I always say that we have a long list of things to do actually. And I think we have nothing as whatever you are asking, none of it is of our things to do checklist actually. I think we continually work on all of these. And we will -- and hopefully, we will announce it as and when appropriate, whenever we have concrete things to communicate actually.

Naysar Parekh from [ Native Capital ]. My question is on the growth of the target that we have to sign additional 60, 70 hotels in the next 3 years. Given that we are in a supply-constrained market, and we're not planning to set up our own new hotels to the same degree, how do you see the growth coming from a combination of -- is it new properties getting developed or are you seeing conversion of non-branded, non-chain hotels to branded chain hotels? How do you see that split?

A part of the question you answered yourself, so non-branded to branded is definitely one part of it. We have 60 hotels in the pipeline in various stages of development, which will open. If we continue signing on an average 15 to 20 per annum, then we definitely achieved that 300 plus with the 3-plus years to go. So I think that is what we have done in the past, also with the change in focus. Some of these properties that we are talking about, as we said, the quantum of growth that will come from a brand like Ginger is far higher than it would come from Taj. So we are not saying that we'll be now signing 60 Taj branded properties. So Vivanta, Ginger, there is a lot of need for hotel rooms in India. The Tier 3, Tier 4 cities are performing very, very well. And each of those cities, each of the district capital, each of the state capital can have a Ginger and some of the important capitals can have multiple Gingers. So like in Delhi NCR or in Mumbai, we are in Andheri Teli Gali, we are in Andheri Mahakali. We're going to open in Koregaon. We are building Santacruz. So you could do maybe 10, 15 Ginger properties in Mumbai without anybody feeling any impact of it. So I think, as I said, the growth follows a scientific method, which has to be artistically executed. The sign says, by brand, by geography and by contract type. These are the 3 things. If you balance all these 3, the result will be there.

And my second question is on management contracts. Given 75% of the pipeline is through that and players, some of the international brands like Radisson, Marriott are obviously been leaders in that space, and they arguably maybe command a larger international brand than ours. So in that, when we go to sign these contracts, what kind of competition do we face from the likes of Marriott and Radisson. And going forward, do we see pressure on the management fee percentage that we are able to charge versus some of these international brands?

First, I will answer it on a lighter note, so that we wake up the audience. See they are not larger. They were larger. We had a chart but who was the largest number of hotels and number of destinations. That's number one. Number 2, you are talking to a person who spent 15 years as Global Head of Radisson Development. So I know exactly what we do, and I've only worked in this industry for 40 years. We don't compromise on fees with our mainstream brand. We are not doing management contracts to the extent we were doing before with Ginger. With Taj, we don't need to because discount on fees because we are the nation's strongest brand or among the strongest brands and very, very strong globally. And within India, definitely, the brand recall of Taj is the strongest, right? And it is going to stay that way. Now, the game comes between Vivanta and selections, and we don't have to do everything, but some things all the brands and all the hospitality companies do. That is, again, not driven by a scientific business model. Sometimes you have a relationship. Now, we have tied up with Ambuja Neotia who are doing 6 hotels with us. Now if somebody is doing 6 hotels, I can't charge them the same fee level as if it is for one. There has to be certain performance clauses, there have to be certain kind of discount because the time in servicing that contract is the same because it's still that one meeting with the owner is that one travel of his to Mumbai or ours to Calcutta. So there is some kind of -- you cannot cast it in stone. This is our fee structure, that's what it is. So it also depends on which owner, which location, how important it is for you to get the hotel now is doing -- for us a wonderful hotel in Darjeeling, a couple in -- or 3 in Calcutta, one which will open next year in Sikkim. And previously, we did all these hotels in a partnership as a promoter in listed entities. So the comparison itself is completely changed. And it's normal, it's the evolution of the brand, it's the evolution of the company, but it's also the evolution of business models. When we did those partnerships and from promoterships, the whole philosophy of management contract did not exist in the country, right? So all this is in evolution. All these great international brands are good because they help us to become a better competitor. They help the industry, we all grow together, and there is a space for all. And it's not us versus them, them versus us. Of course, there will be some form of competition. But as long as it is healthy, it's good for the industry. It's good for you as the consumer, it's good for creation of jobs. It's good for everyone. And that's the philosophy we have followed and will continue to follow.

This is Adhidev here from ICICI Securities. Sir, just mention on the EBITDA margin guidance, which you have given of 33% for the longer term so if you look at just our Q3 numbers, we achieved close to 30% EBITDA margin and our revenues are still significantly below the pre-COVID levels. So if -- what you are alluding the double-digit sort of growth which you may do this year itself in FY '23. So don't you think that this number would be achievable in this year itself, considering the cost optimization efforts? Just trying to reconcile the numbers.

We will have a separate party for you. There is a -- if there is a pent-up demand, there is a pent-up expenditure, there is a pent-up cost, everything is there. There's a pent-up salary increases. Of course, we would try to do it already this year and change the guidance of Ahvaan 2025. That would be the most ideal scenario, right? For you, for us, we will all be very rich in this industry. But there are things that happen that we don't know today. Something always keeps happening in the world. And there is something that one or 2 months in a year that somehow push you back and then you come back up again. So like having a smooth ride, nothing coming, no traffic, no headwind. You're the only one driving -- it's not -- up till now, it's not happened. I've never seen that at least in this business.

Sir, and the second question is on the international business. So when do we see some sort of, let's say, recovery on the revenue or on the EBITDA front over there?

So now you contradicted yourself -- just now you said 33% you will achieve. The next question says, when will you see recovery.

Sir, this is without international business contributing.

Correct, because in India business, we already achieved it. It comes down because these kind of margins because of a different labor cost structure are not possible in European or Western context. So therefore, the more it comes back the business, the higher will be our margin. Then your first statement will come true that if South Africa, if Lusaka, if Sri Lanka all start firing on all cylinders, then of course, it will go. But as I said, there is always something happening in one part of the world, which is beyond any management's reasonable control.

Sumant here from Motilal. So my question for Sea Rock. So we are going to add 700 rooms and assuming INR 2 crores per room, the CapEx is likely to be INR 1,400 crores. And as per our Annual Report, INR 1,200 crores to INR 1,400 crores land value. So assuming that, are we going to dilute 45% to 50% stake in Sea Rock?

I think given our commitment not to kind of put incremental capital at this as we speak. I think we are open to -- we are saying fundamentally that we'll get a developer to construct actually. Now, if we develop a -- I mean while we have not done those calculations but yes, if it means diluting, I think we will be open to that. So let's see how it goes actually.

The question for the pent-up demand side, we are seeing a pent-up demand in Leisure segment also currently in Business segment. And assuming in see the pent-up demand is not going to be there in FY '24. So what's your view on the moderation in growth in FY '24 when the outbound is also there, then you have the wedding -- we have seen a pent-up demand from wedding side. We have seen a delegate, then we have leisure-dependent up demand. So how -- what is your view on moderation in the growth FY '24?

Sumant, I think if one thing goes away, something else comes in, I think when you're saying the pent-up in leisure and pent up in other demand and people starting to travel abroad, if that is going away, then international is also coming back. So if we get back that 15% contribution from the international, it should compensate. And more importantly, our growth of not like-for-like portfolio should help us sail through should one or the other factor become negative. That's what we have been doing for the last several quarters.

This is Karan Khanna from AMBIT Capital. So my first question was on -- you've had Aspiration 2022. And like you mentioned, you've achieved almost 80% of what you were targeting to achieve. Now with Ahvaan 2025, how are you looking at the gaps that you were not able to plug in, in the Aspiration 2022 strategy? That's question number one. Second, as you mentioned, the incremental capital deployment and the incremental management bandwidth is going to be more towards newer brands and newer revenues. So what kind of a team or internally, how are you working towards building those new revenues getting you to that 33% EBITDA margin guidance by FY '25? That's question number 2. And finally, third, we've seen the company over the last decade and a half, perhaps the ROCEs have still been in single digits. So any conscious reason why you focus on margins versus ROCE, trying to optimize shareholder returns by optimizing the ROCE profile of the company? That's question number 3.

Yes. I think the third one we answered sometime back in terms of how we think ROCEs will go up. The first one was -- could you just repeat the first one?

First one, what were the gaps in Aspiration 2022 that you're trying to plug in?

I think what -- it's not the -- in fact, I think we only got sharper because what was Aspiration '22. It was around growth. We said 15 contracts a year. We've already sure that we have done 100 contracts a year. That's number one. Number 2, we said margin expansion, which we achieved. And I think what really helped us in aspiration was that we were ahead of the game because we were already talking of an 8% margin expansion, and we're focusing on both revenue and cost levers pre-reset and reset actually allowed us to get even more sharper in terms of driving not just the revenue levers, but also the cost levers, actually. So I don't think there was any major gaps in terms of the -- what couldn't happen as we discussed was, could we have acquired assets in terms of distressed assets? I mean, valuations kind of were changing. So therefore, we could not do that. I don't think they were in.

There was one more that we did not achieve 50-50 in a balanced portfolio. We are at like a 46-54. If there was a bit more time and we calculate it, then that would have happened also. And we fell short of the 800 basis points by 0.6%. It was, I think, 24.5% or 24.6% -- either 24.4% or 24.6% was the EBITDA margin versus 25%. So it was -- that's why we said in humility, we said 80%, but more or less, we had achieved what we had set out to achieve. On your return on capital versus EBITDA margin, Giri said that we already answered, but I'll give you one thing, which is our key learning from the industry. You have to have higher margin so that when the next crisis comes and you fall, then you have different levers on a fee-based business on assets that you own so that the fall is not so steep that you're again getting into that debt cycle. So that's why I think -- and also historically, the industry has not done the kind of margins it could have done with the exception of a few cities and few assets. So I think also in getting the entire company, the management, the employees, everybody, associates to focus that margins are important. It's not just a service to the company, but also service to the industry. And there was a third question you had, which.

The second question on incremental capital and management bandwidth getting deployed more towards newer brands.

We have invested heavily and are continuing to do so. Our Head of HR is here. And then once we break -- Gaurav Pokhariyal is on that table, he will take you through the kind of skilling that we are doing, the kind of scholarships we have created, sending people abroad, we are starting something new East-West exchange, people from Dubai coming here, from us going to Dubai. There is a lot of -- within our own group, we have a lot of opportunities to learn and execute. And this is something we have been doing not in an accelerated fashion like we're doing now. We've increased our spend on learning and development and all the talent that you see today that was driving Ginger or the new brands like Qmin or Ama, they're all homegrown. And actually, Giri and I are the last entrants on the top ex-comp of almost 5 years each. He's 5, I'm getting close to 5. Everybody else has grown from within the company. So it's a very thorough knowledge, understanding, sense of belonging, loyalty, awareness, value system, everything is there. And so we are giving chances to people from within first. And if need be, we have recently done in one or the other cases, we've got number 2 in this hotel from outside. We got the number 1 in Taj Dubai from outside. We are looking at some more talent, especially in digital. We got from TCS, our Head of Digital. So we sometimes don't even have to go outside the group. We have just now a number 2 of Gaurav in HR, who has also come in from Group HR. We start a Group HR to us as one of the top leadership under him. There are 3 other -- 3 in all, and this person is one of them. So I think there is a lot of opportunity that the group offers not just in terms of Tata Digital or some -- this kind of help in airlines, but it is also talent. There is a lot of talent available within the group that we can tap into. And if we need be, if we need hoteliers, I can tell you something without now being humble. There are a lot of people who had left us 7 years ago, 8 years ago, who want to come back and at lunchtime, Gaurav told me yesterday, somebody sent a Tweet that it's not fair that people who left Taj are not allowed to come back that easily. So that is -- I think what he said to me was, and he can show you that Tweet is they should be allowed to rectify their mistakes. So I think there is a lot of attraction for us as employers and as a brand. And yes, talent is very important. And the people of the right talent will keep forging ahead. So we are very much aware of it. But what also is very satisfying is to help people provide that growth from within the company.

This is Chirag from Catamaran. The question is linked to the growth moderation question, which was asked earlier. You said that the RevPAR growth is almost double digits for the pre-COVID level. If you could break down it into segments like business, leisure, like-for-like for Mice events, it will help us better appreciate where the levers are left for growth and where it could capital?

Chirag, good question, but we can take that offline one of these days. I think it's very clear that the key winners are leisure, as Sumant also said, is very high. In certain leisure destinations, we went to as much as 1.5x or 1.6x, so it sold like never before. So that's one. Business got back to like 85% now in April and May. I always said that in all the calls, all the interviews, the day for us, Delhi, Mumbai, Bangalore, who come back to pre-COVID level, we would be like doing very well on the top line. That happened because of the delegations, the government delegations, but also because of the IPL. Now, we have to see what happens post IPL as the teams begin to check out. And when it comes to Mice, I don't think it's even close to 80% of what it used to be, but it's beginning to take in. There are destinations like Goa. We opened the Taj Resort and Convention Center. 10 days ago, we had the Tata Group conference here with almost 400 people, 100 CEOs. So it was a very successful event, and it's very difficult to find a place in that property for an event, if you want to do. You can make those calls and check yourself. But we also need the big events at the Taj Palace in Delhi at the Lands End. They are coming. It has started, but it has not reached 100% of the pre-COVID, functions have, weddings have those kind of social events have. They are firing on all cylinders. But meetings are also dependent, sometimes in companies a lot of international travel. And it's not the right time to judge because even if somebody wanted to do when they hear that the temperature in Delhi might hit 50 degrees, comes to cancellation. Instead of a booking, you get a cancelation. It has nothing to do with COVID. It's just the heat. Now, I hear is like people traveling from Delhi to Mumbai or Mumbai to Delhi are delayed because it's raining so heavily. So there is a little bit of a turbulence but it happens every year. It has nothing to do with COVID, but that's the thing. It's not a real good time to judge the Mice in India in the months of May, June, July, it's not a good period. So that you will have to wait but the rest, I think I gave you already. If you want exact figures, you'll have to check with our team in the office. Thank you, everyone. Thank you, everyone, for those who joined virtually. Thank you, everyone, who are present in the room. Thank you for your attention. Thank you for your support, and thank you for coming here. I would just like to close like we have done over the last 5 years. We just say these 2 words, we promise, we deliver. Thank you. Thank you.